Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: AKcurly on April 26, 2004, 06:51:31 PM
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When I was a kiddo, I learned to hate Fords. I couldn't force myself to buy a Ford until I was in my 40s.
My home state voted democrat prior to wide spread TV ads debilitating our ability to clearly think.
I was one of 2 registered republicans in a small town. I registered republican (probably) out of youthful indignation. In college, I was an active "Young Republican."
Hating Fords and democrats (for my part) was a learned response from my elders. It was much a reflex as "I need to breathe" or "I should eat." There was no thinking involved.
In the middle part of the century, democrats had the reputation of irresponsible public spending and the party most likely to get you involved in a war. Republicans had the reputation of fiscal responsibility (to the point that worthy public projects were ignored) and adverse to national policies that interrupted the "business as usual" theme. In other words, they avoided war because in the long run, a properly armed military was expensive to maintain, and in the short run, wars are damned expensive.
Because of the wide spread reporting of facts (and nonfacts), it is difficult to focus on what exactly the candidates are saying.
So, tell me. What defines the Republican party? What defines the Democratic party?
Can you list one or two items that you believe clearly characterizes either party?
There's no point in singling out Bush or Kerry. If someone says "well, Kerry threw his medals away," then someone else will say "well, Bush avoided military service during Vietnam to the extent that he was a "no-show" in Alabama. You can see what they're (Democrat and Republican party directors) are trying to do! They don't want us to focus on the issues -- they want to turn the election into a beauty pageant. Why? Is it a conspiracy? Nah, it's just proven to be effective in the past.
Name just a principle or two of the Republican or Democrat party. I dare you. :)
curly
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Umm Curly, I think you've lost it.
Now just come this way, put on this "Fun" jacket and you can bounce around in this room all you want!
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For both:
No real difference in parties; just in the candidates personally, SFAICT
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I think it can be summed up by saying that the Republicans are extremists, and the Democrats are moderates.
Bring it!
:cool:
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Well, Nash, if the Demos thought they could get away with it, they would be very extreme, but they know that will not fly, so they cloak the party in moderate rhetoric.
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As opposed to the Repubs who ram whatever it is through regardless of anything.
See?
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Umm Curly, I think you've lost it.
Now just come this way, put on this "Fun" jacket and you can bounce around in this room all you want!
Cool. ;) Name one for each party. Just one.
curly
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Originally posted by AKcurly
So, tell me. What defines the Republican party? What defines the Democratic party?
Abortion rights...
Pro-choice = Dem
Pro-life = Rep
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Democrats: High tax big-government socialists
Republicans: Deficit spending big-government socialists.
:)
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curly, one issue that's high on my list of priorties is labor issues. One thing that's happened in the Bush administration is that rulings against organized labor by Bush appointed boards are quite common and amendments on overtime rules strip workers of hard fought rules.
I know alot of the guys here feel things like OSHA regulations and minimum wage laws only impede the progress of business, and I respect that. However, the fabric of America is its middle class, and the Democrats do more to protect that fabric than the Republicans do.
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The general feeling I get is that the republicans are against gun control, abortion, liberal welfare state, overtaxation, intrusive government to name a few.
The democratic party seems to support gun control, abortion, a liberal welfare state, overtaxation, intrusive government....
Things have changed these last two years and the lines seperating the parties have become muddled thanks to 9/11, the patriot act, George Bush.
I am for freedom to lawfully own firearms unregulated and regulated full auto firearms, I am almost totally anti abortion but conceed ultimate right to the mother. I detest the concept of a welfare state but agree about temporary safety nets for women with children. I believe in never contributing more than 30% of gross income for all taxes combined. I am against intrusive government in time of peace but concede that intrusion is a vital but distasteful fact of war being waged by islam against freedom.
