Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: MaddogJoe on April 19, 2004, 05:25:49 PM
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I have worked on Wldthings reversal, and I'm getting better at, tho not yet as good as he :) The trouble I run into, is highspeed runs on my 6 when I'm high speed.
I fly the 38 alot and love its zoom properties, and tho I'm getting better in one on ones we all know if ya don't finish it quick it ends up as 5 on 1 in the MA :)
In most cases, I'm keeping my 38 fast and using vertical maneuvers to get my enemy to give me the shot I need. However There is alway that high dot that shows up in the middle of the fight. Either I disengage, and run to regain alt to fight the new attacker or the poorer choice, stay in too long on the first to finish him fast then go for the second. This gets me into a possition where I'm fast, but the enemy is just a bit faster making the "WldThing" move not a real option as any turn I make at that speed, so can most.
So when I get greedy, and get myself stuck in this situation, what would you do?
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I'm downloading wldthngs rev clip as I'm typing (internet awful slow today)...anyway without looking at specifically what he's doing I've found that drex's "theory of energy convergance" thingy works almost all the time...obviously it has some limits but if the enemy plane is a bit faster and coming from a bit higher it'll get you out of dodge (1st time around) almost 100% of the time. someone should have a link to the specific article somewhere...
I've posted 4 or 5 films that demonstrate it pretty well, I use it pretty well in clip 2 and 3 in la-5 thread...also in F6, Hog and FM-2 clips somewhere here...FM-2 clip is a pretty pure reversal...bag a greedy la-7 before he can even get out of range...others more defensive in nature...deny the shot, eat up angles and E and move em from there fight to mine....certainly not up to wldthngs standard but pretty easy stuff for most to duplicate.
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Just got done watching wldthngs highlight reel:):)....obviously some exceptional stuff...certainly beyond my ability to combine SA,ACM and gunnery...not to mention typing...all at once.
A couple observations though...
1st, the 2 closest examples to your question are lugs p40 and the 152...both times wldthng has a more optimal setup for what he wants to do...greater speed differential and a more optimal plane...the rest is really great furballing.
He's using a similiar technique but it's really a different application (wldthng or anyone else correct me here if I'm wrong) he's more offensive...he's going nose down a bit (but not always) as he generates an offensive barrel role attack...I'm curious if he'd do the same thing in a 38 there (and get equal results).
Your specifiying your in a high speed fight (at moderate alt) being engaged by another highspeed con coming in). The 38 at high speed is less able to evade then the spit (V?) in the clip...before you can kill the other guy you need to make sure he doesnt get a shot. I'd guess your cutting it a bit to fine.
The 38's dive flaps combined with a nose down turn should deny attacker any shot (as long as he is faster and higher and more or less dead 6)...you wont get the same offensive reversal often...but you will get to fly and fight another 30 sec:)...after that it's on you...
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Thanks for your time and info humble.
I do have a number of your fims on file and have watch them a ton of times. I've also read Drex's comments, but at the time most of the info just flew over my head :) I did print them out and save them, and now having revisted them, understand what he is saying. To my mind it is almost the same move as WldThing, but both his maneuver and Wldthing's count on a large differance in speed.
When in my 38, or any other of the faster planes, if there is a big differance in speed between me and the enemy...meaning I've been caught with my pants down and have burned alot of "E" and and didn't see the enemy in time..... I can do a version of Drex's or Wldthing's maneuver. I say "version" because I don't have the timing down well enough yet to be doing it right, but for the most part I get get "out of plane" enough to spoil the enemy shot. After doing this for 3 or 4 passes, I can equllize the "E" states and start an attack of my own.
My problem is when I'm doing say 300, at 15k, and I have a bogie closing form my 6. I notice him at 3k out, and at the rate of closure he will be in guns range in 5 or 10 seconds.... closing fast enought that Im not going to out run him, but with not such a big differance in speed that I can force an over shot type maneuver as he'll be able to pretty much do what I can at that speed.
In a 190, I could snap roll, yank, repeat untill the enemy gets out of sync because nothing can keep up with a 190's roll rate. This will get me an angle to pull some seperation
What Im looking for is something like that for a P38, or P51, or P47. Whats some of the maneuvers you guys use to break an enemy off your tail, and turn the tables on him in a high speed setting?
Thanks again Humble, and keep those films coming !
