Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: MarkVZ on December 31, 1999, 10:47:00 PM
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Something that I find most unrealistic about most flight sims is the icons above the planes. An important task of a combat pilot was identifying the type of aircraft spotted and his direction and attitude. If im headed straight for another aircraft in real life, I would have no way of knowing he's a 190 or a P51 or a 109 until he was in my face, not at a range of 8 thousand feet. (or whatever unit is used to measure distance in AH) Since both teams fly all nationalities of aircraft, there always has to be an identifier of which team the aircraft is flying for. In my opinion, we should cut out the distance and plane type from the icons. Would it make things a bit tougher for some of us? Sure, but arent we out for realism as a true combat simulator? In real life a combat pilot could not pick and chose among the specks in the sky for the one he has superiority over, as we can in Aces High. They also could not instantly tell the direction of an aircraft as we can use our distance icons to see. But again, since we fly all sorts of nationalities of aircraft on both sides, we would still need a team color icon. Maybe a red icon of the con's team that shows up at the distance that the current icons turn on? I know this probably sounds crazy to most people accustomed to today's combat sims, but I feel that the current icon system is very unrealistic and arcade-like. Heck having no plane type icon may even get newbies to learn what differs between the aircraft, and the distinguishing features each posesses. If I'm not mistaken, WWII combat pilots were taught the distinguishing features between different aircraft through use of models and cards. A C47 on the deck should not have it's type given away to a fighter that just sees it as a speck, just to be given the con's first priority. After all, at that range it could be almost anything. The element of surprise is gone with icons that give away aircraft type and distance, and it's something i'd like to see changed in the future.
Just a thought...
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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There is a online sim out where the icons fade as distance increases and vice versa
It is possibly the best thing about the sim and has had many favourable critiques.
I think this is the way to go and if possible would be a great facet if a similar design was implemented into AH
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SC-Sp00k
Sqn Ldr
SSC
http://www.picknowl.com.au/homepages/oneshot/main.htm
**Its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog.**
Skeleton Crew
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Mark, it's not just that we have icons, its the information displayed by the icons which is also a cause of trouble.
If the USAF could somehow get hold of a radar which displays the info the AH system models, they'd put it on every fighter they have.
A perfect, unjammable, spherical radar which sees in all directions and provides completely accurate data on aircraft type and closure rate?
With the current system you can have a con 3000yds behind you, take a 2 second glance, and not only tell if he's gaining on you, but exactly how fast he's gaining. In RL, how long do you think you would have to stare at a 35 foot wingspan aircraft at a distance of 3000yds to tell if it was coming closer to you, and by how much?
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C.O. Phoenix Squadron
www.users.bigpond.com/afinlayson/index.htm
'feel the heat .......'
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No icons works only in a setting where a certain aircraft is flown only by a certain country. It cxannot be open melee where any plane can meet any plane. Otherwise there will be a hell of alot of friendly fire problems.
-Westy
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No icons doesn't work, it has been tried in WB. Dark planes against a dark background are impossible to see even from very close distances. The current state of computer graphics does a poor job of simulating a realistic field of view, objects are too small and have too little contrast. We are all flying around with 20/400 eyesight, so icons are necessary to fill in the information we can't get from our monitors.
If you like, try using alt-I to turn off icons and watch the planes nearby disappear.
Two things I think could improve icons:
1) put the icon below the airplane instead of above it where it is too easily used in deflection shooting. I bet I get half my pings while shooting at the icon of a plane which is below my nose in a tight turn. This will also prevent planes flying below a ridge line from being seen because of their icon.
2) put a time delay on icons. When you switch from one view to another, the icons in the new view would not display until a delay of .1 seconds per 100 yards. So a plane 1000 yards away would not have an icon for the 1st second, 2000 yards away 2 seconds, etc. This would better simulate the time a pilot would require to judge a plane's type, distance, and closing speed. Right now, a pilot can scan around him in 2 seconds and collect range info of every plane around, making SA too easy.
The no-icons debate will never end, but until we are all using hi-rez VR goggles we'll need icons or we'll be flying like Mr. Magoo.
--ra--
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No icons works only in a setting where a certain aircraft is flown only by a certain country. It cxannot be open melee where any plane can meet any plane. Otherwise there will be a hell of alot of friendly fire problems.
This is why I said that we should just keep an indicator of what team the aircraft is on. This would turn on at the same range (or less I'd hope) that the standard icons turn on at, except it would not contain the aircraft type and distance. I have no problem seeing the dots against the ground or in the air in 800*600 resolution. I just think that instantly knowing the aircraft type and distance is very unrealistic for a WWII combat sim, and wouldn't mind seeing the distance and aircraft type icons removed.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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Excellent points, ra, I fully agree.
Also, I agree with mark. How about country icon only ? Maybe a plane icon at 1000 yards and less.
Range indicator? Better not.
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I think that in a HA setting Icons can appear at 2.0 by the time you this close your almost allway gona end up engaging the target. This should be the same for all Icons.
