Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: muckmaw on April 27, 2004, 10:14:06 AM
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Get this...my monthly income just got slammed...why am I paying taxes, again?
How do people go out on workers comp or disability and defraud their companies and government and still live large?
Listen to my personal story.
My wife is 5 months pregnant with our second child. She developed something called placenta previa which puts her and the baby at high risk.
At the advice of her ob-gyn, she went on disability from her job as an assistant retail store manager and was told to stay off her feet.
Apparently, her company did the bare minimum for disability insurance.
Her weekly income was slashed from $800 net to the NYS minumum of $140.00.
That's $41,600 a year after tax to $7,280!
How are we supposed to get by on this until she can go back to work?
This is my taxes at work?
Nice.:rolleyes:
...end rant.
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Ok... as I understand it..
disability is an insurance. I assume that you work. Your wife is married so in order to be eligible for welfare your entire family income needs to be at a certain low level.
If you get to that level you will be given free housing and free medical and food stamps and even day care if needed...
There is a catch.. you need to be a professional welfare recipient.. you need to know the ropes as there is a waiting list for say housing and... some of the questions are "trick" questions on the aplications... only those with generations of welfare experiance know how to fill out the forms to bypass the trick questions and get the free goodies.
to me... this is not much of a life but it is much better than having to work for a lot of people. It is all they know for some.
Now... having said that...
having two incomes from you and your spouse and then living at that level is taking a big risk. Not only can one of you be injured or laid off or cut in pay...but... you may get divorced. All these things will cut your income in half or more and are to be expected.
Many companies offer insurance for income protection for accident or disability as do credit card and mortage companies. you can buy this insurance or, live at a level that you will be able to sustain at half income or... simply take your chances that nothing will happen.
What I have against welfare is not the "lap of luxury" lifestyle that it creates... indeed, most are at subsitence levels and only due well by fraud or other criminal income adders.... no... what I have against it is that it is so available to anyone who get's pregnant to get out of mom and dads house or that it is enough money to make it attractive enough to spawn generations of welfare recipients...
lazs
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Can she collect unemployment in that situation?
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That may have sounded a bit cold... I am sorry that you are in this position.
I certainly hope that you are not counting on a government retirement system (social security). When you decide to retire.
I guess my point is that you really can't count on the government (taxes or no) to help you if you want to live at anything above subsitance level.
lazs
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Learn from my mistake, gentlemen.
No, my advice is not avoid having kids...on the contrary.
But, as Lazs clearly pointed out, do not count in the government to help out if you fall on hard times.
If you can get supplemental disability or other benefits at your job, take it.
The government, as I have learned the hard way, is not in the business of protecting hard working people who get hurt and temporary cannot earn.
So, I've got some belt tigtening to do...
WWIIOL subscription...gone.
Personal trainer at the gym....bye bye..
Flight lesson..ouch, that hurt...so long.
Aces High subscription...are you freakin' nuts!! I'll go collect cans if I have to!
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Good deal muck... like I said... hate to see yu in this position... Socialism is a bad thing. It certainly made your situation worse than it needed to be.
Insurance companies like aflac and a few others offer insurance for disability that is like $30 a month and gives you say $1400 a month over and above any other benifiet you may recieve... contrast this with socialist tax based programs that cost you thousands a year and give you from very little to nothing and.... if you try to help yourself they.... penalize you with reduced (even further) benifiets! Hardly a situation that would turn a normal person socialist!
Allso... mortage companies have insurance that will pay all or a portion of your mortage while one or both of the breadwinners is disabled ... this also is on top of everything else you may get.
also... credit card companies have this insurance.... same deal...
also... most personal loans for say cars offer this... same deal soooooo...
let's look at it... socialist government.. run insurance.... Cost? thousands of dollars a year and next to worthless... at best, subsistance level liveing AFTER you have lost everything of value...
private insurance... Cost? maybe a thousand a year for 3 or four plans..
benifiet? $1400 a month for aflac or similar... $400-1500 a month for housing (mortage ins).. $400 month for car payment... 200-400 for credit cards.
very little belt tightening needed... higher numbers for people with higher income or higher debt... the way it should be.
