Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: dedalos on April 26, 2004, 08:59:36 AM
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k, splain this. I in p38 going fast. Spit IV I think also going fast at 12 o'clock. I puss the nose down to gain a little more speed, spt daes the same but has a little bit of alt. Tracers go by (to me thet means the spit is not turning yet). After the merge, I pull up and go into a 2k/m clime. Look back and the spit has reversed at D600 and firing, but falling back. Since the spit is falling behind a make my clime a little stiper trying to loop over and fall on him. As I reach the top of the loop, the spit is at D1.1 trying to clime. Drop flaps, rewady to flip over, I look back and the spit is at D600 shreading my plane with 20s.
The question is, what did I do wrong? I thought a fast 38 can out perform a slow spit. It had to be slower after the reverse, no?
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Did you film? This may have been a lag/connex issue on one of your ends in that the spit was always d600 behind you, but at a specific time you checked, lag made it appear further behind and when you looked away to complete your manuever, the server updated the spit back to d600.
This is about the only way i could see this happening based on how you described it.
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Originally posted by Shane
Did you film? This may have been a lag/connex issue on one of your ends in that the spit was always d600 behind you, but at a specific time you checked, lag made it appear further behind and when you looked away to complete your manuever, the server updated the spit back to d600.
This is about the only way i could see this happening based on how you described it.
The description is not very good. I don;t think it is lag cause we were both climing for a while, after the spit pulled the 180 with no apparent los of speed. I think he was able to close in on me. Add to that that I have never been able to dog fight in a 38, I think I did something wrong. Maybe I should have gone straight up, istead of the slow clime?
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Questions ..
Was he pulling lead turn on you ?
If so, did you zoom up and into his lead turn ?
If the above 2 are yes, and he had more E in his pocket, he will catch you and rip you to shreds.
When merging with a Spit, you want to look behind you right away and see what he did and adjust accordingly.
If I think that a Spit has more E than me on the merge, I will always go opposite of his move ... if he goes up, then I go nose down ... if he goes left ... I go right ... etc.
If I have more E than the Spit (in most co-alt or close-alt situations, if I am over 425 mph I usually have more E), then I will zoom on him and only hope that he tries to follow.
I don't know how you fly, but if you are using Combat Trim on the P-38, I would strongly suggest that you don't.
Manually trimming the P-38 really allows you to take advantage of all the speed and E that that plane has to offer. Some are successful using Combat Trim ... I am not one of them.
I have elevator trim and flaps mapped to a 4-way on my HOTAS stick, and I am currently obtaining quite the calous on my thumb, because I am constantly trimming the P-38 when in battle.
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Sounds like you were in a shallow climb, with the spit falling to D1.1, but you underestimated the Spit's energy and pulled too early and too fast into a loop, at the top of which you were caught by the Spit, who was hanging on his prop.
Should have went level and extended a little further before reversing, or, if you had sufficient energy when you started that loop, should have trimmed level elevator and held vertical as long as you could or until you watched the spit begin to nose over.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Questions ..
Was he pulling lead turn on you ?
If so, did you zoom up and into his lead turn ?
If the above 2 are yes, and he had more E in his pocket, he will catch you and rip you to shreds.
When merging with a Spit, you want to look behind you right away and see what he did and adjust accordingly.
If I think that a Spit has more E than me on the merge, I will always go opposite of his move ... if he goes up, then I go nose down ... if he goes left ... I go right ... etc.
If I have more E than the Spit (in most co-alt or close-alt situations, if I am over 425 mph I usually have more E), then I will zoom on him and only hope that he tries to follow.
I don't know how you fly, but if you are using Combat Trim on the P-38, I would strongly suggest that you don't.
Manually trimming the P-38 really allows you to take advantage of all the speed and E that that plane has to offer. Some are successful using Combat Trim ... I am not one of them.
I have elevator trim and flaps mapped to a 4-way on my HOTAS stick, and I am currently obtaining quite the calous on my thumb, because I am constantly trimming the P-38 when in battle.
Hey Slap :aok . I saw tracers going over my head so I assumed he was going head on. When I saw him behind me and gaining on him, I started a 2 or 3K/m clime. He did not start gaining on me until I was at the top of the loop. And he gained really fast. In any case. I will keep trying. 38s hate me though.