This works well in WBs HA arena setup.
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Wardog, I think that would be a good comprimise, icons that turn on at a much reduced range. Maybe team icons that turn on at current range, then distance and acft icons that turn on at 2.0 or below? I think that would put alot more realism into the game.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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How about they use a smaller font, aircraft type only and make the icon at least semi-transparant?
I'm all for none to be honest ...with of course country specific aircraft.
But I know and realise monitors (size as wel as DPI) and vid cards are all not up to the task at this time.
-Westy
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Ditto MarkVZ, your compromize would be perty cool.
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SgtSpike
v355 Fighter Group
Steeple Morden Strafers
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Hi all, this is my first post on AH BB, be patient with my english, but this topic just induce me to say something about...
I agree with your statements, MarkVZ, no more a/c type and distance on icons for me.
Moreover, IMHO present identifiers are too big, so when I fly in crowded sky, I see a lot of red and green icons, labels and numbers, instead of planes! I find this very annoying (BTW, is in AH possible to turn off icons?).
I know, it's unthinkable to dogfight without some sort of Friendly-Or-Foe identifier, because screen resolution is far from real life and it's really difficult to identify by shape a plane that's not flying very close to us, but on the other hand we can use zoom to help us in such case.
So, a little red or green (why 2 colors for 3 countries?) simbol, like a dot or a square, near the plane could be sufficient.
An improvement to this solution can be a fading icon, due to the distance from us and the observed plane (as Sp00k suggests) and, for friendly planes only, a same effect on pilot ID, starting at very low distance ( it's more realistic to identify first the plane and then the pilot).
--Grifo--
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Did they possibly have IFF(Identiy Freindly or Foe right??) during ww2? If so than icons could be removed and just use a manual IFF system to find out who's side that plane is on. As for the distance and type, that's for you to figure out.
My dos centos (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I used to fly a sim in which the AC where paintable. At the very least both wings(top and bottom) and the whole tail section would have to be bright red for proper ID. More frequently the whole AC was painted a bright color to provide easier identification. I never liked icons either- but it seems to me it's either icons or a flying circus of bright green or red or whatever AC.
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Atleast remove the range indicators. . .
// -nr-1-
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So far here are idea I find very good (in my opinion only, though(:
1. Icon delay when switching views. The delay is 0.1 second per 100 yards.
2. Range bar indicator instead of numbers
3. No plane type indicator.
4. Icon below the plane.
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Hristo - sounds good to me (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Except 3. - I suggest we dump range indicators altogether.
Since AH is totally 3D, it can scale the gunsight .bmp displayed on the screen in real time. So it seems to me it would be easy to implement .range(yards) and .span(feet) commands that scale the gunsight just like a real WW2 vintage reflector sight does. (NB: The gunsight code has to be "fixed" so it displays like a real reflector sight, ie: infinite focus.)
Then we will need a "firing range" that points the plane at a wall thats marked with a width bar(for target wingspan) and at a known distance from it(target range), so we can calibrate our custom gunsights. Eg: .gunscale (percent)
Then I suppose the latewar Allied stuff will have to get those fancy gyro sights... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by juzz (edited 01-04-2000).]
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Good ideas, Juzz. I actually wanted to suggest no range indicators at all, but that might be just too big step from current state of the sim. Bar indicator might do for now.
And yes, give the opportunists gyro gunsights. Rall was right about them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Oops - forgot one more thing.
No tracer/tracer ratios option. If the gunsight system is made more realistic as the main aiming device, an option to have no tracers/less tracers would be nice.
The only catch would be the infinite amount of whining from players shot down without seeing the enemy shooting at them. "I didn't even see the Fw190 on my 6 shooting at me, then my wing fell off! What's up with that!" etc etc... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Hristo: what did Rall say?
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When the light was right it was actually possible to see the 30mm(1.18ins) shells in flight. - Heinrich Beauvais(Test Pilots, W.Späte).
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Hi gang! I was kinda thinking about these icons too and here's a couple of ideas I think would work.. well.. "ok" anyway. hehehe
#1. No more distance indication on icon.
#2. Make the Green/Red icon, not a word above, or below the plane, but make it a translucent outline of the plane. Example, if you follow an aircraft up through a cloud, as the enemy enters the cloud his "indicator" turns a light pink, because of the white clouds, then back to red outside of the clouds. If the icon is made to be an OUTLINE instead of a "designation", it will not clutter the screen with "P51 1.3K, SPIT 2.5K" etc.
#3. Have the "F/F" outline around the plane fade with distance. Within 8k it is a VERY light pink (probably unnoticable), within 4k it's a nominal red, and within 1.5k is a BRIGHT red.
#4. I like the idea of a delay to getting IFF code, how about something more like .05 seconds per 100meters? That way it's only half a second. At a full second/1k, an aircraft could probably close quicker in a close fight than recognizing F/F.