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both the P47 nad P38 have good roll rate at high speed and can bleed E as if they are flying though water instead of air.
you can use this to create the needed speeded difference. This is another thing that Drex's low nose turn can help with - keeping the speed up while creating a small initial angle-off to work with.
The next thing is a loaded barrel roll. in loaded I mean that you are pulling hard on the stick while rolling. In p51/47 you can pull the 1st notch of flaps even at high speeds. The speed will go down from 350-400 to the 200-250 range in an istant. If he chooses to play, you're in a rolling scissors.
keep looking at the bandit (usually high 6 view) while rolling and cut throttle as neccery to loose more speed until he's past your 3/9 line. This is assuming that he wants to play the game - else, unload, roll your lift vector a little ahead of him, full throttle and pull for the snapshot as he blows by (comes out like WldThing's move).
he still has to be out of effective gun range to start with.
This is the only example I have ready. I let the 109F4 close on me thinking it's a G6 or G10. I was shocked to find out the mistake when looking at his spinner 100 yards on my 6...
notice, I'm getting desperate and continue the rolling going downward with flaps extended hoping he can't break the speed like I do.
http://fire.prohosting.com/bozon/p47vs109f4_slow.zip
(left click, then leftclick in the new window)
Bozon
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Maddog...
did you take a look at the last la-5 clip...it sounds similiar. The
la-7 is out a long way (5.0 or so)...but if I turn and engage him I'm simply creating an "over/under" fight giving him ample opportunity to capitalize on any mistake I make. Since the la-5 is a better plane than the la-7 in every way but top end speed (and he has that already) I let him in...all the way. I'm certainly no where near the same caliber pilot as wldthing but one thing we have in common...well almost...is timing...notice how close he lets em get in that reversal clip...98% of the guys make the right move...at the wrong time.
You cant do anything to evade a shot at long range, what you can to is determine as quickly as possible what fight you want to fight. Using the la-5 clips as a reference (since I pretty much remember em) in clip 1 I'm E fighting...letting the E value slowly equalize (with me on top of course) till I can tangle my tail (thats that "mini rope" I mentioned to savedsaint in other thread) in a verticle "two circle fight"...If I'd of missed I'd of got out of dodge..
You'll see the F6 from the 2nd clip at end of first before I get nikki...obviously last thing I want isfor F6 to force me to turn back into nikki (why I start spraying nikki with bad sight picture..I need to hit him:eek: )....so I know I'm going to immediately go def with F6...I'd guess wldthing would of done the obiwon thing and waxed him on the reversal...as a mere mortal I'm left to my lesser abilities...notice I'm in a nose down turn till he pulls for shot...then up and around ala drex and we start fighting my fight...amazing how many guys wont back off once they pull the trigger....
On the 3rd the la-7 coming in sounds like your issue...i'm lower, slower and dont have a good choice...so I let him in and evade...I didnt win per se...but I survived...again the key is not evading to soon...one thing i learned from wldthings clip is i'm to early on my barrel role by ~150 yds or so...not alot but enough.
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bozon...wouldnt un zip for me?
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Could someone point to the clips that y'all are talking about? I flew the 38 when my computer was running...:) and would love more and more 38 films.
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What makes those reversals work is the great speed difference. An enemy on your six with just a small advantage in speed is a lot more dangerous. If someone tries one of those reversals on me, I will cut throttle and let the best man win, but I I won't overshoot him by a football field, thats for sure. We'll be close and personal.
Its a judo move. Without the great difference in speed, its less effective and could be suicide with someone competent on the throttle and the gun. I'm neither, but seek out those types of reversals to get better. Thing is if you're behind and have more E, you are winning. You have all the laws of physics on your side. You just have to make the e difference a knife and not a sledge hammer.
One of those guys makes a pass and sees what he's doing but escapes. The next pass he should have chopped and cleaned his clock.
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Originally posted by humble
He's using a similiar technique but it's really a different application (wldthng or anyone else correct me here if I'm wrong) he's more offensive...he's going nose down a bit (but not always) as he generates an offensive barrel role attack...I'm curious if he'd do the same thing in a 38 there (and get equal results).
Well your close, but a minor correction..
The reason i dive down before the actual setup is to gain the additional speed before i reverse the fella.. I figure that if he's coming in with a greater amount of Energy aka Speed, that i need to try to equal the amount. The reason i dont do it everytime is because, sometimes i know how fast the guy is actually closing (A weird 6th sense if you must call it that) .. And i dont require that extra speed. I hope you understood what i typed here.
