Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: beet1e on April 19, 2004, 07:41:35 PM
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My vote is...
... a big fat
NO
I'll save the political rant till a few people have replied.
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You don't get to vote on it, do you?
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Which country is dominating the EU right now?
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Why not?
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Had a quick look at the first 10 or so Articles of the draft constitution - they are only repeating what is already European law anyway.
I'll have to read the whole thing before I decide, but I expect It'll be a curate's egg.
Ravs
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No.
You don't get to vote on it, do you?
We do now. Blair is in such a mess, he's been forced to agree to a referendum on the new constitution. What he'll probably do is schedule it after some of the other Euro countries have held theirs. That way, the constitution is dead before Britain votes on it, so a defeat isn't seen as a blow for Blair.
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Tony Blair is in the process of doing a U-turn on granting a referendum. But he's only likely to do it once he's safely re-elected in 2005. And that's because he knows it would not go his way. He wants a YES vote, but a poll shows that 16% intend to vote YES, 53% to vote NO.
Main country in EU now - probably Germany. Theirs is the biggest economy.
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No.
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Now that I have read about it, I would vote yes based on what I know.
Maybe you'll like the "exit clause" it will contain and vote yes so you can go away :D. Perhaps that referendum should be just about that, you are falling behind already: no Euro and no Schengen, which are both extremely nice.
I'm preparing a Paris-London trip with my girlfriend, and had to remind myself of the fact that I won't have to show ID at the French border or change any money, but will have to do so when entering Britain.
I have been to Portugal, France ot Italy recently and, believe it or not, I felt much less "foreign" than in previous visits, which is somewhat cool.
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No
(because I hate France and I would prefer to sink that nation into the ocean [after moving all its inhabitants to Spain] rather than join them in some weird EU-nation)
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Originally posted by ra
You don't get to vote on it, do you?
As of yesterday suddenly we do......the question is of course what exactly are we going to vote on and that question is going to be very, very carefully framed by the Labour Party to give it the answer it wants to hear.
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you know what? Germany supports Spain and praising the decision about moving the troops from iraq (that's what i've seen in the news today) not sure about France, but i have a strange feeling that they could think similar ( not sure, just a guess).
Now i'm asking - could we rename EU to EUoC ?
oh... Poland is not in EU(oC) yet....
oh... it was about the constitution... hmm... is it so important?
:rolleyes:
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Yes if ...
- we can decapitate the Brit and swedish queen and some other.
- we can pork other economy with the Euro
- the Germano-French ring will rule all (one ring to rule them ...)
- ze brit vill ztart to zpeak a real sprache
- ve vill make regulations abut the vay you zleep in your bett !
How many of those against the EU constitution proposal have read the text ?
Zero or none ?
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Originally posted by straffo
How many of those against the EU constitution proposal have read the text ?
Zero or none ?
hehe funny :)
Have you read EC/EU regulations and/or laws Straffo?
How many do you think has read the EU constitution proposal?
I mean I had to read the Maastricht treaty and teh original EC constitution back in lawschool, and that was about as complicated and horribly...horribly...horribl y...disgustingly boooring as it possibly can be.
I dont think that anyone that doesnt directly work with it would want to read it, and I pity the poor sods who are forced to read it.
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Originally posted by bikekil
you know what? Germany supports Spain and praising the decision about moving the troops from iraq (that's what i've seen in the news today) not sure about France, but i have a strange feeling that they could think similar ( not sure, just a guess).
Now i'm asking - could we rename EU to EUoC ?
oh... Poland is not in EU(oC) yet....
oh... it was about the constitution... hmm... is it so important?
:rolleyes:
How long has the pole dealed with terrorism ?
You started only because the polish governement started to follow blindly the US only because they are brown noser.
I can't figure why we accepted a country like Poland in EU.
You will never act for the communauty as you're just following your interrest... I can wait to see when the Pole will start to whine for EU money to buy some US hardware.
They were dead bodies in Paris metro long before any of those neo-con discovered the source of terrorism in Iraq.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
hehe funny :)
Have you read EC/EU regulations and/or laws Straffo?
Not the subject here.
How many do you think has read the EU constitution proposal?