Just some random ideas :-)
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Fellas, we need range icons. When you are bouncing an enemy plane below you he is often just a blur, depending upon the background color and his plane color. And I don't mean just a plane that's 10k below, I mean even a plan thats 2k below. Next time you're 2k above a Niki, turn off icons and try to BnZ him. You'll see how just poorly this modern miracle of 3d graphics can simulate the real world.
In WB when icons were turned off in the HA, the fighting tactics became very dweeby. People often chose to fly the plane that's hardest to see from up close, like a Yak or P39. Then they fly around on the deck semi-invisible and wait to bounce the enemy from BELOW, diving back down to the deck after the bounce, sort of inverse BnZ. A very dweeby unrealistic tactic, but one that works with no icons. Also, real BnZ becomes almost impossible, so the fight becomes a very tight furball, everybody trying to stay close to the enemy so as not to lose sight of him.
I see no problem with reducing the distance at which icons appear, maybe 1 mile would be good, IMHO.
--ra--
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1. Icon delay when switching views. The delay is 0.1 second per 100 yards.
I like this idea also.
2. Range bar indicator instead of numbers
Could give or take on this one. I really dont know what advantage the range numbers give that the range bar wouldnt give me as well.
3. No plane type indicator.
I REALLY like this one. Most of the plane types are already discernable by their unique colors. Might make things a bit more interesting.
4. Icon below the plane.
Dont like this one and heres why: If I am not mistaking, by flying low on the deck, the current graphics engine will block out any text that underneath the plane. Try this....find a plane that is low on the deck and then look at it as you roll inverted. Text disappears dont it? If you can do this without enabling goons or buffs to fly low thus blotting out their range and type signatures, go for it. Otherwise, I say no.
-Ding
-Ding
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FWIW. I like them the way they are.
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Excellent comments! I suspect tho that if the icon system was completely customizable what most flyers would select is what we have right now.
I like the 'display bottom' option.. execpt for the icon vanishing as Dingy pointed out.. if i'm the hunter. If i was the hunted; well hell yes! Gimme the bottom Icon! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Frankly; I've become so used to switching from plane type to name for friendlies to update my SA and as a result I have become dependent on this new feature to establish my tactics & strategy going into and during big furballs that NOT having it would really disrupt my game.
Another good indicator of just how poorly our monitors emulate real life view recognition.. I know most WWII planes from any of their three views with almost 100 consistency.. and can identify 'em with absolute certainty till I get in the sim. Then I look over at Dingy; D2 out and can't tell what he's flyin till I switch the icons. Yet I can clearly identify general aviation and military types easily at 4 times that range in real life.
Yep, I think type icons are critical to gameplay but would not mind having the range for identity reduced to about half the range they are now.
I also agree that the size of the icon should be reduced.. but suspect again that this is a playability issue.. some poor joker with 1024 rez on a 14" monitor will not be able to read the icons at all if they were smaller.
All in all; a significant change in Icon structure would result in as much disruption as a flight model change. After 4 years of brand W flight; the icons here seem "right" but I realize thats just because it's what I'm used too. Fading Icons; range bars; icon placement options and reduced plane type range for enema all sound good tho; and giving it a try while in beta is the time to do it!
Great posts! Enjoyed this thread!
Hang
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PALE HORSES
"I looked, and behold; a Pale Horse, and it's riders name was Death, and Hell followed with him" Rev 6.8
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I was flyin' co-alt to some clouds a few days ago, and saw red flashing inside them, well 2 rook Spits were hiding in or a little above the cover. I would have NEVER seen those planes if not for the icons.
Mr.ED
Pony Pilot
Knight
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But in real life would you have been able to see those planes in the clouds? Most likely not. I would love to use the clouds to my tactical advantage but icons give me away, so theres no point to even having the clouds to hide in. A C47 on the deck should be able to take advantage of it's green color to stay out of the eyes of fighter pilots, just as a spitfire with it's cammo should. These icons are like hunting deer with a big orange flag on them. (Fly a C47 and you can feel like the deer (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif) ) I think a SMALLER team icon that turns on at current range, then distance that turns on at 5k or so, then aircraft type that turns on at 2.0 and below would be a good way to do it. This way you will only be able to tell aircraft type AFTER you've engaged it. Like I stated in earlier posts, being able to chose the opponent who is flying an inferior plane to you is unrealistic and I would not mind seeing it go.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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I asked HT were they planning a new approach to the problem of icons (and it is a problem). He said no, but was thinking about playing with dist. it becomes visable at.
Dotsie.
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I am one of those wild eyed idiots who thinks long range icons suck. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
With a true Axis vs. Allied Historical Arena icons could be reduced/dropped. I know this is such a radical idea that people will scream and panic over it. Of course they will say "it won't work". I've also done it in the WB HA and sorry, but it does work, you just have to have a clue and can't be runnin lo res with a 13 inch monitor (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now if you will excuse me,
<submerges self in creek and breathes through straw awaiting flashover>
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I agree that we need something to identify which team one is on, but MarkVZ made a good point about spotting a low dot. Most people don't want to give up alt needlessly, immediately knowing what a bogey is makes the decision very easy. Someone else mentioned icons that fade, how about just a colored dot? If they can make it fade, that would be better. Just my thought, I don't want to post too much, at my age I like being called "junior" again.
