Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: gear on April 18, 2004, 12:33:23 PM
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The battle of the Coral Sea would be kool.If some one could get a map that would work.Cuz a carrier war would be real kool.:)(http://www.gunplot.net/coralsea/coralseamap.gif)
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Gear......
What do you think about your avatar? is it so cool?
I don't think so..............
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Gear......
What do you think about your avatar? is it so cool?
I don't think so..............
__________________
Artik,
101 "Red" Squadron Israel
Too EACH HIS OWN,BTW i said a "CORAL SEA CAMPIAN "would be kool.
Here read a little history b4 you start judging me:D It should be noted that this text is not entirely accurate: The Mound Builders inhabited the Ohio River Valley and the Cliff Dwellers lived in the Southwestern United States; however, both did use the swastika, as did the Mayas of Mexico. Furthermore, although the swastika may look like four "L's" to one who uses the Roman alphabet, in Greek it forms four Gammas ("G's"), in Hebrew it can be seen as four Daleths ("D's"), and among the non-literate people of North America, it corresponded to no letters at all. Thus the ascription of Luck, Light, Love, and Life to the amulet is simply an English mnemonic, although it is prettily reinforced on this card by images of a horseshoe (luck), the rising Sun (light), twin hearts (love), and Earth (life). Finally, not mentioned in the text is the swastika's use as the specific emblem of Ganesha, the Hindu god of good luck, who is also represented as an elephant.
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yeah, right.
nice spin, nazi admirer.
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At left is a very nice American-made beaded item from the 1920s that bears the initials J.B.Y. and a black swastika on a white background. It is a simple strap-woven seed-bead piece of the type often made for a merit badge by Girl and Boy Scouts, or, as in this case, woven on a "while you wait" basis by American Indians for tourists at places like the Fred Harvey hotel chain in Arizona and New Mexico. It was found in an estate collection of Native American bead-work that had been put away and wrapped in 1929-dated newspapers. The twisted cotton threads terminate in a brass pin for hanging.
(http://www.luckymojo.com/swastikabead.gif)
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A bunch of non history known @#$%@&*%. You just connet an image to what your taught and lead to belive is a bad thing.If you do some reserch you'll see that the image was around long before the rise of the nazi party.
:D
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"Claps to Gear for a sensable statement"
Gear is 100% Correct, the Nazi Party did'nt come up with this symbol, they just "used it" as a symbol for their rhine. Now i am not totally sure who invented it I do know it is a symbol of Good Luck from God by many countries before our time. I have a badge here at home, my grandfather found it during WW2, it's from a german soldier. It has a swastika and on the back is like a little prayer from god with a swastika around it, meaning Good Luck. You know how people use the "Christ Cross" as a way of prayer and shield from evil? Well, The Nazi Party had it for their same reason, The Jewish party just did'nt believe in it because the Nazi Party took all their anger out on them, I understand Jewish people not liking it for what has happened to them, but don't go judging someone just by a little symbol that they have that YOU do not know what it really means symbolically.
Just my 2 cents, if ya disagree, that's nice then I know your illiterate personality, :)
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Sorry, Pappy but you're buying into the excuse lock stock and barrel. Gear displays the Nazi swastika. There's no mistaking it. Apologist types have been using the old "Vikings, American Indians and Hindus were using the symbol long before the Nazis did so it has precident and it's cool" argument for years. He's not displaying an Indian charm in his avatar. He knows it. Everyone else knows it.
Hitler adopted the swastika as the symbol for his party. He turned it into a symbol of hate. It's been that ever since. There's people it offends. Of course, most who would even consider using it in an avatar could care less if it offends anyone, anyhow. But they will get VERY defensive if it's brought up. Case in point ... Gear's response in this thread.
That being said, I could really care less. I just find the old "party line" amusing. I fall more on the side a smirking and shaking my head over it than jumping to "Gear's cause." He'll either outgrow this phase or not. ;)
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Dude Arlo, Don't be sorry for responding to my thought the way you did, I knew someone would, you don't think races used this symbol ever before the Nazi Party? WOW! you should read up on it. I'm not saying Gear should or shouldn't have it, All I am saying is too many people say "oh that's horrible" when they don't know the actual real meaning of it, Hitler adopted it, that's all. He basically stole the symbol and turned it into something bad, instead of using it the way it was used before. If you disagree, oh well. I'm just letting you know what i have read in books about it. :)
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You really didn't understand my post, did you Pappy? :)
Glad you devoted time to reading a book about swastikas. Many of us here already knew about it without going that far. As for myself, I've better studies to devote myself to. But if you think Gear is displaying anything other than the symbol of the Nazi party in his avatar, I suggest you review your book. :aok
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Originally posted by AcePappy
you don't think races used this symbol ever before the Nazi Party?
That isnt the issue Ace. As Arlo said, Gear is displaying the Nazi swastika, he knows it and so does everyone else. I am sure someone, somewhere, burned a cross long before the KKK did in the rural south, but what does a burning cross mean to people now?
In this country at least, you have the right to show the swastika, and I support Gear's right to do so even if it is a symbol of hate, but dont kid yourself Ace, it IS a symbol of hate now and forever after the Nazi's used it. That is irrefuteable, and trying to do so makes you look bad.
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Nice troll gearsy
most lively thing on here since we left. No comments from arlo required on this one either.
