Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Jester on April 21, 2004, 01:21:37 AM
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GATHERING STORM: D-DAY APPROACHES
It's early 1944. The Axis are being beat back by the Allies on all fronts. In basic defense mode, Germany is holding onto France out of pure determination, not force. The Allies are gearing up towards their planned D-Day invasion in May but the date looks like it may slip to early June. While American bomber and fighter squadrons hold the northen part of the airfields, the British forces south pose an important element. Churchill may invade early, but what does Eisenhower have in store up north?
ALLIES:
(Northern England: US Forces)
A-20G
B-26B
C-47A
P-47D-11
P-51B
(Southern England: British Forces)
A-20G
Mosquito Mk VI
Spitfire IX
Typhoon
C-47
Vehicles - Both:
M's
Ostwind
Panzer IV
AXIS:
Bf 109G-2
Bf 109G-6
Bf 110G-2
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Ju 88A-4
C-47
Vehicles
M series
Ostie
Panzer
Tiger (Germany only in France)
ARENA SETTINGS:
Map: Small BOB
Fuel: 1.7
Flak: 0.7 (CT Norm)
Dar: Historical
Downtimes: 30 minutes all objects
Troops to capture: 15 troops
Ships will be removed out of play and command disabled
Forkster is on vacation so I will be doing this one.
GOOD LUCK AND GOOD HUNTING! ! :aok
Jester
CT STAFF Aux.
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Have a request for both sides flying, if your on Thursday night for this set up... would anyone mind recording it both Axis and Allied. I am going to try to put something together....
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Will do Stream. Your missions are always the highlight of the week for me.
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not to nitpick since i;d be flying axis in all probility, bu ti don't think the 109g-10 was available ths iearly in '44.
an aside - why ignore artik's request to for an israeli independence setup this coming week?
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I'll just pop in here and state that Artik's request was not ignored.
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Originally posted by Shane
not to nitpick since i;d be flying axis in all probility, bu ti don't think the 109g-10 was available ths iearly in '44.
an aside - why ignore artik's request to for an israeli independence setup this coming week?
1. The Me-109G-10 (These were conversions from ME-109G-6's - factory G-10's didn't start coming out till October 44) started going into Staffel sized service during March 1944.
2. His request hasn't been forgotten and is being discussed as we speak.
3. This set-up was already made up - Fork went on vacation and I volunteered to put it up for him.
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Jester,
What about FAA? Did they use F4F-4/FM2 Wildcat, TBM Avenger, and "Early" F4U-1 (Take place as 1A).
Rafe
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Yes they did Rafe,
But the FAA pretty much stayed out of the Channel area till D-Day. Most of the fighting in this area was done by the land based aircraft.
Most of the FAA's fighting at this time was done up around Norway and out in the Atlantic till they moved to the Pacific.
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Hey Jester I believe that the LW has too many aircraft to choose from. perhaps you should enable all the allied inventory. Perhaps it would be OK to honor Artik's request this week btw.
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Originally posted by Soulyss
I'll just pop in here and state that Artik's request was not ignored.
So why aren't we flying in Israel then?
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yea!
great setup.
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if the luftwhiners have 109g-10 allies should have tempest ;)
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Originally posted by Furball
if the luftwhiners have 109g-10 allies should have tempest ;)
actually they should dump the raf planes from this setup. i mean by this point the raf had minimal impact on the air war.
:D
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The G10 will will rule?
Just how many were modified in the field before full production?
You allies better go practice. The last time this set-up was here:
P-51B 441 Deaths 231 Killls of G10
P-47D-25 292 Deaths 196 Kills of G10
P-38L 327 Deaths 201 Kills of G10
Damn near two to one losses
109G10 has best record in the CT. The F4U is not even close but is seldom seen, as well as the Tempest!
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Storch, the reason he has activated all axis aircraft is due to the fact that in '44 the axis had all their aircraft models running and keeping updated. The allies didnt have all their planes in this event, thy had some, but not all. The Luftwaffe tried to enable as much as there lW aircraft in all fronts as possible. And as far as your RAF knowledge goes, toward the end of war the RAF grew alot stronger in due time. The beginning of the war they were weak but they got alot better and stronger more updated with Spitfire models, so.. trust me m8, I know alot of RAF crap. Maybe not the aces part, but i do know a good amount of LW and RAF history, mainly RAF.