WOOD1
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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hmmmm.... I keep seeing people say that the settings in WB's "Historical Arena" works?
Sure it works if you think 30 people on a good night in primetime, furballing low between two bases is what everyone else calls "works".
Sorry dont' want to start a flame war, but the numbers say that the WB's HA is a dismal failure and has never appealed to more than a small fraction of a fraction of the player base.
Personally, I prefer the WB's SL icon settings (a compromise between the two camps).
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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The icons are not realistic. Unfortunately, their realistic merits are heavily outweighed by those of a limited graphics engine. As Hangtime stated above, and as anyone that has worked at an airport knows, aircraft are identifiable at much greater ranges than current computer graphics allow. Icons are necessary to help bridge the gap.
I'm all for playing with the range the icons turn on/off... but they are necessary to the point that having something similar to Warbird's HA would not be practical.
AKDejaVu
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You are right vermillon, from a business standpoint, you could say the HA in WB is a failure compared to the MA. But as far as whether or not they "work" as far as playability, I think they do work. The reduced icons also tend to keep out the icon dependant "pilots".
I really wished I wasn't so alone in feeling this way. To me, wondering "is that far off dot friend or foe?, going or coming?" is half the fun. Identifying the bandit first, before he sees me, not the 300 ft. tall neon sign above my plane.
At this stage of development, the planes in Aces High are harder to ID at distance than in WB's, but I'm sure this will be improved on.
I would like to see the development of a HA sometime in the future of Aces High for weirdos like me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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True Hblair.
The other night however I hit [ALT}
one too many times and lost my icons.
I though awesome! I'd happened to fley FAII a while back to see what that sim was like and soem arena bug struck and I lost all icons. I thought (and still do to a certain extent) that losing icons could work.
But the othere night in AH I went from is that a friendly or foe, coming or going to is that a con at all?
We have a ways to go with the graphics in AH (I hope they'll get better for visibility at greater than 500) before we could toss icons.
Of course maybe if I had tried to zoom (I do not use zoom and there fore it did not come to mind at the time) in to see what the icon wa it would have been better.
Then again a 21" monitor with a dpi of about .25 or less would help me too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-Westy
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According to what I've read about Simguild's Battle of Britain they use only the player's handle icon which fades out as you get closer. You have to ID the AC by its markings (black crosses etc.). BOB , has a magnification view, however, which makes the ID process easier. If icons must stay, I would rather see them fade out at 500 yards.
The only other alternative I can think of would be solid bright colors on wings, cowl and tail section to indicate country of origin.
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How about a historical real arena that those of us who like the full real settings could fly in. No tags whatsoever and limited radar capability. In addition, a special scoring section denoting kills within that arena.
I have played in several other combat sims which allow this feature and it is a challenge. Target recognition in addition to closure and ranging decisions make for some "real" fun.
No colored text to lead during a deflection shot, makes it a whole different ball game.
JagdNine
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I would say, give me a freindly Icons at about 2.5k and No Enemy Icons.
In regards to a C-47 how about having the Icons only on when you can be painted by a radar, so if you are below 300Ft, NO Icon.
I am using 1024X768 32bit and think the Icons are HUGE!!!!
I thought HT was gonna play with the icons, I wish he would start, and provide some of the info to us.
If all the enemies are RED and the Friendlies green, all I would like is a Red Trace or OUtline for Enemies, or Green trace or outline for friendlies, and perhaps the Friendlies Handle Below their aircraft.
I also think Icons should turn off when you are in the clouds.
Range indicators could come on say at 1.5K, I don't think anyone shoots beyond 1K anyhow so No point in having Range icons beyond 1.5K
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"I could feel the 20MM Cannon impacting behind me so I made myself small behind the pilot armor" Charlie Bond AVG
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Very Opinionated Person.
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Maybe I'm slow (not open to debate) but Downtown's idea of ICONS for "friendly only" is GREAT! Sorry if it's been said before but that is exactly one great way of making a compromise between PC's and the need for IDing aricraft.
and even then, dim the icons down because 1024X768 and 16bit they are billboardish.
Perhaps allow the users front end to select size and/or font for icons?
-Westy
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The ICON debate (A never ending one) rages on!
IMO there is No Way that you can get rid of ICONS altogether and still have a product (with current technology) that is profitable. A game that is not profitable will not be around long, or it will be modified to be profitable.
How else can you put a playes name, above a plane and have it readable? It has to be big. I like seeing my co-players names and the type of the plane that I am up against.
