Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Killjoy2 on April 26, 2004, 05:48:05 PM
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The problem:
The "old" Aces High had a community of players who love WWII planes and everything about them. The "new" Aces High seems to lack this component. Generally speaking, the new player is a product of the X-box rather than the history book. I know I studied WWII planes and battles like a fiend just to fit in when I started in WBs. We sometimes met up at air shows too. It's still the glue that holds the Flying Zoo together. (there are also rivets, screws and gray tape holding us together)
The suggestion:
Do more to promote the historical aspect of the planes, matchups and battles for the new players. (The old players will eat it up too) I know we have Special Events, but for some reason they are not well attended. I think the reason is lack of appreciation for the historical aspect of the game.
1) I love OzKansas for the historical islands. I wish we had links to tell us about the history of the battles fought on the individual islands.
2) Maybe spotlight a historical matchup between 2 islands in OzKansas? Be sure to educate about the relative strenth and weakness of the planes. The opportunites to grow Special Events can be created in the Main. Kind of a "Special Event Light" TM.
3) Create a spec sheet for the map pull down with fighting hints and links for a couple of spotlighted planes. Say a Zero and an Wildcat. "Collect the whole set!"
4) Create a Historical battle center like tank town but you can't destroy the base. It wouldn't count in a reset. We have furball island, why not historical furball island? Or Scenario Furball island?
5) I miss the medals. Maybe medals for success on Historical Furball Island. Put a little medal icon next to the name (or squad) on the roster. Anybody remember the Order of the Barney or Kermit medals? I can see the "Order of the Ram" and "Knights of the Fleece" but I digress.
If you want to see more variety in the planes flown we will have to do some teaching and make it fun to learn. With HTC help maybe we can create the old community. The answer is in the Main Arena. Thats where the players are and thats where we have to make it work.
Any ideas?
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Or you could just give a written test to get into AH...
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You've got some neat ideas there, killjoy. Medals I think are coming in TOD.
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Test is a good idea.
1) Whats the air speed velocity of a sparrow?
Oh wait... this could just get silly.
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Do you mean a fully laden swallow?
Indicated or true?
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Whatever do you mean?African or Europian?
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hmmm Fix Aces High...
Well I dont know as if it can be "fixed" in ragards to what you talked about.
There will always be those who want to improve ACM, put up a good fight and give it their best shot win or lose...
I ask myself a lot lately... "why are these people or person playing the game?" These are those same people who I watch climb to 20K only to drop a single egg from a G10 into a fuel tank or Barracks.
A while back I met this dude named Nomak. He kicked my arse so bad in the DA I was tending to the bruises for weeks to come. Not to mention my bruised ego... I concider myself very lucky in that he offered to take me and start from scratch and teach me all about ACM. Weeks after weeks and I would say about 2 hours a night nearly every night he took his time to show me the ropes and not hold back an ounce of knowledge... I still and in debt to him for what he did and he knows how thankful I am for his time.
The moral of this small but important story is this. Many do not know the feeling of a good fight. I mean a flying by the seat of your pants in your home fights... The ones that when your done your palms are soaked with sweat and your heart rate is up... Dam what a rush fight... Win or lose... It seems that many lately arent interested in training other new comers such as Nomak took his time with me. I think many dont fight, or fly and suicide because that's all they know.
Maybe if the "vets" would hand down the knowledge and take some time to help for just even a few minutes here and there... The game would be much more enjoyable for everyone.
This really only covers one side of Aces High. There are many things to do and learn about in this game which is why after so long I still continue to play the game. Bombers, GVs, you name it...
Thats just my 2 cents... Take it for what its worth if anything at all.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Maybe if the "vets" would hand down the knowledge and take some time to help for just even a few minutes here and there... The game would be much more enjoyable for everyone.
Should mention that "SOME" vets do that already, provide countless information to the rookies that come to play the game, spend hours in the DA or the TA. Take away from ones play time to help out another. Answer questions via the BBS or in the game, i get countless Private Messages asking me where my Gun Convergences are, how long they should wait before firing, etc.....
Shouldnt leave out the folks that ALREADY do help, mentioning just the word "SOME" makes it somewhat rewarding.
And those that dont get mentioned such as THE WHOLE AH TRAINING CREW, Kweassa, TC, humble, Shane, RTR, Kanth, and of course Widewing.. Those are only a few of many that help whether its answering one question or countless questions. Over and over.
Dont forget those folks that DO help.
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Yup, throughout my AH time, GhostH has helped me countless times, VAQ has helped me. And of course Bigmax, and all the ASSASSINS.. I learned a WHOLE lot from Hblair and crew.
