Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: AKcurly on April 19, 2004, 05:52:25 AM
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I'm not sure I understand the mechanism which causes players to change sides in significant numbers.
I think most of the squads are fairly stable -- they stay with one country or perhaps rotate on a monthly basis.
So Hitech/Pyro, how about drastically altering the perk equation? Tonight at one time, there were approximately 260 rooks, 150 bishops and 110 knights.
Under extreme circumstances such as those, the knights should have been flying 262/F4U4s/Tempests for free!
An similar modification should be made for perk points earned.
If you switched sides simply to create an imbalance and you're seeing nothing but enemy 262s and Tempests, maybe they'll switch back when possible, or even better, think twice before they create an imbalance.
curly
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110 knights? That's an awfully generous estimation...
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been a knit for quite a while... don't mind the numbers but when the radar is down and the fuel is porked I just go to the CT or log.. allmost as bad is if there are no fights except with rooks... very close to.... no fights. There humge numbers have given them a horde mindset.. they don't feel comfortable coming down unless there is onlyu one low con or... three of their buddies are allready on him.
That I really can't figure out... It would seem to be boring as hell to me fighting over scraps and never fighting enough to get or stay sharp.
lazs
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Yeah Lazs is right. There are a few decent rook pilots out there. Is it really frustrating when your country mates act the way they do?
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Limit arena size to 450 and offer a second arena for the overflow. It has already proven to work. But without knowing Server structure at AH may not be possible. Two arenas will allow differnt maps at the same time..
IKON
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Originally posted by 1K0N
Limit arena size to 450 and offer a second arena for the overflow. It has already proven to work. But without knowing Server structure at AH may not be possible. Two arenas will allow differnt maps at the same time..
IKON
this could solve many issues in one.
1: 150 per side max
2: Less lag
3: small maps will "still work" at prime time.
4: many more.....
but what it does do is split people up from there squads etc and id be bloody annoyed if i cant get in for squad night etc.....
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my squad prohibits us from country jumping
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Originally posted by Overlag
this could solve many issues in one.
1: 150 per side max
2: Less lag
3: small maps will "still work" at prime time.
4: many more.....
but what it does do is split people up from there squads etc and id be bloody annoyed if i cant get in for squad night etc.....
Valid point, its exactly what happened when done before...you would have to wait for awhile for users to log to get on to squad night..
IKON
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I switch to the smallest country under these circumstances. I switched to nits but one guy switching isn't going to make a difference.
It would be nice if the game wouldn't allow a person to switch to a country that had say.... 50 more logged in people than the second most populated country.
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I think HT could tinker with it until the sheep come home and still not make people happy. Fixing the Rook numbers situation would then just throw something else out of whack.
A few months ago, my old squad switched to Rooks from Bish. I didn't dig it because of the hordes and competition for a kill.
Anyway, I always assume Sunday is going to be like that, let them roll, we'll get them back the rest of the week. If the Bish and the Knits would get smart and work together on Sundays against Rooks, it would correct the situation as well and benefit both Knits and Bish.
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Originally posted by 1K0N
Limit arena size to 450 and offer a second arena for the overflow. It has already proven to work. But without knowing Server structure at AH may not be possible. Two arenas will allow differnt maps at the same time..
IKON
Not going to happen. It unreasonably restricts the choices of a participant. For example, all members of a squad possibly couldn't fly together.
curly
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IMO the emphasis of the game has been placed on acquiring points rather than having realy cool battles. Sure its ideal to live & land after a great fight. But dying in a great fight is more enjoyable than flying in a horde & never risking death at all, for me anyway.
I didnt start playing the game so I could "earn points" or "take bases" I started playing so I could have the most stimulating air combat simulation I could find. For me 20-50 players taking a base from 5-10 players is not at all stimulating.
Horde rhymes with Bored. Nuff said
A_Clown
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Well, the kind of formula I had in mind would be something like this. Let
avg=(rook# + knight# + bish#)/3
Perk Mult = e^((1/10)*(country# - avg))
With 250 rooks, 150 bish, 110 knights, the Perk Mult would be
e^((1/10)*(250-170))=2980
e^((1/10)*(150-170))=0.135
e^((1/10)*(110-170))=0.002
Assuming a base cost of 260 perk points for a me-262, it would cost
rook 260*2980 = 775049 perk points
bish 260*0.135 = 35
knight 260*0.002 = 0.64
Maybe the country switching bastiges would think twice before facing everyone one flying tempests.
curly
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LMAO Curly, i'm all for it.