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Originally posted by MaddogJoe
My problem is when I'm doing say 300, at 15k, and I have a bogie closing form my 6. I notice him at 3k out, and at the rate of closure he will be in guns range in 5 or 10 seconds.... closing fast enought that Im not going to out run him, but with not such a big differance in speed that I can force an over shot type maneuver as he'll be able to pretty much do what I can at that speed.
Basically Nothing if he's closing that fast. Best thing to do is an ordinary Split - S to avoid his guns, he should be making a few passes of BnZ sort, and each pass he makes he will get slower and slower, you should reverse him when your sure he is slow enough so that you can pull off the reversal. Id say go with the 3rd BnZ pass he makes, make sure you bait him onto your 6 and then reverse. If you see that he is pulling away after making his run dont bother reversing, save up your E.
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Wldthing...
thanks, I know exactly what you were saying I just couldnt articulate it properly...utilizing a "similiar action" for a completely different intent. it's clear that your reversal is completely offensive in it's nature ...your manuvering the con into your "kill zone" even while he's "lining you up"...he just doesnt know it...the telltail clue is how close all the planes are to the same spot as you re aqquire them on your front quarter view...uncanny how well you manage the initial variables to consistantly duplicate that same result.
Having utilized the split-s alot my self I found it tends to generate a vertical double circle fight against a good pilot...he counters the split S with a series of tightening hi yoyo's...basically la-5 clip 1...it's a low % fight for an average pilot fighting the under...the advantage of drex's tactic is you can continue to engage the cons interest a significant percentage of the time and actually change the dynamics of the fight...in both clip 2 and 3 the bogies had total control of the fight but actually surrendered significant advantage during the initial pass.
what particualarly appealing about it is it works with both high and low speed differential equally well...i've used it when speed difference on film showed to be only 10-15 mph....like you said that 6th sense on speed comes in to play...as I understand it within certain peramitors (sp?) the higher speed/e plane simply cant convert from lag to lead without losing that speed and surrendering visability...in fact you are untouchable within that profile...obviously you look like a flaming idiot when you misjudge things:confused:
Thanks again for a great clip...one of the best i've ever seen.
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Originally posted by humble
bozon...wouldnt un zip for me?
left click the link, thne left click in the new window.
Bozon
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Thanks for all the info guys. I guess the common factor here... and the one I really seem to be missing... is to nose down to get a bit more speed.
This would help in both Wldthings move... a bit longer on the enemys tail to get the shot after the rversal... and the Drexisum.. to bring the energy state closer to equal.
In the 38 I work most of my moves into the verticle as this is were it excels. I have also found that the flap manever works well to slow the pony and jug down fast... another thing I hate doing, giving up perfectly good "E" :D
Thanks again guys, back to the practic fields !!
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Thanks for all the info guys. I guess the common factor here... and the one I really seem to be missing... is to nose down to get a bit more speed. ...
Actually it's the oppisite maddog (as it relates to drex)...
The bogie has more e to start...by starting a gentle nose down turn the bogie has to follow in a nose down state adding to his E state...as he pulls harder for a shot you tighten your turn and/or throttle back...the con will either black out or lose sight of you under his nose...you then rev the turn and go somewhat vertical...based on the amount of energy convergence you may have a shot similiar to wldthings or you may not. Your using the nose down state to force him to scrub E to avoid the overshoot etc...the better pilots will intuitively go vertical (some kind of hi yoyo) if the evasive is initited to early...you'll notice I let them inside 1500...then slowly turn tighten up as they hit 1200 more at 800 and evade at 600...you need your tail swishing in the water to keep em interested....
Wldthing is optimizing his speed differential vs bogie to produce that constant bogie pop up at ~275 or so (no clue how he does that so consistantly) but he can invariably pick em up in almost the same spot every time on the clip...
Your original Q was what do I do to evade a high speed con closing on my high speed 38 at a rate that precludes my "normal evasives"...
A: initiate a gentle nose down turn as he closes to 1500 yds and tighten incrementally until he breaks off/loses vis/is forced out front. Use tightened turn/throttle/flaps/airbrakes as needed to slow your plane down to force above...