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Hey Jester
I Like the idea bud, sounds like fun!. I can't wait to climb into my cockpit of my 109 and let all our wolfpack unleash against the allies! hehehehe
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Fork's set-up - he planned it and picked the aircraft - He gets the credit.
I am just running it for him while he takes some time off.
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I have to agree with maggiehawk and furball you need to add the entire allied inventory including the meteor (262) the G10 will obliterate them.
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Oh, stop whining. You've got the best Bf109G-10 possible. It is a 452mph aircraft when it is taking the place of the early G-10s which were 426mph aircraft.
I guess you might be OK with a setup if the Allies had the Boston Mk III, P-40B, Hurricane Mk I and Spitfire Mk I against your Ar234, Bf109G-10, Bf110G-2, Fw190D-9, Me163, Me262 and Ta152H-1s.
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on't forget one thing, it's not always the damn plane make or ability that makes it over ranked, The Hands of a Pilot flying the aircraft has alot to do with it as well. :)
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How about the D-25 with or instead of the D-11?
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G-10s were not made from old airframes, they were produced alongside the G-14 as an evolution of the G-6 with DB605D and MW-50 while the G-14 was the evolution of G-6 with DB605AM with MW-50.
It is true some of the first airframes used for the G-10 were from new airframes intended to be used for G-6s, or from airframes planned for mounting the DB605AM (G-14) in case no DB605AM were available. Hence the twin data plate found on some G-10.
The AH G10 has the performance of C3 fuel and 1.98 ata. C-3 wasn't used by 109 units until '45. Even then C-3 wasn't widely available amoung all the 109 gruppes. Most C3 fuel was used by 190 gruppes.
Butch posted the below in this thread
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=108817&highlight=Fuel
According to a document dated late January 1945 coming from DB the 1.80 had just been cleared following serious troubles (pre-ignition) reported by the unit testing the 1.80 ata boost. It is also noted that following the clearance of the 1.8ata boost the 1.98ata operational tests could now begin but with concern about the sparkplugs thermal resistance IIRC.
and
C3 was not used by 109 units until the 1.98ata boost was cleared, they relied on B4+MW-50 so that C3 could go to the 190 units. And even after the clearance only few gruppen got it because of shortages due not only to C3 production but also to C3 delivery to the units.
in March 1945 only two units of the Luftflotte 6 both equipped with G-10 were using C3, one being IV/JG 4 the other being II/JG 11, and no K-4 units at all.
and
AFAIK 1.98ata boost was cleared late february but it seems to have been slowly introduced into service, i suspect the adjustments needed on the engine and the change of sparkplugs type (supply problems ???) took longer than expected. From other documents i know that C3 and B4 had severe quality problems beginning in late 1944. While it was not much of a problem with low boost, it had some serious effect on higher boost, so it might also have slowed down the introduction of 1.98ata boost. At least DB documents underlined the need for cleaner fuels than those in use at that time.
You can safely assume that by march 1945 1.98 ata boost was being introduced, unfortunately i do not have much details for April 1945, but i doubt it would have changed much, given the situation.
My book(s) will takle the 109 development, history and technical side.
Anyway you look at the G10 wasnt in service until late 44 and the AH G10 has the performance of a Feb Match '45 limited G10.
The common 109 in service would have been the 109G-6 just like the one we have in AH. The G-10 doesnt belong in this type of set up.
Neither does the p38L, it came into service after the 262 and D9.
The allied planes would be D11, p51b, B26 A20g and B17.
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Originally posted by storch
I have to agree with maggiehawk and furball you need to add the entire allied inventory including the meteor (262) the G10 will obliterate them.
Didn't I see the Spit 9 in this setup?
We'll see. My bet is that it the numbers will still favor the allies throughout this setup. I'm anticipating a spit 9 v. g10 week.
- oldman
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yep probably OM but the G10 will own, most likely. the only way this could be better is if the LW got the D-9 as well. then it would be complete.