Though I think that number of bases owned should factor in somewhere.
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Damn whats happened to this game...
When I left it was rooks in the bucket.. now its someone else??!!
Shame its not the bish.
Oh well, nice to have some #'s for a change +)
SKurj
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Isn't Sunday night rook night ??
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this is very unusual look at the number of knights on
funny thing is an hour earlier we were out numbered big time:rofl
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/357_1082428925_ahss0.jpg)
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OMFG CAN HTC SORT OUT KNIGHTS NUMBER ADVANTAGE PLEASE!!! THEY ALWAYS HAVE MORE NUMBERS! ARRG OMG WTF OMG FFS!
:rofl :lol :p
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More Rooks = More Targets :)
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This isnt going away...for nearly 8 months the Rooks were in the proverbial BUCKET....and now that tide has turned.
Also, for christ sake...has noone figured out that Rooks have a huge number of squad opps on Sunday nights? I mean, I see these posts each and every monday...ya'll do understand right?
Currently Knits have a significant nurmerical advantage....
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I agree with lasersailor. The perks should be based on bases
owned.
Based on manning, it does not account for 2 smaller countrys gangbanging one.
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Originally posted by Overlag
OMFG CAN HTC SORT OUT KNIGHTS NUMBER ADVANTAGE PLEASE!!! THEY ALWAYS HAVE MORE NUMBERS! ARRG OMG WTF OMG FFS!
no we dont we are usually outnumbered by like 100 players
:rofl :lol :p
:confused:
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
:confused:
sar·casm (särkzm)
n.
A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.
The use of sarcasm. See Synonyms at wit1.
it was a joke......hence the smiles
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rgr:D
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
rgr:D
being a former knight i know how they get treated :(
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Originally posted by lazs2
been a knit for quite a while... don't mind the numbers but when the radar is down and the fuel is porked I just go to the CT or log..
Which is why there should be no central radar station. Each base's radar should work independently of the other bases. Instead, the "country radar" should be a Spitfire factory ala Air Warrior.
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Originally posted by Overlag
being a former knight i know how they get treated :(
been a knight the whole time and am used to getting pummled by the rooks and then the bish feels good to finally have the advantage, although i would perfer people not to side hop just becuase the numbers are greater or less, should be downright illegal, like tratior they should be shot:mad:
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gimme a break knits. bish have it just as bad as you with number situation, and we deal with both knits and the rooks continually gangin, so stop your whinin. Rooks usually reset due to numbers yes, you knits are miffed cause second place stinks? Bish get there bellybutton handed to them regularly.
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Originally posted by jaxxo
gimme a break knits. bish have it just as bad as you with number situation, and we deal with both knits and the rooks continually gangin, so stop your whinin. Rooks usually reset due to numbers yes, you knits are miffed cause second place stinks? Bish get there bellybutton handed to them regularly.
Bish+Knight United!!!!
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It is my belief that most have two accounts to jump to a side that is winning. If HTC forced side balancing, they would lose out on all that money. That would be a bad business decision.
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The rooks were in the bucket for so many months in a row that I quit AH because of it. You can only fight 10:1 for so long and then you get bored.
I'd be happy to see bish stay in the bucket for 8-12 months..
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ok i guess were are all feeling outnumbered! ecept the rooks but it works out i guess!
i mean theres usually a couple nights that the knights out number the others and the same for the rooks and the bish, i guess it just depends on what squad nights the majority of sqauds get on:D
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
...should be downright illegal, like tratior they should be shot:mad:
ehehe, traitors to a make believe country in a video game.
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Originally posted by Furious
ehehe, traitors to a make believe country in a video game.
well not really shot but how bout this you need to give up 500 fighter perks to change country
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Originally posted by BigGun
Bish+Knight United!!!!
:aok :D
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Hmm what to say. I have seen two problems reguarding numbers. 1st, huge disparities in numbers (by over 50) does create a significant imbalance which leads to one country rolling over another due to the horde mentality. Some people see fighting in a horde as fighting over scraps and get bored, others see it as safety in numbers and an easy way to get their stats up from vulching. There are some people out there that will not fly in an area unless they are surrounded by 2 or 3 buddies.
