Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on April 17, 2004, 08:25:48 AM
-
Compliments of Dune:
Nationally, Australia imported 40,939 firearms last year, an increase from 28,016 in 2001-02 and 30,666 in 2000-01.
The Sporting Shooters Association said yesterday the figures confirmed buyback schemes were a "waste of money", with gun owners simply restocking and upgrading to legal weapons.
"By reducing the number of legally owned firearms in the community you do not make the community safer," said Victorian president Sebastian Ziccone.
"Since the Port Arthur buybacks in 1996 and the current handgun buyback, there has not been any impact on firearm crime. The government pays people buckets of money to hand back currently illegal weapons and a large number of people then go out and buy currently legal firearms to participate in their sport."
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,9264273%255E2702,00.html
-
wow...this study was really informative....
there are people legally buying guns in australia..
that it is "it was not known whether the guns had been imported by recreational shooters, law enforcement agencies or the armed forces."
that a Shooters Association president said yesterday the figures confirmed buyback schemes were a "waste of money", and had no impact on crime
That Gun Control Australia president John Crook said yesterday it was disturbing that 100,000 firearms had been imported since 2000. However, some of the guns could have been imported by police and security firms.
....where was the study part again?
Tronsky
-
Okay, well, someone obviously went and looked at some data out there, they would have been considered "studying" the data. Thus the rhetorical "study" imply. I guess my term was lost in translation of text on the internet..
-
that study is nothing new... Every study shows that the womanly panic has simply allowed the govewrnment to take away their basic human right to self defense and has only made things worse... Now that things are worse the government will use the next incident to further crack down on their subjects.
I do admit that australians buckling under to their women and government shook me up a little.. I used to admire the aussies as rugged individualists. Like rural Americans but...
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
that study is nothing new... Every study shows that the womanly panic has simply allowed the govewrnment to take away their basic human right to self defense and has only made things worse... Now that things are worse the government will use the next incident to further crack down on their subjects.
I do admit that australians buckling under to their women and government shook me up a little.. I used to admire the aussies as rugged individualists. Like rural Americans but...
lazs
Have either of you actually ever been to Australia, let alone the Outback? Or even actually met someone who has? I assume not as you wouldn't make such a simple minded and naive statement.
Personally I have nothing but the greatest respect for them.
...-Gixer
-
QUIGLEY DOWN UNDER!!!!!
-
I can't respect a Nation that spawned Yahoo Serious.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
that study is nothing new... Every study shows that the womanly panic has simply allowed the govewrnment to take away their basic human right to self defense and has only made things worse... Now that things are worse the government will use the next incident to further crack down on their subjects.
I do admit that australians buckling under to their women and government shook me up a little.. I used to admire the aussies as rugged individualists. Like rural Americans but...
lazs
smarter? :D
Actually, this doesn't news report confirm that legal gun ownership has increased, that only banned firearms have been taken away?
Originally posted by Gixer
Have either of you actually ever been to Australia, let alone the Outback? Or even actually met someone who has? I assume not as you wouldn't make such a simple minded and naive statement.
Personally I have nothing but the greatest respect for them.
...-Gixer
Onya Gixer!
Tronsky
-
soo... you can go into a gun store in australlia and buy a 1911 colt or clone and licence to carry it? You can buy a 44mag to carry on your hip in the outback for defense? .357 mag revolver?
What types of handguns and semi auto rifles can you have there now? What kinds of rifles or shotguns or handguns period? I looked it up and it seem pretty bleak.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
soo... you can go into a gun store in australlia and buy a 1911 colt or clone and licence to carry it? You can buy a 44mag to carry on your hip in the outback for defense? .357 mag revolver?
What types of handguns and semi auto rifles can you have there now? What kinds of rifles or shotguns or handguns period? I looked it up and it seem pretty bleak.
lazs
So your definition of a rugged Aussie is whether he can carry a 44mag and an assault rifle around with him in the bush? LOL
Only thing I ever used when traveling in the outback was a short barrel shotgun for snakes.
Aussie is like here if you can prove to the police you want a handgun for sport or an assault rifle to go shooting you have to prove it and get the appropriate licence.
But of course that's a whole other debate (open a message thread if you like) and find your opinion of no respect towards Aussies compared to Americans just because of gun laws very narrow and simple minded.
