Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: gofaster on April 20, 2004, 12:44:49 PM
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A good website (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbine_High_School_massacre) with a lot of information about the massacre, including photos, firearms, and timeline of events.
Things I learned: The father of Harris was a transport pilot in the Air Force, retired, and went to work for a flight safety company. The father of Klebold was a geophysicist, his mother worked for community colleges. Both boys were on medication for depression, which kept Eric Harris from becoming a Marine. Both boys had criminal records leading up to the shooting.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/upload/1/13/Columbine.jpg)
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I believe these two young men are decorated representatives of evil and proof that pure evil is a tangible, real commodity in the human spirit.
Stay clear of evil my friends and be prepared at some point in life to defeat evil or be defeated by it.
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yep... there are evil people out there folks... making sure the populace is unable to defend against em is never a good plan..
contrast the outcome with the outcome in schools where the sheep reacted with a firearm in their hand instead of a rule book that told em there were no firearms allowed.
lazs
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Proof that kids need parents, and that your careers should never stand between you and nurturing/raising your children to be the best they can be. To limit what violence they are exposed to involving video games, what they watch on TV, and monitor their every move. Be intrusive. Know who their friends are.
Too bad they may hate you for a few awkward teenage years, they'll thank you later on in life.
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I don't think I would want to be the one pointing the "finger" at the parents until I had walked in their shoes. You may be right and may be completely wrong too.
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Originally posted by lazs2
yep... there are evil people out there folks... making sure the populace is unable to defend against em is never a good plan..
contrast the outcome with the outcome in schools where the sheep reacted with a firearm in their hand instead of a rule book that told em there were no firearms allowed.
lazs
So you want every student armed? Good idea, so when the hormones are rageing and some kids have a schoolyard fight they instead have a shootout. Sweet.
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Actually, I think he meant the teachers, not the students.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
So you want every student armed? Good idea, so when the hormones are rageing and some kids have a schoolyard fight they instead have a shootout. Sweet.
Works for the inner-cities, why not everywhere else?
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Originally posted by Lizking
Actually, I think he meant the teachers, not the students.
So when a teach snaps he/she can take out the whole classroom instead of screaming in a blind rage.
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Word:
If you want to blame Columbine on someone, how about going after good ol Eric and Dillion.
Parents, sure they're responsible for the upbringing of their kids, but do you really believe that going columbine (heh---couldn't resist) is something that was the result of poor upbringing? Like had they read to the kids more this wouldn't have happened? Let's try not to lose sight of the gravity of what we're talking about more.
To be honest, I've grown tired of people and their half bellybutton explanations for what went on there. I still remember in high school when the witch hunt came down on anybody who had ever listened to a KMFDM or Marylin Manson CD. Because.....of course.......it must be the music.
And I'm sure we all remember when it was video games that caused it? Right?
Most recently we got that dribble from Mike Moore blaming it on the media.
All wrong folks....it was just two way crazy kids.
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In tribute, I shall play the Columbine Doom level tonight.
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Do some of you people actually think or are you simply media parrots?
yes I meant if the teachers that wish to carry concealed were allowed to. I have not seen any case in the decades of concealed carry and the millions of concealed carry citizens where one "snapped" and went on a shooting spree...
I have not seen that or cops that snapped and went on a shooting spree... A person could still have a gun and lose control and simply yell and scream or even throw things... he might even hit a student with his fists or stomp off in a rage... having a firearm would not make him turnm sociopath no matter what diane finestein tells you.
In allmost every case where an 'out of control pscho with a gun" is confronted by another gun he sanes right up and stops hostilities.
If the students didn't know if some of the teachers were armed or not then they simply would find another finestein approved hunting preserve to poach in.
lazs
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We had an armed officer at my high school and junior high for that matter. No big deal having an armed professional with a side arm, but its a different matter with allowing teachers to be armed. It only takes one idiot to leave their gun just sitting in a desk.
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today is an evil day.:(
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
today is an evil day.:(
It is hitlers birthday.
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staby... I am really having a hard time figuring out if you really believe what you are saying or if you are even paying attention to what you are saying.
There is NO evidence that a teacher or any other of the millions of concealed carry permit holders have ever left a gun in a place where schoolkids could get ahold of it but..... even if by some chance that happened it is by no means certain that finding a gun would turn a normal sane student into an out of control psyco.. and... you yourself have admited that simply having an armed person in the schools has suddenly made all the students sane and polite little boys and girls ...
really... think a little and use some observation instead of speculation... it just doesn't happen that way... it happens the way I claim it does and the way you are observing With the cop armed in your school.. Some schools even use "security guards" are you saying that you trust a security guard more than a teacher who has went through the whole concealed carry process?
even more mindblowing was that when I went to school we would bring our rifles and pistols to school for NRA sponsored shooting/marksmanship safety classes... we were asked to not bring loaded guns. The guns didn't force us to go on shooting sprees.
The crap they teach kids these days...
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
staby... I am really having a hard time figuring out if you really believe what you are saying or if you are even paying attention to what you are saying.
There is NO evidence that a teacher or any other of the millions of concealed carry permit holders have ever left a gun in a place where schoolkids could get ahold of it but..... even if by some chance that happened it is by no means certain that finding a gun would turn a normal sane student into an out of control psyco.. and... you yourself have admited that simply having an armed person in the schools has suddenly made all the students sane and polite little boys and girls ...
really... think a little and use some observation instead of speculation... it just doesn't happen that way... it happens the way I claim it does and the way you are observing With the cop armed in your school.. Some schools even use "security guards" are you saying that you trust a security guard more than a teacher who has went through the whole concealed carry process?
even more mindblowing was that when I went to school we would bring our rifles and pistols to school for NRA sponsored shooting/marksmanship safety classes... we were asked to not bring loaded guns. The guns didn't force us to go on shooting sprees.
The crap they teach kids these days...
lazs
Even with the armed officers we still had race riots and students beaten close to death. It by no means made any of the students act any different. Having armed teachers wouldn't matter. If a nut case wants to kill a bunch of people he will kill a bunch of people. Guns do not make people safer from that type of situation, but they do make people feel safer and more in control.
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wrong... in every case where a gun was used against school shooters the violence stopped. These kids or adults are not as insane as you would llike to believe or have been told... when faced with the possibility of getting shot they give up or run away.
I do not advocate shooting students who are fighting unless it is the last resort where nothing else could be done to save an inocent person from an agressor.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
wrong... in every case where a gun was used against school shooters the violence stopped. These kids or adults are not as insane as you would llike to believe or have been told... when faced with the possibility of getting shot they give up or run away.
I do not advocate shooting students who are fighting unless it is the last resort where nothing else could be done to save an inocent person from an agressor.
lazs
The kids in columbine went in there intent on dieing. Thinking that maybe the teachers may or may not have guns would not have stoped them. I see no problem with allowing a teacher a gun in school, but they would have to go through the same training as an officer of the law or any other government employee that is issued a firearm.
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Even with the armed officers we still had race riots and students beaten close to death.
Show me the news stories. I don't believe you.
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Originally posted by lazs2
yep... there are evil people out there folks... making sure the populace is unable to defend against em is never a good plan..
contrast the outcome with the outcome in schools where the sheep reacted with a firearm in their hand instead of a rule book that told em there were no firearms allowed.
lazs
Tell me more about this Lazs
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Proof that kids need parents, and that your careers should never stand between you and nurturing/raising your children to be the best they can be. To limit what violence they are exposed to involving video games, what they watch on TV, and monitor their every move. Be intrusive. Know who their friends are.