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EXCUSE ME!!!!!! Can anyone of you piont out where I posted anywhere in any posting that states that the swatika is kool?
(BTW I have both american indian and german heritage).
This whole post was about a coral sea campain not my avitar.:D
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I know the swastika has meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people over the years, but I thought Hitler flipped it around? Something was different (physically) about the nazi swastika vs how it appears in other belief systems (I think it's rather common in hinduism?).
That being said I gotta say that bringing a swastika avatar to a ww2 based discussion board is asking for trouble.
As for the coral sea, if there's a way to do it I'd be happy to run it as a setup, as I'm a big fan of early war PTO.
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Here are the task forces .
Carrier Striking Force - Vice Admiral Takeo Takagi
Shokaku
Zuikaku
Myoko
Kaguro
destroyers (div 7) Ushio, Akebono
destroyers (div 27) Ariake, Yogure, Shiratsuyu, Shigure
oiler Toho Maru
Tulagi Invasion Group - Rear Admiral Kiyohide Shima
minelayers Okinoshima (sunk), Koei Maru
transport Azumasan Maru
destroyers Kikuzuki (sunk), Yuzuki
(need smaller vessels)
Port Moresby Invasion Group - Rear Admiral Sadamichi Kajioka
Yubari
destroyers Oite, Asanagi, Uzuki, Mutsuki, Mochizuki, Yayoi
Transport Unit - Rear Admiral Koso Abe
Support Group - Rear Admiral Kuninori Marumo
Tenryu
Tatsuta
Kamikawa Maru
gunboats Keijo Maru, Seikai Maru, Nikkai Maru
Covering Group - Rear Admiral Goto
Aoba
Kako
Kinugasa
Furutaka
Shoho (sunk)
Sazanami
Submarine Force - Captain Noburu Ishizaki
Allied Forces
Task Force 17 - Rear Admiral Frank Jack Fletcher
Task Group 17.2 (Attack Group) - Rear Admiral Thomas C. Kinkaid
Minneapolis
New Orleans
Astoria
Chester
Portland
destroyer screen Phelps, Dewey, Farragut, Aylwin, Monaghan
Task Group 17.3 (Support Group) - Rear Admiral J. G. Crace RN
Australia
Chicago
Hobart
destroyer screen Perkins, Walke
Task Group 17.5 (Carrier Group) - Rear Admiral Aubery Fitch
Yorktown (CV-5)
Lexington (CV-2) (sunk)
destroyer screen Morris, Anderson, Hammann, Russell
Task Group 17.6 (Fueling Group) - Captain John S. Phillips
Neosho (sunk)
Tippecanoe
destroyers Sims (sunk), Worden
Task Group 17.9 (Search Group) - Commander George H. DeBaun
Tangier
VP-71 and VP-72: 12 PBY-5 Catalinas
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Gearsy, I can no longer read your posts. your swastika made me burn my chicken. Do you think pouring beer on it will help?
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Ironically, the swastika's the internation symbol for peace.
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LOL next someone will connet it to a chicken turning over an open flame.(or in thier case in a gas oven).:cool:
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Hitler flipped it around?
YOur right he did.
Oh BTW did any of you bother to look real close at it ?
Before you decided to start this whole crusificaiton?
Did'nt think so:D :aok
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Originally posted by gear
Oh BTW did any of you bother to look real close at it ?
Before you decided to start this whole crusificaiton?
Did'nt think so:D :aok
You turned it backwards. You're so cunning! Boy I'm glad I helped you learn about making animated avatars. :lol
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LOL.... Do you some how feel responsale??????:D
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Originally posted by storch
Nice troll gearsy most lively thing on here since we left. No comments from arlo required on this one either.
Well hell .... wouldn't you just run to Skuzzy and cry that someone talked back to you? But since you have me on your ignore list your feelings shouldn't get too hurt. ;)
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Originally posted by gear
LOL.... Do you some how feel responsale??????:D
Neh ... you would have had someone help ya with it sooner or later. You've got "statements" to make. I do wish Storch would help spellcheck your posts, though. He's got a knack for that. :D
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Spell chek I need no stinkn spel chek:lol
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All those destroyers & carriers floating around...
Ack will be worse than Okinawa...
:(
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Well not all of those ships will be there.
there are a lot of support ships in that list,not to menchen subs(boy if we could only have subs)plus that would make it more interresting. Meens a large scale IJN vs USN battle wagons slugging it out while the torp planes try to get in close.:aok
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I like the Coral Sea idea Gear, I dont have any more comments on the akitsaws (backwards, get it?) thing.
There is a Coral Sea map, but it seems odd for some reason. How about using the Midway map? Its all the same equipment ship and plane wise.
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Well hell .... wouldn't you just run to Skuzzy and cry that someone talked back to you? But since you have me on your ignore list your feelings shouldn't get too hurt.
Are you implying he's a tattletale who dishs it out and cant take it? Shame on you sir.
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Who me? Nev-AR! :D
Yeah ... carriers are kool.
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It could work since the outcome of the coral sea campain had a direct effct on midway(although a midway campain might be a blast also).:)
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Gear you can talk a lot about swastika and it was used before Nazi Party.......
But the swastika you show is Nazi Swastika
So don't tell me all this b.... sh...... about the simbol.