...-Gixer
-
Sorry Rip you struck out on this one.
This article is more on Aussie taxpayers funding a scheme which is being abused (ie briing a gun in cheap from Ebay, get 3 times what u paid for it back from the govt) as opposed to a comparison on gun law effectiveness.
-
You cant have ANY semi-auto weapon larger than a handgun here, not even a .22
You can only own and keep a handgun if you are a registered member of a pistol club, you keep the weapon at that club under lock and key, and you have a pistol licence .(unless you own land If you are a property owner with more than 200 acres, or have the permission of such a person to shoot on their property, weapons and permits are pretty easy to get, both rifles and handguns, unless of course you have a criminal or psychiatric history)
True assault weapons (pistol grip, 30 rnd box mag, flash suppresser) were allways fairly rare, but were available fairly easily on the 'not-so-legal' market, I doubt that has changed much, if at all.
Bolt action sporting rifles are fine, no problems keeping one of them at all, requires a shooters permit, but you can get one of those from any Police station.
Shotguns are fine, so long as they arent semi-auto or pump action.
The REAL stupid part, lever action rifles are a big NO NO !....who the hell ever commited a crime with a lever action .30/30 in the last hundred years???
It's nothing new about the buy back scheme being a total crock, everyone I know who handed in anything was vastly overcompensated, including myself.
I handed in 3 pieces of rusty crap, and was given enough to buy a brand spanking new Carl Gustav .270 with a Ziess 3~9X variable.
Everyone I know who had any semi autos of actual value, didnt hand them in.
Whole thing was and still is a sad joke, blatant over-reaction by the people who have no need of, nor use for any weapons, giving those of us who at times do a few more hassles in getting /using one.
BTW firearms crime hasnt slowed one little bit down here, infact Sydney and Melbourne 'crime families' seem to be shooting each other at an alarming rate just lately.
Really all it means is that there are a hell of a lot more illegal weapons in Oz than there used to be....the weapons were allways here, it's just now they are banned.
Doesnt mean people dont possess them though.
If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. As the say.
Apart from handing in some busted old crap semi-autos which were useless anyway, the gun laws havent really effected me much, except I had to update my licence, and buy some PVC tubing.
In fact I spent last weekend destroying some evil cans with a mate's Desert Eagle....havent chased many porkers though, I dont like the idea of fumbling with a bolt when 100kg of pissed off bacon is charging me :) I used to relish the thought with an SLR in my hands.
Just as an afterthought, as far as I am aware, it is legal to own and keep a fully automatic assault rifle or submachinegun, or a full size machinegun for that matter, if you own a boat of ocean-going capability. Something to do with international law regarding defence against pirates !!
-
thanks bluedog... pretty much what I had read. If I was gonna have a shotgun for defense or snakes it would be a pump or semiauto... If I wanted to keep my hands free... a pistol.
If I wanted to defend myself against the bad guys... you know the ones who well.... shoot and rob people and such... then a concealed handgun would fit the bill nicely.
I have no use for a handgun that is kept at a "shooting club" or at some friends house.
good news is that you could, I guess, keep a sawed off double barrel by the nightstand... A little clumsy and slow to reload but better than a stick.
people haven't gotten any nicer. disarming the law abiding or hamstringing them with laws that take away their RIGHT to defend themselves is as silly now as it ever was and should be viewed with extreme suspicion by any free person.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Bluedog
{the}Whole thing was and still is a sad joke, blatant over-reaction by the people who have no need of, nor use for any weapons, giving those of us who at times do a few more hassles in getting /using one.
BTW firearms crime hasnt slowed one little bit down here, infact Sydney and Melbourne 'crime families' seem to be shooting each other at an alarming rate just lately.
Really all it means is that there are a hell of a lot more illegal weapons in Oz than there used to be....the weapons were allways here, it's just now they are banned.
Doesnt mean people dont possess them though.
If guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns. As the say.
Seems like Vulcan and Blue have differing opinions on firearms down under. Imagine that! :)
-
saadly... law abiding citizens er... formerly law abiding citizens won't be able to show or shoot these now banned weapons in the open any longer.. few new ones will be made or imported and the nannies will have their way... only the worst of the criminals will have the good guns. The banned weapons will take on a stigma and normaly logical people will think "assault weapon" or "handgun" and imagine the devil making them in hell so that they can come to australia and grow little feet and kill people or... turn sane people into murderous psycopaths.
