Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jaxxo on April 21, 2004, 11:19:57 AM
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I've heard many explanations and inputs on this subject. The only opinion I trust is mine, and my own two eyes at this point. I have repeatedly engaged with fights against opponents in the A.M. hours, I can pick out a player from Japan or New Zealand, or anywhere from the other side of the world after the first pass. The moves they pull or impossible, or are they? First off I am not accusing ANYONE of cheating, that being said....WHATS THE DEAL WITH THE UNFAIR ADVANTAGE? Some form of network lag is the culprit I suspect. I try to not even engage puni squad anymore, except to laugh at the unreal moves. " wow that niki reversed and caught me while I was doing 400+"..........Please tell me I'm not the only one who notices this?
P.S. .....and yes I know puni squad is good, but coupled with this phenomenon...
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sorry :(
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Your moves appear equally imposible from their point of veiw.
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ROFL!
Jaxxo please tell me this isn't a serious thread... Please
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Originally posted by jaxxo
I've heard many explanations and inputs on this subject. The only opinion I trust is mine, and my own two eyes at this point. I have repeatedly engaged with fights against opponents in the A.M. hours, I can pick out a player from Japan or New Zealand, or anywhere from the other side of the world after the first pass. The moves they pull or impossible, or are they? First off I am not accusing ANYONE of cheating, that being said....WHATS THE DEAL WITH THE UNFAIR ADVANTAGE? Some form of network lag is the culprit I suspect. I try to not even engage puni squad anymore, except to laugh at the unreal moves. " wow that niki reversed and caught me while I was doing 400+"..........Please tell me I'm not the only one who notices this?
P.S. .....and yes I know puni squad is good, but coupled with this phenomenon...
I don't fight the japs either, jaxxo. I happened to long on early last Saturday morning and caught a few still on.
No you are not the only one who sees this, they warp immeasurably. It's for real and it makes it really hard to fight them.
I notice it the worst with the japs, but that could be because they are the easiest to recognize.
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Originally posted by zmeg
Your moves appear equally imposible from their point of veiw.
Nice assumption, but probably incorrect.
Haven't you ever noticed someone warping in the MA who is totally unaware of it?
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Last night the lag was crazy bad.
Toad and I were fighting a few low bad guys when suddenly both our screens were filled with red icon planes doing all kinds of crazy stuff.
Worst I've ever seen.
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This is a totally serious post. Im not talking about warping though. The players I run into are not warping, they just do im possible moves. Numerous times Ive bet my squaddies that a player was from the eastern hemisphere after getting killed by a ridiculous move, to have my suspicion confirmed on channel one after asking the guy.
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http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/netlag.htm
Go read the page at the above link.
It was written for warbirds but it is just as true for AH.
UNTIL you read & understand net lag as pertains to flight sims your going to be frustrated.
Trust me this is NOT an advantage. As the lagging person will often get shot down without ever seeing who did it or how.
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Last nite was an adventure! Lag makes for comedy thats for sure. As far as I know it was everybody too. If you film a lag episode, would it still lag on film or would it play out as it really happened less lag?
Must be a new virus clogging up the cloud again.
I'll be happy when I can open up my email and not get 20 bogus messages or delivery failed notices from email I never sent. The amount of resources this takes up must be enormous.
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Thats an interesting article.
To smooth out gameplay on my FE, the game guesses where I am at between updates and adjusts accordingly.
So if I am fighting a laggy opponent and he executes a quick movement outside of what my FE is "guessing" on the next update I might lose him visuallyy on my FE. The worst thing I could do would be to maintain a steady course trying to re-find him visually because thats closer to what his FE is "guessing", the best idea would be to immediately execute an unexpected turn or manouver so that both of our FE's would be guessing inaccurately? That completely explains why I will be closing for a six shot, the nme has unexpectedly manouvered and disappears at the next update on my FE, I level out looking for him, and he appears on my 6 and kills me. While he was looping or turning, I was flying a predictable (to his FE) straight line.
I get it why everybody suffers the same under lag as it is FE to FE. The only way any FE would see something different is if for some reason one FE was sending updates at a different rate than they were receiving updates which shouldn't happen because the signals are all traveling the same route on the internet.