Don't try to use you freedoms to tell I do what I want.
In lots of other countries it is just illegal.
If you will continue to use it I'm not sure you will get a lot of help on this forum (that is not first thread on this topic).
All the smilies you add don't change the swastikaand its meanings.
So if you do not understand what does it mean....... I can tell you very poor man.
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Well it's not here and due to my native american heritage I'll use it if I want.Itdoes not meen that I agree what the nazis did,nor does it meen that I'm a nazi.
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Arlow your too much:rofl
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Artic, you need to stop fighting over a symble unless it is being used to represent hatred. Using it in the game does not mean hatred unless so stated by the person using it.
Isreal is God's chosen country. Be Damned any whom goes against it!
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I personally see nothing wrong with its use in a display context and once again feel that my belief in people's adherence to political correctness as been reaffirmed.
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1st! carrier war oooh yeah! sounds great gear.
2nd personaly think it's bad taste to show a symbol that has become so powerful a sign of hatred and inhumanity. reguardless of it's "true" meaning, or intention. there will be people who will argue to there death that you are propogating hatred, there will be others who will defend your "right" to use it and show it. But that is neither here nor there, you say it is not a nazi symbol, fine it's not, but you placed it there in hopes that people would flame you about it, in order to begin an argument. and that my friend is weak.
just my $.02 CDN
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Cool idea.
Did the Indians have a little eagle in the middle of their swastikas like you do in your avatar?
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The problem with the carrier battles in the CT is sustainability. W/out land bases how do you keep the fight going and keep it interesting. If the Cv's are sinkable you run the problem of one side being knocked out of the fight, result everyone logs unless the CM staff monitors the arena very closely. If you make the cv's too difficult to sink you eliminate the use of strike aircraft. Which results in a 24 hour furball which may sound appealing to some will turn others off, result low #'s. These issues make using maps like Midway very difficult in an unsupervised enviorment like the CT. I think the coral sea maps has similar problems but honestly I'd have to go look at it again. I for one would love to see more cv's in the CT but some of the basic problems with their use have to be solved first I think.
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The subject of carrier battles in the CT has been a long time idea in my mind and we have thrown it around some in the CT Dev Group forum and the CT Staff forum as well. We may be able to make something work but we don't know till we really try and build the terrain.
Essentially we have to leave the CV Task Groups to spawn in the same places each time with the ports far off the visible map.
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There is a Coral Sea map. But it would suck, suiciders would sink the CVs and you would be left with long flight times.
Even if you tweak it where the cvs spawn closer to each other they cant be too close or they will just get suicided right after they spawn. Folks complain that the Okinawa CVs spawn to far away and they spawn with in 2 ½ sectors of Naha.
Folks would complain about the ack, the Japanese would have but a Kate and Val vs. the TBM and SBD. IMO it would be a complete waste of time.
There’s lots of "cool" set ups that you folks can come up with but unless you consider the nature of the players then you are kidding yourself if you think the "idea" itself will mean it will be fun.
A good number of CT'rs aren’t into anything more then building battling. The CVs would be the magnet for even more of these types of players.
Without substantial land bases in close proximity the fun factor will drop off as soon as the CV sinks. It takes 12 min per Keypad Square, 36 min for a CV to cross a sector.
There is just too much downtime. If you make the CV extremely tough it would pointless. They would turn into unsinkable islands, if you make the ack more deadly folks would just hide in it.
So it may sound "cool" in reality it would be quite different.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/334_1082403708_coralsea.jpg)
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Yeah you hit it dead on there Batz. The idea that I have been working off of is similar to the NDisles map without all the outlying bases/islands. I just don't have the free time to diddle around with the TE to get what I want to try as a map.
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I like the Coral Sea idea, but I think for the reasons Batz said, the Slot map is the only practical way to have '42 PAC setups because of the need for land bases.
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Originally posted by Batz
Even if you tweak it where the cvs spawn closer to each other they cant be too close or they will just get suicided right after they spawn. Folks complain that the Okinawa CVs spawn to far away and they spawn with in 2 ½ sectors of Naha.
Folks would complain about the ack, the Japanese would have but a Kate and Val vs. the TBM and SBD. IMO it would be a complete waste of time.
Without substantial land bases in close proximity the fun factor will drop off as soon as the CV sinks. It takes 12 min per Keypad Square, 36 min for a CV to cross a sector.
There is just too much downtime. If you make the CV extremely tough it would pointless. They would turn into unsinkable islands, if you make the ack more deadly folks would just hide in it.
I'm not gonna say that you're wrong but there are options as well as different povs to consider:
On planeset disparity
Each side will have it's strengths and weaknesses. The Japanese planset will actually be better at fleet defense while the U.S. planes will be somewhat better at attacking fleets (somewhat).
On fleet ack
Doesn't it have a setting like all ack? Fleets can be custom designed to be heavily or lightly escorted as well.
On distance
Two or even three sectors isn't too bad when opponents are actually flying towards one another .... and when fleets are actually sailing toward one another.
On land bases ... and on capping fleet spawnpoints
The current Coral Sea map has all land bases "off the map" (so to speak). We could make some sacrifice in historical accuracy by having the bases AT the fleet spawnpoints to protect them as they spawn. Make the bases tough as hell.
On past experiences vs. new ideas
Like I said .... maybe it would suck no matter what we try ... but we haven't tried everything yet.