This would work even with low income people who would have more money to spend on such insuirance if they weren't beoing cheated out of it by workmans comp and social security and other government mandated rip offs. Wages would also be higher without ripoff programs.
the down side would be that we couldn't help people who simply wanted a free ride for life.
lazs
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Muck .. the west coast hi-ways are mine ....... Get your cans from the east coast !!!
Sorry to hear it ,Good luck ..
as for the gov bennifits .dont count on them, you have to be a dope addict ,and come from an abusive relation ship to get any .
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Originally posted by muckmaw
WWIIOL subscription...gone.
No big loss
Personal trainer at the gym....bye bye
Huh?? Good! Unless, of course, this trainer was female and blonde, for which you have my deepest sympathy.
Flight lesson..ouch, that hurt...so long.
You never know, it could be an act of fate, your unborn saving your life
Aces High subscription...are you freakin' nuts!! I'll go collect cans if I have to!
You, my friend, are a man among men.
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The money means nothing, muckmaw. Do what the doctors say to do and I wish all of you the best of luck. My wife and son died during a premature birth from an undiagnosed placenta-previa condition on September 14, 1986.
Forget about the money.
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Originally posted by Rolex
The money means nothing, muckmaw. Do what the doctors say to do and I wish all of you the best of luck. My wife and son died during a premature birth from an undiagnosed placenta-previa condition on September 14, 1986.
Forget about the money.
I don't know what to say other than i'm sorry. I guess that does put it in perspective.
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Jesus Christ, Rolex, I am so sorry to hear that.
That could be the most devastating thing that could ever happen to a man.
How you live with that pain every day is beyond my comprehension.
god bless, Rolex.
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terrible news rolex... I agree with you, in comparrison, the money is nothing.
I have never really been all that interested in money except to have enough to have a roof and some freedom to enjoy life.
Health issues allways put money into perspective.
lazs
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Originally posted by muckmaw
This is my taxes at work?
No, its the private sector at work.
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Originally posted by GScholz
*LOL!* Listen to Lazs, the expert on socialism. JFYI I'm currently unemployed, and have been for nearly a year. I live in my own house, drive a BMW, have a nice summerhouse out of town, and I'm part owner (family thing) of a summerhouse in Spain.
Are you one of those countries we borrow from? Cause if so, I am helping pay for that, therefore, I would like to request a weekend at your summerhouse, ty.
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how long will your unemployment benefits last? Are you supposed to find a job ASAP? how does it work?
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Originally posted by GScholz
*LOL!* Listen to Lazs, the expert on socialism. JFYI I'm currently unemployed, and have been for nearly a year. I live in my own house, drive a BMW, have a nice summerhouse out of town, and I'm part owner (family thing) of a summerhouse in Spain.
Just because you Americans suck at making government programs work, doesn't mean nobody can make them work.
So wait a minute, you have not worked in a year, own a house, a summer house, a BMW etc....
So why does anyone in the country work if you can live large unemployed?
I'm doing something wrong here in the good ol' USA...working 50-60 hours a week at a job I hate to afford one house, a chevy and a buick.
I'm packin' my bags for spain...:rolleyes:
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Well, that does not apply here in the USA.
First off, I work for myself, so the rules dont apply to me. I only have one job.
My wife, on the other hand always worked 60 hours a week and because she was a slaried employee and not paid by the hour, she was not paid overtime. Apparently in retail management, you go home when the job is done.
Let's face it...her company really sucks arnold, even when compared to other blood sucking retail companies.
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now that is funny... sclotz makes it sound like he bought and paid for all that stuff off unemployment. He also says that if you never worked you are not entitled. If you get 62% who pays for it? what is your tax rate and do you have a seperate "unemployment insurance" payment that is deducted..
If you never worked then you would get... welfare. what is the your socialist welfare?
As for a house in spain... What did you pay for it? what did you pay for your house?
What happens when your unemployment runs out? Who pays for you?
I will admit that you people do socialism better than we do but at it's best it sucks... private insurance as I have said would do better. You wouldn't lose anything if it was covered. I would love to see how well your socialist system worked if it were open to anyone who suck across your borders.
lazs
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Thats another thing we would benefit from, Lazs.
Privitization of Social Security benefits.
I would rather have a seperate account of mutual funds where I manage the money that goes into SS, just like a 401K.