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I dont care either way. If the G-10 is in there I'll fly it some, I can deal with it if its not. I prefer the 110G2 for buff killin, and the 109G2 is better for furballin, the 190A5 is good all around too, but if our version of the G-10 wasn't operational yet then it shouldnt be in there.
How far north are the USAAF bases going to be?
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Originally posted by Grits
but if our version of the G-10 wasn't operational yet then it shouldnt be in there.
Why don't they just pull the G-10. Wasnt this much worry about the Typhoon in the PTO when it wasnt historically a couple of weeks ago though huh? Pull the P-38L too while your at it. If the G10 can't fly why should the 38L. It wasnt operational at this tme.
Then we can all shadup and fly.:D
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If the G-10 goes then lose the '38. BTW, when did the D-25 become operatonal?
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Lowe, I think you know I'll probably be flying LW just about all week so I'm not motivated by any bias towards one side or the other, but I think operational deployment dates should be followed regardless of playbalance (there that damn "balance" word again). Along the same lines, I think Slash is right, I dont know for sure but I think the P-47D-25 was in operational use by then. The D-11 performs better than the D-25 but has the obvious downside of poor cockpit views and lower ordinance loadout.
Also, shouldn't the RAF have Bostons instead of the A-20G?
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I'm with Lowe on this one, but if you leave the G10, no one will be able to catch me and no one will be able to run away from me. what could be wrong with that? *refrains from utilizing the allied bias complaint*.
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Originally posted by Jester
Yes they did Rafe,
But the FAA pretty much stayed out of the Channel area till D-Day. Most of the fighting in this area was done by the land based aircraft.
Most of the FAA's fighting at this time was done up around Norway and out in the Atlantic till they moved to the Pacific.
Ah, I see, Jester. :D
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Grits.
It wasnt anything aimed at you. It was aimed at the guys that had the fastest planes for the last two weeks , and fast planes were not a problem until the other guys have the fastest plane.
I agree with you if the G10 wasnt there , don't put it in. Field modifications are not the same as a factory "MODEL".
Before the debate even got started the luftwhinner tag was thrown out by a guy that was trying to whine the Tempest into the setup.:rofl
Throw out the G10, and throw out the P-38L , and lets fly.:aok
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Remember this one?
Mr Fork's Rhine 1945 set-up (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=104853)
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CROW IS NOW BEING SERVED IN THE DINING CAR
OK, after the BS storm over the 109G-10 I went back and pulled out all my Luftwaffe books and found out I was mistaken. (It happens occasionally, even to me.) :D
First, the set-up is dated for MARCH 1944 as my cut-off date.
The 109G-10 did not begin to see service till October of 44 instead of March 44. It was wrong on the master list used by the CT Staff.
The P-38L did not come into service till June of 44.
The P-47D-25 did not come into service till April of 44.
So, to cut down on the ant-acid bill of the Allies both the 109G-10 and the P-38L will be pulled and the Allies will have to use the D-11 Jugg and try to get along as best they can with the Spit IX and the 51B "Runstang".
END OF DEBATE. SET-UP WILL GO UP AS LISTED AT BEGINNING OF POST. HAVE A NICE DAY! :D
I hope you enjoy this set-up as much as I have enjoyed bringing it to you. :rolleyes:
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I knew it wasnt aimed at me Lowe, I neglected to put a ":)" after that first sentence. :D
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Kinda feel like Lowe on this one though. I don't remember hearing the "Wailing and Nashing of Teeth" over the Typhoon being put into the Burma set-up awhile back. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Jester
CROW IS NOW BEING SERVED IN THE DINING CAR
OK, after the BS storm over the 109G-10 I went back and pulled out all my Luftwaffe books and found out I was mistaken. (It happens occasionally, even to me.) :D
First, the set-up is dated for MARCH 1944 as my cut-off date.
The 109G-10 did not begin to see service till October of 44 instead of March 44. It was wrong on the master list used by the CT Staff.
The P-38L did not come into service till June of 44.
The P-47D-25 did not come into service till April of 44.
So, to cut down on the ant-acid bill of the Allies both the 109G-10 and the P-38L will be pulled and the Allies will have to use the D-11 Jugg and try to get along as best they can with the Spit IX and the 51B "Runstang".