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well, what i focused on was the d600 then fall back to 1.1k then close to d600 again situation.
however, taking a look again at the way you further described it, it's easy enough to do what the spit did. i do it all the time in the DA.
as you merged, the spit made his lead turn (probably fired a burst early out) early, hence you seeing him 600 back as you passed. your initial speed allowed you to go into that shallow climb and increase to 1.1k.
the spit is no slouch in either acceleration or climb. as you went into the steeper climb to do your wingover, the spit was able to cut into your arc and gain to that d600 again.
in all probability, the spit would have been approaching his own stalling point (which is why he probably sprayed at d600) and if you had held your vertical a little longer, you might have been able to drop back down on his flopping spit for the kill.
this is what happens to me in the DA when the guy blows thru the merge, instead of a hard g lead turn, i ease off it a bit and go into a high yo-yo. when i make my 180, i'm diving back down to gain the speed back that i lost, and as teh guy goes into the zoom, i stay level a bit closing then cut up into his turn radius.
i'll often be near stalling when the guy noses back down. this is where my experience kicks in. i'll very often avoid his shot as he drops back down (as he'll be slow and wobbly himself, making it even harder to get guns on me) and when he passes me, i roll back down onto his 6 and if he tries anything other than continuing a diveout, i'll more than likely cut into his turn again and pop him.
if you want we can go to the DA and i'll show you exactly how it's done and what you can do on your part.
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Originally posted by Shane
well, what i focused on was the d600 then fall back to 1.1k then close to d600 again situation.
however, taking a look again at the way you further described it, it's easy enough to do what the spit did. i do it all the time in the DA.
as you merged, the spit made his lead turn (probably fired a burst early out) early, hence you seeing him 600 back as you passed. your initial speed allowed you to go into that shallow climb and increase to 1.1k.
the spit is no slouch in either acceleration or climb. as you went into the steeper climb to do your wingover, the spit was able to cut into your arc and gain to that d600 again.
in all probability, the spit would have been approaching his own stalling point (which is why he probably sprayed at d600) and if you had held your vertical a little longer, you might have been able to drop back down on his flopping spit for the kill.
this is what happens to me in the DA when the guy blows thru the merge, instead of a hard g lead turn, i ease off it a bit and go into a high yo-yo. when i make my 180, i'm diving back down to gain the speed back that i lost, and as teh guy goes into the zoom, i stay level a bit closing then cut up into his turn radius.
i'll often be near stalling when the guy noses back down. this is where my experience kicks in. i'll very often avoid his shot as he drops back down (as he'll be slow and wobbly himself, making it even harder to get guns on me) and when he passes me, i roll back down onto his 6 and if he tries anything other than continuing a diveout, i'll more than likely cut into his turn again and pop him.
if you want we can go to the DA and i'll show you exactly how it's done and what you can do on your part.
I will look you up. I had more success dogfighting B26s than P38s, lol.
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if you don't see me in the MA, try the CT.
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dedalos ... make sure you have film rolling. I have seen Shane at work. He is a great teacher and the film will be invaluable.
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Next time let the stall bring your nose down from the vertical climb instead of doing a loop over the top. You extend the vertical climb this way with the usual result of the Spitfire's belly showing to you as your nose comes down for a perfect shot.
ack-ack
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Situation like that, I just kick the rudders at around 120 mph as I enter into the stall zone. This will swing the p-38 around at just under stall speed to zero mph and put you offset to the attacker when he is pass stall speed. Your now pointing down and hes pointed up and you can begin to maneuver as you increase speed downwards.
Around 120-100 something like that. You must be pointing near straight up and at least past 60 % angle to horizon.
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You did nothing wrong dedalos. It's the 600yard shots that connect that are wrong.
Or rather, if you've failed to take into account what happens typically in AH then that's a mistake I'd say.
The further the range of criticial gunnery, the larger the margin of E that should be saved, and the easier it is for the slower planes to just go gung-ho and start spraying.
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Thank you guys. Here is more evidence that P38s have something against me. (Not a whine, just a funny story).