Anything would be better than we have now, as there will be nothing for me when I retire, and yet I'll spend most of my adult life paying into it.
BTW, after reading your posts, I checked into SS for my wife..
She would not qualify because they only pay disability benefits if the person...you ready for this...is expected to be out of work for 1 year or more.
Now, my wife will have the baby in October, so we are penalized for her getting better faster, and going back to work in 6 months.
Can you imagine that? It's tempting to get a BS doctors signature to say she can't work for a year, so we can get the benefits.
is it me or is that stupid?
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I understand completly... my girlfriend is going through pretty much the same thing... What they basicly say is that "we want you to pay for all these programs but they are not a safety net for you. They are for people who REALY need em... come back to us when you are completely destitute and we will dole out some benifiets for you."
I participate in calpers retirement so don't have to pay into the bogus disgusting SS... I also have a 457 plan of my own. I have no faith in the government and wish to pay for, or "participate" in as few of it's programs as possible.
sclotz... I agree that socialism is a better system for those who do not expect to work much but.... do you think that you live better for your income bracket than someone here does for the same income?
basicaly, socialism is a government run insurance program. Your taxes are the insurance benifiet. You can "adjust" the payment up or down the scale of the income brackets but it still has to be paid for. If you feel that you will never earn more than say $50,000 a year then a socialist government that taxed income under $50,000 lightly but clobbered anyone making over that would be a good thing for you... short term... your economy would not grow so everyone would have a lower standard of living.
lazs
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A lot of countries benifit from the US spending billions on armed forces that have helped keep Europe more or less safe, stable and able to afford to spend their money on socialist programs rather than defense.
Isn't it nice to not have to worry so much about your own self defence?
If the US cut it's military spending by 2/3rds, we would all be living like kings....
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Originally posted by GScholz
*LOL!* Listen to Lazs, the expert on socialism. JFYI I'm currently unemployed, and have been for nearly a year. I live in my own house, drive a BMW, have a nice summerhouse out of town, and I'm part owner (family thing) of a summerhouse in Spain.
Just because you Americans suck at making government programs work, doesn't mean nobody can make them work.
er that couldn't be anything to do with the fact that Norway is the 3rd largest exporter of crude oil in the world perhaps?
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Gsholz, our system would be much better if we didn't have to spend on defense....
I hear Norway only has plans to be able to defend parts of Norway against a limited attack....until help arrives. If the US could rely on this situation, our system would be working much better than anyone else's and we would all be very well off.
It's not so much your system, it's your situation in being protected by others and not being required to build a military vital to your survival.
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I guess what nuke is saying is that how long would your surpluss last (in days) if you were spending a billion dollars a day in iraq for instance?
If a person earns $50,000 a year here he will undoutably have health insurance provided. If a person wishes to purchase private income protection against disability or sickness then it is pretty reasonable as are insurances that pay for all your bills as I have stated earlier.
lazs
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I know a country or 2 in NATO that we used to depend on to support us.
Take some advice, don't count on your friends in NATO to fight side by side with you. Hey, you can always go to the UN!
And your right, the EU stood up to Russia and protected you from the red menace all those years...had nothing to do with a few hundred American ICBM's pointed at Moscow.
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well... we actually do seem to have both because of capitalism and a reperesentitive republic.. we are able to defend our country and have a higher standard of living at the same time. We pay less for goods because of our system. We would pay even less if our taxes were less and we had fewer interests to defend.
I am not saying that socialism doesn't work for a tiny country but that it doesn't work as good as our system for anyone.
lazs
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Rolex, even after so many years, you have my sincere condolences.
The pregnancy of our 2nd kid turned out to be a placenta previa too, but fortunately it was diagnosed early. Muck,I hope that everything will be fine for your wife and your kid, that you won't have to tighten your belt too much, and that you'll recover your income level quickly afterwards.
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we feel exactly the same on one point... I don't want yours either.
I do not believe that any socialism is needed here or anywhere for that matter.
lazs
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DeSelys...
Thanks for the comforting post.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I participate in calpers retirement so don't have to pay into the bogus disgusting SS... I also have a 457 plan of my own. I have no faith in the government and wish to pay for, or "participate" in as few of it's programs as possible.
CALPERS, 457... doesn't that mean you WORK for the government?