The other side to this coin is the overall way a particular country, squad or group of people conduct it's battles or attack strategies. I have seen the Knights kick butt when they are out numbered by 20 or more people and I have seen the Knights get their butts kicked when we have the numbers. Which tells me that excluding huge number disparities, its about tactics and team work. I've seen squads post missions and have 20 people join only to give up and quit, leaving other people hanging out to dry because they met a little opposition and didn't want to ruin their stats and ranking. I've seen 15 people fight over a base with minimal opposition for hours only to have the USMC/ TFW squad come in and take care of business and takeing the base in 10 minutes or take a neighboring base with the same level of opposition with half the people in 15 or 20 minutes. I've seen a squad fight over a base for hours and not only do they not take the base, they lose the base that they were upping from. It comes down to prioritizing targets, coordinating a defense or an offense, using your head for something other than a place to park your head set on. I have watched map after map that the Knights like to concentrate in the middle and for the most part pay no attention to the flanks. The Bishops and the Rooks have seemed to notice this and have concentrated their efforts in attack ing our flanks. They usually capture 3 or more bases before the Knights decide that maybe they should defend the flanks and as soon as some one with experience and half a brain comes on country channel and tries to offer some advise on what could be done to stop the offense or take the base quicker and with less effort they are ignored and people seem to do the exact opposite out of spite because they are offended that any one is trying to tell them what to do. I've seen all too aften people who are too busy flying in their hordes to go after the stragglers who are out porking bases or investigate a flashing base to see if it's an noe mission or GV attack. Some people haven't learned how this game works and either pork targets that don't need porking or don't pork targets that need porking. People haven't learned the difference between defensive and offensive porking and why or why not a specific target is or isn't proked. All these things play a factor to some degree as to what effect numbers will have on the game on any given day at any given time. To boil things down if you don't work as a team, prioritize targets and keep tabs on what the enemy is doing, unless you out number the enemy by 100 people, it doesn't matter how many people are online your going to lose.
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the side with the numbers "wins" the war. that is all there is to the "strat" in AH face and quit pretending otherwise.
now, I really don't care who "wins" ... I care how the "win" comes about... if it means loss of radar and fuel and hordes of fluffs and sky accountants taking sissy little kicks at anyone who would dare to up from one of the capped fields... well...
that's no fun.
lazs
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It's about Quality, not quantity.
So what the Rooks have numbers, it cracks me up how long it usually takes them to roll the map.
If you are serious about stopping the rook horde, then Knit and Bish gotta work together a little bit. Here's the general idea:
On any given Sunday -
1. Bish hit Rooks
2. Knits hit Rooks
3. Bish and Knits do not hit each other.
As juicy as those undefended B or K bases look across your border, leave them alone.
If Rooks have 275 players on and BisNits have a combined 350 players on, guess who loses.
Squad CO's can make it happen.
If not, just take up your fav bomber killer and get it on.
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Actaully bish and knits tried the joint effort agianst the rookies few months back. Overall it worked quite well although there was still the odd few who went their own way.
Anyway the result was once the rooks realized what was happening their numbers dropped by about 100 in 15 mins...maybe a lesson here?
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actaully bish and knits tried the joint effort agianst the rookies few months back. Overall it worked quite well although there was still the odd few who went their own way.
Anyway the result was once the rooks realized what was happening their numbers dropped by about 100 in 15 mins...maybe a lesson here?
rooks dont like fighting?:aok
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actaully bish and knits tried the joint effort agianst the rookies few months back. Overall it worked quite well although there was still the odd few who went their own way.
Anyway the result was once the rooks realized what was happening their numbers dropped by about 100 in 15 mins...maybe a lesson here?
Exactly.
Which is why it's up to the players, not HT or Skuzzy, to do something about it.
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Yeah such a firggen shame.. I logged in last night to find the rooks outnumbered by both knits and bish...
This has to stop!!
SKurj
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I think the problem is the map reset incentive. That's what causes squads to unite and roll over the opposition. And to some it's more fun to gang than getting ganged, so they switch sides and things get even worse. I doubt if HiTech will change anything, but maybe we can.
Why not ignore a country when it has numbers and starts gang banging everything in sight? If the Rooks have numbers, the Bish and Knits can fight each other and ignore them. Let them sweep through the arena and have their precious reset. The map will change and things might even out. Maybe the Rooks (and others) will get bored with the squad ops arena gang banging stupidity if no one plays with them. What's happening now is ruining a great game.
grizzly
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No solution at all to this problem. Whatever it is, its not gonna work - or, not gonna work fast enough to make a difference.