Too bad they may hate you for a few awkward teenage years, they'll thank you later on in life.
THIS is one of those few moments when the planets align and I agree with Rip
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Originally posted by Lizking
Even with the armed officers we still had race riots and students beaten close to death.
Show me the news stories. I don't believe you.
You want links to stuff that happned 10 years ago?
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Originally posted by dweebespit
Word:
If you want to blame Columbine on someone, how about going after good ol Eric and Dillion.
Parents, sure they're responsible for the upbringing of their kids, but do you really believe that going columbine (heh---couldn't resist) is something that was the result of poor upbringing? Like had they read to the kids more this wouldn't have happened? Let's try not to lose sight of the gravity of what we're talking about more.
snipage
Most recently we got that dribble from Mike Moore blaming it on the media.
All wrong folks....it was just two way crazy kids.
I'd bet that 90% of their problem was poor parenting.
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I had skipped High school that day...
Me and couple friends were in the local pizza joint, when flash news hit the screen, The first footage we saw was of School Busses that said "Jefferson County Schools"...
And because of the Music the TV was on mute, We couldnt tell until they showed a map, We then realized it was Jefferson County Colorado, Not West Virginia.
As for Teachers with guns....NO.
Increase Security at schools by putting Police officers, security guards, and camera's.
Not teachers with guns.
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"Society is Safer When Criminals Dont Know who is Armed"
god i would like to torture those bastrds...disgusting
http://www.crpa.org
Love
BiGB
xoxo
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The fact that you would like to torture anyone hints at problems of your own...
Then again... I'm not a doctor.
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Nah, don't bother, I'm sure that you are all "gangsta'd up".
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Teachers in Israel are armed...heavily. You do NOT hear about them going berserk and slaughtering their students.
What's more, the populace sees nothing wrong with this. In a region where terrorist attacks have been commonplace for more than 50 years they have entrusted their teachers with deadly firepower so that the maniacs cannot simply walk into their schools and start blasting away.
Would armed resistance have saved lives at Columbine? You bet your sweet arse it would have. Almost any normal adult can be trained to handle a firearm in a responsible manner during a crisis situation. Unless, of course, one's left leg is too long.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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FREEDOM FIGHTERS!!!!!
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What didnt everybody have a tek 9. Most sold submachine gun in the US as one time.
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This is why we need ninjas in every school and at most major office buildings. You never know when a disgruntled student or worker will need to be taken out silently.
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why would a teacher go nuts and start killing students? if he did... I would still like to know that some other teacher or adult had the means to stop him. seems "run away run away" is not a very sound plan.
strk... two incidents that come to mind are the 96(i think) misssissippi school shooting where a 30/30 wielding student was confronted by a teacher who ran to his car and got his 45 and stopped the guy befor he could shoot more than a couple.. the shooter RAN AWAY and was chased down by the teacher and held fo the police... another is a law school (can't recall where but can look it up) where a 380 weilding student started shooting.. another student was armed and drew on him telling him to drop the gun... which HE DID. at that point it was a fistfight instead of continueing to be a shooting of sheep.
staby... those kids may have been intent on dieing... they may not have been.. who knows how they would have reacted to someone confronting them with a gun... maybe like in every other case except whitman.. they woulda hnds up but... one thing is for sure... if they got shot ded they would have stopped.
Concealed carry permit holders do have to be trained regularly. probly a lot more than a security guard. I notice that it is mostly the student age guys on the BB who have this great distrust of teachers... that is natural... I felt the same but... admit it... there are allways a couple you would trust. and that is all it would take.
If my kid were killed in columbine I would be suing the people that allowed those kids to be unprotected... they took away everyuones right to defense but gave nothing in return.
lazs
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Oh.. strk.. John Lotts new book "the bias against guns" has some good examples of what happens when force is met with a firearms defense.. and... it explains why you don't know about any of em. But you sure know about columbine don't you?
I think that this media manipulation will someday bite em on the butt... I don't read newspapers or watch the news much now... many people are doing the same. I don't really care about some journalists opinion who never leaves his desk and is someone who has nothing in common with me anyway.
To me, columbine should prove that there are evil people who will shoot, poison, bomb or just run down students or anyone else. it proves that making people sheep just forces the nuts to act. How could they resist? no restraints whatsoever except some "law" that said not to. they knew that they would not be in any danger while they slaughtered those kids... least not till someone with a gun got there.
lazs
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You hang around a high school long enough and eventually you'll see a teacher yelling in frustration at the students.
Classic Mr. Hand line: "What are you people? On dope?"
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If the existing laws had been adhered to, these guys wouldn't have been able to own guns. They were on probation already, and underage to purchase from a gun show.
They both had 2 parent homes with successful loving parents too. Maybe they were just bad.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
If the existing laws had been adhered to, these guys wouldn't have been able to own guns. They were on probation already, and underage to purchase from a gun show.
They both had 2 parent homes with successful loving parents too. Maybe they were just bad.
"Loving" parents? Too trusting obviously, as they did not know that in their OWN BASEMENT these guys were putting together bombs. As a parent, you should know where they are, what they are doing, and be intrusive. Obviously these parents were a failure.
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gofaster... are you saying that if a teacher yells in frustrastion that they would start shooting kids instead of yelling? very strange stretch there... sorta like all the liberals who "just knew from logic" that concealed carry permits would make people start shooting each other over fender benders eh?
I can think of worse ways to die than being shot... should we close down the internet because a kid made a pipe bomb? how bout not allow cars within 500 feet of a school so that they won't kamakazi into the schoolyard?
lazs
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seems the problem started about the time they took "swats" out of the school lineup
once they removed that deterrent, discipline in school went out the window
our dean had one similiar, without the sigs and holes drilled into it for less drag
(http://aesop.rutgers.edu/~alphazeta/images/paddle.jpg)
didnt stop us, but gave us something to think about
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Originally posted by lazs2
gofaster... are you saying that if a teacher yells in frustrastion that they would start shooting kids instead of yelling? very strange stretch there... sorta like all the liberals who "just knew from logic" that concealed carry permits would make people start shooting each other over fender benders eh?
I can think of worse ways to die than being shot... should we close down the internet because a kid made a pipe bomb? how bout not allow cars within 500 feet of a school so that they won't kamakazi into the schoolyard?
lazs
I'm saying teachers lose it. And I sure wouldn't want a teacher to have access to a gun when they lose it.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Teachers in Israel are armed...heavily. You do NOT hear about them going berserk and slaughtering their students.
What's more, the populace sees nothing wrong with this. In a region where terrorist attacks have been commonplace for more than 50 years they have entrusted their teachers with deadly firepower so that the maniacs cannot simply walk into their schools and start blasting away.
Would armed resistance have saved lives at Columbine? You bet your sweet arse it would have. Almost any normal adult can be trained to handle a firearm in a responsible manner during a crisis situation. Unless, of course, one's left leg is too long.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
Military duty is compulsory in Israel. Those teachers served in the military for a minimum of 2 years. They know a thing or two about weapons.
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Originally posted by Eagler
seems the problem started about the time they took "swats" out of the school lineup
Or when corporate America starting putting the bottom line first. And when both parents are forced to work more than 40 hours to make ends meet. Who is there now when the kids get out of school? Both parents work so much they barely have time for their kids. The only thing trickling down from corporate America is a lack of morality and family values, but no one wants to point the finger that way, it's because we can't beat our kids, yeah, that's it. Discipline has it's place, but what good is it if the parents are not around to do it? Maybe we should make sure there is a parent at home after noon every school day?