Well, thats a lot for a guy like me to understand, as my computer knowledge extends to spreadsheets and AH, but your explanation helped me understand it a lot more. I'm still not fighting the japs though.
Thanks Ghost!
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First Np, glad to have been of service.
Second, IMO thats must reading for anyone who flys online. Amazing how many havn't read it.
Third. I don't fight the Japanese guys either, most of them are VERY VERY GOOD.
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Just use a Spitfire MkV :) I like that matchup fighting the Japenesse plane types.
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Originally posted by kj714
Thats an interesting article.
I get it why everybody suffers the same under lag as it is FE to FE. The only way any FE would see something different is if for some reason one FE was sending updates at a different rate than they were receiving updates which shouldn't happen because the signals are all traveling the same route on the internet.
Thanks Ghost!
No they don't. Nor do they take the same time to get to the HT server. This is the reason all this is happening. The two FEs are sending messages at the same rate, but those messages don;t make it to the HT server at the same time. Nothing wrong with the HT server. Its just the dif routes the messages are taking and the dif connection speeds of two FEs. Now, throw another 20 FEs in to the mix and you experience what we have been seing all week in the MA.
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Well, see that just proves I'm no computer guy.:)
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Originally posted by kj714
I don't fight the japs either, jaxxo. I happened to long on early last Saturday morning and caught a few still on.
No you are not the only one who sees this, they warp immeasurably. It's for real and it makes it really hard to fight them.
I notice it the worst with the japs, but that could be because they are the easiest to recognize.
sorry to dissappoint you Jaxxo and KJ714 and but you are jumping at shadows.
the ones you are getting killed by are very good, particularly if you come up against them in a niki.. I fly against them most nights.
It's doesn't have anything to do with their connection (in 99% of cases anyway, every location has the odd warpy guy).
To label/disparage all Japanese players in this way is unfair and inappropriate.
Redd
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Originally posted by Redd
sorry to dissappoint you Jaxxo and KJ714 and but you are jumping at shadows.
the ones you are getting killed by are very good, particularly if you come up against them in a niki.. I fly against them most nights.
It's doesn't have anything to do with their connection (in 99% of cases anyway, every location has the odd warpy guy).
To label/disparage all Japanese players in this way is unfair and inappropriate.
Redd
Sorry, Redd, but I know what I've seen. I'm not trying to disparage anyone nor am I denying their skills. I'm just saying they always appear very warpy to me on my FE. Not their fault, it's the internet.
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Originally posted by kj714
Sorry, Redd, but I know what I've seen. I'm not trying to disparage anyone nor am I denying their skills. I'm just saying they always appear very warpy to me on my FE. Not their fault, it's the internet.
you are right - you were talking about warps , sorry. there are players at times who are warpy - likely sign of a bad connect.
Jaxxo is saying that lag is giving those players (japanese) an advantage over everyone else which is total bs
if he filmed these encounters he'd probably find that a well timed lead turn , by a plane travelling faster than he thought it was , is most likely the answer to his lag advantage theory.
Redd
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Well, Redd, Jaxxo and I play US prime time all the time.
I'm sure he knows a well timed lead turn when he sees it.
What Jaxx and I are talking about is when a nme con pirouettes on your screen and "poof" disappears. We know warps when we see it.
Not even ack ack can do a lead turn like that.
It has happened to me several times trying to play ppl from jp.
It does make it very difficult to fight them, but I usually don't engage any opponent whom I know to be very warpy. If you don't experience this, then congratulations. Believe me, I like to fight everybody so I wish I could engage them.
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I don't play in US prime time, but I meet these Puni guys quite often. I have never seen them done any impossible moves, and I haven't seen anybody provide any film to prove otherwise yet. All I have seen is these kind of BBS threads and some ranting in channels- but no films.
IMO these guys are good, work as a team, and have the experience to use Spits and N1K's to their fullest ( yancya13 has some 20,000 kills in N1K and in my hard experience is specialist in vertical lead turn and good shot - you don't want to get caught in front of his guns within 700 yards ).
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(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/ahss38.jpg)
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Originally posted by kj714
Must be a new virus clogging up the cloud again.
I'll be happy when I can open up my email and not get 20 bogus messages or delivery failed notices from email I never sent. The amount of resources this takes up must be enormous.