At 700yds, the only planes I can make out are the B-17 or the C-47. For the others, I can only distinguish there plane type by its camoflage coloring. A bigger monitor will not solve this problem.
Often I use the ICON as a target to lead my shots. I am sure other people do as well. I am more into "Having Fun", not "Puritan Realism". I have more fun when I can see what I am shooting at, even if it is a big flag out in front of my target. This game is about ACM, not about realism. The game is already difficult enough.
The next complaints will be:
- The ICON ranges are too short
- There is too much low level furbal, because so many players are "stealthing" under DAR.
- Can't read the ICON, make them bigger
- The ICON patterns and colors suck
- How can I fight a plane that I have no clue what it is until I am 500yds away from it, because all I can see is a BLACK DOT or a BLACK CROSS
- This game caters to only the elite, and it is too hard for me
I would like the icon rangs shortened in general, but not excessively so. For planes flying under DAR I would like the ICON range shortened considerably. Make the ICONS a little smaller, about the size of 8 - 10dpi text. Otherwise, leave the ICONS alone. They do not detract from my enjoyment.
Mino
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I would like the icon rangs shortened in general, but not excessively so. For planes flying under DAR I would like the ICON range shortened considerably. Make the ICONS a little smaller, about the size of 8 - 10dpi text. Otherwise, leave the ICONS alone. They do not detract from my enjoyment.
Here here <golf claps>
My feelings exactly!! Especially the "under DAR" portion.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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How can I fight a plane that I have no clue what it is until I am 500yds away from it, because all I can see is a BLACK DOT or a BLACK CROSS
Well they seemed to get along fine in WWII without billboard icons.
I LOVE the idea of friendly icons only, but I'm not sure many people would go for it. Reduced range for icons is all I can hope for I guess.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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Mark;
Well they seemed to get along fine in WWII without billboard icons.
Honestly, the only paralelism that I can distingish between this game and WWII air combat, is that the names of the planes, the weapons, and the manuvers they preformed are the same.
This would be wether or not, the plane graphics had ICONS over them. It just seems, "More Fun", to me for a game to have distance ICONS.
How can I fight a plane that I have no clue what it is until I am 500yds away from it, because all I can see is a BLACK DOT or a BLACK CROSS
It would seem a reasonble bet, that real WWII pilots would not be able to get along fine if the AH plane graphics with no ICONS, was "In Fact" all they had available to them for visual cues.
Real planes have things like altimeters. It can be difficult just to tell even, for something so big, how far away the earth is.
I certainly agree the ICONS are too large. I'll just wait this one out.
BTW, thanks for letting me fly in with your squad. Much fun!
Good Luck to you in your ICON efforts. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-07-2000).]
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I'm with Minotaur on this one, butt i'll go one step further. For those of you that don't like the icons just shut up and turn them off. End of debate. Once you see an enemy plane turn off the icons and have at it. Leave the rest of us alone.
kjb
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For those of you that don't like the icons just shut up and turn them off.
Why would we put ourselves at a disatvantage by turning our icons off while everybody else still has them?
I was hoping my simple idea wouldn't attract any flames but I guess I was wrong.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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Mark, it wasn't meant as a flame. Sorry you took it that way. Just saying if any one doesn't want the icons, turn them off. Butt don't let the minorities views, sway a great game in the wrong direction. I keep hearing "that's not realistic" or some other cry for reality. Guess what? this isn't WWII, we don't really die, a computer monitor does not resemble looking out of a cockpit in any way, you cannot get the same view from a monitor that the pilots in WWII had. So if you want reality it aint gonna happen. The only similarity between us and WWII pilots is that we both breath air. If HT decided to make the game as close to reality as they can there would be plenty of whining about gun jams, flat tires, lousy maintanence, and hundreds of other things. I agree something needs to be done with the current icon system butt removing them isn't the answer for most of us. I tried turning off the icons a few times, do ya know what? it was a disaster. My eyes just cannot see clearly enough on my big (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) 15" monitor to not have some form of help from icons. Again i do not like the current icon system. There has been many great ideas to help solve the problem. So let's let HT decide what they want. Sorry this was such a long post, but i get so tired of hearing complaints about realism. Compared to brand AW, this sim is totally awesome, no wait, even without comparing this sim to any thing, it is GREAT. I'm very thankful for what those folks did in WWII and am sure i've never had nor ever will have what it takes to have been a WWII pilot. That's one reason i enjoy these types of games, to be able to see a very small part of what it was like back then. makes me even more greatful for what they have done for me. HT and company are doing an excellent job with this game, and i look forward to playing it more and more. If it get's too close to reality very few will play. This has all just been my NSHO. Not trying to flame any one just trying to get it off my chest. Mark i'm sorry if i've offended you or any one else, it wasn't intended.
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KJB
aka kjb ;)
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I understand that reducing icons scares the holy hell out of people like Minotaur, vermillion, kjb, etc. Please don't panic. I'm sure your neon won't get trashed.