Just to name a few and hey, I reserve the right to change my mind on any subject at any time (Call me a Kerry-go-round, if you must) :aok
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lol nm :)
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Name just a principle or two of the Republican or Democrat party. I dare you. :)
curly
easy - the main thing they both want is POWER
Republicans - consist of conservative moderates, christian fundies/social conservatives/anti-choice, defense industry and large corporations, fiscal conservatives, neo-cons and some libertarians
they stand for keeping wages and worker benefits low to benefit the corporations
tax cuts that favor the rich over the poor and regressive tax policies in general
Defense spending and corporate welfare in particular
cutting social spending-
deregulation of industry
Right now neo-con PNAC guys are in favor at the White House - Rummy, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Kristoff - this group was founded in the 80's by those folks and Dan Quayle and Jeb Bush - their goal is to secure energy reserves so that the oil dependent US military will always be ready to operate. They have advocated preemptive strikes to gain their ends.
To sell this package to the regular folks they villify liberals and anyone else who thinks differently. They hype wedge issues like guns and abortion to polarize the electorate and pick up single issue voters. Talk radio and the christian right have ginned up support as well. The right wing is very disciplined and everything is planned to the detail.
Republicans are at their best when they are running as anti-establishment candidates, because when they get in power their agenda leads to crappy situations for the working class.
Democrats, or the party of the big tent, consist of about everyone else and are completely disorganized, focused on a thousand different things. They do not identify themselves as democrats as easily as republicans do.
Democratic principles include:
government of the people must level the playing field between the working class and the corporations. this in the form of wage laws, OSHA, EPA and other regulations such as SEC.
as of the last two decades, Democrats have become the party of fiscal responsibility. Republicans have not been balancing budgets where democrats have.
Freedom - the government needs to stay out of the bedroom, personal liberties is the heart of liberal thought.
Im sure Im missing a lot from each side but there are a few for each and I tried to be fair about it, although I know I will get flamed from all quarters.
Curly you should not take the word of others. Go and do some research and find out for yourself what the parties are all about.
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Originally posted by Yeager
The general feeling I get is that the republicans are against gun control, abortion, liberal welfare state, overtaxation, intrusive government to name a few.
The democratic party seems to support gun control, abortion, a liberal welfare state, overtaxation, intrusive government....
Things have changed these last two years and the lines seperating the parties have become muddled thanks to 9/11, the patriot act, George Bush.
I am for freedom to lawfully own firearms unregulated and regulated full auto firearms, I am almost totally anti abortion but conceed ultimate right to the mother. I detest the concept of a welfare state but agree about temporary safety nets for women with children. I believe in never contributing more than 30% of gross income for all taxes combined. I am against intrusive government in time of peace but concede that intrusion is a vital but distasteful fact of war being waged by islam against freedom.
Just to name a few and hey, I reserve the right to change my mind on any subject at any time (Call me a Kerry-go-round, if you must) :aok
that is a lot of middle ground where we can agree on things.
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Their names. What do I win?
-SW
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always vote for whatever side can get a hummer while in office.
if they can do that, they can do anything! ;)
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I think Yeager summed it up well.
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They don't want us to focus on the issues -- they want to turn the election into a beauty pageant.
I always thought professional wrestling was the better analogy, except it seems like fewer peope seem to know it's fake :)
I think there are some differences in focus, but at the heart of things money and other special interests rule, with power and reelection being the ultimate driver for 99% of politicians and both parties. FWIW I think inner city minorities are as poorly served by the Democrats as the suburban middle class is by the Republicans -- in the long term.
Charon
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Originally posted by strk
easy - the main thing they both want is POWER
Republicans - consist of conservative moderates, christian fundies/social conservatives/anti-choice, defense industry and large corporations, fiscal conservatives, neo-cons and some libertarians
they stand for keeping wages and worker benefits low to benefit the corporations
tax cuts that favor the rich over the poor and regressive tax policies in general
Defense spending and corporate welfare in particular
cutting social spending-
deregulation of industry
Right now neo-con PNAC guys are in favor at the White House - Rummy, Cheney, Wolfowitz, Kristoff - this group was founded in the 80's by those folks and Dan Quayle and Jeb Bush - their goal is to secure energy reserves so that the oil dependent US military will always be ready to operate. They have advocated preemptive strikes to gain their ends.