I mean I had to read the Maastricht treaty and teh original EC constitution back in lawschool, and that was about as complicated and horribly...horribly...horribl y...disgustingly boooring as it possibly can be.
How can have you read something not written ????
There is still no EU constitution, I agree ,the Maastrich treaty is a pain in the a... to read.
But again the subject is not this treaty.
I dont think that anyone that doesnt directly work with it would want to read it, and I pity the poor sods who are forced to read it.
hu ??? I don't undertand this sentence.
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You were asking how many of those saying no to the new EU constitution had actually read the proposed constitution.
I was just saying that it is very rare to have anyone read any EC/EU legislation whatsoever, because it is probably the most boring thing that anyone can read. No one wants to read these things simply because it is about as funny as reading the phonebook.
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Actually there is a draft constitution wording out. I read some of it earlier today, and for European legislation it was refreshingly easy to read.
Not sure what EU legislation is like when it gets translated into Norweigian, Hortland, but in English it is just torturous to read.
Ravs
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Well I can't disagree...
the advantage to the phone book is that from time to time you can spot a really hot girl :D
(and some truck driver too btw :p)
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If they can get a UK opt-out on energy policy then I'll vote yes.
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Documents here http://europa.eu.int/futurum/constitution/index_en.htm
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I'm still looking for the parts of constitution that deal with the reform of the corrupt EC. Until that is satisfactorily sorted out, and crooks like Chirac, Berlesconi etc are removed from influence or prevented from gaining prominent positions it won't get my support.
We also need to make sure countries like Poland don't send us all their refugees and criminals as well making provision for power to be GDP centric.
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you could call it the "union of socialist republics". Make sure everyone had free health care and an apartment.
lazs
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Are you sure corrupt is the right term to use ?
I would better use unproductive or leaking the proper output.
Btw if you really want the head of Chirac give us your queen head and we will give you Chirac head by mail return :p
It's a federal constitution proposal not something that can be negociated.
Go away Laz, your country already a constitution wich appear to work as lot of country (mine included) use some derivative of the original US constitution.
Btw it will be good if your governement start to use it again .
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Originally posted by lazs2
you could call it the "union of socialist republics". Make sure everyone had free health care and an apartment.
lazs
No no, lets better build somthing like the USA where people have to have 3 jobs to be able to buy their burgers and freedom fries.
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build what you want so long as everyone gets lots of free stuff and there are high taxes.
lazs
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Straffo,
As you said - there were dead bodies in Paris because of the terrorists right? so why you are not "dealing" with the problem? Do you guys think that if you hide in your hopes they will leave you alone? For one year - maybe... for 5 years? maybe.... but them, how about later? thinking that the problem WILL DISAPEAR is just foolish :) It's something what other coutries DID while Hitler were "dealing" with Czechs or Poles (for example). See... "allies" gave him what he wanted and he stayed calm.. for year or two - was that a good deal? I don't thing so... especially as Poland or France got his bellybutton kicked a while after.
Now sure why some countries thinks that hiding or brown nosing terrorists (that's what you are doing) is the right way to "deal" with the problem... but prolly there is some reason.
Now, i'm not that stupid to believe in our politicians. Of course they are "brown nosing" US :) I prefere this then brown nosing French or German butts :) Also i'm sure we got NOTHING from US that have some real value in exchange... or very little... that's because our goverment is stupid and is not doing any good delas , BUT now - i like the thing that my country is serving a RIGHT CASE and it's not cowardly hiding like the others. I just hope we wot' be left alone by our "allies" when they decide to hide.
As for the EU - i dont' care about EU. EU is a BS :) If you believe that France or Germany are trying to ack for someone else's good then themselves - you are a fool. So as i don't think you are a fool i do think you realise that in EU every country is pulling thing on his own side... so as Poland will if we join. So we will scream about the $ as much as you will scream about the $. We will try to take care of our business as you will. Only one good thing for me about EU is that i would not need a passport to pass the borrders inside EU.
Now the question is - do you believe in your politicians? If you will, be sure France have his business in Poland joining EU. I'm not that stupid to believe that EU would ever allow us to join if it was not in EU's good interest :)
With that optimistic though i say to you Straffo :)
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Sorry for my last post Bike I was to violent.
Will respond to your last post after a break.