If you keep getting failed delivery notices from email you never sent you almost undoubtedly have some kind of worm or trojan and should update your antivirus and run a full system scan
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I can confirm that japanese players are very good and skilled pilots; its not fair to point at them all if you noticed someone of them warping.
More, some Japanese fighters (N1K2) have a flight model , in AH, that allows them to do fine maneuvers, and if you put them in skilled hands they can do wonderful things. Its a problem of the FM , not of people who fly that plane.
And BTW, .....I'm sure our japanese friends will greatly appreciate if you refer to them , more correctly, as Japanese and not..... Japs.
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You should not have too much trouble with lag if its not really bad..
lost packets is worse.
Much of the patent conflict WB/AH come from the fact that inserted in the packet is timestamped, and normal ( my guess less than 350ms) lag should not affect gameplay too much.
IEN claim it has the patent and AH claim different.
Only the gamecoders do know what impact it really has for their game depending on the implementation.
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heh puni squad, armored plated nikis yeah i see that alltime, plus niki never loses e too, bunch of bs, keepn my mouth shut b/c i couldnt believe the moves they make oh well, ChainguN:D :)
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I will believe what my eyes tell me. I dont have a problem fighting anyone in the game, alls Im saying is when I dogfight players from the Eastern hemisphere, not just Japan, I encounter seemingly odd FE characteristics. Puni squad has nothing to do with it. Its a geographical thing.
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Ok just to add to this issue, I currently run my connection on 2-way satellite. High throughput, but also High latency. Normally when I connect to AH, my ping times are in the neighborhood of 700-1200ms. If you play on cable you are probably in the 20-40ms range. Let me tell you that this is not a fun way to play really. I end up counting my hit sprites on planes, because 2 or 3 seconds after you see the sprites, the damage will be inflicted on the plane. So if you don't quit shooting you will burn all of your ammo when you could've gotten the kill with much less.
I've only been told I was laggy once, and that was when the net was in a sad state due to lovegate or some other silly virus. The last few times I've logged on however, the server has been terrible. EVERYONE was lagging and jumping around the screen. One of the problems of playing a game over the network is you have to put up with network lag. Such is life I guess. As far as the maneuvers, I don't know what to say... I saw YancYan13 or however you spell his handle, pull that N1k reverse on me and catch me as I was extending at over 400... I have to admit its one helluva move. Not sure what to attribute it to, but that N1k is a great plane to fly, and very deadly.. with 900 cannon rounds should be a perked ride. :aok
Anyways, have a good day all, and hope to see you up soon.
--Howitzer
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Originally posted by kj714
I'll be happy when I can open up my email and not get 20 bogus messages or delivery failed notices from email I never sent. The amount of resources this takes up must be enormous.
Beware, your computer has a virus. (at least one) Flor a start, go to:
http://housecall.trendmicro.com/housecall/start_corp.asp
for a free online virus scan.
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No, my computer does not have a virus. That's a result of the Mydoom or Blaster worm thats currently screwing evrything up.
The reason I get the returns is that someone else with my email addy in their book has the virus. The worm is sending out emails from their book using my addy.
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It's the internet, there are warps everywhere, and the Japanese players cant do "impossible" things, and i have fought against every one of them in the MA. So quit worrying, nobody is doing anything on purpose, at least from what ive seen..
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Originally posted by jaxxo
I will believe what my eyes tell me. I dont have a problem fighting anyone in the game, alls Im saying is when I dogfight players from the Eastern hemisphere, not just Japan, I encounter seemingly odd FE characteristics. Puni squad has nothing to do with it. Its a geographical thing.
That's what I'm saying. Thanks Beet1e for the screen shot. That's minor compared to what I usually get in this situation.
If thats normal, thats quite a manuever. I must've missed that one on Netaces.
Once again, I'm not disparaging the players, I'm saying that the JAPANESE squads are tough for me to fight because of the lag. Many people attest to them being great pilots, I'm sure that is true.
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Originally posted by WldThing
It's the internet, there are warps everywhere, and the Japanese players cant do "impossible" things, and i have fought against every one of them in the MA. So quit worrying, nobody is doing anything on purpose, at least from what ive seen..
I fully agree.
WT - this next part is aimed at everybody, not just you, giving you that heads up cause I quoted you to start!