The traditions of shooting will be lost and the city girls will win.
lazs
-
all true freemen need this :
http://www.airforce-technology.com/contractors/cannons/pakistan/pakistan4.html
to defend against the black helicopters!
-
http://www.a-human-right.com/
-
chairboy... that is the perfect website... I would be extremely interested in how some of the anti gun rights nuts on this board answer the questions in the "guns are a liability" section.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Seems like Vulcan and Blue have differing opinions on firearms down under. Imagine that! :)
Not really - everyone knows Sydney is a cesspit of crime. But relative to what you have in the US as far as gun crimes go its only a fraction.
Come to NZ Rip, see how it feels to walk down a street with unarmed cops :)
-
I think the pro gun less crime debate is a pro gun guy's wishful thinking. Now I'm not anti gun, I've been associated with the NZDA (New Zealand Deer Stalkers Association) for some 20 years, a friendly NZ version of your NRA. But I do agree that NZ has the right balance as far as gun laws for hunting,sport shooting and gun ownership.
The reason I say pro gun less crime is wishful thinking is simply because compare two statistics:
1- The number of crimes in the US where a firearm is used. Anything from a BB gun,handguns,shotguns what ever.
2- The amount of injuries and deaths related to the use of firearms in crime.
Now compare that with any other western country on a per peson basis. Or you could combine the populations of the commonwealth countries UK,Canada,Australia and NZ which is all have pretty similar gun laws though I think UK would be most extreme. And I doubt infact could gurantee that on points 1 or 2 that they would be higher then the US which has the most open gun laws of any western country.
I agree with Vulcan, I live in NZ's biggest city and when out with my girlfriend at night it is very assuring to see cops without guns walking the beat. You can still safely walk around the darkest of back ally's at night without the fear of someone asking you for your wallet. And if you did have the misfortune of someone asking you for your wallet you can gurantee that he won't be holding some old .38 at the time.
Another interesting statistic, if you look at young males 18 to 30 in the US what is the biggest cause of death. Car accidents or guns?
Reason I ask is that I once read that in this age catagory statisticly more are killed by guns then car accidents. Which is a pretty shocking statistic.
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by lazs2
chairboy... that is the perfect website... I would be extremely interested in how some of the anti gun rights nuts on this board answer the questions in the "guns are a liability" section.
lazs
Good question Lazs... lets look at this example:
My level of familiarity with firearms is:
I am ignorant of how they function.
I know the basics of gun safety.
I carry for self-defense, compete or hunt.
I am an firearms instructor.
I know how guns function from watching TV.
How do I answer this? I've handled firearms extensively from the age of about 8. I'm not a firearms instructor, nor do I 'carry'. The question are loaded.
The rest of the questions are impertinant to NZ. I have never been attacked with a firearm, nor am I ever likely too.
You just can't wrap your head around the fact that not all the world is as screwed up as the US is with guns can you?
-
Bluedog,
Lever action 30/30s are not banned.
In terms of crimes, dunno, but a shop owner killed a theif with one about 10 years ago.
-
You could be right there Brendo, I was just going on what a mate had told me, he used to own a really nice old Winchester (? Model '94?) .30/30 lever action, and doesnt any more, when I asked about it, he said they were now illegal.....must admit, I couldnt see the reasoning behind that one at all. Might even be a state Govt thing here in QLD that doesnt apply in NSW too I guess.
BTW, the shop owner that killed a thief with a .30/30.........I've seen what one does to pigs, and at your typical in-store-firefight range, my God that woulda been messy!! Talk about overkill. May as well use solid slugs from a 12 Gauge .
PS Still in touch with Retnuh? I'd be interested in his point of view on this, as he would be in a position to know what sort of impact the laws have made at street level.
I'd guess somewhere between 'not a whole helluva lot' and 'sweet Fanny Adams' myself.
Blue
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
The rest of the questions are impertinant to NZ. I have never been attacked with a firearm, nor am I ever likely too.
I can't say the same for myself.
