Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Virage on April 16, 2004, 02:28:23 PM
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Did they have/use ATG Rockets or only ATA?
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ATG
24 × 2.16 in (55 mm) R4/M rockets
14 × 220 lb (100 kg) RBS B/F21 rocket bombs
3 × 9.84 in (280 mm) WGr.28 rockets in clusters of 2
Panzerblitz anti-tank rockets in 2.16, 3.07 and 5.12 in (55, 78 and 130 mm) calibers
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I still don't quite see how the rockets can do much damage vs. tanks.
They aren't moving that fast, they don't have much explosives...
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Normal artillery rounds have to have "thick" skins because the round has to retain structural integrity when it is suddenly propelled down the muzzle. Rocket munitions do not suffer from this requirement and thus contain a lot more explosive for a given size. This is probably the answer.
Hooligan
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In a book I am reading a FW 190 pilot, Hauptman Erhard Jähnert Staffelkäpitan of 2./Schlachtgeschwader 3, recounts his 599th mission flying a FW 190F-8 over of the Kurland Bridgehead:
On 16 February 1945, I attacked enemy armor in my Focke Wolf 190. It had already gotten quite close to our main line of resistance in foggy weather about 10 kilometers southeast of Tukkum.
Three of my comrades closed up with me when I designated the target. We dove on the group of armor and fired our rockets. I was fortunate enough to knock out three enemy tanks in three passes. Three more were crippled by my comrades. Since I expended my rockets, I tried to destroy the remaining tanks, which had already turned back, with my on-board weapons. In the process my aircraft took one or two hits in the lubrication system and also in the compass connections.
Orientation was no longer possible. Vision forward was prevented by the oil film that built up on the front windshield. The cockpit canopy was also stuck, so I sat in my aircraft as if I were in a coffin.
When the engine oil ran out and the engine temperature rose, I had to make an emergency landing. I could only see to the rear, so, with a “look back” I landed on an open field near an abandoned artillery position about 30 meters from a farmstead and 80 meters from a high-tension electric line.
I am certain that my landing rates as a most extraordinary piece of good luck in aviation.
I had neither pistol nor identification with me. When I saw several soldiers in camouflage parkas draw near I grabbed the flare pistol from the cockpit and waited.
Again my luck held. They were Latvians from one of the two Latvian Waffen-SS divisions. They took me to their battalion command post.
I was well received in the grenadiers’ bunker and fed. Soon I was driven back to my airfield.
Incidentally, Erhard Jähnert received the knights cross on 18 May 1943 as a Leutnant flying stukas while attached to Stukageschwader 4.
Later as Staffelkäpitan of 9./Stukageschwader 2, he took part in that squadrons greatest success when it sank 3 soviet destroyers in the Black Sea south of the Crimea.
He was later removed from combat duty and assigned as an instructor. In the fall of 1944 at his own personal request he was transferred to the Kurland Bridgehead and made Staffelkäpitan of 2./Schlachtgeschwader 3.
He destroyed 25 Soviet tanks while flying the FW 190F-8 over Kurland. On the day of surrender he took what passengers he could and flew out of Kurland and landed at Flensburg. He was put up for the oak leaves but in the hectic days just prior to German capitulation the award never went through.
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Thnx Batz.
Did the 110 carry them too? Or just the 190f8?
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Think just the 190 did.. the 110 wasn't ever configured for anti-tank work as far as I know.
Maybe we'll actually get some of those rockets in AH2. It'd be nice.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Maybe we'll actually get some of those rockets in AH2. It'd be nice.
Yes it would. Here's hoping.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Think just the 190 did.. the 110 wasn't ever configured for anti-tank work as far as I know.
Maybe we'll actually get some of those rockets in AH2. It'd be nice.
What kind of rockets was he firing?
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Panzerblitz 2's.
Jähnert's staffel never used bombs against armor. When loaded with bombs they attacked troop concentrations. They strafed trains and soft vehicles and used rockets on armored vehicles. Incidentally strafing runs against tanks were enough to cause the Soviet tankers to abandon an attack and look for cover.
Another account tells of an attack on 25 Dec '44 while flying recce Jähnert spotted a group of 12 T-34s staging just behind the front.
Jähnert radioed to his staffel mates and he was joined by 2 other 190F-8s (one flown by Oberfeldwebel Bannedikt). Jähnert initiated the attack using his rockets and knocked out 3 of them. The other F-8s attacked and claimed 4 more tanks knocked out.
Later that day the German ground forces attacked in the same area and found 7 damage T-34s right where Jähnert reported them. 1 was completely burned out 2 were heavily damaged and beyond repair. 3 were quickly repaired and used by the Germans. The last 2 were out of commission for several days.