Ripsnort: Proof that kids need parents, and that your careers should never stand between you and nurturing/raising your children to be the best they can be
Back in grade school we were told that in the future people would work less and have more time for family and community. Fast forward 25 years, wow. I can see why we put up with the deception of politicians, we learn it at an early age.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Or when corporate America starting putting the bottom line first. And when both parents are forced to work more than 40 hours to make ends meet. Who is there now when the kids get out of school? Both parents work so much they barely have time for their kids. The only thing trickling down from corporate America is a lack of morality and family values, but no one wants to point the finger that way, it's because we can't beat our kids, yeah, that's it. Discipline has it's place, but what good is it if the parents are not around to do it? Maybe we should make sure there is a parent at home after noon every school day?
Ripsnort: Proof that kids need parents, and that your careers should never stand between you and nurturing/raising your children to be the best they can be
Back in grade school we were told that in the future people would work less and have more time for family and community. Fast forward 25 years, wow. I can see why we put up with the deception of politicians, we learn it at an early age.
Quoted for truth.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Or when corporate America starting putting the bottom line first. And when both parents are forced to work more than 40 hours to make ends meet. Who is there now when the kids get out of school? Both parents work so much they barely have time for their kids. The only thing trickling down from corporate America is a lack of morality and family values, but no one wants to point the finger that way, it's because we can't beat our kids, yeah, that's it. Discipline has it's place, but what good is it if the parents are not around to do it? Maybe we should make sure there is a parent at home after noon every school day?
Ripsnort: Proof that kids need parents, and that your careers should never stand between you and nurturing/raising your children to be the best they can be
Back in grade school we were told that in the future people would work less and have more time for family and community. Fast forward 25 years, wow. I can see why we put up with the deception of politicians, we learn it at an early age.
I seem to recall that Womens Liberation movement took mom out of the home and into corporate America. It seems like its convenient for liberals to blame Corporate America, but the women wanted equal rights, and equal jobs. We (as in America) gave it to them. Then the families suffered.
However, you can balance the two. Today, Corporate America has gone out of its way to help mothers and fathers. For instance, my company has a privacy room for breast feeding mothers to pump during working hours...day care if we choose to use company provided day care...flexible hours to maximize time spent with family....virtual office to maximize time at home...there's plenty out there to work around America. Seems liberals like yourself like to blame others instead of taking the parental responsibility yourself and say "I must try harder and work towards more family time."
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I seem to recall that Womens Liberation movement took mom out of the home and into corporate America. It seems like its convenient for liberals to blame Corporate America, but the women wanted equal rights, and equal jobs. We (as in America) gave it to them. Then the families suffered.
However, you can balance the two. Today, Corporate America has gone out of its way to help mothers and fathers. For instance, my company has a privacy room for breast feeding mothers to pump during working hours...day care if we choose to use company provided day care...flexible hours to maximize time spent with family....virtual office to maximize time at home...there's plenty out there to work around America. Seems liberals like yourself like to blame others instead of taking the parental responsibility yourself and say "I must try harder and work towards more family time."
Do not blame womens lib on the fact that most households can only survive if both parents work. There is no reason women shouldnt have equal rights in the office.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Do not blame womens lib on the fact that most households can only survive if both parents work. There is no reason women shouldnt have equal rights in the office.
Do not blame corporate America if we wanted higher incomes either.
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Womens Lib is fine with me, I can stay home with the kids, works for me. The facts speak volumes Rip. The amount of hours worked by the single working parent has increased alot, now add that to the second parent working. I heard an ad by a mattress company stating the results of a study showing how Americans sleep hours have decreased over the years(to show the point of making the most of the sleep you do get by having the right mattress). At the pace we are going, we will be taking vacation every three years and sleeping 4 hours a day.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Do not blame corporate America if we wanted higher incomes either.
Yes it is crazy for us to demand that wages be increased with inflation. CRAZY!
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If I were to blame "Corporate America" for anything it would be over commercialization of products, how you should live, what you should wear, bigger is better, fancier is better, etc. We used to be a society happy with a small home, a yard, one income and a Chevy in the drive way. Now we're a family of Michael Jordon shoes, the best car money can buy, 4,000 sq. ft houses, and "I have to have the latest computer game on my computer" type of America. With our craving for bigger, better and faster, comes the need for duel income.
If you have to blame anyone (instead of the correct responsible thing to do, that is, ask yourself what you've learned, and correct YOUR behavior) then blame TV, its made you believe you have to have something you do not need.
The simple fact is this:
These parents failed to do their job. You can't blame anyone but them for the fact that they did not know what their kids were up to, nor try to correct their behavior except with drugs.
Its time WE take responsibility for our children, not point the finger at someone else.[/size]
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Well, you need to pay your mortgage and your bills, and the single working parent doesn't quite do that anymore.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Well, you need to pay your mortgage and your bills, and the single working parent doesn't quite do that anymore.
If you can't pay your mortgage, then your living in too big of house for your career/income. Downsize.
If my wife chose to not work, we'd be in a 1300 sq. ft house, not our current 2600 sq. ft. house. Fortunately, we work alternative work schedules so one of us is always home with the kids 6 days a week (one day a week we have a nanny for a portion of the day, but its while they're in school, so basically shes a house sitter)
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Well, you need to pay your mortgage and your bills, and the single working parent doesn't quite do that anymore.
Rip does have a point. The bills wouldnt be so expensive if the parents didnt have his and her h2's and live in a 4-5 bedroom house when they only have 1 kid. Our consumer culture has gone into overdrive over the past 20 years.
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Yeah, we could do like some immigrants and live 5 families to a house.
http://www.indiana.edu/~ocmhp/040904/text/workweek.shtml
http://www.ufcw.org/worker_political_agenda/where_we_stand/ufcw_letters_to_congress/hr1119_overtimehours.cfm
http://www.laborresearch.org/story.php?id=16
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You're preaching to the choir, sixpence, I started out homeless at age 18...and I felt my standard of living was acceptable when I had only $100 in my pocket as I do today with $1000. You can't blame corporations for income, you have to earn it. If you want a better living, you must get a better education. Pretty simple, nothing is "free" in life.
Here's a good article, I ask you, no...I BEG you (and Stabby) to please take the time and read it.
American standard of living offers proof that profit is a positive force Michael Braude
I hope I succeeded last week in giving you a method of teaching our young people about the beginnings and strengths of capitalism.
Today, I tackle a more difficult, but equally important, task. I want to discuss how we counter the large number of adults in our society who erroneously believe that "profit" is some kind of dirty word. Such misguided thinking does a huge disservice to the vital process of economic education.
Folks are accustomed to hearing parables, particularly in religious settings. Let's try one in this effort.
A young man named Bill Smith grew up right here in Kansas City. He went to Center High School and was an all-around super kid. He was National Honor Society, president of the student body, and captain and quarterback of Center's state champion football team.
All the mothers and fathers in south Kansas City exhorted their children to "Grow up and be like Bill Smith."
Bill had the good judgment to say no to both Bill Snyder and Mark Mangino and yes to Gary Pinkel.
He went down to Mizzou and led the Tigers to the Big 12 title. He was Phi Beta Kappa and student government president. He majored in accounting. Word of his academic, athletic and extracurricular activities filtered back to south Kansas City. Once again, legions of parents begged their children, "Grow up and be like Bill Smith."
After Bill graduated, all the big accounting firms courted him. He joined Pricewater-houseCoopers in New York. He attained his CPA and received numerous promotions.
Each time, they were noted in The Business Journal. Locals once again pleaded with their kids, "Grow up and be like Bill Smith."