I have been threatend and shot at on two occasions in the last twenty years while working my farm.
I'm well armed now,have been for a long time, and I plan on staying that way despite any tougher gun regs the gov introduces.
And from what I hear tougher regs are in the pipeline.
Excel
-
Gixer. spot on!
Same here up in Iceland, unarmed police, very little guns in rotation. Gun crimes almost non-existent.
One can still hold firearms for hunting, even lever operated up to .22 magnum, as well as pumps and 4-shot semi auto shotguns.
But Hanguns are forbidden. There is nothing you are allowed to hunt with those, and they are easy to hide, so....no handguns.
I rather like it. For a weapons license one needs a clean crime record, 2 guarantoors, a course, and a police interview.
Seems to work ok.
The US gun paradox is that the US has a stunning percentage of its inhabitants in jail, while people still don't think that the streets are safe enough.....sort of weird really....
-
this is too funny... NZ and iceland? real gangsta hot spots those with borders that have to fight off the third worlders..
sheesh... soviet russia was a very safe place to walk the streets even in the middle of the night (cept for the curfew) is that what you want?
If you claim that there is no possibility that you will ever need a firearm on a farm then you are just silly.
oh... you could have answered that you have "some familiarity with firearms" compared to a free people your familiarity is minor unless you had a lot of military training.
I haven't commited any crime with a firearm or murdered anyone or even injured anyone in a firearm accident... by what basis would you deny me the right to own one?
I have used firearms to prevent crime being done to me and someone else. I am fairly large and mean spirited but am getting a little long in the tooth... guess when someone stronger comes along I should just... what? yell for help? give up?
unless I want to live in some socialist whitebread country and be a "subject" and even then... I will probly be prudent to be armed enough to defend myself.
lazs
-
Hehe, I AM a Farmer, and I have firearms.
I however see no need for city folks to fill the place with handguns....
BTW, "little" Greenland is flooded with firearms. Strangely, their gun crime rate is also quite high...
-
angus... why do you suppose those people are in jail? In rural America that is miserable cold and undesirable with very few minorities like the dakotas you will find that the percentage of incarcerated people is low.
We put bad people in jail... not enough of em... and not long enough but when we can... We have a lot of bad people here. Very few of the people in jail are in jail for gun crimes.. they strongarm and rob for the most part. They are afraid of citizens with guns.. they would like nothing better than for the population to be unarmed.
what happens in iceland or nz has no relevance at all to the U.S. situation.
or... even australia.. I belive that australia is a vibrant economy with a lot of individualism still extant. unlike most socialist "subject" states. If they had mexico for a border they would be even more like the U.S. and less like the other suject states.
lazs
-
ah.. I see angus... yu can be trusted with firearms and you need them but your fellow man is untrustworthy and incapable of decideing how to defend himself? You will make a good mother.
lazs
-
Point is, a Big gun is just as good if not better for defence, while a hangun is way better for the crime jobs.
You don't have to be a farmer to hold a gun, but as one you will need it sometimes, NOT FOR SELF DEFENSE actually, rather for putting a sick cow out of its misery, etc....
-
angus... you, nor anyone else including the police can gurantee that I will never need to defend myself.
In the states it is proven that when more citizens of a state have concealed carry permits the crime rate goes down. It is a fact that people who get concealed carry permits are the least likely group to commit crimes.. It is a fact that poeple are attacked and killed or women raped every day in the U.S. by criminals who allmost allways depend on their numbers or strength or a knife or club. What would you suggest would be a good method to defend against them?
with luck... I will never need a firearm again to defend myself or others. Most police never use theirs. but... it costs me and my fellow citizens nothing for me to have one and it seems to lower crime.
lazs
-
So, would a lever operated 22 magnum do, or do you HAVE to have a handgun?
As for your in-state comparison, it turns the other way when comparing the US with other countries.
-
how do you conceal a lever action 22 magnum? I have a Winchester lever action 22 magnum and it would be about the last gun I own that I would choose to defend myself. certainly one of the last to go out in public with. A handgun can be concealed and not offrend the faint of heart nor antagonize people... at the same time... the fact that many people may be carrying a concealed firearm deters the bad guys from attacking the weak. If they only had to avoid 22mag lever gun wielders... it would sorta defeat the purpose no?