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Well, as mentioned there were several ATG rockets with AT work appearing late in the war. Rather more common was the use of the Bordrakete 21cm (BR 21 or WrGr 21), adopted from the Army`s five barreled Nebelwerfer, and containing a serious sized warhead with a GP fragmantation warhead. Fighters carried a pair, larger craft : 4 to 6 of these. In effect, it meant that a 4-plane fighter Schwarm could effectiely match the broadside of a typical ww2 heavy cruiser..
But generally speaking, the LW preferred anti-tank/anti personell cluster bombs over rockets, covering a rather large area with hundreds of small sized (2-10kg) fragmentation or AT bomblets with cumulative warhead - the latter could pierce up to 100mm of armor, and since it usually hit the rather thin top armor of tanks, it was very effective. Such bombs could be mounted on just about any LW plane, fighters and bombers alike.
It made quite some sense given the relative ineffectiveness of ww2 unguided rockets - most of them carried only fragmentation warhead, and were ineffective vs. armor even in the unlikely case of scoring a direct hit, due to their great inaccuracy.
Speaking of rockets, I would like to learn about RAF aerial rockets of ww2 ! I have plenty of info on Soviet, US, and German, but could not find the details and types of those used by the RAF, ie. Typhoons etc.
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Well Ise there was 2 basic models. One that used a 6" shell(naval) as the warhead(HE) and the other had an anti-personnel warhead.
They were also used from ground launchers, the Land Mattress, with 30(late) or 32(early) 'barrels'.
The Land Mattress rocket was 1.77m long, weight 30.5kg, velocity 335m/s, range 7225m. A salvo would have 50% of the rockets falling in an area 215m long x 219m wide. It took 7.25 seconds to fire a salvo.
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Wotan, what book is that from?
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The Panzerblitz 1 was an R4M air to air rocket with an 80mm mortar shell as warhead. It was very effective against soft targets and infantry. The Panzerblitz 2 used the same R4M rocket, but used the warhead of the Panzerschreck anti-tank weapon making if very effective against armor. The Fw190F-8 carried 12 Pb1 or Pb2 in 1944, and 16 in 1945.
(http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugkorper/blitz.jpg)
(http://www.luftarchiv.de/flugkorper/schrek.jpg)
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hmm, does the 190-F have any special A/G anti-armor loadouts? Since this is one of the least used plane models in the game, perhaps giving it access to the IL2's rocket loadouts might help create a more historically accurate niche for this beast.
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The F8 should have the Panzerblitz rockets...
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I was thinking of a solution that didnt involve any more modeling work by the gang. Those Russian rockets darn good tank killers btw. OTOH, having R4Ms available for air to air *and* air to ground work... :)
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Problem is weight/size difference and all that. The F8 was capeble of having 6 Panzerblitz rockets under each win, that's a total of 12 rockets. Would look weird with 12 of those russian rockets under the wings.
I don't know why Pyro hasn't added the Panzerbltiz yet, there is enough evidence that they were used in the war and it would give the LW and very potent anti-tank weapon. The 110 G2 carry a large bomb load, so does the Ju87 but the F8 is the real FIGHTER-bomber but it lacks loadouts.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
I still don't quite see how the rockets can do much damage vs. tanks.
They aren't moving that fast, they don't have much explosives...
The U.S. HVAR aircraft rocket has the same explosive power as a 5 inch (127mm) Naval shell - same as the main gun on a Destroyer.
If I am not mistaken, some of the German rockets had the same anti-armor punch as a 88mm ani-tank round.
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.1] UNGUIDED ROCKETS IN WORLD WAR II [from http://www.vectorsite.net/twbomb5.html]
* The origins of airborne rockets for ground attack are obscure, but their first major use was in World War II. Most of the major combatants developed unguided rockets for use with attack aircraft, and these weapons had devastating effect on armor and other targets. The simplicity and effectiveness of unguided rockets have kept them in use to the current day.
The Soviets were one of the first combatants to develop airborne rockets, introducing the "RS-82" rocket even before the Nazi invasion in the summer of 1941. The RS-82 had a diameter of 8.2 centimeters (3.23 inches) and was highly effective.
Later it the war, the RS-82 was followed by a similar but bigger rocket, the "RS-132" (with, naturally, a diameter of 13.2 centimeters, or 5.2 inches). The RS-132 was manufactured with either a hollow-charge warhead for attacking armor, or a blast-fragmentation warhead for attacking soft targets.