Numbers fluctuate between countries during a span of certain time. One must understand this as a social phenomenon than just a simple game.
In the old days where the prime time arena was like 200~300 people max, everybody knew everbody. Every squad knew everysquad. To the problems of one side the pilots of other countries empathized. The community was tied a lot closer to each and every member, and thus self-regulation and organization was usually enough to balance the meager problems concerning pilot numbers.
The problem is, AH has grown out of that stage.
If the "good ol' arena" we all cherished was a small farming town, the current AH is like a large metropolitan city.
As the numbers grew, so did the anonymity.
Notice how channel 1 banter is a lot more hostile and severe than it used to be, not to mention frequent. In the old days, everybody knew everybody. The chances are that human beings are usually nice to someone they know. However, as the community and the arena grows larger a lot of people you don't know are playing the game with you. You feel less obligated to help them play a fun game, than emphasize on things such as internet etiquettes, manners, voluntary balancing of numbers, etc etc.
It can also be said that the three different countries, and the pilots that inhabit it, are a lot more competitive towards others, and also more oriented towards the loyalty to his own country than common good.
It's like the formation of Nationalism between the 16th~20th centuries. In a sense, the MA is indeed a "war". Ruthless attrition is what wins the war. Huge numbers advantage doesn't mean a "terrible game for fellow gamers" like it used to. It merely means "an effective display of power to crush the opposition". More and more people are anonymous to each other, and the spirit of social and communal interaction is usually limited to the strict borders of one's own country.
The veterans 'lived' at a different age. Now, the arena easily goes over 600 people at weekends. About 60~70% of the current AH population are 'newcomers'. Basically, AH doesn't "belong" to "us" anymore - whether we like it or not.
The more average gamer, who recently joined AH, has no prior affiliations with other squads and other countries. He comes into the MA, a new society, and he naturally attaches himself to the people that immediately greet them. Why should he care about the other country or their pilots, who are no more than mere enemies that should be shot down? Sacrificing his current ties and relationships with the people he know, within his current country?
....
Now, in a real world society, as such problems grow, people come to realization that a common rule is needed. They gather around and discuss things, come to a consensus, and set out some things which should be changed.
However, since no player has any kind of authority over the society in a game, the power to change things for the common good is solely concentrated to the developers, and they alone can make changes that matter.
However, since the HTC staff has to look out for people of all three countries, their decision can be only influenced by a unignorable, huge public opinion. They'd definately not make quick decisions.
Another thing to consider, is that any sort of "changes" made to the MA concerning numbers, has a high chance of regulating or limiting certain freedoms the player used to have.
Basically the numbers problem is a freedom problem - where the individual freedom of certain players of a certain country, in a collective level, unfortunately hurts the rights of other players of other countries.
..
So any fundamental change would have to come in this order:
1. Almost all members of AH players have to start realizing that certain aspects of their choices should be limited, or reconsidered, for the goal of common good.
2. The collective opinion and consensus concerning the common good, has to be addressed and requested to the developers.
3. Certain aspects of reality concerning warring factions, should be requested to be implemented in the game, following the above defined procedures - basic organization, difference in operating sectors, a system that might limit the choice of a players country according to numbers, etc etc etc...
..
Basically all three of above must condition must be fulfilled for anything to change. People must collect the overall opinion of their countrymates, it must be addressed to the developers, and they must also come up with an alternative method to implement in case the change is sanctioned.
Dividing arenas might work, but its basically a retro solution - sort of like, "if a metropolitan city has problems, then drive it back to the stone age so the people are all split up again".
...
So, are we willing to accept the consequences of what we ask for? I'm guessing not.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Actaully bish and knits tried the joint effort agianst the rookies few months back. Overall it worked quite well although there was still the odd few who went their own way.
Anyway the result was once the rooks realized what was happening their numbers dropped by about 100 in 15 mins...maybe a lesson here?
I remeber an instance where we tried this with Knits and they renigged on the setup and took bases while we were a couple bases deep behind bases they were supposed to hit.
The only problem with this type coalition is that even if you get opposing country squads involved there are enough of the unattached players who won't or don't get the word and they continue to hit bases during the cease fire causing it to look like one side was purposely taking advantage of the opportunity created.