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Killjoy
i believe you quoted
"1) I love OzKansas for the historical islands. I wish we had links to tell us about the history of the battles fought on the individual islands. "
i'm from australia, and while i agree it would be a good idea, Ozkansas is about as geographically correct as a 2-year old's mudmap of the world. there's a lot more ocean in the pacific than is portrayed, as well as the fact that a large portion of the map appears to actually be the indian ocean.
my 2 bytes
in any case i like the overall concept anyhow :)
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Originally posted by PsyKhoo
Killjoy
i believe you quoted
"1) I love OzKansas for the historical islands. I wish we had links to tell us about the history of the battles fought on the individual islands. "
i'm from australia, and while i agree it would be a good idea, Ozkansas is about as geographically correct as a 2-year old's mudmap of the world. there's a lot more ocean in the pacific than is portrayed, as well as the fact that a large portion of the map appears to actually be the indian ocean.
my 2 bytes
in any case i like the overall concept anyhow :)
I guess you'll be the only one that wants to fly for 12 hours just to get shot down :D
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not exactly, but its a little hard to provide hisorical information about islands that dont exist is all. which raises a good point.
that generally a historically/geographically map probably wouldn't
go far due to the fact that in the MA there is a demand for quick unadultered killing as opposed to historical "12 hour boredom"
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Originally posted by PsyKhoo
Killjoy
i believe you quoted
"1) I love OzKansas for the historical islands. I wish we had links to tell us about the history of the battles fought on the individual islands. "
i'm from australia, and while i agree it would be a good idea, Ozkansas is about as geographically correct as a 2-year old's mudmap of the world. there's a lot more ocean in the pacific than is portrayed, as well as the fact that a large portion of the map appears to actually be the indian ocean.
my 2 bytes
in any case i like the overall concept anyhow :)
the islands and continents are historic but they are rearanged rescaled and repositioned to allow players to fly short distances to get to them.
i can easily build them to scale. and the level of awful gameplay in that scale arena would empty the main arena in 30 minutes and it would stay empty for the duration the map was up
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The quick easy solution to this "Jump in the game guns ablazing no time to get some training" problem was covered in Air Warrior very simply.It was called relaxed realism.Those that didnt want the full blown realism had an option.In AH they dont have that easy mode choice and therefore the only way to make what they concider a notable impact is the pork mode.I think an RR arena would go a long way twordes cleaning up some of the mess the MA has turned into.
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Fix? It isn't broken unless you count SOB's 3 legged sheep.
curly
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If you want historical accuracy go to CT!!!!
That is the place.
There allways will be players that just want to have a furball and do not care of rest.
Others that ready to fly for couple of ours at SEA for short fight of 2 -3min where they have good chances to be shot down and finish the event - but they go for it becuse it is more interesting to play historical role and fly together.
Unfortunatly most of players flying MA they are new pilots without good flight experience and they do not care of historical battles....
That what we have to live with it. When ToD will come it will be better for some pilots. But I still think that most of players will spend their time at MA.
For now you have CT for instant action and SEA for events.
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Originally posted by PsyKhoo
Ozkansas is about as geographically correct as a 2-year old's mudmap of the world. there's a lot more ocean in the pacific than is portrayed, as well as the fact that a large portion of the map appears to actually be the indian ocean.
Yea, but the UFOs, Wicked Witch Of The West and Toto are all scaled properly. :D
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I'm with curly, I'm not sure its busted.
Wildthing, estes, ty very much sirs. supprising how much an occiasional TY is appreciated.
Morpheus, agree completely, took me almost 5 months to start getting the basics. Same guy flew with me 4, 5 times a week for an hour or 2 at a time.
Thats why I'm a trainer.
I'm still paying off that debt. :)
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Originally posted by artik
If you want historical accuracy go to CT!!!!
That is the place.
I blow. I'm the first to admit it. I'm learning ACM but it's slow. BUT I do find the CT is the place for the history of the birds to come into play.
I had the joy of discovering that in the right context flying a ME 109 was a blast, especially if pitted against a P51 over the french coast. This couldn't have been done in the MA.
Maybe I'm a purist but I like it when the fighters match up historically none of the Spit-on-Spit stuff - the MA is fun but the CT is the place for context. And feels more authentic.
AH isn't broke I just think some of the players haven't realized that it's time to move on or take a break.
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The focus here is: How can HTC and veterans promote interest and respect for these great planes and battles.
The CT is full of historical matchups but empty of pilots. The CT is not where the solution is. However, if we foster interest in the planes and matchups we should get more in the CT. This is the point, use the Main to educate and excite the "New Wave" TM of players and all of the arenas will proper.
1) OzKansas is the best example of what I'm suggesting. It's built to be playable but still has historical parts. Lets promote the historical with plane matchups at certain fields. Use the map pulldown for historical info on just 2 islands and just 2 planes.