I understand that us so called "purists" are in the minority. All I was inquiring about was a possible Historical Arena in the future. Where Luftwaffe and Royal Air Force planes scrap it out without the long range wussy billboards.
Quote kjb:
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"Compared to brand AW, this sim is totally awesome"
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No offense to you Air Warrior guys, but from what I've heard from guys who came over to WB's from AW, AW was hardly comparable, and I would hope AH would be aiming for an improvement on WB's not AW.
I just read this and it sounds harsh, Oh what the heck I been drankin' (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
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hblair;
I understand that reducing icons scares the holy hell out of people like Minotaur, vermillion, kjb, etc. Please don't panic. I'm sure your neon won't get trashed.
How the heck did you mangage to infer this?
Did you read something that was not written?
Are you exagerating just a tad to make your position more viable?
Advice --> PULL UP! PULL UP! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This topic of discussion is not new. In fact, this topic ranks high on the list of threads that seem to renew themselves often.
MarkVZ wanted to get his ideas across and he did. He started this thread to do so.
He made very good arguements and stated his position well.
I wanted to get my ideas across and I did. Verm and KJB did the same.
Exactly, what ideas did you want to get across? That you are a "Purist" (whatever that is). That you don't like ICONS in AH. That you think players, who consider AH to be a game that does not approach reality, are "Wussies". That you don't know much about AW. That you take a drink once in awhile and spout off. That you had a wild hair irritating your backside and wanted to flame someone, because they do not hold your opinion.
Sadly, MarkVZ is correct. I'm not sure why so many threads have to go down in flames. It is certainly discouraging. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Wait for the next ICON thread, you can flame me again.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-08-2000).]
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Scares Me?? Not even close... LOL !!
I have flown in every icon/DAR/Radar setting that has ever been tried in AirWarrior or Warbirds, be it the main, the HA, Scenario Lites, Warnights, and Scenario's. And I have done well in each of them.
I am all for some of the improvements that Mino and some others have asked for, especially given our AW style inflight radar (which I don't like).
Plane type and distance numbers not appearing till at half the normal distances, otherwise a simple red threat icon.
No icons at all till half the distance if under DAR (with the same 50% of the 50% as above).
Reducing the size of the font and the position of the Icon.
Time Delays in appearance of icon in a view based on distance.
Hell.. I am all for those tweaks.
But I will NEVER advocate such an extreme system as is found in the WB's Historical Arena. Period.
I find it boring, dry, personally annoying, with extremely poor attendance by the pilots who constantly tout the superiority of the system.
And the funniest part is for a "Historical Arena", it has some of the most ridiculous ahistorical tactics I have ever seen. Because monitors just DO NOT have the ability to compensate for normal vision.
Just go drink another beer and we'll talk about it after the hangover (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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hmm, I riled you boys up huh? hehe.
Minotaur you really oughta fly WB's before you have much of an opinion on anything in an online flight simm. And before you guys slam me ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) Who do you think the lead programmer and producer were in WB's? Why did AW not win Flight simm of the year 3 years in a row? My point is not to slam AW, but to show you that maybe you don't have much of a foundation to base your flight simm philosophy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
verm--, I've heard your name before, but don't think I've ever seen you in an arena, and I KNOW you ain't been in the HA lately. As a matter of fact, your handle doesn't register a score? Maybe I put it in wrong or something.
This is my first time being a Bulletin Board bad boy. Am I doing good? >burp< (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Have a nice day fellas. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Nope, my handle won't register a score in WB's right now, since I haven't flown a single sortie there since probably late October, early November.
I got tired of the piss poor connects, and the lack of development. I still have my account, but its just holding my handle and thats it.
Has the HA changed it some manner lately that would change my opinon? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Still follow AGW, but I might have missed something.
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Vermillion
WB's: (verm--), **MOL**, Men of Leisure,
"Real men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires ;) "
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hblair;
Minotaur you really oughta fly WB's before you have much of an opinion on anything in an online flight simm.
Are you asking me if I ever played WB?
And before you guys slam me ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif))
My apologies, I don't believe that I "Slammed" you. In fact my "Slam Engine" did not even come off idle. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Who do you think the lead programmer and producer were in WB's?
Duh.... Is this a 1 point bonus question?
Why did AW not win Flight simm of the year 3 years in a row?
Maybe because the FM is based on an engine that is 10 years old?
My point is not to slam AW, but to show you that maybe you don't have much of a foundation to base your flight simm philosophy. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
This comment provides me some amusement. Please justify this statement by answering these questions.
How much really, do the plane graphics in AW differ from WB, or from AH?
How many major changes in technology have been developed, in the display of plane graphics, on computer CRT's from AW to AH?
How well do computer CRT's display artifacts, compared to that which is seen by the human eye in the real world?
How does this pertain to my opinion about having or not having plane ICONS?