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Originally posted by Arlo
I'm not gonna say that you're wrong but there are options as well as different povs to consider:
On planeset disparity
Each side will have it's strengths and weaknesses. The Japanese planset will actually be better at fleet defense while the U.S. planes will be somewhat better at attacking fleets (somewhat).
Well in this case it would give one side a much greater advantage in sinking the other sides CV. Lets face it the Japanese will be out numbered and if this is the case defense only matters when each persons is concerned with dieing. If not several suiciders dashing buy to suicide the CV there’s no way to stop it. You see this in the main all the time. Now you have situation where 1 sides CV is continuously knocked out. This will cause some just to say F'it and not fly at all.
Then add in the US attack planes are faster and way better armed. Would you rather chase down a TBM is an A6M2 or a Kate in an F4F? There would very few on the Japanese side who would even bother flying the Kate or Val
On fleet ack
Doesn't it have a setting like all ack? Fleets can be custom designed to be heavily or lightly escorted as well.[/b]
My point about ack is that the CVs are easy to suicide. There's 2 ways to deal with this.
1. Increase CV hardness - This hurts the Japanese side because they will have fewer players and their attack planes are slow and for the most part unarmed. Increasing CV hardness will almost make the US CVs unkillable.
2. Increase the ack - Suiciders wont care about ack, after all they are suiciders. But ack will be used as shield and folks hiding in it rather fighting it out.
On distance
Two or even three sectors isn't too bad when opponents are actually flying towards one another .... and when fleets are actually sailing toward one another.
Are you kidding me? Do I need to quote your very own complaints about the Okinawa fleet spawns being in BFE? Folks complained then what would be different this time?
On land bases ... and on capping fleet spawnpoints
The current Coral Sea map has all land bases "off the map" (so to speak). We could make some sacrifice in historical accuracy by having the bases AT the fleet spawnpoints to protect them as they spawn. Make the bases tough as hell.
You could make it work as long as a CM is on hand to monitor game play. He would need to jump the fleets, reduce CV rebuild time etc... But how much fun would it be compared to just running Okinawa? Or the Slot? Or even the Midway event map?
On past experiences vs. new ideas
Like I said .... maybe it would suck no matter what we try ... but we haven't tried everything yet.
Well first its not much of a "new Idea", more like "re-hashing an old one". Like killshooter.
This map has been around for years. The one thing that completely unbalances a set up like this is how do deal with those who would suicide rather then fight? I haven't heard any "new ideas" on how to adjust to that fact. You could try it and hope it doesn’t turn out like my "glass half empty" prediction.
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That's the coral sea terrain?!?!??! damn I had a different one in my mind.
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you could use the A6M5 as opposed to the 2 and that would go a long way to even up the aircraft situation. The 2 is all but useless but in the 5 a good fight could be put up and could be an effective escort for the japanese bombers. just a thought. I don't need any flames from the toxic twins.
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Originally posted by Batz
Then add in the US attack planes are faster and way better armed. Would you rather chase down a TBM is an A6M2 or a Kate in an F4F? There would very few on the Japanese side who would even bother flying the Kate or Val
"Chasing the American attack planes" isn't a very good tactic no matter what terrain (or even planeset) is used, Batz. It'll all be decided, more or less, by numbers at any given instance anyhow. There's always players who just say "f it" and don't fly setups (don't even stick their head in one for a week because they made up their mind that it wouldn't be fun based on their own limitations on how to have fun just from reading the forum).
Originally posted by Batz
My point about ack is that the CVs are easy to suicide. There's 2 ways to deal with this.
1. Increase CV hardness - This hurts the Japanese side because they will have fewer players and their attack planes are slow and for the most part unarmed. Increasing CV hardness will almost make the US CVs unkillable.
2. Increase the ack - Suiciders wont care about ack, after all they are suiciders. But ack will be used as shield and folks hiding in it rather fighting it out.
No need for either, Batz.
Hell ... suiciders will be suiciders. Fleets will sink. I believe they can still be turned and their guns can still be fired. I single handedly saved a fleet from sinking for almost an hour one night (a paper one at that).
Set respawn at 5 minutes. Or two. This wouldn't be a territory grab map. Sinking the fleets is the goal. And Kates and Vals do a great job at it. I've seen it. :D
Ack hugging? Name one single map where it doesn't happen in the CT?
Originally posted by Batz
Are you kidding me? Do I need to quote your very own complaints about the Okinawa fleet spawns being in BFE? Folks complained then what would be different this time?
Quote away. I knew you'd be dying to the moment you read this. But you know as well as I do that this is an entirely different case with both sides on a completely even footing terrain and hardness wise (unlike the previous setup you're referencing). One side COULDN'T be hardened and the other weakened. Right? Both sides are forced to seek and sink. Right? Of course, you'll focus on the attack plane disparity, if nothing else.
Besides, my comments were focused at one of the goals of that setup being - keeping the F4U out of play as much as possible via paper fleets and distant respawns. How in the world is that a factor in THIS setup?
But to quote a good AH buddy of mine ....
"Screw balance .. let's fly!" :aok
Originally posted by Batz
You could make it work as long as a CM is on hand to monitor game play. He would need to jump the fleets, reduce CV rebuild time etc... But how much fun would it be compared to just running Okinawa? Or the Slot? Or even the Midway event map?