After several years, Bill decided to return to the roots of his raising. He came back to Kansas City and hung out a shingle: "Bill Smith, CPA." Of course, his practice thrived. His small clients grew larger and referred even bigger clients to him.
Before long, Bill traded in his Civic on a Lexus. He stopped buying suits at Men's Wearhouse and started having Verl make them. He sold his house in Red Bridge and moved to Loch Lloyd.
Guess what? Many of those folks who had repeatedly sung Bill's praises suddenly became suspicious of him. In their twisted thinking, he became some kind of "profiteer."
Nonsense! We have an obligation to understand and teach our children that profit is a word that should be revered and respected.
It was profit that motivated Henry Ford to build the Model T and Thomas Edison to invent the light bulb.
It is profit that inspired half the items we see advertised on television each night, items that were not in existence a decade ago. These things, from Altoids to notebook computers, make all our lives better.
Recently, I visited a large timber operation. I was fascinated by a huge machine that transformed sawdust into usable board.
I had always thought that all you could do with sawdust was fill broad jump or pole vault pits with it or burn it.
Profit was the motivation for developing this ecologically sound and expensive machine.
I'm sure by now you get my point that profit is the key to our economic system and thus to our standard of living, which clearly is the envy of the rest of the world.
Reach Michael Braude at lmbraude@aol.com. He writes weekly for The Business Journal.
http://www.bizjournals.com/kansascity/stories/2004/01/19/editorial3.html
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I'm sure by now you get my point that profit is the key to our economic system and thus to our standard of living, which clearly is the envy of the rest of the world.
According to a recent survey by Expedia.com, 63 percent of Americans work more than 40 hours a week, with some 40 percent exceeding the 50-hour a week mark. More than $21 billion dollars in vacation time goes unused annually (and back to employers!), as we spend 2.5 more weeks—and three months more—at work than do our Japanese and western European counterparts, respectively.
Yeah, I can see why they envy us.
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Trust me the rip, the western europeons and the japanese do not envy us(you can throw the aussies and kiwis into this mix as well.)
Noone said anything about profit being bad. We were just pointing out the downfalls of society when maximum profit is the only thing on people's minds.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Proof that kids need parents, and that your careers should never stand between you and nurturing/raising your children to be the best they can be. To limit what violence they are exposed to involving video games, what they watch on TV, and monitor their every move. Be intrusive. Know who their friends are.
Too bad they may hate you for a few awkward teenage years, they'll thank you later on in life.
ah so because a person is under 18 not only do that not have any rights but everything they do must be the fault of there parents...
do you have kids? can you honestly say that you know there every move? do you beleive they they should have a tracking collar on them and give them a breathalyzer test every time they enter the house? do you know what happens at school? do you really think they actually tell you everything that happened?
heres a question...
you kid is 16 and is going to a party on a friday night...he's previously got it set up that hes going to sleep over... at this party he
a) drinks beer till he passes out or the booze runs out
b) has 1 or 2 beers to look "cool" but thats it
c) sits around playing playstation till 11 then straight to bed...
d) actually he went to his girlfriends house drank himself stupid and had unprotected sex with her...
the correct answers are A and D and trust me no matter how "good" your kid is (even if hes a nerd) will have drank beer till he passes out before there 18...unless your a mormon or a JW
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interesting thing that happened to a friend when he was in japan... he accidently left his wallet on a bench in a busy park...when he returned the next day it was untouched...
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Originally posted by vorticon
do you have kids? [/i]
yes.
can you honestly say that you know there every move?
Yes, and when they are of teenage years, I will as well.
do you beleive they they should have a tracking collar on them and give them a breathalyzer test every time they enter the house?
I will teach them about responsibility, going to partys and drinking while a minor is not responsible. If they do, they will be grounded.
do you know what happens at school?
Yes I do. They tell me.
do you really think they actually tell you everything that happened?
I believe that instilling in them at their young age about honesty and trust, and about a parent being a best friend, that there will be no need to lie.
heres a question...
you kid is 16 and is going to a party on a friday night...he's previously got it set up that hes going to sleep over... at this party he
a) drinks beer till he passes out or the booze runs out
b) has 1 or 2 beers to look "cool" but thats it
c) sits around playing playstation till 11 then straight to bed...
d) actually he went to his girlfriends house drank himself stupid and had unprotected sex with her...
the correct answers are A and D and trust me no matter how "good" your kid is (even if hes a nerd) will have drank beer till he passes out before there 18...unless your a mormon or a JW
My kids at that age will be much too busy to be going to parties, trust me on this one. Your life may have been like that, and mine was, but I'm determined to learn from my parents mistakes, that is, leaving me to roam free as a teenager. I will be their best friend, one that they can tell anything. I will be the guy they have their first beer with, underaged or not...I will be the guy that they'd rather be with than partying with a bunch of teens. And if the party is one that doesn't involved getting drunk, I will be the father that my kids will want to invite to the party (well, thats my goal, might be unreachable, but you have to shoot for the sun if you want to go to the moon...) I will teach them about sexual diseases and teach them to protect themselves. I will also teach them about themselves being responsible for their own actions, and thus suffering the consequences of their own actions. I am Parent. Something that is a lost art in our culture today.
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Living to work and working to live are two totally different outlooks on life... America is preprogrammed to follow the first outlook...
dude
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I got no argument with capitalism or profit Rip. But you make it sound like it is something new. Didn't we live by the same rules through the 40's,50's,60's and 70's? We worked the 40 hour work week then and we seemed to do just fine. And if we had to work more than 40 hours we were compensated for it by O.T. Both parents did not have to work, and there was a parent at home to help the kids with their homework, drive them to baseball practice, teach them morals, and keep them out of trouble. As a matter of fact, alot of people on the BB want to return to "the good ol days". Why do we have to work 80 hours a week to do the same now? You asked me to read what you C&P'd, and I did(as you can see I replied already), but did you read the links I posted? Read the last one, the one that is preparing you for the new 50-60 hour standard work week.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Recently, I visited a large timber operation. I was fascinated by a huge machine that transformed sawdust into usable board.
I had always thought that all you could do with sawdust was fill broad jump or pole vault pits with it or burn it.
Profit was the motivation for developing this ecologically sound and expensive machine.
Actually, I would think the ecological movement would be the one behind that, seeing as how they're the ones pushing to keep the timber companies off public lands and "coercing" the timber companies to develop alternate ways to make usable board. I would think it would be cheaper to cut a tree and shape it than to reconstitute sawdust particles.
Another point to discuss: people and income. Anybody remember the case where the mom worked as a director for a hospital and left her baby in the car because she was too preoccupied with the hospital's business affairs? The baby died after sitting in the hot car for hours. She ended up quitting her job (or taking a different work-at-home position, I can't remember which) to spend time with her (remaining) children.
I'm all for profit. Its the only thing that gets me out of bed, into the shower, and into the office every morning. Otherwise, I'd just walk around in stinky clothes all morning and play Aces High.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Originally posted by vorticon
do you have kids? [/i]
yes.
can you honestly say that you know there every move?
Yes, and when they are of teenage years, I will as well.
do you beleive they they should have a tracking collar on them and give them a breathalyzer test every time they enter the house?
I will teach them about responsibility, going to partys and drinking while a minor is not responsible. If they do, they will be grounded.
do you know what happens at school?
Yes I do. They tell me.
do you really think they actually tell you everything that happened?