Real Air Combat amounts to 95% boredom (or more) and 5% terror (or less). This is what I have read, pesonally I have never been in Air Combat. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
AH is a flight sim game about ACM. I would rather it be a game with 75% excitment and 25% boredom (or less). ICONS encouraging and attracting engagement. Than 25% excitment and 75% boredom(or more). Players spending most of their time hunting down opponents.
Personally, I would play AH with or without ICONS if the game stays exciting.
But.....
For any game, existing in the real world or only computor generated, I lean towards finding excitement in the game. I lean away from finding boredom. This is my philosophy about flight sim games.
Mino
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This is indeed an old discussion.
When we say that "currently technology/programming cannot afford realistic visual cues", I think that statement needs to be modified with "as currently implemented". For example, Zoom features do help give better visual cues albeit at the expense of Field Of View.(Not that I think Zoom is the answer.)
I think the problem is that no one is willing to "think outside the box." Almost every Sim that comes out, on-line and off-line types, uses pretty much the same techniques for visual cues and view options. This is probably the prudent way to market a Sim; take few risks of non-acceptance.
I'd love to see some company go ahead and try some new things. Many of the proposals in this and other threads merit a chance, IMHO. Unfortunately we run up against the problem of money. Programming has to be done by people that get paid. Sifting through 50 ideas to find 2 that are an improvement is going to cost a wad of programming time that the Firm might wish to spend on more productive revenue producing projects (hey, let's give everyone the 262 they've been asking for!).
I don't have all the answers, for sure. I pretty much hate icons they way the 3 major online sims use them. I think we could get somewhat closer to a RL plane ID situation if it became a major issue.
I just don't think that's going to happen. The squeaky wheel gets the grease and the anti-icon wheel just isn't that loud yet <G>.
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RA,
On both points 1 & 2 I agree 100%
Icons in some form are necessary to simulate normal depth perception.
You are right on the money with an Icon delay setting. It would simulate a pilot thoroughly scanning a given view window.
Great Ideas!
Jarbo
of the Buccaneers
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Quote Minotaur:
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"Maybe because the FM is based on an engine that is 10 years old?"
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Good boy, You're getting a clue now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
You sure do seem to put a lot of effort in your replys.
BTW, other than AW & AH, what simms have you flown?
Great post, toad.
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hblair;
BTW, other than AW & AH, what simms have you flown?
I have a shelf full of box sims.
I got hooked on flight sims, really bad, with a game called "Jetfighter" for the Amiga ($2,000 for the Amiga 1000 dead horse MF). Pretty awesome flight sim for its day.
Then came Falcon 3.0 (Ouch - $4,000 for a computer that would run it).
YahDah YahDah YahDah...
My latest (but so buggy) sim love was Falcon 4.0, but I grew tired of "Flying the Radar MFD".
The last WW2 flight sim I purchased was EAW. I did not really care for it. WW2 sims, flying against human AI, is what I now crave. Along with sex and golf. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I live in a small isolated community. Please forgive me for seeming so "Backwardish". I really am trying to catch up!
"Maybe because the FM is based on an engine that is 10 years old?"
Good boy, You're getting a clue now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
What does FM have to do with ICONS?
Who do you think the lead programmer and producer were in WB's?
If the lead programmer and producer of AH were also the lead programmer and producer of WB, why are the ICONS on for default?
BTW are you aware that in AH, ICONS can be turned off? Pretty cool in the clouds or ground clutter, can't see a thing. Have you have tried it?
The next time you do, try to see at what range, you can distinguish, a non-multi engine plane type. I am terrible at it. I usually can tell inside of 400yds, closer to 300yds, what plane type it is. Unless I get an above or below siloette. The markings don't become apperent till under 200yds.
If "No ICONS" is what you want, then I honestly hope that option is available to you in the future. The good news is that "If it's in the Game, Then it's in the Game" and it's in the game. You may very well get your wish.
Good Luck! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Mino
[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 01-11-2000).]
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Atleast get rid of the range indicator and keep the plane type. .
// -nr-1-
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Would like to see this thread return to the discussion on ICONS instead of AW -vs- WB Pilots and who is flaming who.
As I said, freindly only Icons should be necessary. So you don't shoot friendlies.
As to advesarial Icons, well, we know RED is the Enemy, whether they are Knights or Bishops, If I don't see an Icon I will shoot them down.
If you pick and choose who you attack based on the Plane Type Icon you are definetly using a tactic not available to WWII Pilots, I would love nothing better than to only attack C-47s, but then I wouldn't fly much Air Combat would I.
It shouldn't matter that you are attacking a Nick from a distance any more than you are attacking a pony from distance. As soon as I see I dot, I start trying to get an altitude advantage. If I know that I can't get the alt advantage, I run away. SOmetimes it was a pony or 190 and the run me down, sometimes its a spit and I run away successfully. I don't need icons to tell me this.