I don't think anyone said anyone else is doing something on purpose. Don't turn this into a cheating thread.
HT - if this goes down that path, I apologize in advance. It's not the intention.
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Well i wasnt pertaining to anyone, because nobody had used the cheat word... I was merely informing people that there isnt "an impossible move", and thats to quote jaxxo:
The players I run into are not warping, they just do im possible moves.
Just my mere informative statement.
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Hmm, well I see that. I don't know how Jaxxo differentiates warping from net lag. To me, warping is the visual consequence of net lag.
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Thank you howitzer for understanding what Im trying to say. Mnay people like to jump all over a post and try and insinuate things while appearing high and mighty. I just wanted to know if anyone else experienced these same things. My interpretation of warp is a plane jumping around or zooming a few k from where u last saw them. The stuff I see is alot less noticeable visually.
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Originally posted by kj714
Hmm, well I see that. I don't know how Jaxxo differentiates warping from net lag. To me, warping is the visual consequence of net lag.
KJ
warping and lag are 2 different things.
Lag is caused by high ping times usually greater than 500 ms.
Warping is caused by missing packets .
A player can have a low ping time with missing packets - or a high ping time with 0% packet loss.
Through this thread you have been talking about warping (packet loss) , Jaxxo has been talking about Lag (high ping times).
Obviously a really bad connection might have both problems.
The guy who is playing from satellite will always have a terrible lag problem , due to this very high ping times. He could be anywhere btw - not just in Japan or on the other side of the world.
The Japanese/Australian/New Zealand/Euro players will have a way better connection than anyone in the US using satellite
My connection from Australia is usually around 300ms ping time with 0% packet loss. There is no noticable lag or warping with this connection.
I would expect the bulk of Japanese players to have a connection as good or better than mine.
Hope that clears up some confusion for you
Redd
P.S> the servers can also cause lag - they were really bad for a day a couple of weeks ago when everyone was really laggy.
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Sorry, but connections from Japan are rock solid.
The infrastructure is better than anywhere else on the planet and it takes less latency to cross the Pacific than it does after reaching the continental U.S. Everyone in Japan is on Adsl (24-30Mbps is standard now) or 100Mbps fiber.
Japanese players will have about 200ms or less to the MA server and any packet losses (same as any other player from any location) are from problem routers inside the U.S. The problems lately are a result of lousy U.S. net infrastructure and not from being Japanese... :)
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All I know is jp planes dance all over my screen on a regular basis. I can't fight against them because of it. That's the bottom line for me, all the techno talk in the world can't change it.
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Originally posted by kj714
All I know is jp planes dance all over my screen on a regular basis. I can't fight against them because of it. That's the bottom line for me, all the techno talk in the world can't change it.
ok well you must be right if it's all that you know.
I'll say it again - I fly against Japanese players every night of the week, they don't warp or lag to any noticable extent over other groups.
Redd
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Originally posted by Redd
ok well you must be right if it's all that you know.
I'll say it again - I fly against Japanese players every night of the week, they don't warp or lag to any noticable extent over other groups.
Redd
Yes, Redd, sitting in front of my FE, in my house, that is the situation. I would say that I'm right about it. What happens at your place, well, I'll take your word for it.
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great post 9/10. He can tell Euro players by their moves. Love it.
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Wrong, read it again.
I recognize players from jp by their warpiness on my FE.
You know what, Jaxxo asked a simple question, I responded, someone posted a good link. That was about the end of the value in here.
Yes, I'm sure jp has great internet connectivity, I'm sure the jp players have great skills. Whatever causes them to jump around on my screen and most other people don't, I don't know. Anyway this is getting old, see you in the MA.
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I got kinda sick of this attitude. I have seen very few warpy players, and I've been complained about once. The one time was definitely my fault, as I'd left my other PC on and it was auto downloading some MS updates.
My ping was normally 230-240ms.
Terribly sorry for living somewhere other than CONUS.
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I agree KJ. Try and get some feedback and dummies come on crying racism and standing on their soapbox. Who said anything about European players sunking? Adressing gameplay issues is having and "attitude"? LOL.
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Yeah, I know. Nowhere in here anywhere, did you or I say anything like "You guys suck and are ruining it for everybody", but we get semi-flamed and berated as if that's what we did.