I believe that instilling in them at their young age about honesty and trust, and about a parent being a best friend, that there will be no need to lie.
heres a question...
you kid is 16 and is going to a party on a friday night...he's previously got it set up that hes going to sleep over... at this party he
a) drinks beer till he passes out or the booze runs out
b) has 1 or 2 beers to look "cool" but thats it
c) sits around playing playstation till 11 then straight to bed...
d) actually he went to his girlfriends house drank himself stupid and had unprotected sex with her...
the correct answers are A and D and trust me no matter how "good" your kid is (even if hes a nerd) will have drank beer till he passes out before there 18...unless your a mormon or a JW
My kids at that age will be much too busy to be going to parties, trust me on this one. Your life may have been like that, and mine was, but I'm determined to learn from my parents mistakes, that is, leaving me to roam free as a teenager. I will be their best friend, one that they can tell anything. I will be the guy they have their first beer with, underaged or not...I will be the guy that they'd rather be with than partying with a bunch of teens. And if the party is one that doesn't involved getting drunk, I will be the father that my kids will want to invite to the party (well, thats my goal, might be unreachable, but you have to shoot for the sun if you want to go to the moon...) I will teach them about sexual diseases and teach them to protect themselves. I will also teach them about themselves being responsible for their own actions, and thus suffering the consequences of their own actions. I am Parent. Something that is a lost art in our culture today. [/B]
Preach it brother Rip! I agree with everything you've said here.
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Sixpence, to be honest, I'm tired of people blaming others for their predictaments they're in financially. With the best colleges in the world, the opportunities for education (Pell grants, etc.) anyone that has to work more than 40 hours has no excuse and no finger to point to other than their own lack of will to further themselves in their respective career, or look outside their career for one that brings in more income. I'm old school, and if I could do it with nothing but the clothes on my back in 1979, then anyone can.
Now back to the topic:
Granted, I am blaming the parents for the Columbine event thus "pointing a finger", but I point the finger at the lack of taking full responsibility for ones cummulative actions over time, that being a nurturing process...I don't think people are born evil, I believe they're nurtured evil, and that can come in the form of lack of parental supervision and from elements that reside outside the family circle.
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As a coach of a team of teenage girls, I can tell you right now that none of the parents of those girls knows 100% what their kids are doing (including the two coaches whose daughters play on the team). They try, but things don't quite get communicated 100% of the time. There have been instances where I've been casually speaking to a parent and mentioned injuries or player difficulties or upcoming events or opportunities and the parent(s) have responded along the lines of "No, she didn't tell me about that...."
I was at a retirement party once and was speaking with a guy who was taking his house into the age of computers by wiring everything into a PC system. Fibre optic cables ran through the walls of every room. When the mailman opened the mailbox, the computer would sound a chime over the intercom system. Music could be piped to individual rooms. Even the burglar alarm was wired into it. The alarm would be sounded whenever a window was opened, including the ones in his two teenage daughters' bedrooms. Nobody could get in unnoticed, and nobody could get out. ;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Sixpence, to be honest, I'm tired of people blaming others for their predictaments they're in financially.
Rip, this isn't about a financial predictament, it's about why parents have less time for their kids and having to work twice as much to accomplish the same thing as we did years ago.
With the best colleges in the world, the opportunities for education (Pell grants, etc.) anyone that has to work more than 40 hours has no excuse
Rip, that sounds good, but that is not the way it is. It's alot harder to find that job that gives you the financial freedom to work 40 hours.(BTW, the pell grant is next on the chopping block)
and if I could do it with nothing but the clothes on my back in 1979, then anyone can.
Rip, the same could be said about 39, 49, 59, or 69. But now you have to work twice the hours to do it. Not only are we passing on twice the debt on to our kids, we are passing on twice the work.
I don't think people are born evil, I believe they're nurtured evil, and that can come in the form of lack of parental supervision and from elements that reside outside the family circle.
I could not agree more.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
I don't think people are born evil, I believe they're nurtured evil, and that can come in the form of lack of parental supervision and from elements that reside outside the family circle.
I could not agree more.
There are those who are born evil. Human behavior is a complicated thing, and I believe that part of your personality is genetically coded into you by your parents.
I think that's why Labrador retrievers are known as happy-go-lucky dogs, whereas rottweilers aren't a species you want to mess around with.
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gofaster... I really would like to explore your theory that apparently teachers are different than everyone else and the only thing stopping them from murdering our children is that .... thay are not allowed to have firearms at school?
seems if they were that unstable they would just smuggle one in or.... that before all the laws were passed we would have seen lots of teacher/child shootings... maybe daily.
perhaps teachers are different than every other U.S. citizen but... for ordinary, not special, citizens, only a small percentage have an interest in getting a concealed carry permit. then they are trained and turned loose. These concealed carry citizens are the most law abiding group in the nation... they are extra polite and have taken severe beatings wihtout drawing their gun and fireing..
So how would a teacher who applied be any different? do you have proof of this or is this just your "feelings" that they would be so different from every other frigging human being on the planet?
lazs
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The fact that teachers are ordinary citizens is the precise reason why they shouldn't carry firearms.
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rip
when they are little it is easy
when they hit 16, 17, 18 (some earlier) - they are not - even with "instilled" values - gl sir when that day comes
the parents take some of the responsibility, but the nutbag boys take the brunt - even with 24hr attention who is to say they wouldn't have pulled the same crap
some are born nutbags, others learn it and still others earn it ... glad they offluffied themselves, hate to have seen the media circus putting them on trial
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gofaster... i guess I am missing the point then.. if all the data shows that "ordinary citizens" who have concealed carry permits are among the most law abiding and safest people in the world then how do you justify not allowing them to carry?
perhaps you have some data that shows how dangerous it is to allow concealed carry? if you do then handgun control ink... aka the brady bunch and finestein would love to see it as they are even more rabid than yu are but even they aren't dumb enough to suggest what you just did.
we really let those kids down at columbine... just one teacher who could do more than run away might have saved a lot of lives.
thank you for reminding us of how silly we were.
perhaps you would like to explain how airline pilots and sky marshals are killing people too now?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
strk... two incidents that come to mind are the 96(i think) misssissippi school shooting where a 30/30 wielding student was confronted by a teacher who ran to his car and got his 45 and stopped the guy befor he could shoot more than a couple.. the shooter RAN AWAY and was chased down by the teacher and held fo the police... another is a law school (can't recall where but can look it up) where a 380 weilding student started shooting.. another student was armed and drew on him telling him to drop the gun... which HE DID. at that point it was a fistfight instead of continueing to be a shooting of sheep.
lazs
Man that second story has a lawyer joke in it somewhere. The first guy would get a felony charge today for having a gun in a school zone.
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I really cannot find an arguement against lazs's point. If they allow cops to have guns on the school grounds, why not teachers that have the permits and training. As long as they keep them concelled it should not interfer with class.
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Both boys were on medication for depression,
Obviously it was the parents/TV/music/video games' fault.
-SW
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
I really cannot find an arguement against lazs's point. If they allow cops to have guns on the school grounds, why not teachers that have the permits and training. As long as they keep them concelled it should not interfer with class.
Sure, as long as you don't mind raising taxes to pay for all this training and paying them accordingly. But I would think that you would find that most parents and teachers prefer to keeps guns out of the classroom, students or teachers.
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Rip, I'm sure you are a grwat parent, but I have to take issue with one little point.
A parent is NOT your best friend, (in the traditional sense.. pal). He/she is a parent and as a parent needs to train, teach, raise with the best interests of the child at heart. I constantly tell and told my kids when they were unruley teens. "I ain't your pal... I am your protector, your conscience, your mentor, your parent."
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Originally posted by midnight Target
"I ain't your pal... I am your protector, your conscience, your mentor, your parent."