END OF DEBATE. SET-UP WILL GO UP AS LISTED AT BEGINNING OF POST. HAVE A NICE DAY! :D
I hope you enjoy this set-up as much as I have enjoyed bringing it to you. :rolleyes:
The cook would like to know if you'll be having soup, or salad with your meal skipper?:D
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Originally posted by Jester
Kinda feel like Lowe on this one though. I don't remember hearing the "Wailing and Nashing of Teeth" over the Typhoon being put into the Burma set-up awhile back. :rolleyes:
Some of us did post nasty comments about both though.
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Kinda feel like Lowe on this one though. I don't remember hearing the "Wailing and Nashing of Teeth" over the Typhoon being put into the Burma set-up awhile back.
Didnt really seem like a whine fest at all to me. (compared to some we've seen) Your original set up looked fine to me. Do we really need to be that dead on as far as dates to get some decent plane sets? Just an opinion, with or with them it ought to be fun.
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To some it is a MAJOR problem.
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Given the amount of complaints, that might be the most advisable way to go Jester. pick a time period, use what was there and be done with it. That way there can be no hedging for either side. If someone is unhappy then there is always the MA or IL-2.
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r u sure there wasn't a 109f still laying around there in 44? :)
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Originally posted by Eagler
r u sure there wasn't a 109f still laying around there in 44? :)
If he gets a 109F then I get a Spit V.
oh wait, I would actually have to log in... lol.
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To some it is a MAJOR problem.
True, but ive yet to see you botch a set up,:aok
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Boy was I confused until I realized there was an edit to the original post. I was wondering why everyone was complaining about a plane that wasn't in the setup.
I guess it's a good thing I kept myself out of college, would have been wasting taxpayer's money :)
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Some slight changes:
CT Set-Up for April 23: GATHERING STORM: D-Day Approches
GATHERING STORM: D-DAY APPROACHES
It's early 1944. The Axis are being beat back by the Allies on all fronts. In basic defense mode, Germany is holding onto France out of pure determination, not force. The Allies are gearing up towards their planned D-Day invasion in May but the date looks like it may slip to early June. While American bomber and fighter squadrons hold the northen part of the airfields, the British forces south pose an important element. Churchill may invade early, but what does Eisenhower have in store up north?
ALLIES:
(US FORCES AVAILABLE FROM AIRFIELDS IN ENGLAND)
A-20G
B-26B
C-47A
P-47D-11
P-51B
(BRITISH FORCES AVAILABLE FROM VEHICLE BASES IN ENGLAND)
A-20G
Mosquito Mk VI
Spitfire IX
Typhoon
C-47
Vehicles - Both:
M's
Ostwind
Panzer IV
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
AXIS:
Bf 109G-2
Bf 109G-6
Bf 110G-2
Fw 190A-5
Fw 190A-8
Fw 190F-8
Ju 88A-4
C-47
Vehicles
M series
Ostie
Panzer
Tiger (Germany only in France)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ARENA SETTINGS:
Map: Small BOB
Fuel: 1.7
Flak: 0.7 (CT Norm)
Dar: Historical
Downtimes: 30 minutes all objects
Troops to capture: 15 troops
Ships will be removed out of play and command disabled
Allied aircraft will be availalbe from both airfields and VH's in France.
Forkster is on vacation so I will be doing this one.
GOOD LUCK AND GOOD HUNTING! !
Jester
CT STAFF Aux.
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Originally posted by Shane
actually they should dump the raf planes from this setup. i mean by this point the raf had minimal impact on the air war.
:D
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Originally posted by Furball
study up on your zoology, that's no worm, it's an anaconda!
:eek:
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I don't think that the Germans had retired all of the 109F-4s and JU-87s by D-Day. The Allies have one hell of a mix of performing aircraft, in all fairness the Germans need the 109F to the Allied mix in furballs.
eskimo
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I have to agree with Eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I don't think that the Germans had retired all of the 109F-4s and JU-87s by D-Day. The Allies have one hell of a mix of performing aircraft, in all fairness the Germans need the 109F to the Allied mix in furballs.
eskimo
Actual they were. The ju87 saw service on the east front but was with drawn from front line service in the west.