You can make it work without. What's wrong with a modified Coral Sea map that has fortified spawnpoints? And you mention comparisons to other maps while ignoring the obvious. A Coral Sea setup focuses on nothing but a carrier battle. Mobility, fleet strikes. NO LAND GRAB. :D
Originally posted by Batz
Well first its not much of a "new Idea", more like "re-hashing an old one". Like killshooter.
No ... not like killshooter. Kill shooter has 2 options: off or on. All the ideas I mentioned I've yet to see from anyone (though that may be just because I haven't read every idea posted here from day one). They are all in direct response to your reasons why this can't work. Have they been tried? Even considered before I posted them? Gimme a break. ;)
Originally posted by Batz
This map has been around for years. The one thing that completely unbalances a set up like this is how do deal with those who would suicide rather then fight? I haven't heard any "new ideas" on how to adjust to that fact. You could try it and hope it doesn’t turn out like my "glass half empty" prediction.
That's the whole point about looking at things differently Batz and not dismissing other's suggestions out of hand because "you've been there, done that and it doesn't work." :D
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Originally posted by storch
you could use the A6M5 as opposed to the 2 and that would go a long way to even up the aircraft situation. The 2 is all but useless but in the 5 a good fight could be put up and could be an effective escort for the japanese bombers. just a thought. I don't need any flames from the toxic twins.
Sure. A6M5 to make up for the overwhelming Allied attack plane advantage.
Now ... a quick comment, Storcheena, then you can cry all ya want about it. If all you're gonna do is run to the authorities and cry everytime you're made fun of then you really shouldn't be baiting for it.
That's your common sense advice for the day. :D :aok
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For the record "I hate no person "(well maybee the Intrenal revenue service lol) i was not raised that way OK.
As for the carrier battle... is there a way to have the CV's respawn at random locations? And how about making one carrier on each side so that it would be almost un sinkable,that way there would be a platform for those who want to furball.Now this is just an idea kick it around maybee give it a tweek here and there.
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Have all the fleets spawn at an atol covered with friendly ack and aaa (no actual "base" needed per say) while their base is still way off the map.
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Originally posted by gear
For the record "I hate no person "(well maybee the Intrenal revenue service lol) i was not raised that way OK.
I don't doubt that for a second. I don't think it's hate. I think it's a despirate desire for attention. :D
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Not really, I get all the attention I need.
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Didn't say "need" .... said "desire." :D
P.S. Your Nazi swastika is facing the right way again. You didn't "rember" to reverse it thereby removing all possible onus this time.
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Well then I get all that I desire:aok
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Sure ya do. :D
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there you go, can't you just leave things be??
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So now you're the voice of reason?:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by storch
there you go, can't you just leave things be??
Are you addressing me? :D
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Nazi swastika
By the power vested in me, I now declare this horse dead, everyone stop beating it.
You may now continue with the previously scheduled Coral Sea discussion.
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I have some ideas for a Coral Sea setup:
1. Restructure fleets so that only CV's and DD's are in them. This will stop "suicide fleets". If there are no CA's in the fleets then they will be kept at a decent distance from enema fleets since there is no reason to get them too close.
2. If it is to be '42, DO NOT replace the A6M2 with the A6M5. That is not the correct plane, and should not be there, and I say this as someone who will likely be Axis most of the week. The A6M2 is not the best buff killer, but it can get the job done just fine.
3. If it is to be Coral Sea, the IJN will have 3 CV's (really it was 2 Fleet CV's and a small CVL) to the USN's 2 Fleet CV's. The two USN CV's should be put in one TF (TF17) and the IJN CV's should be put in two TF (Shoho in one, and Shokaku and Zuikaku in a second). The effect of this is, if you find the USN CV's you've found them all, if you find an IJN TF you have only found part of them.
4. Ack should probably be set pretty high, it should take many attack planes to kill a CV, even if they suicide (which at this point in the war thats about what a torpedo attack was). Look at the losses suffered on both sides in their attack squadrons, they were horrific.
5. Enable C-47s from "land" bases to be used as "patrol" planes. Imagine how useful a C-47 at a safe altitude would be for scouring the sea for fleets. Then once you found it, they would have the fuel range to stay on station and give enema fleet locations.
6. CV fleets should have a hardness set to a level that will require...oh...4-6 hits by the biggest bombs the attack planes can carry. This way, only a well planned and coordinated attack will be sucessful, just as back then, peacemeal attacks wont work.
I have my doubts that a CV only setup can work, but I am willing to give it a try.
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I have some ideas for a Coral Sea setup:
1. Restructure fleets so that only CV's and DD's are in them. This will stop "suicide fleets". If there are no CA's in the fleets then they will be kept at a decent distance from enema fleets since there is no reason to get them too close.
Sounds good to me.
2. If it is to be '42, DO NOT replace the A6M2 with the A6M5. That is not the correct plane, and should not be there, and I say this as someone who will likely be Axis most of the week. The A6M2 is not the best buff killer, but it can get the job done just fine.
Neh. We can fudge it a little. The only TBM available is a late war variant. Sub the 5s for the 2. Sub the FM2 for the F4F-4.