And I love you.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
A parent is NOT your best friend, (in the traditional sense.. pal). He/she is a parent and as a parent needs to train, teach, raise with the best interests of the child at heart. I constantly tell and told my kids when they were unruley teens. "I ain't your pal... I am your protector, your conscience, your mentor, your parent."
You forgot the rest.
"... and ultimately, you will leave my house. Bet on it."
:D
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Rip, I'm sure you are a grwat parent, but I have to take issue with one little point.
A parent is NOT your best friend, (in the traditional sense.. pal). He/she is a parent and as a parent needs to train, teach, raise with the best interests of the child at heart. I constantly tell and told my kids when they were unruley teens. "I ain't your pal... I am your protector, your conscience, your mentor, your parent."
Thats sad. My father was my best friend, all through out my life and today...had it not been for divorce, I'd have probably made it through my teens without being unruly.
..when they were unruley teens
I'm assuming you were either divorced or the kids were not your own, or they had a step mother?
Unruly teens and divorce make excellent bedfellows. Being their best friend can cure that, even through hardships like divorce...it certainly saved my a-s-s.
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Laz
This is the same gofaster that does not think people should be able to drink.
He does not care about peoples rights, he knows better.
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Originally posted by lazs2
gofaster... i guess I am missing the point then.. if all the data shows that "ordinary citizens" who have concealed carry permits are among the most law abiding and safest people in the world then how do you justify not allowing them to carry?
perhaps you have some data that shows how dangerous it is to allow concealed carry? if you do then handgun control ink... aka the brady bunch and finestein would love to see it as they are even more rabid than yu are but even they aren't dumb enough to suggest what you just did.
we really let those kids down at columbine... just one teacher who could do more than run away might have saved a lot of lives.
thank you for reminding us of how silly we were.
perhaps you would like to explain how airline pilots and sky marshals are killing people too now?
lazs
Airline pilots fly the plane and aren't responsible for teaching the passengers to pass a scholastic aptitude test. Airline pilots aren't responsible for instilling discipline in the cabin. Airline pilots don't have to shepherd children. Airline pilots have an autopilot for in-cockpit "downtime". Airline pilots aren't the only adults in the room.
Sky marshals go through firearms training and a psych evaluation before being issued a weapon.
If you make firearms training and psych evaluations part of the teacher program, (a) you're going to cost the taxpayers money they don't want to spend and (b) you're going to lose a lot of current teachers and potential teachers who don't want to go through "the police academy".
There was one person on that campus who was armed. He was taken out early by the shooters.
If you have a concealed carry permit, chances are you're not an ordinary citizen.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Laz
This is the same gofaster that does not think people should be able to drink.
He does not care about peoples rights, he knows better.
Don't twist my words. I said I wouldn't mind one bit if Prohibition came back, but I'm not going to go out trumpeting for it. I don't drink, my wife doesn't drink, and therefore it would have zero impact on our lives. Its like a leash law for cats. We don't have a cat, so therefore we could care less about it.
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go faster... many teachers have concealed carry permits now... Can you name one incident of them going crazy and "losing it" and killing people with the gun they have on them?
One thing tho.. this thread did finally drive you out in the open about your feelings that "ordinary" people shouldn't be able to defend themselves and that rights don't exist... only privilage. You have been hiding it pretty well with a very thin facade of fairness but now you are pretty well expossed. I woulda had more respect if you woulda come straight at it.
teachers could pick up a desk and pummel a kid to death.. they could hit them hard enough to kill em... they could go out to their car and run down a whole slug of em all clustered up... your arguement is not only weak but.... insulting to teachers... I mean... I thought I had a low opinion of teachers! but you... you have em as emotional subhumans... not even in the same class as the rest of us so far as handling anger.
staby... thank you. you should read lott's books if you want the other side (not the medias) of the arguement.. they are extremely well documented and no anti gun nut has ever refuted his data.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
go faster... many teachers have concealed carry permits now... Can you name one incident of them going crazy and "losing it" and killing people with the gun they have on them?
One thing tho.. this thread did finally drive you out in the open about your feelings that "ordinary" people shouldn't be able to defend themselves and that rights don't exist... only privilage.
Where did I say that? I said teachers shouldn't be allowed to carry firearms in a classroom. If you have to pass a background check, or attend a training class, or need anything stricter than having a driver's license and voter registration card, then you're no longer an ordinary citizen because you just went through another level of testing for competence. In short, if you're trained with a weapon, you're not ordinary.
Are you suggesting that we should do away with the concealed weapon permit requirements, which include a successful completion of a firearms safety class, so that ordinary citizens could carry? If you wanted ordinary citizens to pack heat, then the only requirement would be a voter registration card.
If we allowed teachers to carry concealed weapons, would that really make our schools any safer than if we installed metal detectors and stationed more trained police officers as "school resource officers"? I haven't attended an NRA firearms safety course, but I suspect that it doesn't address an urban warfare environment, which is what the police officer at Columbine had on his hands.
And another thing about teachers: if you've ever worked in a classroom, you'd know that even the most stable personalities are capable of losing their heads. Teaching is one of the most stressful occupations ever created, right up there with ATC, fire and police.
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Don't mind Gofaster... he might be a raging liberal, but he's a nice guy ! :)
If you have a concealed carry permit, chances are you're not an ordinary citizen
Very VERY untrue. In over 30 states now (I'm sure the NRA website will have a list), there are laws called the "right to carry" laws. Basically, the law says that if you are of sound mind, and have no criminal background (ie no felonies), pass a basic handgun safety class, the state is required to issue you a concealed carry license if it is requested.
The handgun safety classes usually are about 4-6 hours in length, and have not shooting requirements and no test to pass at the end.
In these states its quite easy to get a concealed carry permit, and you would be suprised to know how common they are amongst the populace.
Its only in states like California, New York, New Jersey, and a few others where it takes considerable effort, money, and usually some political connections to get a permit.
In fact Gofaster, I believe that Florida is a right to carry state.
Edit: Back to the original subject. Enough of the blame game. The people responsible for the Columbine shootings, are the shooters themselves. Its ridiculous anymore how its "the computer games", "violence on tv", "they just weren't cuddled enough as babies..." Bull and Shiete. Too many people today never learned what personal responbility means.
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gofaster... where have I suggested that the teachers should simply grab a gun and go to class with no training at all?
I said concealed carry and that is what I meant. You yourself admit that expensive police in the school is working... if students didn't know if teachers were armed or not it would have the same effect... the effect that has been proven over and over.
what bothers me is that you seem to be wanting both sides to these anti gun threads that you bring up but that you don't really... you have your mind made up and seem to get angry when your "feelings" about firearms rights are refuted with fact. you appeal to everyones emotions when you are cornered... I expect you to fall back on "do it for the children" or "if it will just save one life..." any minute.
I give you the stats... the facts.. and you give me your "feelings"
all liberal tactict that i find distasteful.
lazs
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Basically, the law says that if you are of sound mind, and have no criminal background (ie no felonies), pass a basic handgun safety class, the state is required to issue you a concealed carry license if it is requested.
The handgun safety classes usually are about 4-6 hours in length, and have not shooting requirements and no test to pass at the end.
Correct. They require a signed certificate that you successfully completed the NRA (or equivalent) firearms course, which means you went through training, which means you know how to handle a gun, which means you went through training most people haven't had, which means you're no longer an ordinary citizen. ;)
You forgot to mention the "no restraining order" requirement.