Btw I can't think what happened in 1939 will happen again as the English say : lesson learned.
if you don't think EU is a chance look what happened to Portugal and Spain. They were affraid to join and we were affraid to let them in,but it look it's not that bad for everyone.
But when thinking of EU think of a very very long process.
You can see it was slow by looking at the history of the EU from the ECSC to the EEC.
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lol, sorry Gsholtz!
This is what happens when you are trying to do three things at once. Hortlund becomes a Norweigian, I've Probably called one of my clients Mr Black, and I've probably sent you a bill!
Ravs
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Originally posted by GScholz
Oh yes! Hortlund getting mistaken for a Norwegian, that made my day. :D
Anyways Hortlund, I think you will find it a bit more logical to sink the Frenchmen in the ocean instead, and just keep the land. After all it's the people you hate, not the dirt they live on. ;)
Nah, I've got nothing against the average frenchman, most french people Ive met have been really nice people. Its France I hate.
I now invite you to ponder over the deeper philosophical implications of this statement. Is it possible to hate french policy, french peasants dumping manure on the streets like spoiled children when they dont get their every wish fulfilled, Chiraq, Garlic-smelling-we-are-better-than-everyone-cheese-arrogance, hairy armpits and terrorist-appeasement without hating each and every frenchman individually and personally?
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seems reasonable enough to me. stereotypes are very useful most of the time... otherwise... they wouldn't have gotten enough popularity to become stereotypes.
lazs
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I think it's very "clichι" Hortlund ,pay us a visit and you will see how France is different and how the media paint us sometime in a strange way (even our mιdia).
France can be a very different country depending where you are there is lovely people and people who just need a bullet in the head.
Exactly like the US there is diversity here, from the ultra-leftist to the moderate.
I smilled when I've seen your sentence about the French peasant ,you know the term Jacquerie was invented in France ? it just a long tradition of peasant revolts :)
And concerning terrorism appeasement it look like you don't see the news we have it can pass a week without some Iman being sent back to their country or arrest of muslim suspects.
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You havn't seen the size of the bill yet :D
Ravs
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Originally posted by GScholz
IF YOU HAVE SENT ME A BILL!
[/b]
...without having done any work for me...
... I'LL CALL YOU ... ... ...
...a good lawyer?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Main country in EU now - probably Germany. Theirs is the biggest economy.
Bwahahaha!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/2638593.stm
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Originally posted by Duedel
No no, lets better build somthing like the USA where people have to have 3 jobs to be able to buy their burgers and freedom fries.
Bwahahaa........ your great social system is Imploding.
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Thanks for the replies. I have a few points to raise before my rant.
Hortlund, do you think Sweden was right not to adopt the currency? Give reasons for your answer. I'm just interested in your point of view.
Monk - you are in/near Frankfurt? I might be visiting friends there soon. Thanks for posting that link! One of the points it makes is Germany must take action on its looming budget deficit by 21 May or face punishment, the European Commission has warned. The dressing-down from Brussels is being seen as a humiliation for the government of Europe's largest economy but is not expected to lead to any immediate financial penalty. It comes at a difficult time for Germany, which is suffering very low economic growth, high unemployment and the threat of strikes by public sector workers.
Part of Germany's problem stems from adoption of the which required all participating countries to surrender control of their interest rates to Brussels. Thus, Germany continues to be in a pickle because it's stuck with interest rates of around 3½%, when what it really needs is an interest rate cut to stimulate the economy - possibly to as little as 1% or even ½%. But it can't do that. This whole concept of a single currency throughout Europe would be fine - if it would work. Great not having to keep converting money from one currency to another. That used to cost businesses millions of £ every year. But the single currency simply pretends that all the member states' economies are the same, and simply pretends that market forces in the different member states are the same. They are not. They are very different. As Germany is now finding out.
And now my rant. In 1975, I voted YES in the EU Referendum - should we stay in the EU. To be honest, I had no clue about Europe. The reason I voted as I did was because the NO voters were led by Labour's far left wing "Tribune" group of MPs (Tony Benn, Michael Foot, and a couple of others who have since died) A NO vote would have given that bunch a carte blanche to take control and lead the march towards Socialism - high taxes, a tax on wealth, punitive taxes on our freedoms like driving. These are the people who supported the 83% income tax, and on motoring even proposed Pay-As-U-Drive meters in cars! On that day in 1975, the country voted YES by 2-1. Huge relief.