To sell this package to the regular folks they villify liberals and anyone else who thinks differently. They hype wedge issues like guns and abortion to polarize the electorate and pick up single issue voters. Talk radio and the christian right have ginned up support as well. The right wing is very disciplined and everything is planned to the detail.
Republicans are at their best when they are running as anti-establishment candidates, because when they get in power their agenda leads to crappy situations for the working class.
Democrats, or the party of the big tent, consist of about everyone else and are completely disorganized, focused on a thousand different things. They do not identify themselves as democrats as easily as republicans do.
Democratic principles include:
government of the people must level the playing field between the working class and the corporations. this in the form of wage laws, OSHA, EPA and other regulations such as SEC.
as of the last two decades, Democrats have become the party of fiscal responsibility. Republicans have not been balancing budgets where democrats have.
Freedom - the government needs to stay out of the bedroom, personal liberties is the heart of liberal thought.
Im sure Im missing a lot from each side but there are a few for each and I tried to be fair about it, although I know I will get flamed from all quarters.
Curly you should not take the word of others. Go and do some research and find out for yourself what the parties are all about.
Befor I got to the end o strk's post I'd about had it. but I have to say he's close with no cigar.
I myself am more of a libertarian identified repulican if that makes any sense. Here's what I am for:
The rich. Most of them have earned it and shouldnt pay more that 30 percent taxes TOTAL.
Corporations: They creat jobs....yes they also pay taxes. without either our society would cease to funciton
The so cald "living wage": Deals with the above....if you raise the minimum wage employers liek frys, hyvee, albersons, wallmart, will have to raise prices on products because they have to pay teenagers$12 an hour to stock shelves....let business decide what to pay employees...that's what a free market is all about.
Gun control: Dont punsih law abiding citizens with new and usless gunlaws when you dont even enforce the stupid gunlaws you have that dont prevent crime from criminals that buy guns.
abortion: (i'm very clear cut in this) A woman has the right not to be an "incubator" by keeping her LEGS CLOSED if she was raped thats different.....if not have the kid let somone adopt it if you dont want to be a responsible mother.
It doesnt take a government to raise a kid it takes a good parent with sound virtues and good smarts. leave kid rearing to the parents.
RELIGION: IMHO religion is an idea created by man to be closer to od....were as Christ was Man created by God to be closer to Man. There is no such thing in the constitution that says "seperation between church and state" If a town hall wants to have a christmas tree and a manora let them....
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Originally posted by Tarmac
Democrats: High tax big-government socialists
Republicans: Deficit spending big-government socialists.
:)
Winner
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[SIZE=10]WWW.LP.ORG[/SIZE] (http://www.lp.org)
you no talent bellybutton clowns.
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Yeah but do you realy like your FORD:D
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Ok, I added several that seemed to be overlooked --- environmental issues and fetal cell technology.
The only one I really take issue with is the use of socialists. We're not even close to socialism - but I sympathize with the spirit of the remark.
Now, when you're deciding who is going to be your next president, use the statements listed below instead of some stupid prejudices you learned at your father's knee.
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Democrats: For (most) fetal cell technology
Republicans: Against (most) fetal cell technology
Democrats: Pro choice
Republicans: Pro life
Democrats: High tax big-government socialists
Republicans: Deficit spending big-government socialists.
Democrats: Protection of organized labor
Republicans: Recent rulings against organized labor
Democrats: For gun control
Republicans: Against gun control
Democrats: Promote social spending (welfare, food vouchers & etc.)
Republicans: Against social spending
Democrats: For (most) environmental protection issues.
Republicans: Against (most) environmental protection issues.
Democrats: For (most) personal freedoms in your home.
Republicans: Against (some) personal freedoms in your home.