So, I'm still against ordinary citizens having a concealed carry permit, because ordinary citizens don't know how to handle a gun. Even if a teacher has a concealed carry permit, I wouldn't want that teacher packing heat at school because that teacher isn't trained in urban warfare.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Edit: Back to the original subject. Enough of the blame game. The people responsible for the Columbine shootings, are the shooters themselves. Its ridiculous anymore how its "the computer games", "violence on tv", "they just weren't cuddled enough as babies..." Bull and Shiete. Too many people today never learned what personal responbility means.
I believe it can be a combination of factors, environmental, parental, and biological. I mean, if they hadn't been introduced to "Doom" and maybe "Shag the Sheep", it may have been innocent farm animals that were slaughtered...( Okay, a bit out there, but you get my point..kids are impressionable)
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Originally posted by lazs2
I said concealed carry and that is what I meant. You yourself admit that expensive police in the school is working... if students didn't know if teachers were armed or not it would have the same effect... the effect that has been proven over and over.
Does concealed carry include training in urban warfare? Apparently not. If not, then concealed carry requiremenst fall woefully short of being sufficient for insuring that the teachers carrying the concealed weapons will be able to use those weapons responsibly and won't add to the risk inherent in allowing firearms to be discharged in an urban environment.
So my point remains: I don't want teachers to carry guns in the classroom. Today's standards aren't sufficient to permit it.
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"urban warfare"??? what the hell do you know about urban warfare... sheesh. Are you saying that none of the concealed carry permit holders should carry concealed... in public? or, are we back to your low opinion of teachers compared to ordinary people and cops.
The times guns were used by ordinary people in school shootings.... things got better fast... in columbine where no one but the bad guys had guns... things just got worse and worse.
What you are saying is that letting the kids die is preferable to the slaughter that concealed carry permitg holders wreak even tho.... they all carry (by the millons) in "Urban" situations daily and they are proven to not only cause no problems but to solve them.
Why would you sacrafice kids to your ideals? especially when it is so obvious that you have no idea of what you are talking about?
also.. the idea isn't to have a shootout. it is to prevent shootings... if the cowardly little darlings think they will encounter aremed resitance they will be deterred... that is a fact and the way having cops in school works. that is the way that crime drops in concealed carry states.
you don't know anything about guns or urban warfare or anything... you are grasping at straws.. you can provide no proof for any of the doom you spout and cannot refute any of the REAL data that proves you are full of it.
lazs
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I'm saying that if the only requirement a teacher needs to carry a gun in a classroom is a concealed weapon permit, then that standard is too low. If you want to arm a teacher, you're going to have to develop a training course that's a bit more complicated than a 4-5 hour class with no exam.
The school resource officer at Columbine was dealing with two heavily armed men. As far as he was concerned, there could've been more, and he didn't know the school was mined with hidden bombs. Everybody was a threat. Children were running everywhere - just watch the video tapes.
Harris and Klebold started firing at 11:19, the school resource officer returned fire at 11:28, and other deputies arrived on scene around 11:30. Trained SWAT teams didn't clear the buildings until an hour later, and these are professionals trained in urban warfare. Do you really think that a handful of teachers, with nothing more than a 4-5 hour class in firearm safety, carrying concealed handguns would've saved the day?
My ideals have the goal of saving lives, not adding to the casualty list. The last thing I want is to see sons and daughters dropping dead in the cafeteria because they made the mistake of running in a blind panic through friendly fire.
edit: I tell you what, you show me data where armed teachers would've prevented school shootings and I'll support your position.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Thats sad. My father was my best friend, all through out my life and today...had it not been for divorce, I'd have probably made it through my teens without being unruly.
..when they were unruley teens
I'm assuming you were either divorced or the kids were not your own, or they had a step mother?
Unruly teens and divorce make excellent bedfellows. Being their best friend can cure that, even through hardships like divorce...it certainly saved my a-s-s.
Hehe... call me in 10 years.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Hehe... call me in 10 years.
Actually, I'll have my son call you in 8 years when he's a teen. ;)
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We should give the students guns too, if all the good students had guns that day, they would have killed the bad students with guns.
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ok... so lets get this straight... gofaster you are saying that if teachers that have a concealed carry permit have "urban warfare" training then it would be ok with you to have them be in the schools?
All concealed carry clases have some element of urban warfare training to them...
you are grasping at straws... creating a problem where none exists.. no concealed carry permit holders create problems in urban environments that is a proven fact... you claim they might.... that is proven to be wrong.
face it.. you are simply neurotic about guns and will put more and more restrictions on em till they become useless to the people who need them... you do this even in the face of evidence that shows that your view will kill people for no reason.
This is to me the defenition of a liberal... I am glad that you are being so obvious about it.
lazs
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ok... so lets get this straight... gofaster you are saying that if teachers that have a concealed carry permit have "urban warfare" training then it would be ok with you to have them be in the schools?
All concealed carry clases have some element of urban warfare training to them...
you are grasping at straws... creating a problem where none exists.. no concealed carry permit holders create problems in urban environments that is a proven fact... you claim they might.... that is proven to be wrong.
face it.. you are simply neurotic about guns and will put more and more restrictions on em till they become useless to the people who need them... you do this even in the face of evidence that shows that your view will kill people for no reason that could have been saved.
This is to me the defenition of a liberal... I am glad that you are being so obvious about it.
lazs
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"edit: I tell you what, you show me data where armed teachers would've prevented school shootings and I'll support your position."
gofaster... you want me to prove that teachers with concealed carry permits would act the same way as the other million or so concealled carry permit holders? tell you what... you need to support my position since I can point to the mississippi incident where a teacher prevented a school shooting from escalating but you can point to no example (that is zero) one where a teacher with a concealed carry permit caused any problem... "urban warfare trainning" or not.
lazs
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Proof that kids need parents, and that your careers should never stand between you and nurturing/raising your children to be the best they can be. To limit what violence they are exposed to involving video games, what they watch on TV, and monitor their every move. Be intrusive. Know who their friends are.
Too bad they may hate you for a few awkward teenage years, they'll thank you later on in life.
very much agree, cause work and careers is more important to many people now than their childs, and that is too bad :(
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Originally posted by lazs2
" tell you what... you need to support my position since I can point to the mississippi incident where a teacher prevented a school shooting from escalating but you can point to no example (that is zero) one where a teacher with a concealed carry permit caused any problem... "urban warfare trainning" or not.
lazs
Do you have a link to that incident? Or are you thinking of the Arkansas incident where 2 kids pulled a false fire alarm and fired into the crowd indiscriminately as the students filed through the doors?
I can't point to an example where a teach with a concealed carry permit caused a problem in a classroom because - ta da - no teachers carry concealed weapons in a classroom.
edit: Found this from CNN (http://www.courttv.com/archive/trials/woodham/) and this compilation (http://www.rkba.org/users/myrick.txt) but it appears the shooter had done his business and was attempting to flee when the ass't principle retrieved a .45 and pointed at the suspect to prevent his escape. So, arming the principle wouldn't have done anything to prevent the killings. Those students would still be dead, and we might even have a "hero" inadvertantly losing a round through a wall. What strikes me as odd is that there's no mention of a police presence on the school grounds. Where was the police resource officer during this gunfight?
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
It is hitlers birthday.
And Bart Simpson's, the only way Homer remembered it was because it was the same date as Hitler
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In the mississippi incident the teacher had to run to his car to get his .45.... when he got back the kid was reloading. when the teacher pointed the .45 at him he stopped and ran out to his car.. the teacher gave chase rightly thinking that the kid would continue to kill when he found a place where citizens weren't spoiling his fun by rudely pointing guns at him.
No telling how many more the kid would have killed if he would have got reloaded and not been chased off.