Neil Kinnock, who led the Labour party 1983-1992 was vehemently opposed to Europe when he arrived on the political scene in the 1970s. But he changed his tune when he saw how he might personally benefit from it. Having led his party to defeat in two general elections, he took up a new career - working for the EU in Brussels on a salary of £140,000 tax free, with expenses and accommodation provided. Can you say "champagne socialist"? His job in recent years has been to investigate corruption/fraud/waste in the EU, but from what I've heard a lot of information has been swept under the carpet. Dowding has already mentioned corruption at the EU. But what hope if those investigating corruption are themselves corrupt?
I see Blair doing the same thing after he leaves British politics. He'll probably get a cushy number in Brussels, and he and Cherie will be able to continue their globe trotting lifestyle while someone else clears up the mess of his legacy as British PM.
That's the end of my rant.
I don't propose to read the entire EU Constitution. Very few people will. It's enough (for now) to know that under that constitution, EU law would have primacy over British law and that of other EU member states. And if Britain were to be joining America in a new military skirmish somewhere, that would be decided by the President of Europe, not the Prime Minister of Britain. And of course we would have to have the and surrender control of our interest rates.
There is some concern over how the EU referendum should be worded. I absolutely agree with Schaden when he said the question is of course what exactly are we going to vote on and that question is going to be very, very carefully framed by the Labour Party to give it the answer it wants to hear.
That being the case, I think the Labour Govt. would do well to get Lazs to compose the wording of the referendum. :lol
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I thought our socialists were bad ... giving what you say about your labout guys it seems to me that my socialists are innocent lambs :D
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Monk - you are in/near Frankfurt? I might be visiting friends there soon.
Yup, just outside near the airport. Drop me a line.
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i think the entire EU thing is a joint plan between the germans and french to unite all of europe into one country and is being done simply because both the french and the germans have proven that europe cannot be united through war...uh oh...here come the black helicopters...wheres my tinfoil hat... AARRGGHHH NOT THE EYES NOT THE EYES!!!!
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" That being the case, I think the Labour Govt. would do well to get Lazs to compose the wording of the referendum. "
the resultant wailing and knashing of teeth would be glorious..
lazs
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knashing of teeth
there may be british involved...youd best change that part :p
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Originally posted by beet1e
Hortlund, do you think Sweden was right not to adopt the currency? Give reasons for your answer. I'm just interested in your point of view.
No, I think Sweden made a bad choise in that referendum. There are many reasons why the elections went the way they went, basically people were voting on other issues than the one on the ballot. Instead of the "should we adopt the euro"-question, people were answering "do you like the sitting government", "do you like the EU" or "do you think we should teach the big corporations a lesson by voting agianst their wishes"-questions with their vote [size=0]yes, I've lost what little faith in democracy I had left after that election[/size]
It would benefit Sweden to be a -nation because our economy is already tied to the euro-economy and we would have larger influence-abilities on our own economy if we were part of ...how odd that might sound.
Since we are so very export-dependent, currency fluctuations could hit many of our industries very hard. Not the big ones naturally, because they secure all export deals to other currencies, but medium/small ones.
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No.
Lets start a commonwealth with Canada, USA, Australia and NZ instead :D
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Originally posted by Monk
Bwahahaa........ your great social system is Imploding.
Yep, ur social order will be too.
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Originally posted by Hortlund
It would benefit Sweden to be a -nation because our economy is already tied to the euro-economy and we would have larger influence-abilities on our own economy if we were part of ...how odd that might sound.
Since we are so very export-dependent, currency fluctuations could hit many of our industries very hard. Not the big ones naturally, because they secure all export deals to other currencies, but medium/small ones.
OK, but instead of being a -currency nation, your government still has the option to vary the valuation of your currency - the krone - and can vary interest rates. Wouldn't you prefer this level of control over your economy to rest with Stockholm than with Brussels?
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NO
And that comes from someone who'll be working in Germany from October onwards for 3 years! ;)
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While still living in England (and still subject to English media) I was mainly anti-euro.