3. If it is to be Coral Sea, the IJN will have 3 CV's (really it was 2 Fleet CV's and a small CVL) to the USN's 2 Fleet CV's. The two USN CV's should be put in one TF (TF17) and the IJN CV's should be put in two TF (Shoho in one, and Shokaku and Zuikaku in a second). The effect of this is, if you find the USN CV's you've found them all, if you find an IJN TF you have only found part of them.
Agreed.
4. Ack should probably be set pretty high, it should take many attack planes to kill a CV, even if they suicide (which at this point in the war thats about what a torpedo attack was). Look at the losses suffered on both sides in their attack squadrons, they were horrific.
Don't agree just because the CT is a low population arena and most of the pilots will want to fly fighters. You'll never get the large attack force needed unless everyone on one side flys an attack plane.
5. Enable C-47s from "land" bases to be used as "patrol" planes. Imagine how useful a C-47 at a safe altitude would be for scouring the sea for fleets. Then once you found it, they would have the fuel range to stay on station and give enema fleet locations.
No need. Bases should stay offmap (with associated "armed atols" on map for spawnpoints). Carrier based planes can scout. Set fuelburn at 1 or 1.2
6. CV fleets should have a hardness set to a level that will require...oh...4-6 hits by the biggest bombs the attack planes can carry. This way, only a well planned and coordinated attack will be sucessful, just as back then, peacemeal attacks wont work.
CVs and other ships should be set at "MA" hardness. Turn them - shoot the guns ... leave the hardness setting to norm.
Swastikas suck. :D
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The only TBM available is a late war variant.
Is the TBM fixed yet?
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I've seen no patch. It's a mystery how it porked itself after having been used so long anyhoo, eh? I suspect an arena setting was the culprit all along.
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Originally posted by CurtissP-6EHawk
Isreal is God's chosen country. Be Damned any whom goes against it!
I think a Swastika tattoed on my bellybutton would be less offensive than this statement.
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Its in the Bible, Bug!
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So .. then .. like ... this thread in the CT forum took ... like ... a religious debate turn .... and it started a Jihad .... and ....
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lol, wait till you see where it goes next!! I hear Sun-N-Fun fly-in was last week!!!!!!!!!! I saw a modified T-6 fly over the airport. Green with a torpedo and red meatBall!!
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I have no opinion on this matter.
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Originally posted by TheBug
I think a Swastika tattoed on my bellybutton would be less offensive than this statement.
Nah.....way to easy. :rofl
Agree with Grits, this horse is "over tenderized" as it is.
If Gear wants a Swastika in his Avatar and Bug wants one tattoed on his "posterior" that is their business - big fat harry deal. I am sure it will not be the end of Western Civilization as we know it and AH's Offices will not be burned to the ground during a raid by the ATF.
IMO (and I will probibaly regret saying it) the swastika should be in the game and on the tail of every German plane because it is "HISTORICAL" - it was on the real aircraft during WW2. Not because it stands for anything in particular. I realize that to some people it is distasteful and in some countries it is flat against the law to display it BUT no swastika ever killed ANYONE. It's those people that used it as a symbol of hate and to further their own ends of a Master Race and World Domination. Groups use all kinds of symbols for that - not just the swastika.
I notice not alot of people have a problem with the "Hammer and Sickle" or Red Star of Communism on the Russian planes. If you want to get right down to it the Communists of Russia, China, North Korea, Vietnam and others have killed off enough of their own people (plus many othes) to make the Nazi's look like a bunch of rank amatures.
Just my opinion. The "PC" crowd will have to deal with that as well. ;)
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Hell, like I said ... I could care less. I just found all the "mystic Indian good luck - read a book you ingnant tards - I'm in my happy place" bs kinda funny. :D
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Both Grits & Arlow hve a good grasp on what this wole thred was supposed to be about,and ya never know about a cv setup until someone sets one up and trys it out.After all it could be no worse then some of those "What If" setups.
BTW Well put Jester. Let's not forget all the things that the japs did to the POW's(i.e. experimental surgery on living POW's while they where awake),but those are not as well known as what the germans did.http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/ (http://www.centurychina.com/wiihist/)
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Thanks, Gear. I like to see possibilites in everything. Even if it takes a few experiments to get it working.
And somebody's gotta be the bad guy! I kinda like others being devoted to it. Let's me play "hero." :D
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Originally posted by Jester
Nah.....way to easy. :rofl
I'm glad thoughts of my bellybutton brings pleasure to you Jester.
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Originally posted by TheBug
I'm glad thoughts of my bellybutton brings pleasure to you Jester.
Nah, got me way wrong there sailor boy - try P6EHawk - I heard a rumor he swung that way. Must be all the time in the Spitfire. ;)
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...I think there should be NO[/i] swastikas on IJN planes. Horsemeat hamburgers anyone?
Originally posted by Arlo
Neh. We can fudge it a little. The only TBM available is a late war variant. Sub the 5s for the 2. Sub the FM2 for the F4F-4.