2) Morpheous' story reminded me of Deft. I loved WB's but when he took me on a fighter sweep to show me how its done, the game was never the same. Personal and squad mentoring is a great device. Perhaps individuals and squads could make a point of included a new person on a fighter sweep or attack mission to show how and why its done instead of just furballing.
HTC could step up to this problem and try the simple things that don't require new programing, just a few pulldowns for the map board and plane setups.
This discussion is for the most part helpful. for those who say the CT and Special Events are enough I have to point out that the low numbers. If we "fix" it we have to look to the Main.
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The focus here is: How can HTC and veterans promote interest and respect for these great planes and battles.
You just assume that this is a valid goal. Then you give ways to do this. But I'm not so sure that your focus should realy be one of HTC's goals.
HiTech
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I forgot a big salute
to the training crew. These guys are heros.
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I concider myself very lucky in that he offered to take me and start from scratch and teach me all about ACM. Weeks after weeks and I would say about 2 hours a night nearly every night he took his time to show me the ropes and not hold back an ounce of knowledge... I still and in debt to him for what he did and he knows how thankful I am for his time.
So you are a Jedi now?
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no hes a sith apprentice like darth maul
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Ah, so he flies Spits, right?
:p
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Originally posted by Killjoy2
HTC could step up to this problem and try the simple things that don't require new programing, just a few pulldowns for the map board and plane setups.
This discussion is for the most part helpful. for those who say the CT and Special Events are enough I have to point out that the low numbers. If we "fix" it we have to look to the Main.
Let's be truthful now, the blame isn't with HTC, it's with the players who will not support the events with there attendance, then turn right around and complain about the numbers. It's easy to complain on the sidelines.
If players are serious about flying missions with a more historical flavor, there are plenty of options, none perfect but still plenty of options.
Let's start with the events. By far the the most populated weekly event is Friday Squad Ops. While open to only registered squads, it continues to draw a crowd each friday night with numbers normally well above the 100 mark and often closer to 200. It's very simple to join, just find a registered squad.
On Saturday's the CAP team takes center stage with the weeks installment of CAP- The Great Campaign. While it's true that numbers have been disappointing lately, the fact remains, it is there for any and all pilots to fly. Many simply choose to ignore it, complain about low numbers and get pissed off because they foolishly loose their plane in the first 5 min of a spawn window. I guess it is hard to shed the "kill at all cost mentality". :rolleyes:
On Sunday we have Sunday Squad Ops, an event just like Friday Squad Ops. Again open to registered squads and based on a historical scenario.
On Wednesday nights we have Snapshots. A somewhat less formal event, (also based on a historical setup) that continues to enjoy a degree of success, mainly due in part to the dedicated players who show up week after week even if it is not their favorite plane or setup.
Aside from events we have the CT, which for some reason many think is a wasteland. CT enjoys a thriving community and you can find a fight there just about any weeknight during the US evening hours. Sure if you log in during off hours, it will be dead except for a few milkrunners. Numbers vary by time and setups, but I can assure you that you don't need the numbers of the MA to have a good time in the CT.
So there we have 4 weekly events that strive for some degree of historical relevance and accuracy plus the CT.
I spent several years in WB's also before AH. Like here in AH, I flew mainly events there. Overall I would say the events are pretty comparable.
The bottom line imho is that most players are looking for the quick kill, hence the MA's popularity, not saying there is anything wrong with that. Many don't want to take the time to fly an event with rules or where they are not guaranteed a furball or kill within 5 mins after takeoff.
I submit to you that AH is indeed not broken, it's many of the players that are broken. The events are there every week, without fail.
If increased numbers in historical type setups is what you want, it will take the help of players like yourself supporting the events and getting other players involved. HTC and the event CM's can only do so much.
The old saying "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink" comes to mind.
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if its not broken dont try fix it...what is broken is the community not the game.
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No slight to the Events and Historical Arena. They are first rate.
But they have problems attracting numbers. If you want to interest players in the historical you have to go into the Main and work there. Thats where people are.
We typically say "Most people just want a quick fight and a furball and thats what the Main is for."
It's true, unless we show something different. The quick fight and furball is like using sex and violence to get your attention in advertising. It works, but is isn't healthy, doesn't promote loyalty and in the long run doesn't sell product. I know that's harsh words for some of you perverts, but marketing for the long run uses a whole different set of values. Don't expect to see Ana Nicole as a spokesman for Walmart.
"Sex and Violence" (fast fight and furball) is/will get old in the Main. We should use quick gratification of the Main to foster a deeper appreciation of the planes, matchups and battles.
Or... we might consider going with the crowd and offering "special" mods to planes like a 50 cal cannon on a spit. Thats what they do in Quake.
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I think there are 2 types of people in this area. Those that look at this as a simulator and those that look at it as a game. I learned to fly from WW2 vets. I have been turned on by these aircraft since my dad took me to my first airshow as a wee lad. I like the historical perspective and the challange of staying alive (I die a lot!). For others its fast and kill. It's a game. Maybe not even a statregic one. I doubt you'll convert one to the other in either direction.