Then I left England for Europe and thought "this is cool, this is; why don't they run England this way?"....
The fact is; having seen the bloody mess London has made of Britain (who ever is the administration of the day); it's hard to argue that London has an indisputable right to govern.
On the other hand: I find it ironic that the more centralised administration becomes; the more stupid little indepency movements arise. After all; in an non-Euro world; just how viable would places such as the Basque land or Wales be?
My own long term hope for Europe is a return to the Greek city/state system; meaningfull local government inside a larger cohesive framework. Local rule; held acountable to local people; not some guy living isolated in a guarded house being chauffered to work; remote from the society he created. Politicians should be forced to live the lives they force on others.
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Would be bloody good, Seeker.
But it would never happen, more's the pity.
Ravs
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Well, Seeker if you think London is wasteful, inefficient and corrupt you must have the rose tinted spectacles when it comes to the EU and specifically the Commission.
London has an indisputable right NOT to be governed by foreign politicians who would be in jail if they were British, operating in the British parliamentary democracy.
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spot the little englander...lol
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Little englander, common sense...either way...
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British politics is just as corrupt Dowding, but here, as in the USA, the corruption is institutionalised ;)
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Originally posted by beet1e
OK, but instead of being a -currency nation, your government still has the option to vary the valuation of your currency - the krone - and can vary interest rates. Wouldn't you prefer this level of control over your economy to rest with Stockholm than with Brussels?
That option is an illusion. The minute our government would try to keep a fixed crown-value, foreigh speculations against said crown-value would create havoc on our economy like in the early 90s. Simple fact is that the crown-value must flow simply because we are a small economy and any attempt to fix our crown-value would be crushed like a bug by outside speculation.
Same with interest rates, the minute our national bank would try to change the interest rates independently of the current - rates, our economy would take a nosedive.
Simple fact is that we have less control over our economy now when we are outside than we would have if we were a part of .
And no, for me it is completely irrelevant whether the control over the interest rates or the crown value is decided in Stockholm or Brussels, simply because politicians should not (and does not) have any control over these instruments. Political control over the economy = communism= disaster for the economy. And even Sweden, with its long tradition of social democracy has realized this had has an independent national bank operating outside political control.
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I don't doubt there is corruption in British politics - but why lose sovereignty to an even more corrupt and bureacratic institution? The Commission is democratically unaccountable, and contains politicians who failed in their own countries. 'Gravy train' doesn't do the place justice.
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Interesting viewpoint, Hortlund. I will try to digest what you said.
When I said about your government being able to control the currency/interest rate, I should have said your banking institution. For example, a lot of interest rate decisions here are not made by govt., but by the Bank of England.
This discussion reminds me of something that happened way back in 1967. Labour had come to power in 1964 under PM Harold Wilson. As with all Labour governments, financial crisis was followed by economic breakdown. The British currency had to be devalued by 14.3%.
Immediately after devaluation, Spain devalued their currency (then the peseta) by 14.6%. They did this because they realised that they were heavily dependent on British tourism. Air travel was just catching on, and cheap package holidays with guaranteed sunshine were becoming very popular. (Sure beats a week in Blackpool watching it piss down with rain) If Spain had not devalued, the increased cost of those package holidays would have risen sharply. The point I'm making here is that Spain was able to retrieve the situation because it had control over the value of its own currency, and interest rates. How would they cope with a similar situation today in such a crisis having surrendered control of their currency and interest rates?
It's too long ago now to draw any parallels with a situation from modern times, but it's something I think back to whenever there's talk of surrendering control of our own finances. I've managed to dig out the PM's speech that day (Real Audio format) from the BBC archives. In it, the 1966 Dock Strike is mentioned as being one of the factors contributing to Britain's economic crisis. The instigator of that strike was a 28 year old gentleman by the name of John Prescott. That same guy is now Deputy Prime Minister, a position from which he has been able to continue his career of wrecking Britain which he began in 1966.
Harold Wilson and the "pound in your pocket" speech of 1967. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/november/19/newsid_3208000/3208396.stm) The Brits might find this amusing to listen to after all these years. I always thought Harold was saying "biddy-biddy-buur" whatever he was saying.