The "late" war variant we have is virtually identical to the original in every meaningful way, the more important factor is they were not available in May '42, but they are still a suicide plane and in real life as a torpedo bomber performed marginally (if at all) better than the TBD, it was only when they stopped using it as a torpedo bomber that the TBM earned its reputation as a great plane. To use later versions of planes when we have the correct ones is just wrong for any reason, and unnecessary in this case. I point to the last '42 Slot we ran. Look how long you could park a CV fleet right on the BEACH at an enema base, subjected to repeated suicide attacks from the "superior" USN planes and it did not get killed. I know, I personally parked the IJN fleet at A40 several times and it would stay there for hours sometimes before it died. The perceived need to protect the IJN fleets from the "superior" USN attack aircraft is....um...somewhat exaggerated IMO. Is it as easy to kill a TBM in an A6M2 as it is to kill a C-47 in a 190A8 or a 110G2? No, but that is no reason to put '43 planes in a May '42 set when we have the correct ones.
Don't agree just because the CT is a low population arena and most of the pilots will want to fly fighters. You'll never get the large attack force needed unless everyone on one side flys an attack plane.
I hate to be blunt, but so what? If this setup ran and CV fleets only got sunk once or twice during the week when squads were on to provide the necessary numbers and organization to sink one then so be it, thats as it should be. One of the most irritating aspects of AH (in all arenas) is the ability for one (insert your favorite type) tard to have the ability to have an impact. For anything of relevance to happen it should require at least a modicum of planning and organization, not just "im gonna auger-bomb the CV!"
No need. Bases should stay offmap (with associated "armed atols" on map for spawnpoints). Carrier based planes can scout. Set fuelburn at 1 or 1.2
OK, good idea. SBD's were "scout/bombers" anyway weren't they?
CVs and other ships should be set at "MA" hardness. Turn them - shoot the guns ... leave the hardness setting to norm.
Mmmm, OK I can live with that.
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ya grits fine with that except that the type 99-1 cannon rounds were modelled incorrectly causing the A6M2 driver to have to get within D150 for them to be effective. the defensive armament on all bombers TBM & SBD included are rediculously overmodelled so the end result is typically at best 1 TBM per 120 magazine and a pilot wound minimum for most axis flyers. this equals to *hmmm whats going on in the MA this week, or gee I haven't checked out H2H in a while*. when thinking about set ups we need to take those very frustrating factors into consideration. I will not participate in any scenarios that feature the A6M2 or the 109E. I'm completely convinced I'm not alone in that decision.
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Originally posted by storch
ya grits fine with that except that the type 99-1 cannon rounds were modelled incorrectly causing the A6M2 driver to have to get within D150 for them to be effective.
I'm not so sure about that, I've read many accounts of how surprized Zeke pilots were at how ineffective their 20mm rounds were against US aircraft. There is no doubt you have to get very close for them to be effective, but I had 50 something kills in the A6M2 last '42 Slot and I'm no hotshot thats for sure. I read one account (I forget who it was, maybe Nishizawa) of a Zeke pilot unloading his entire 20mm ammo load into a B-17 doing recon over Rabaul and it just flew away, much to his amazement.
the defensive armament on all bombers TBM & SBD included are rediculously overmodelled so the end result is typically at best 1 TBM per 120 magazine and a pilot wound minimum for most axis flyers.[/b]
I agree that all buff gunners are overmodeled, beyond rediculous, (and this aggravates the A6M2's weak gun package), but it is what we have. I dont think that justifies adding a late '43-early'44 plane in a '42 setup.
this equals to *hmmm whats going on in the MA this week, or gee I haven't checked out H2H in a while*. when thinking about set ups we need to take those very frustrating factors into consideration. I will not participate in any scenarios that feature the A6M2 or the 109E. I'm completely convinced I'm not alone in that decision. [/B]
My dislike of late war VVS sets is well known, but some love them, even LW pilots, they feel its a "challenge" while I feel its a slaughter. This set is not as lopsided as Hungary/Kurland IMO, but I think I am in the minority in that belief. To each his own I guess.
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Originally posted by storch
ya grits fine with that except that the type 99-1 cannon rounds were modelled incorrectly causing the A6M2 driver to have to get within D150 for them to be effective. the defensive armament on all bombers TBM & SBD included are rediculously overmodelled so the end result is typically at best 1 TBM per 120 magazine and a pilot wound minimum for most axis flyers. this equals to *hmmm whats going on in the MA this week, or gee I haven't checked out H2H in a while*. when thinking about set ups we need to take those very frustrating factors into consideration. I will not participate in any scenarios that feature the A6M2 or the 109E. I'm completely convinced I'm not alone in that decision.
1v1 ... sure .. it's a chore. But I've taken down a TBM with a zeke-2 and had plenty of rounds left (blew him into a fireball even). It took about 6 or so oblique passes - but the last one apparently hit him in his vitals. Of course I also had a fuel leak and had to rtb. Had the guy in the TBM been able to put a few more rounds in me it may have gone the other way. Buff guns are indeed tough to deal with. Too tough? Depends on who's behind them. Armor over-modeled? Neh. Half my passes went too wide.
Point being ... players may complain about things "they know to be true" based on their own experiences but that doesn't really make it true. Even if a half dozen of them get together and go "yeah ... yeah man ... it's porked ... my experiences match yours!" That doesn't really mean anything. A post from Pyro or HiTech or Skuzzy saying it's porked and they're either working on it or it can't be fixed is about all I'll accept. I've seen too many complaints about porkage that I've proven wrong on my end.
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Originally posted by Grits
OK, good idea. SBD's were "scout/bombers" anyway weren't they?
Sure were. And they have decent speed. They can stay in the air alot longer than TBMs too.