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Originally posted by humble
A: initiate a gentle nose down turn as he closes to 1500 yds and tighten incrementally until he breaks off/loses vis/is forced out front. Use tightened turn/throttle/flaps/airbrakes as needed to slow your plane down to force above... [/B]
Emphasis on loses vis. Do this at 10-15 degrees nose down and watch him closely. At ~D600 you will usually see him start pulling lead, when that happens just do a barrel roll and watch as he passes right below you. You'll get a quick snapshot almost every time. Just be careful, if he doesn't pull hard for a guns solution he is lag turning you and a roll out is going to force you to try for a very hard to get overshoot in the vertical. If you do this maneuver enough you'll just get a "feel" for when he is getting too close to you for a guns solution, and with a well timed barrel roll you'll see 90% of the guys in the MA pass D250 right in front of your nose as they pull up at you and try to get vertical for safty.
-pellik
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Man ... some good stuff going on here !!!
"My problem is when I'm doing say 300, at 15k, and I have a bogie closing form my 6. I notice him at 3k out, and at the rate of closure he will be in guns range in 5 or 10 seconds.... closing fast enought that Im not going to out run him, but with not such a big differance in speed that I can force an over shot type maneuver as he'll be able to pretty much do what I can at that speed."
MDJ ...
If he is closing a 3K gap in 5 to 10 seconds, then I would think that he has much more speed than you ... IMHO
I have been flying the P-39 alot as of late, and in this situation, yes the Split-S is an option, but I hate to give away alt if not needed. I would have turned into him (much like humble describes) as soon as I sensed the rapid rate of closure.
This would cause him to try to slow down to get a decent guns solution, and if he didn't slow down, as he passed, if the rate of separation is fast, then I would break off the turn and go nose down a little to try to get some E and separation back. Now, he has to turn back to engage. If he is smart, then he zoomed to turn alt back into E and at this point is where you try to continue to equalize the E state using the same "turn into him" technique. If he flat turned, then you are getting to equal ground much sooner than he would like.
If the WT film is the one that I am thinking about (Spit V), all his attackers are faster, but not at a rate of closure of 3K in 5 to 10 seconds. If they were, I don't think that he would get the shot as we see in the film until he HAS equalized speed/E a little more due to their sheer speed at the pass. Although WT can do things that make my eyes go wide open ... hehe.
It's a great film and I have made use of that move many times since watching it ... thanks WT. Also, I have used that same move using the P-38, but again, the E states have to be closer than what MDJ describes before a good solid shot can be had.
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cc Slap, basically as i have described above in my reply
he should be making a few passes of BnZ sort, and each pass he makes he will get slower and slower, you should reverse him when your sure he is slow enough so that you can pull off the reversal.
gotta get the bastige slow enough for you to pull it off..
But the major mistake that i see people do is they do a flat turn when im closing in fast, and i position my plane to turn into them and then i let my guns blaze, i will always get a few pings and sometimes thats enough to bring em down.
I always do a Split - S when the con is coming in that fast, my reaction has always been that.. Yes you lose alt, but you wont die hehe
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"I always do a Split - S when the con is coming in that fast, my reaction has always been that.. Yes you lose alt, but you wont die hehe"
Even if you have spied him 3K behind ya ?
I usually use The Spit-S in the "OH-CHIT !!!" situation and my pants are somewhere down by my ankles ... :D
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Thanks for all the great post. It amazes me that you guys can "see" when a bogie goes from lag to lead !!!:eek: I'm lucky if I can guess at which FW it is as they make their run on me !! :D
The timing is certainly a big part of the WT maneuver as well as knowing when you've pulled enough G's to get the bogie to break off his turn so you can pull the barrel roll on him for the shot.
What are you looking for to see when a bogie goes from lag to lead? Is it again the "feel" thing, or are there certain "trail markers" you look for?
SlapShot, my example may have ben a bit off, the timing I'm refering to is if I'm running 350, and the bogies running 375, he's closing fast enough that extending isn't an option as hes going to catch me soon enough, and trying to do a tightening nose low turn to get him to give up the shot and extend to give me the room for a barrel roll type shot isn't going to work as he will most likely be able to stay with any turn I make. In this case what would you try?
Thanks again, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm learning alot here!
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"I always do a Split - S when the con is coming in that fast, my reaction has always been that.. Yes you lose alt, but you wont die hehe"
Even if you have spied him 3K behind ya ?