Peace
Pillur
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Originally posted by hitech
You just assume that this is a valid goal. Then you give ways to do this. But I'm not so sure that your focus should realy be one of HTC's goals.
HiTech
He shoots! He scores! The crowd goes wild. 2 points for the home team! :D
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Originally posted by hitech
You just assume that this is a valid goal. Then you give ways to do this. But I'm not so sure that your focus should realy be one of HTC's goals.
HiTech
I suspect that the goal here is to make money. And understandably so, to a point. If so then just call it a game and let it go at that. No historical perspective, no supermodeled aircraft. Just a bunch of folk kiling each other. I was under the illusion this was a simulator. And one that simulated WW2 combat in a fairly realistic arena. I have been wrong about many things in my life. I hope my idea of this being a simulator is not one of my illusions.
BTW- What would you as CEO/Head guy see as the goal?
Peace
Pillur
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LtPillur: The question becomes , what is trying to be simulated.
We do our best to try accuratly simulate the PERFORMANCE of aircraft ,vehicles, and amunition. In general game play we do not try simulate WWII.
as to this
I suspect that the goal here is to make money. And understandably so, to a point.
There realy isn't much we do with out keeping this in view, after all we are a buisness. In the end making money, is the same as providing fun and interest for the greatest number of people we can. So our goal is realy just to provide somthing that the most people enjoy.
When you say to a point, there realy isn't one. It seems like you are implying that we should keep the historical aspect in mind over providing enjoyment to people. Thats a good way to end everything, and have neither game or customers left.
The historical aspects are used because they provide enjoyment to a portion of our customer base. But historical events are not a goal by itself,nore is it a goal to have more people fly in a historical settings,historical settings are done only because they brings enjoyment to a portion of our players.
So choosing what is to be simulated , how much historical aspect to give, and balancing everything is by no meens a simple task. It encompass looking at a lot of issues,from maintaining community,atracting new customers,to continualy trying to make the game more detailed ,with out eliminating the fun aspect.
HiTech
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HiTech has a good point.
My Focus is to promote the historical aspects of the planes and battles within the Main Arena. This serves my needs perfectly because I will get to play a flight sim/game with like minded people. Otherwise I'd go to Quake.
I run a subscriber Internet media that shares some of the same aspects of AH in terms of subscriber community. I study the AH community for insight into my own business. I'll often get ideas from my subscribers that just don't fit with my goals. OTOH when an idea is good I go with it.
The funny thing about Internet communities is that we can get so involved with them. AH is like that for a lot of us. Our involvement goes way beyond a game. We build web sites to support the game, we do research, we promote our favorite causes all in hopes of finding others who share our passion or even better making a CONVERT.
Well you haven't heard the last of KILLJOY. No sir. I won't ever give up because ... Oh NOOooo it's happening to me too.
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Pillur,
the Combat Theater is where the ratio of Historians/AviationAfficianados to Dweebs is highest. I put the ratio in the CT as 5 Historians/AAs per 1 dweeb, whereas the MA, HTs bread and butter, I see a double digit reversal with the ratio being 19 dweebs per historian.
Take your pick and kudos to HTC for allowing the dorks..err, historians a place to coagulate.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Pillur,
Take your pick and kudos to HTC for allowing the dorks..err, historians a place to coagulate.
Thanks! I'm not a REAL historian. Now I have to figure out if I'm a dork too?? So much to do!
Peace
Pillur
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Originally posted by hitech
LtPillur
So choosing what is to be simulated , how much historical aspect to give, and balancing everything is by no meens a simple task. It encompass looking at a lot of issues,from maintaining community,atracting new customers,to continualy trying to make the game more detailed ,with out eliminating the fun aspect.
HiTech
I understand. For a business to grow it cannot rely on WW2 history buffs (or dorks, as we have been called!!!:( ). And it has to be difficult to balance the need to get new players into the game (which is your business) and keep it all "under control". On many fronts this is the finest simulator/game I've flown. I was wrong in asumming to understand what an individuals business plan is. It really is more a game than a simulator; and I can accept that. At least until i get $1.6 million US to buy my own P-51D
Peace
Pillur
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A big and Thank you to ya WldThing, we here in the AH community appreciate all the help and knowledge you give back!
I am in the same boat as Ghosth, I had the pleasure of someone taking me and showing me the different aspects of plane types and how to use them, Chick, Wrongway, Snowman, JG, Subby, Mute, Boozer, the list goes on, and a better way to help your favorite flight sim is to return the favor with new players. Thats why I do it, I want to share what others shared with me when I started.
and I SALUTE all the AH Trainers and others that offer their help which are probably on the same principles as mine.