I am consistent in my comparissons of states just as I am of countries... when you have a whitebread state or country with little or no outside interaction or diversity and rural atmosphere... you have low crime... the crime remains low whether the rate of firearms ownership is low or high.
The real point is. What gives anyone the right to take away someones right to defend themselves? Aren't you judging them guilty of a crime (shooting) that they have not commited? why are you afraid of law abiding citizens having firearms?
lazs
-
Defending your home,you don't really need a conceilable weapon,right?
And why would you wanna be going out in public with a gun for? Oh, forgot that you've got all the public armed to its teeth with handguns...
A hard way to go back from there, but possible to keep out of that situation in the first place.
Not all countires with a lot lower crime rate than the US are Rural or "white". Compare the US with London for instance. The US mounts twice the rates of people in jail, and many times the capital crime rate (murder, rape and armed robbery),despite the good cause of a defensive weapon.
Hell, I've been around so many Euro cities at night, somewhere, and alone in many occasions. It never crossed my mind that I'd need a gun,but I did have to excersize my sprint a couple of times, hehe.
-
no angus... again, you miss the point. I am not afraid that I will run into criminals with guns... not too much anyway but.. I could be attacked with a club or a knife or just by several thugs or... by a druggie or someone who simply thinks they are strong enough to take from me and mine or harm me and mine. They will most likely not be armed with a firearm since the penalties are increased for crime with firearms (as it should be) .
I am not interested in testing my fighting prowess or luck. In such serious social matters I will settle for nothing less than the best advantage I can get.
Allmost all of the shootings that you read about in the U.S. are one worthless criminal killing another or an inocent bystander that lives in the slum where the shooting took place.
lazs
-
Maybe about time to stop selling guns to the baddies :D
-
The traditions of shooting will be lost and the city girls will win.
as i remember most gun crimes are done by inner city street gangs...
which traditions would those be? the ones that made clint eastwood a ****load of money doing movies on?
-
You are a scared scared little man laz.
But on to the topic. If the people of australia vote for lawmakers that enforce the gun laws and write new ones so be it. It is a democracy. America will never have anything so overt, nor should it.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
what happens in iceland or nz has no relevance at all to the U.S. situation.
Funny thats what I keep saying all along as well.
-
Not sure if anyone would define me as either "scared" or "little" maybe tho..
I do however, know enough to not bring an icepick to a gunfight..
and.. so far as selling guns to the bad guys.. no... probly not a great idea. Good idea tho is to make harsher mandatory penalties for crimes commited with firearms.
lazs
-
maybe not getting into a gunfight?
-
Not sure about you guys but when I see a statement like "I do however, know enough to not bring an icepick to a gunfight"
One gets the feeling that this is more about trying to show ones masculinity then it is about gun laws and gun ownership.
...-Gixer
-
True Gixer.
Anyway, we're off-rated because we don't come from big urban areas, and European urban areas don't count either.
Still puzzles me, - how could a big urban area such as London or Berlin benefit from more liberal gun ownership? Would more handguns cut down the capital crime rate?
-
The problem is that those in the pro- and anti- gun groups often refer to 'overseas' studies in their arguments. Like all statistics you can make those studies read however you want. And so the arguments often deteriorate into sillyness about what other people should do.
I don't argue for gun laws such as those we have in NZ being imposed in the USA. IMHO its far too late for that. The US has gone beyond the point of no return. Theres no way the US can dig itself out of the mess its in with guns (and yes Lazs it is a mess), and the anti-gun lobbyists should wake up and realize this.
But I do take issue with people (especially from the US) mocking gun laws in other countries as absurd and 'a removal of rights and freedom'. This is the argument of the ignorant, particularly those ignorant in the pleasure of walking the streets not having to worry about being shot or having to defend yourself with 'more firepower'.
-
"point of no return", - nicely put.
It would take a very long time for the US to return from there, so let's just not join them in the mess.
-
Is Laz actually Walter from "The Big Labowski"?
-
Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Is Laz actually Walter from "The Big Labowski"?
Is Vulcan actually Michael Moore from "Bowling for Columbine" ??