The reason I posted that Icon's should be disabled below dar is, for the C-47s, they fly low and slow, and are unarmed, and probably 99.999999% of them are killed because someone sees their Icon from 6000 yards and can kill them. Think how many more C-47s would get through if you really had to hunt them. Think what it would add to the game. Also folks sometimes land near a field under contention, and are often found because of their icons. If they were under dar, this would pretty much stop also. In a low furball it wouldn't matter cause you would probably be close.
I would still leave freindly Icon's on Under Dar to avoid Kill SHooter Problems.
Regardless of any changes the ICONS are JUST TOO DAMN BIG.
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Lincoln "Downtown" Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Those who don't remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Hals und beinbruch!
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Downtown, I think you have similar things in mind to what I have. I don't mean to come across as an a*shole, but if the icons were at least turned down, some people would be surprised how much more fun the game would be.
I'm not gonna respond to minotaur anymore, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)except to say that if he will download WB's, I'll let him fly in the HA with my username for one night, to let him see what I'm talking about (will cost me $). He may or may not like it, but he will see where I'm coming from.
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Downtown;
I agree I wanted this to be a ICONS thread. I certainly did not bring up any AW, WB or AH comparisons. Thanks for your moderating statements.
hblair
I'm not gonna respond to minotaur anymore
GeeWilickers... Did you ever once, respond to me?
More like, you just settled upon trying to belittle me and couldn't. IMO you just "Wussied Out". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
If you lose that "My Opinion is Better Than Yours" attitude, we might actually have a constructive discussion some time in the future. <Salute>
Mino
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Heh. The old icon (cough) debate. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Personally, I LIKE icons. I play to try to out maneuver and out shoot the other guy, not to spend my time peering at a CRT. And I like AH icons way better than WB, because everyone has the same color, giving no one a (dis)advantage in visibility.
Having said that, I'd try a few of the ideas suggested above:
1. Reduced range for low altitude planes. I like sneak attacks. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
2. Smaller fonts. In 1024x768 they seem just a bit large.
3. Time delay variable with range. Good simulation of RL.
My two cents.
popeye
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It always bothered me that a C47, flying 10 feet off the ground, can not take atvantage of it's green color because the instant any cons see the red C47 icon, you may as well bail right then and there, because you probably arent going to make it. I used to take my 47's up high, like 15K or so, then dive in. That changed when they introduced structural limits, and you can not lose altitude fast enough for a good drop. I know it was unrealistic but it was the only was to stay out of reach of cons for a little while. Maybe if you knock out a country's HQ, it should take the icons with it. As it sits right now, there's not much reward for the ultra-boring and dangerous buff mission to the HQ that lasts for hours. Sure it knocks out the radar, but not nearly long enough for any sort of strikes to organize. Of course killing dar should only take away the con's icons, because you don't want to be shooting friendlies. Somethine else I would like to see is 5 or so more men in the C47. I have been in a C47 before and I know it can seat more than 10 men. If we kept the field capture to 10 men, this would greatly improve the chances of 10 of them getting through.
Some people are probably thinking that this would make the job of a 47 pilot much easier and that they enjoy shooting fish in a barrel, but I can bet that there will be very few willing to fly goon missions once AH goes pay if their job isnt made easier. I find that over 75% of 47 missions end in failure, (Yeah, what are you supposed to do when some niki dives on you?) and I don't think people want to pay to try to accomplish the impossible.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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Icons are not good, yep right in one,
Icons are needed for the game to work,
yeppers again.
My (insert brand name) monitor hasn't the stones to provide visual cues like IRL eyeballs. Again, (yawn) right.
These are good points guys, on both sides of the discussion (a mannered well spoken dicourse if you please)
In the long run Icon settings will probably
undergo some mods to see what will work, but let's stay out of the "all or nothing" fight,
it's generally unhealthy for the sense of community. I agree with Verm on the HA too little contrast= unrealistic tactics and damn few people flying, not a winning combo for someone trying to make a profit.
I'm not actually trying to take a side here, why? because I agree with the points made by both sides. What I will say is, keep a perspective on the discussion, because unless you're arguing with HT,the guy you are yelling at cannot really do anything to the sim, no matter how bad they want to.
keep it polite, I was in WB since about V .95
I was there from AW because of the sense of community, I left about 2.01 because that feeling had pretty much left the WB arena.
I don't want to see it again.
My skills in this game will probably never get me looked up to, but that's not why I'm
here, nor you I hope.
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Just another Idea to throw out.
Have the Icon size change in relationship to distance. At max. distance the icon would be small enough to make out red or green color but not plane type. As the distance decreases the icon grows larger. At the point that RL visual cues would allow you to identify the plane the icon would be near the size it is now. It may be a way to get away from the distance meter if there was a large enough interest in doing that.
I don't know if this is possible or not but would be a great way to balance from no icons and the disadvantage of not being able to tell plane types until 1000yds, but at the same time not being able to see what kind of plane you are engaging outside of a range a real pilot at the time would have seen.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Rocket
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The Red Dragons
Fierce and Bold
With Honour and Courage
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www.reddragons.de