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Originally posted by stratman
Yeah but do you realy like your FORD:D
Heh, I bought a ford several years after they employed one W.E. Deming (http://www.deming.org/demingprize/demingprize.html) of quality control fame. The Japanese built their automotive/electronics industry on the back of Demmings TQC/TQM ideas.
The ford automobile immediately improved and I bought one.
curly
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Originally posted by Yeager
The general feeling I get is that the republicans are against gun control, abortion, liberal welfare state, overtaxation, intrusive government to name a few.
The democratic party seems to support gun control, abortion, a liberal welfare state, overtaxation, intrusive government....
Things have changed these last two years and the lines seperating the parties have become muddled thanks to 9/11, the patriot act, George Bush.
I am for freedom to lawfully own firearms unregulated and regulated full auto firearms, I am almost totally anti abortion but conceed ultimate right to the mother. I detest the concept of a welfare state but agree about temporary safety nets for women with children. I believe in never contributing more than 30% of gross income for all taxes combined. I am against intrusive government in time of peace but concede that intrusion is a vital but distasteful fact of war being waged by islam against freedom.
Just to name a few and hey, I reserve the right to change my mind on any subject at any time (Call me a Kerry-go-round, if you must) :aok
Well you don't seem nearly as fanatical as I thought you were from your other posts :lol
Given my extensive weapons collection, I also favor the right to bear arms, especially since the criminals can outgun the most honest citizen given the current weapons legislation. Given that, I'm more moderate, dare I say, "liberal" than most on this board on other issues. Even so, I'd vote for a McCain / Powell ticket regardless of their, or my, party affiliation.
(dons flame retardant suit) But, I'd also consider hearing what Hillary has to say in 2008...(ducking for cover) Might be fun to see her in the white house, just to "piss everyone off."
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Originally posted by AKcurly
We're not even close to socialism.
They confiscate something like 40% of my income before I even see it. 40% socialism is not so far from 100% socialism.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
They confiscate something like 40% of my income before I even see it. 40% socialism is not so far from 100% socialism.
Well move, Northern Aztlan is too hot anyway. :) We don't have government ownership of production, Funky. We are over-taxed and have a moron for a president who is accelerating federal spending.
curly
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Democrats - Against anything Republicans stand for. Republicans - Against anything Democrats stand for.
They're all pretty much for healthy babies & rainbows, and against terrorism & people who kick dogs.
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when I was really young I was against the democrats because they were mean to those colored people in the south... when I got a little older I was for the democrats because they gave everyone a bunch of free stuff and only taxed people who made a lot more money than me..
When i got older yet and made a little more than minimum wage I realized that I would now have to pay for all the free stuff they were giving away to the ungrateful little turds that were abusing it.
I believe that both parties are for bigger government but that the democrats are for more socialism than the republicans and they fear the citizen... they love humanity but hate people... people need to be aborted and watched like a hawk because... people are ruining the planet and are being mean to each other and if you let em have guns they may even revolt against socialism even if it is for their own good.
Democrats are every real mans worst nightmare... Democrats is a living with your mom and having a woman for a boss at work. It is having hidden social taxes on everything you buy do or even think about. It is going to work while the 3 section 8 zombie families on the block sleep in only to awake by noon and sit on the front lawn or work on trash cars all day with rap music or mexican music playing full bore. It is the surley look you get because you aren't doing enough to make their life easier.
It actually took me longer to appreciate Fords than it did to figure out that democrats were no ones friend.
but... I will comprimise on abortion... I will let you slaughter all the babies you want so long as I don't have to deal with any of your crappy gun control.
lazs
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It's very simple:
Republican: Smaller, less intrusive federal government and more local power. (Except when federal government is needed to set localities straight on what should happen inside the womb, who can mary whom, and what should be on the walls in our classrooms).
Democrat: Control over corporate abuses on workers and the environment. (Except when the labor unions, civil rights orgs, and enviros become oppressive and corrupt money machines in their own right.)