-
hmm.. vulcan.. you claim the U.S. is a mess... you also say in the same breath that you don't think people from "overseas" should comment on other peoples laws... yet... you do not live in either australia or America. I don't think that our gun laws are a mess except maybe far too restrictive.. I don't believe that human nature has changed much over the centuries and I do not want to live in some police state or socialist paradise no matter how "safe". would rather have the U.S. with all it's warts.
gixer..The comment about not bringing an icepic to a gunfight was a play on an old cliche for stabies benifiet but if "one" gets anything about my masculinity out of it then "one" is welcome to "ones" opinion. I personaly think that macho guys that are fearful of and anti gun and claim that they can "handle themselves just fine without one" or "don't need one to defend themselves"are probly just young and naive but could have issues about their masculinity.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
I don't think that our gun laws are a mess except maybe far too restrictive.. lazs
Just to add to this, its not our guns or laws that are a mess, its our inner city where most of the murders occur, with illegal weapons. Crime committed by law abiding, registered gun owers is 1/10 of 1 %. And, if one wants to dig alittle deeper and question why the aforementioned occurs...well, it begins with nurturing, family, responsibility, etc.
-
It is also a fact that puting more guns (concealed carry) in the hands of city dwellers helps stop crime at an even greater rate than rural areas... the places that need em the most are getting the least in a lot of cases.
lazs
-
Now matter how you put it, the US has more people in jail than any western nation. It has a very high rate of capital crime, and a stunning number of corpses with a bullet hole in it.
Buying guns is rather easy, hence the baddies have them. So, do you think that a succesful way to fight that is by having even more guns?
-
yes.. that and making penalties for commiting crimes with a firearm more harsh..
the best way tho would be to have a totalitarian government with strict laws and curfews and a large police state.
The U.S. also has a much higher conviction rate for crimes commited than say england. I don't think I would brag that the criminals don't get caught. Not getting caught doesn't make the crime or criminal go away.
lazs
-
Originally posted by Angus
So, do you think that a succesful way to fight that is by having even more guns?
Actually, yes. and there are facts to back this up. Give me a couple hours after my meetings, and I'll give you the facts and data.
-
Originally posted by lazs2
hmm.. vulcan.. you claim the U.S. is a mess... you also say in the same breath that you don't think people from "overseas" should comment on other peoples laws... yet... you do not live in either australia or America. I don't think that our gun laws are a mess except maybe far too restrictive.. I don't believe that human nature has changed much over the centuries and I do not want to live in some police state or socialist paradise no matter how "safe". would rather have the U.S. with all it's warts.
Reading Comprehension 101, Identify the difference between these two statements:
The US is in a mess with guns
The US laws for guns are a mess
No matter how much you argue it, you cannot deny the fact that such proflific availability of firearms is causing problems in the USA. The gun related crimerates there are 10 or 100-fold that of other countries.
Police state? LOL. Good grief, we're just the opposite here. In fact I think you might find parts of the US are far closer to a police state than we are. If its about personal freedom lazs, why not just lift the laws on everything while you're at it, including things like hard drugs?
You don't need to be armed in the US for personal freedom, you need to be armed for self defence, that statement in itself speaks loads about the situationthere.
-
Why is guns so important that the subject get this big in this forum ?
Personally I dont care much about them, they do damage and I frankly dont need them.
I care more about getting drunk drivers off the road or maniac motorheads trying out their cars in populated roads.
But then again I am a socialist pig from skandinavia and have no clue about anything. (actually i vote in mycountry republican but for the reps in this forum I still am a socialist :D )
have fun and keep up with this stupid and endless theme.
-
Of course I deny that the prolification of guns in America is the problem... I don't even see it as a problem.. White gun crime is very low. I don't think we can in good conscience prohibit all minorities from owning guns tho.
As for hard drugs.. I have no problem with "legalizing" drugs but would have harsh penalties for abuse like driving or commiting crimes while on drugs. If you knew that you would not be fully aware when you took them and then did it anyway then you are responsible for anything you may do while on em... also... you should be heavily penalized for operating machinery in a public place while intoxicated.
I have also heard that NZ has become more like the U.S. in that it has cut it's taxes by 50% over the last couple of decades and trimmed it's useless government workforce by even more. these actoions seem to have pulled you out of your econmic disaster you were headed for.
lazs