Sounds to me like for this to work each country needs a Commander-in-Chief. In that case I would like to nominate Moto61 a natural Warrior, Diplomat, Leadrer if there ever was one. :rofl :rofl
Moto61
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cease fire
:rolleyes: and :rolleyes: also :lol and oh yeah :rofl but really ;) I have to say :p its just so :aok ghay
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Originally posted by 68DevilM
my squad prohibits us from country jumping
silly.
you let virtual pixels and cyber personalities define how you can play the game?
how good of a sheep impression can you do?
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Originally posted by Kweassa
If the "good ol' arena" we all cherished was a small farming town, the current AH is like a large metropolitan city.
yep, the "good ol' arena" was full of inbreds.
:rofl
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I'm suprised anyone still cares about side numbers and reseting maps. At the time I was Rook when we were constantly outnumberd for months I use to enjoy the abundance of targets. And that was prior to the perk balancing.
...-Gixer
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I noticed on Pizza the imbalance is that there are more buildings than players!!
Though its good to see the players rising up against the horde!!
Don't think anyone can deny that there are more buildings under fire at any minute in pizza than enemy players.
SKurj
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Well, fortunately, summer is almost here.
That means that for me, Sundays will soon become a ritual of going downtown by the pier here in Huntington, drinking cold beers, getting tan, and hanging out with about 10,000 hot chicks all day long.
Everyone is invited, no sheep necessary.
What Rook horde?:aok
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Originally posted by Kweassa
People must collect the overall opinion of their countrymates, it must be addressed to the developers, and they must also come up with an alternative method to implement in case the change is sanctioned.
Dividing arenas might work, but its basically a retro solution - sort of like, "if a metropolitan city has problems, then drive it back to the stone age so the people are all split up again"..
I don't agree and I'll try to explain why. Whatever solution or game design is inacted, the community at large can't be expected to take part in this process. The reason is that 90+% of them are not aware of the problems or even care. All they know is that players gang up on them, the countries are unblanced, and that lag is often a serious problem. And none know much of game and community dynamics. That's where the experts come in. It's not an insignificant issue... quite complex actually. A person can earn a PHD on this subject.
One should not ignore past lessons learned for fear of a retro solution. There are more than 15 years of experience on this subject. What of the 600 or so players we see each night? When AW was provided by AOL we saw 2000 players each night, and many more on prime time weekends.
Any MMPOL game must at some time look at the need to separate the community with multiple arena choices. Even though one can squeeze 1000 players into an arena, multiple arenas will eventually be required if the number of players surpasses that. Multiple arenas may be more a matter of balance than principle. Other factors besides a united player base need be considered. For example, multiple arenas provide players choices. If one arena is unbalanced, or the bases reduced to a point where it's not fun, players can go elsewhere. Arenas can be used to feature plane sets, war periods or the European, Western Front and Pacific theaters... more choices.
Of course, one must wonder why players don't voluntarily opt for the Combat Arena. I'm not sure, I don't do it myself, but I suspect players are like lemmings attracted to the masses. Fighter Ace (the last time I looked in there) has this feature... a massive furball arena (actually a series of small ones made to look like a single arena in which the computer assigns players to areas). There's a mode where players are released in the air and can dive into the action below. It's a mindless melee that grows old fast. But if you give the players a choice of an easy, uncomplicated entry to a game, they will mass there, get bored, and leave.
And one other thing. The primary advanrtage offered by MMPOL games is players vs players and the ability for them to determine their own game play, objectives and rules. A box game must provide this and it soon gets boring, which is the reason for the short life span of even the best boxed games. MMPOL game providers need to captitalize on this opportunity and not try to design the game play... for example the arena reset objective. MMPOL game play should be limited only t6o the players' imagination, which can seem infinite. A built in objective or game design can limit this imagination and result in boredom ("you must play the game this way because that's how HiTech designed it"). The result is something like the endless landgrabbing, gang banging, mud moving, fight avoiding, HOing free for all hamster wheel we see in AH.
grizzly
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"War is Hell" :D
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
:rolleyes: and :rolleyes: also :lol and oh yeah :rofl but really ;) I have to say :p its just so :aok ghay
discovered last night that morpheous is a side jumper;)
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ohh yeah two nights ago the knights controled the feild but now the bish are rolling thru everybody with the most feild and numbers
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Apply current perk balancing theory to points = problem solved.
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Must have been a good answer?