In a law school a student pulled a gun on a shooter and told him to drop his weapon... the shooter did and was beaten by three former targets.
I like those outcomes... teachers have had guns in school before the bans. there have been no incidents of them "loseing it" that I can think of...
Also... many teachers have concealed carry permits... they carry in "urban" environments. Can you name a time that any of them have come unhinged and just started shooting the people around them? Why would they act any differently in a school situation?
lazs
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He wasn't reloading, he was escaping. He was done shooting. The only thing Myrick accomplished was apprehending a fleeing felon.
Alarmed at the sound of gunfire in the halls of his Pearl, Mississippi, high school, Assistant Principal Joel Myrick ran to his car to retrieve a pistol. The shooter was an armed student who marched through the school firing on his fellow classmates and teachers. The assailant's efforts to escape the scene ground to a halt when another student used his own vehicle to force the suspect's white car into the grass, where it spun to a stop. Myrick used the delay to catch up to the armed student and hold him for police.
Cited from the 2nd source in my previous post.
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Originally posted by lazs2
In a law school a student pulled a gun on a shooter and told him to drop his weapon... the shooter did and was beaten by three former targets.
Also... many teachers have concealed carry permits... they carry in "urban" environments. Can you name a time that any of them have come unhinged and just started shooting the people around them? Why would they act any differently in a school situation?
lazs
Got a source for that law school incident?
Carrying in an urban environment, and carrying in a classroom are two different things and you know it.
edit: did your work for you and found a CNN story (http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/01/16/law.school.shooting/) about it. Seems the shooter went directly to the professor's office, shot him point-blank, went to another professor's office, shot him point-blank, then went down the stairs and fired at 3 students. He was tackled by 4 male students as he fled the scene. I don't see where arming the professors would've saved their lives - the 2nd one certainly had a chance to flee if he had seen the danger coming. The better bet would've been to arm the students.
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no... the incident in mississippi hapened as I said... the teacher pointed the .45 at the shooter who was reloading. There is a link to the real story in another thread.
in the law schools case the real events can be read in John Lott's book "The Bias against guns" the shooter was stopped by an armed student who told him to drop the gun... the shooter dropped the gun and the other three tackled him. Lott reported that the stdent (get the name and details when I get home) that stopped the incident with the gun was interviewed by 20 or so reporters and he told all of them that he had used a gun to make the shooter drop his... all the students collaborate this story... only one or maybe two or the papers even mentioned this.
probly a good reason why you haved formed such bizzare ideas...
but... good to see we drew you out of the closet.... will be difficult for you to start seemingly non biased gun discussions in the future.
why is carrying in a school so special... sometimes those cops you trust are security guards... cops themselves have no training for shooting in a school and cops that rfespond are first come first served and yet.... there is no record of the incidents being any different than any other shootings involving mass murder.
lazs
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I just looked up the Appalachian School of Law shooting and read accounts by 6 different reporters from 3 different Countries. NO ONE mentions the guy being disarmed by an armed student. ALL stories agreed that he was tackled and disarmed by a group of students.
I don't believe there is that big of a conspiracy against firearms lazs. Maybe Mr. Lott has it wrong.
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http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/5/20/110016.shtml
Ok, quick search.. lott claims that fully 1/3 of all school shootings were stopped by armed citizens ... I don't think I would call him a liar considering that a lot of people have tried and failed in the past.
mt... I will give the source for the only paper that reported what ALL the people involved in the law school shooting told the reporters...
since you couldn't find even one article (and many of them from 'respected newspapers' ) that reported the incident honestly.... would that not prove the bias to you? I mean... how do they leave out the fact that the shooter had allready been disarmed by a fellow student BEFORE he was tackled? seems that it is more than an oversight if that is the case wouldn't you say?
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ok..the two papers that reported the story correctly were two local ones the richmond times dispatch and the charlotte observer.
one of the men who stopped the attack and actualy forced the gunman to drop his weapon was Tracy Bridges.
Tracy appeared with Lott on Larry Elders radio program on KABC and said that he had told this version (telling the gunman to drop his gun while pointing his revolver at him and the others tackling the gunman after he was forced to drop his gun) to at least 20 or more "reporters".
He was "shocked" at what the washington post reported and they called (lott and bridges) the post and talked toMaria Glod of the post who confirmed that all the witnesses had verifyed both bridges and Gross's (the other armed student) account.
she claimed that she had not intentionaly left out the gun or its part in stopping the spree. she claimed the focus of the story was on the "impact" rather than the attack itself and that there were "space limitations"
I have no idea what the excuse was for all the other reports you found MT but ya gotta admit that if Lott, Bridges, Gross, and the other students and the two local newspapers aren't blatant bizzare liars....
then... the media manipulated you..
you did my homework for me with the below statement and proved it. thanks...
"I just looked up the Appalachian School of Law shooting and read accounts by 6 different reporters from 3 different Countries. NO ONE mentions the guy being disarmed by an armed student. ALL stories agreed that he was tackled and disarmed by a group of students. "
lazs
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Amazing story lazs.
I need to look into this further. Thanks.
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good luck.. there seems to be allmost no reporting on how school shootings, or any shooting is stopped unless swat or a policeman does it. Lott claims that allmost 1/3 of all the school shootings were stopped by a citizen with a gun well before the cops got there..
I know that all the anti gun nut groups are trying tgo tear his books and data apart page by page so if this was wrong we would shurely have heard it by now. He says it often when talking about school shotings.
If the guys who were their said it then I would say it was true. Tried to research the richmond paper but it won't do a search for back issues. If the woman at the post was missquoted she would be screaming bloody murder. She apparently veryifys the story.
There is an element of unnewsworthhiness to a crime that is stopped but... In the law school case and the mississippi case the story would have been more interesting if they had left the real ending in. So why do i? unless there is an agenda.
I would really suggest you read Lott's book if this whole thing disturbs you at all.
"The Bias Against Guns" (Why Allmost Everything You've Heard About Gun Control Is Wrong)
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
good luck.. there seems to be allmost no reporting on how school shootings, or any shooting is stopped unless swat or a policeman does it. Lott claims that allmost 1/3 of all the school shootings were stopped by a citizen with a gun well before the cops got there..
I did a search on the Richmond paper and got no hits about the Appalachian School of Law shooting. I'm not saying they didn't report it, but there's no way to confirm what they reported when it happened. The only info I kept finding from other news sources was the version where 4 students tackled the shooter as he fled. I'm guessing most of the papers went with an AP wire report and only local and tv news crews were on scene. I'm surprised somebody hasn't done an in-depth report of this event.
If the professors had been armed, it wouldn't have made much difference. Coroner reports show that the two professors were shot point-blank. I doubt they saw it coming or they would have fled.
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One minor issue I might have with the newpaper reports being biased is that well over 50% of the newspapers in this Country are right of center. So if there were a nationwide conspiracy it would have to include both conservatives and liberals.
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I have never heard that over 50% of papers are right leaning. After you read the book on the real data maybe we can discuss it again?
gofaster... he didn't kill both professors at the same time and... I don't say having even a policeman on duty would prevent some death but.... armed teachers would not only be a powerful deterent (wouldn't it be better if the guy never even attempted it?) not only the deterent factor but.... walk8ing through the crowd shooting till you ran out of ammo would no longer be a viable thing to do...
still.... anything is better than "run away run away" as a policy.
oh... not to take away from the bravery of the students who eventually did tackle the gunman at the law school... they were working thier way around him using whatever cover they could find... very brave to even do that while he was armed... but face it... it would be stupid to run at an armed man who had just shot 2 people. They waited till the armed student disarmed him.
lazs