The earliest unguided rocket system used operationally by the United States in World War II was the "M-8" 11.4 centimeter (4.5 inch) triple-tube "Bazooka" launcher. This weapon consisted of what looked like three pipes bundled together, each containing a stubby rocket about 40 centimeters (16 inches) long, with the bundle attached to an aircraft's stores pylons in place of a bomb.
The M-8 had fins that unfolded in the airstream after launch. It was very inaccurate, but had a reasonable punch. The M-8 was used with US Army Air Force aircraft such as the Republic P-47 Thunderbolt, North American P-51 Mustang, and Lockheed P-38 Lightning.
The British developed their own unguided airborne "rocket projectile (RP)". This was a simple weapon with fixed cruciform tailfins and a tubular body 7.62 centimeters (3 inches) in diameter. The RP was originally developed for barrage anti-aircraft fire in the desperate days of 1940:41, but after the threat of invasion receded, the large stocks available were adapted for use by attack aircraft.
The RP could be fitted with an 11 kilogram (25 pound) solid armor-piercing head, or a bulbous 12.5 centimeter (5 inch) high explosive warhead. The high-explosive version was also known as the "60 pounder" (27 kilogram) RP for the warhead weight. These rockets were used to arm the Hawker Hurricane, Hawker Typhoon, Bristol Beaufighter, de Havilland Mosquito, and other aircraft.
The relatively cluttered launch rails used by the RP usually reduced the speed of the carrier aircraft by a good fraction, but the rockets were effective enough to make the reduction in performance worthwhile. The Typhoon so was devastating in attacks on German armor with the 60-pounder that it became known as "Rockoon".
The RP was also supplied to some US aircraft such as the Grumman TBM Avenger, but combat experience demonstrated to the Americans needed something with more punch than the M-8 or the British RP. The US Navy accordingly sponsored the development of an improved aerial rocket at the California Institute of Technology (Caltech), resulting in the 12.7 centimeter (5 inch) "High Velocity Air Rocket (HVAR)", which was introduced in mid-1944. The HVAR was also occasionally known as "Holy Moses" because of its impressive destructive effect.
The HVAR was 1.83 meters (6 feet) long and weighed 63.5 kilograms (140 pounds). It had fixed fins and was carried on streamlined stub pylons under the wings of aircraft such as the Thunderbolt, Mustang, Grumman F6F Hellcat, and Vought F4U Corsair. It had a steel-cased warhead and could penetrate 3.8 centimeters (1.5 inches) of armor and 1.2 meters (4 feet) of reinforced concrete.
It was also used in the Korean War with good effect. Some photographs from that time show HVARs fitted with large conical armor-piercing warheads. These were apparently improvised when UN forces found out just how hard a target a Soviet-built T-34 tank really was.
After developing the HVAR, the Caltech research group then developed a bigger unguided rocket named "Tiny Tim". The Tiny Tim resembled a scaled-up HVAR, had a diameter of 30 centimeters (a foot), a length of 3.12 meters (10 feet 3 inches), and a weight of 582 kilograms (1,284 pounds) including a 270 kilogram (590 pound) warhead. It was carried on standard bomb racks, igniting after it had fallen free of the aircraft.
The Tiny Tim was intended for "bunker busting" and similar tasks. It was deployed on US Navy Hellcat fighters late in the war in the Pacific, and also used with A-1 Skyraiders and other aircraft during the Korean war.
* The Germans were impressed by rocket-firing Allied fighter-bombers and decided to develop their own unguided air-to-ground rockets, with very little result.
The first attempt was to use the "Panzerschreck" infantry anti-tank rocket, a scaled-up derivative of the American "Bazooka" rocket, from underwing launch tubes. Trials showed the Panzerschreck didn't have enough range, and so it was followed by the "Panzerblitz I", which took the hollow-charge warhead from the Panzerschreck and fitted it with an improved rocket motor. It was launched from underwing wooden "crate"-style racks.
The Panzerblitz I still wasn't satisfactory, and so the next step was to adapt the "R4M" rocket. The R4M was a fairly potent weapon that was used in some numbers at the end of the war for air-to-air combat. It had a diameter of 5.5 centimeters (2.17 inches), was kept on course with pop-open fins, and was fired from underwing racks. The R4M was modified for ground attack by fitting it with a hollow-charge warhead, creating the "Panzerblitz II".
Finally, there was an experimental fit of the 28-centimeter (11 inch) Werfer-Granate 28/32 barrage rocket for ground attack. The German air-to-surface rockets saw little or no service.
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Nice read, but the author did mess up on the Panzerblitz rockets. Both Pb1 and Pb2 used the R4M rocket, and only the Pb2 used the Panzerschreck warhead. The Pb1 used the 80mm (81.4mm) warhead of the Granatwerfer 34.