I was in a LA7 the other day and arived at a field where our GVs where getting hit by niks, ju87s, 110, etc. As soon as get there I get the stuka and the nik in one pass. (I don;t think they knew I was there). The 110 tried to get away but did not get far. So, now I have 3 kills in 30 secs and I start to think to my self what a great pilot I am (lol). Then here it comes, a 38 takes off. Low and slow and away from the base ack. I have about 5k on him and I am fast already, so I go in. Fly over him as if I was going to dive to see if he puls up. He does not so I pull up and go over the top (Now I have 7 or 8k on him) and dive straight down. He pulls straight up and I know the HO is comming so I breack left. Two dings and my tail is off. Look back he is d800. lol
There is something about that plane that gets me killed when in it or close to it. I think I am afraid of them now, lol
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The P38 in the hands of a good stick is a dreadful thing to have to face.
I suppose that could be said for any plane.
The only advantage of fighting against a P38 is that it is a very large target.
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Originally posted by AKFokerFoder+
The P38 in the hands of a good stick is a dreadful thing to have to face.
I suppose that could be said for any plane.
The only advantage of fighting against a P38 is that it is a very large target.
Well, just for once, I would like to find a newbee in a 38 (just so I can empty all my amo into that thing ). WHy do I always engage the good ones? lol
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Because the P-38L for most noobs, is not a fighter, but a flying Katyusha rocket-pad. The moment you see them is usually the moment they are about to strike the ground and die.
The rest of the P-38Ls in the air, which actually stick around and fight, are almost usually the dedicated P-38 jocks.
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"Fly over him as if I was going to dive to see if he puls up. He does not so I pull up and go over the top (Now I have 7 or 8k on him) and dive straight down. He pulls straight up and I know the HO is comming so I breack left. Two dings and my tail is off. Look back he is d800. lol"
I don't believe that P-38 vs P-38 was the problem here. That scenario could be any plane.
I believe that the mistake you made was to pull off your initial attack. You had him low and slow and you had superior alt and speed.
On the inital dive, I would have pushed the attack and forced him to do something and gone for a nice deflection shot. If you missed the shot, he was forced to turn or go up with minimal speed/E which would have burned more speed/E.
Seeing that you were fast, after the miss, then zoom up, while watching how he egresses, and then push the attack again basically in the same manner.
His pull up, and shot to your tail would be something that I would write off to luck on his part and not get discouraged.
Keep pluggin at it ...
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Originally posted by SlapShot
"Fly over him as if I was going to dive to see if he puls up. He does not so I pull up and go over the top (Now I have 7 or 8k on him) and dive straight down. He pulls straight up and I know the HO is comming so I breack left. Two dings and my tail is off. Look back he is d800. lol"
I don't believe that P-38 vs P-38 was the problem here. That scenario could be any plane.
I believe that the mistake you made was to pull off your initial attack. You had him low and slow and you had superior alt and speed.
On the inital dive, I would have pushed the attack and forced him to do something and gone for a nice deflection shot. If you missed the shot, he was forced to turn or go up with minimal speed/E which would have burned more speed/E.
Seeing that you were fast, after the miss, then zoom up, while watching how he egresses, and then push the attack again basically in the same manner.
His pull up, and shot to your tail would be something that I would write off to luck on his part and not get discouraged.
Keep pluggin at it ...
I was a lala not a 38. If I was in a 38 I would have been killed by the stuka, lol
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"I was in a LA7 the other day ..." how did I miss that ... :confused:
Anyway, like I said .... "That scenario could be any plane. "
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Dedalos, if you really want to learn the P-38, do a search of the AH message boards and look at the P-38 films I've posted. The only downside to the films is that you don't see the flaps move in the flap indicator but you'll be able to hear them and still get an idea when to use them.
Remember to be aggressive in the P-38 and nothing fights in the vertical like the twin engine beauty does. Once you get used to flying it, out turning Spits and N1K2s will become 2nd nature and soon when the enemy sees your P-38, they'll usually end up running. It's a curse we dedicated P-38 must endure but it is amusing seeing planes with the advantage run from a lone P-38
ack-ack
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sounds to me like you should have sone a slow spiral slimb seeing as he was falling back. That would make the spit want to try and follow you around so to speak in your climb. This would pull his nose even further up and over and before long you are on top of him looking down at either his belly or his canopy and he's stalled out.
You can with full flaps and the right angle of attack, literally hoover above a con until he has stalled out or lost so much engery trying to climb to you that he has to lvl out. At that point when he lvls out is when you should drop right down release the flaps and have at him.
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PS: AKAK one of these days we are going to have to wing up man :)
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the lesson is clear son: HO the spit. :D ;)