So yeah they warp on my screen and on yours too. Of course we must be crazy or stupid or maybe we are mounting a stealth disinformation campaign against players from these regions in a plot to eventually take over the entire world, because obviously, it's not really happening.
bunch of friggin' donuts.
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Can you read KJ ?? - jaxxo is not talking about warping - has never talked about warping.
He is talking about something completely different.
He is saying that internet lag is giving them an advantage by allowing them to pull off seemingly impossible moves.
please read what has been written about the difference between lag and warping (missing packets)
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You learn to read Redd, the article posted by Ghost says net lag affects both gun hits AND POSITIONAL DATA. Not just lost packets, professor.
At any rate, I'm outta here, tired of debating the issue.
"So how does net lag fit into all this? All this message exchange and processing takes time. In order for a gun hit to register on the target's computer, the hit message has to be sent to the Host (anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th of a second), processed by the Host (anywhere from 1/4th to 1/2 a second, depending on how busy it is), then sent to the target's FE (anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th of a second). Thus a hit can take up to 1-2 seconds to register, assuming no other (net) delays in communication. Damage to the target gets bounced back to the shooter from the host (not from the other guy's FE), so that the shooter's FE can shows parts falling off and other effects. Positional Data is done the same way, each FE sends positional data for it's plane approximately two times a second to the host. This information is processed, collated, and sent to all the appropriate FEs. This can take a second or two. Here is where the delay occurs. It is vital to remember that any other plane you see in the air is actually their position 1-2 seconds ago on their FE, not their position on their FE at that instant. Thus their actual position could be 1-2 seconds "further along" in reality, on their FE. In addition, your position on their FE is 1-2 seconds old, thus is 1-2 seconds "further behind" in reality."
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Originally posted by kj714
You learn to read Redd, the article posted by Ghost says net lag affects both gun hits AND POSITIONAL DATA. Not just lost packets, professor.
At any rate, I'm outta here, tired of debating the issue.
"So how does net lag fit into all this? All this message exchange and processing takes time. In order for a gun hit to register on the target's computer, the hit message has to be sent to the Host (anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th of a second), processed by the Host (anywhere from 1/4th to 1/2 a second, depending on how busy it is), then sent to the target's FE (anywhere from 1/8th to 1/4th of a second). Thus a hit can take up to 1-2 seconds to register, assuming no other (net) delays in communication. Damage to the target gets bounced back to the shooter from the host (not from the other guy's FE), so that the shooter's FE can shows parts falling off and other effects. Positional Data is done the same way, each FE sends positional data for it's plane approximately two times a second to the host. This information is processed, collated, and sent to all the appropriate FEs. This can take a second or two. Here is where the delay occurs. It is vital to remember that any other plane you see in the air is actually their position 1-2 seconds ago on their FE, not their position on their FE at that instant. Thus their actual position could be 1-2 seconds "further along" in reality, on their FE. In addition, your position on their FE is 1-2 seconds old, thus is 1-2 seconds "further behind" in reality."
the paragraph you have inserted describes lag and how it works, NOT the warpy behaviour you have been talking about throughout this thread, which is typically caused by missing packets of information.
The FE seems to be able to handle a certain amount of lag by smoothing the plane position for you - as long as it keeps getting packets of data - it's when the packets go missing that it gets really screwed up and the planes starts jumping all over the screen.
The impact of lag you will normally feel rather than see - getting hits way after you pass the plane , guys blowing up 2-3 seconds after you shoot them.
it's not 100% science , it's the intenet after all , crap happens
Maybe Skuzzy or someone can explain it better than I have been able to. hell I didn't write the code and I'm not a techo, it's just my undertanding from my experience in the game.
Anyway this has gone on way too long - we will agree to disagree :)
Redd
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lag = latency = time for data to make the trip, i.e. "things in trhe rearview mirror are closer than they appear"
warp = variance = data that got lost along the way, one sees a positional update with better data "jump" the plane elsewhere.
you can have one without the other. varous things on one's front end (your pc), the routing (path between HTC from you and back to you) and HTC's servers can affect what one "sees" on their end.
i'm not gonna go into it here, do what i did way back when and read up on the issue.