:DSwastikas are for kids!
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Originally posted by Shane
yeah, right.
nice spin, nazi admirer.
what does this have to do with the subject at hand. he is talking about a combat simulation and you want to get racist. hitler was wrong, but holding grudges against germans is the same as holding grudges against the jews for crucifying christ.
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and they can turn with the zeke and get you coming or going.
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Originally posted by enemyace
what does this have to do with the subject at hand. he is talking about a combat simulation and you want to get racist. hitler was wrong, but holding grudges against germans is the same as holding grudges against the jews for crucifying christ.
Oh ... does this have "confusion" written all over it! :D
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Originally posted by storch
and they can turn with the zeke and get you coming or going.
Does this mean the SBD is on your long list of planes you hate to fight against? ;)
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Arlo, I'm beggin you, Storch is being civil, please dont provoke him.
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Originally posted by Jester
IMO (and I will probibaly regret saying it) the swastika should be in the game and on the tail of every German plane because it is "HISTORICAL" - it was on the real aircraft during WW2. Not because it stands for anything in particular. I realize that to some people it is distasteful and in some countries it is flat against the law to display it BUT no swastika ever killed ANYONE. It's those people that used it as a symbol of hate and to further their own ends of a Master Race and World Domination. Groups use all kinds of symbols for that - not just the swastika.
The problem - that you forget something.
You forget what is the meaning of it symbol:
Holocaust, Aushwitz, Treblinka, Sobibor - etc. - the list is too long.
I do not know how any normal human can put it in its avatar.
And if you forget it............. the nation that forget its past doen't have future.........
I don't think more can be said...... if you can't understand it now probably you will never be able to understand what does it means.
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The thig about this set up is that it would force both sides to do longrange recon,and with no radar coverage then the element of suprise would be a great advantage.So if you stop and think about it this could be a very relistic simulation of what went on during that period( or atleast I hope so).:)
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do you mean that one of the toxic twins is picking a fight with me again grits? I ignore their posts and I squelch them when I play as they seldom have anything edifing or intelligent to add to any discussion. Don't worry I won't become involved in that behavior any more.
Artik, objection noted. you are within your reason. please let it go now.
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I'm not taking sides Storch, I actually like all three of you (if you can beleive that), I have not yet found anybody I dislike in AH. I just dont want to see the good discussion about Coral Sea get derailed.
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Originally posted by artik
The problem - that you forget something.
And if you forget it............. the nation that forget its past doen't have future.........
Like maybe a nation that builds walls and creates ghettos??
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Originally posted by storch
No comments from arlo required on this one either.
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I don't need any flames from the toxic twins.
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there you go, can't you just leave things be??
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do you mean that one of the toxic twins is picking a fight with me again grits? I ignore their posts and I squelch them when I play as they seldom have anything edifing or intelligent to add to any discussion. Don't worry I won't become involved in that behavior any more.
No Grits ... Storch doesn't get to have it both ways. When he made a poopoo and cried about "being addressed in a forum" all the time, then ran to Skuzzy and cried about it, THEN baited for more after it subsided ... well that just shows he craves the attention and thinks he can give and not take now.
Cause and effect. He ain't figured it out yet.
But you're my buddy and I've passed the ball. Let's you and I see how long Storch can hold onto it. He supposedly "has me squelched" and all. I'll give it a good week. If he can make it that far, then maybe he's over it. ;)
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Honestly, I don't remeber how the pissy attitudes came into being but I would like to see them ended. it's retarded on my part to allow them to continue. so until a little time passes i can ignore the personal flames.
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Originally posted by Arlo
No Grits ... Storch doesn't get to have it both ways. When he made a poopoo and cried about "being addressed in a forum" all the time, then ran to Skuzzy and cried about it, THEN baited for more after it subsided ... well that just shows he craves the attention and thinks he can give and not take now.
Like I told Storch, I'm not gonna take sides, I like you, Slash, and Storch too, but I dont think this personal feud helps the CT forum in any way.
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AHEM!
ok ... starting now :D
Yes I think this set's worth developing. But it'll take some work. The planeset might have to be tweaked though, Grits. I can't see the dedicated axis pilots accepting the TBM (or even SBD) unless some sort of concession is made in their behalf from what's been typed here in this thread alone.
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Originally posted by Jester
Nah, got me way wrong there sailor boy - try P6EHawk - I heard a rumor he swung that way. Must be all the time in the Spitfire. ;)
Aw man, what I do now?
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Originally posted by Arlo
Oh ... does this have "confusion" written all over it! :D
sorry, i got deep, in the future i will t a l k S L O W E R for you:aok
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Originally posted by enemyace
sorry, i got deep, in the future i will t a l k S L O W E R for you:aok
Wasn't nearly as deep as you "think." ;)
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I ignore their posts and I squelch them when I play as they seldom have anything edifing or intelligent to add to any discussion. Don't worry I won't become involved in that behavior any more.
You go girl.
one of the toxic twins
Like Steven Tyler and Joe Perry? Can you sing Arlo....oh wait... forget I asked. For the love of God dont sing anymore on vox:D
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Yeah, the only problem I have with Arlo is Vox singin'. :D
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It is truly awful.:D
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I'll have you both know that I gradeeated top of the class in vox singin'!
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A class of one no doubt. :p