I usually use The Spit-S in the "OH-CHIT !!!" situation and my pants are somewhere down by my ankles ... :D
O No No, i was saying i would pull of a Split - S in the "O Chit" situation, "He's 1k and closing fast behind me situation"..
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Originally posted by MaddogJoe
Thanks for all the great post. It amazes me that you guys can "see" when a bogie goes from lag to lead !!!:eek: I'm lucky if I can guess at which FW it is as they make their run on me !! :D
The timing is certainly a big part of the WT maneuver as well as knowing when you've pulled enough G's to get the bogie to break off his turn so you can pull the barrel roll on him for the shot.
What are you looking for to see when a bogie goes from lag to lead? Is it again the "feel" thing, or are there certain "trail markers" you look for?
SlapShot, my example may have ben a bit off, the timing I'm refering to is if I'm running 350, and the bogies running 375, he's closing fast enough that extending isn't an option as hes going to catch me soon enough, and trying to do a tightening nose low turn to get him to give up the shot and extend to give me the room for a barrel roll type shot isn't going to work as he will most likely be able to stay with any turn I make. In this case what would you try?
Thanks again, I don't know about anyone else, but I'm learning alot here!
I do a serious Split-S hoping that he didn't follow or a serious break turn. In both of these moves, I would be looking to go into black-out, cause in most instances, if he follows, he will too.
On the Split-S, at the bottom I would hope to aquire him at the end of the black out and if he is still there, off throttle, dive flaps, hard break turn inducing another possible black-out and start the scissors.
On the hard break turn, I would hope to aquire him at the end of the black out and if he is still there, start the scissors.
Bottom line is to do something drastic that is hard to follow hoping for the chance that he loses aquisition.
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ill do a very hard flat turn about 90 degrees, kill thottle and hit dive brake, then roll under and take my original heading and i usually endup about 300 off nmes 6 that was coming very fast on my 6. once im about 1/2 through rolling under i go full throttle with wep. im getting a much better feel for this and have a decent percentage of good things from this. i am blacked out most time, that why it is kinda a feel thing.
~S~
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What are you looking for to see when a bogie goes from lag to lead? Is it again the "feel" thing, or are there certain "trail markers" you look for?
in AH especially with low screen resolution it's very hard to see whether he's pointing behind you or ahead of you.
what I DO see is the geometry of his course:
Is he following my circle? in that case he's in lag persuit and carfully controlling the closure, those are the dangerous pilots.
Is he cutting inside my circle? in that case, he's trying to close fast for a snapshot, and if close, I might be under his nose where he can't see me. This is what you want to see for a good reversal.
Bozon
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There is one tell-tale sign that an enemy is pulling lead on you- his guns. If you're dropping below his nose he will start firing at you, and this means it's slightly after the optimal time to start your roll. For the most part you can judge lead just by looking at your opponent. The profile of his plane will start to change a little when he pulls for lead, you'll see a little more of his belly.
-pellik
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who si wildthing and how do i see his reversal moves help pleses!!!!!!!!:confused:
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Don't forget about the P38's knife fighting capabilities. If you can drag the con into a turn fight, you've got him.
Just use the flaps, and lots of rudder to keep from spinning, and you can out turn a spit V.
I have WT's film downloaded. I've watched it about 15 times so far, and get a bit more out of it each time.
Still woulda lost half those cons, since my gunnery is horrific. Even with a good lead, I tend to use 3 times the ammo for a kill than WT does in that video.
To all you guys who have helped me learn the 38.
Cheers,
Spitter
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Originally posted by WldThing
I always do a Split - S when the con is coming in that fast, my reaction has always been that.. Yes you lose alt, but you wont die hehe
Heh, me too. I will even watch them come from thousands of yards away, and wait till d1.2-1.4 to do it because sometimes they are kind enough to try to follow which can still often end up as an overshoot maneuver.
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THis is a very interesting thread....but where is the film that you guys keep refereing to? Maybe someone could post another link to it? Thanks!
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this is the link to the film WldThing film (http://www.332nd.org/dogs/forHIM/Wldthing.ahf) I don't know if its a AH2 film or not, I don't remember. If its not then you need a ver of AH1 to view it.
I love these kinds of threads. If you can get some of these guys talking about the right things, us newbies can get some great infomation !