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Socialism is the most significant issue so far as I'm concerned and the democrats are heading there a lot faster than the republicans. Read Nilsen's thread on beer in Norway, is that what we want here? http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=115107&referrerid=2410
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yep... like I said... voting for democrats is voting for a faster slide into socialism.
Socialism will probly have to fail here even worse than it is allready before democrat voters are able to see it.
To make it simple to see... think of it this way.. are you planing on retiring on social security? do you find that a trip to the department of motor vehicles is a pleasant experiance that takes care of tasks efficiently and pleasantly?
Now.... if gay marriage and the right to... uh... excise the unborn are high enough priorities that that you are willing to live under socialism and not be able to defend yourself then have at it.
If you feel that your wife or girlfriend should run your life or feel that the best times of your life were when you lived with mom.... vote democrat.
lazs
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Both sides of the aisle are equally guilty of leading us down the path to socialism and here's why:
In order to get elected, a candidate of either party has to promise to do something for somebody. The somebody typically has to be a braod group of constituents. In order to get reelected, a candidate has to have shown that he actually did something for a broad group of constituents.
Doing something means passing legislation (in rare cases it may mean killing proposed legislation - but how often do you here of a candidate running on a platform of what bills they managed to kill? Look at Kerry now - he voted against some military spending bills for some very good reasons - special interest riders that nobody mentions - and he's getting raked over the coals for it).
The motivation of all representatives is to pass more legislation that benefits their constituents. No matter what ideology is at the root of it, enacting more and more legislation inevitably drives us toward more a socialist society. The mentality that we have to fix something that isn't right and the way to do that is introduce legislation is equally alive and well in both parties.
The way to stem the slide into socialism isn't to elect more republicans, it's to create gridlock by making the president and the legislative majority are on opposite sides of the aisle. Also, significantly shorten the legislative sessions with an associated reduction of pay and benefits for our representatives.
Here's something to ponder:
The Republicans believe Reagan was a great president - but he was often stiffled by a democratic majory in congress.
The Democrats think Clinton was a great president, but he was usually battling a republican majority.
Their own partiies think they were great because they were not able to blow it by ramming through their whole agendas - which would have been bad for everybody in both cases.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Well move, Northern Aztlan is too hot anyway. :) We don't have government ownership of production, Funky.
curly
What are you talking about? Government has ownership over ~40% of my production.
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Modern America kicks ass. We're not even half enslaved yet!
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I do agree with samiam.... the best government is one that is totally gridlocked. Those are allways the best times in American history.
We call then "lawmakers" we elect them as "lawmakers" and then we are surprised when they..... make laws???
We need to call em "law revisors" or "law reviewers" with the understandintg that they review existing laws to make them more clear or throw them out entirely... give em something to do.
lazs
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The idea that the US Democratic party is the oil on the slippery slope into a US socialist state is just so bloody ridiculous.............
In a country where opinion polls form policies and political funding is provided by "interested parties and lobby groups" then the core stuff will always reflect the middle ground or there is no 2nd term. Donkey or Elephant.
In such instances look to the man and the people he has around him.
IMO the main reason for not re electing Bush would be the names Cheney and Rhumsfeld. But then some good arguements for re electing him would be Powell and Rice.
Who will be in Kerry's team?
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yeah tilt... socialism is bloody well a good thing eh? Course the democrats are no threat to you ... you are allready a bloody socialist.
Gawd... will we have to say "bloody" and drink warm beer and be subjects and all? And I thought losing human rights like the right to self defense was the worst thing that could happen under socialism.
Get a clue folks... a limey just told you not to fear the democrats.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
yeah tilt... socialism is bloody well a good thing eh? Course the democrats are no threat to you ... you are allready a bloody socialist.
Gawd... will we have to say "bloody" and drink warm beer and be subjects and all? And I thought losing human rights like the right to self defense was the worst thing that could happen under socialism.
Get a clue folks... a limey just told you not to fear the democrats.
lazs
uhhh lazs... thats NOT what he said... try again 8)
dude