Take the opportunity to learn the G-6. I was an avid 109F-4 fan until spending time in events flying the G-6.
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Ahhh...another setup where the P-38 was left out even though it was a major participant.
ack-ack
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the p38l wasn't, bribe HT into modelling a few more variants and you would see it more often.
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I don't really see the big deal...the difference between the late-model P-38J's and the P-38L's was... none.
Hell, I think the only difference between the early J's and the late J's/L's was that the early J's lacked dive flaps.
I'd say to keep the P-38, it is a lot more fun to fly than the P-47.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I don't really see the big deal...the difference between the late-model P-38J's and the P-38L's was... none.
Hell, I think the only difference between the early J's and the late J's/L's was that the early J's lacked dive flaps.
I'd say to keep the P-38, it is a lot more fun to fly than the P-47.
Urchin, if the dive recovery flaps were the only difference, the P-38L would probably fit in. However, the P-38L had hydraulically boosted ailerons that tripled its roll rate above 250 mph as compared to the J model. Only the P-38J-25-LO had the boosted ailerons, and this was considered an interim model (only 220 were built) between the J-20 and the L-1 with the engines being the only significant difference. P-38Ls also had tail warning radar installed, and they were plumbed for pnuematic G-suits as well. HTC has elected not to model pilot G-suits in the late USAAF fighters. Think of the whining that would ensue because blackout occurs two Gs higher than in aircraft without them.. A significant advantage for already very capable aircraft.
I can see only one thing that would need be fixed, and it's something that HTC would have to do: All P-47s in the ETO had the paddle-blade props by March of 1944.
My regards,
Widewing
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I dont see the big deal about the P-38 either, its no more uber than a P-51B or a P-47D. Its nice to have some variety, just think... maybe some players would pick it over the Spitfire IX if they had the chance.
Thats not to say it HAS to be in the setup, if the designer is looking for a certain set, fine, lets respect that.
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Originally posted by Urchin
I don't really see the big deal...the difference between the late-model P-38J's and the P-38L's was... none.
Hell, I think the only difference between the early J's and the late J's/L's was that the early J's lacked dive flaps.
I'd say to keep the P-38, it is a lot more fun to fly than the P-47.
Well that may be but if the design is set to represent a given time frame then hold to it.
If it was just a "late war allied / axis" set up then enable them all. I made a long post about leaving out the G-10. Some folks think the G-10 is more fun then the G-6. Some like the D-9 over the A-8 or A-5. I always thouyght the D-11 is more fun then the 38.
I don't think the p38l would make much a difference a2a but as a jabo it would rule, why fly a bomber when 2 or 3 38s can level a field.
Anyway, after breaking ranks with my LW brethren I couldn't very well let the let the farm bois get a freebie. :) (Just kidding farm bois, I was just trying to maintain consistency)
Widewing,
Theres a whole lot about "gs" that Ht doesnt account for. Pilot physical condition, height, weight seat position etc... Everything is a standard 6gs. There would need to be a lot of radomness to how he models high gs.
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the P-38L had hydraulically boosted ailerons that tripled its roll rate above 250 mph as compared to the J model.
Is that modelled correctly in AH?
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I beleive it is, a P-38J-15 would roll slower than a "late" P-38J-25 or a P-38L-5.
...Its a nice setup, maybe next time leave out the Spit IX or P-51B and add the P-38L just to give it a different flavor.
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:)
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Originally posted by Slash27
How about the D-25 with or instead of the D-11?
D-11's a better ride, IMO, Slash. It's faster and far more nimble than the other P47's.
Gainsie
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Originally posted by Slash27
the P-38L had hydraulically boosted ailerons that tripled its roll rate above 250 mph as compared to the J model.
Is that modelled correctly in AH?
Yes.
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Yes.
Thanks.
D-11's a better ride, IMO, Slash. It's faster and far more nimble than the other P47's.
Works for me:aok
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Enjoyed this one Jester. Just wish I could have worked in more time for it.
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Enjoyed this one Jester. Just wish I could have worked in more time for it.
I agree, work it in again soon. Nice set up:aok