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mz. I work for the city. My group is an enterprise funded group. In about half the agencies have been privatized. I am in charge of my budget and I also have to bid against private contractors during negotiations but...
I am a city employee and as such, I am elegible for calpers and 457. What seems strange to me is that if I am underbid on running the facility it will get taken over by a private co. Normal practice is for the private co to retain the peson in my position but.... I will be forced to go on a federal government retirement system and out of the far superiior private calpers.
soo.. the city has a private retirement but the private co has a government retirement.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I will be forced to go on a federal government retirement system and out of the far superiior private calpers
You mean FERS? I think that was one of Reagan's better achievements(well, at the advice of Greenspan). It did away with the outdated civil service retirement and replaced it with with a modern one. You can put away up to 10% of your pay and they match you dollar for dollar up to 5%. And there are all kinds of ways to invest it, from no risk to high risk. Alot of people are doing quite well in it.
and you are vested after 3 years
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Here's what pisses me off...
My next door neighbor...well he's been picking up disability fot about a year now.
Want to know what his problem is? He's an alcoholic who does nothing to better his situation and sits home all day collecting checks, drinking Vodka and watching game shows.
PS. I know his brand of Vodka because I caught the Mudderfugger tossing empty bottles into my yard so his wife would not find them.
You believe this chit?
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Originally posted by GScholz
*LOL!* Listen to Lazs, the expert on socialism. JFYI I'm currently unemployed, and have been for nearly a year. I live in my own house, drive a BMW, have a nice summerhouse out of town, and I'm part owner (family thing) of a summerhouse in Spain.
Just because you Americans suck at making government programs work, doesn't mean nobody can make them work.
What an incredible load of waffle! Lazs, I can't believe you let this slip by w/o comment.
GScholz, in the 1960s, all of the Nordic semi-socialist countries were in deep financial distress. I don't recall the exact numbers, but gross taxation was approaching 60%. Indeed, your current taxation levels would be exactly the same (or worse) today if it were not for North Sea oil.
So no, your system of governmental finance has a nightmarish history for its residents. Enjoy the North Sea oil feller, it won't last forever.
And one other thing, had it not been for the United Kingdom, free Europe and the US, all Nordic countries would have been absorbed by the USSR.
curly
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Originally posted by GScholz
Did I hurt your feelings or something? How about Sweden or Finland? They don't have oil.
Nah, no hurt feelings, but just amazed by your blinders. :) How about Sweden, Finland? Tell me about their national health/welfare/whatever system. Then tell me about their tax burden on their gross income.
curly
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We've done the USSR and Norway debate Curly. GScholz is sore our nukes scared his grandparents and I think he figures we are the greater of the evils.
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Bad news muckmaw - I'm sorry to hear it.
Look at it as short-term, and you'll be rewarded for your sacrifrice by a healthy wife and kid... so that's something. Keep your eye on the prize.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Get this...my monthly income just got slammed...why am I paying taxes, again?
How do people go out on workers comp or disability and defraud their companies and government and still live large?
Listen to my personal story.
My wife is 5 months pregnant with our second child. She developed something called placenta previa which puts her and the baby at high risk.
At the advice of her ob-gyn, she went on disability from her job as an assistant retail store manager and was told to stay off her feet.
Apparently, her company did the bare minimum for disability insurance.
Her weekly income was slashed from $800 net to the NYS minumum of $140.00.
That's $41,600 a year after tax to $7,280!
How are we supposed to get by on this until she can go back to work?
This is my taxes at work?
Nice.:rolleyes:
...end rant.
Damn that is some bad luck. I hope your wife and child turn out ok.
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Originally posted by GScholz
You'd have to ask our Swedish and Finnish patrons here, but as far as I know they have very similar social benefits and taxation.
Gonna need some help. The first document I found was dated 2002 and I'm not looking further.
In Sweden in 2002, for income below SEK 430,000, the effective taxation rate (including both national incoming tax and municipal income tax) is 52%; for income above SEK 430,900, the effective rate is 57%.
What is SEK 430,000 in something I recognize (Euros, dollars, pounds?) Sorry, I don't know the exchange rate for Swedish kroners.
Any of you (Americans) paying 52-57% income tax? :)
curly
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Originally posted by GScholz
430,000 SEK is approx. 56,000 USD.
I must however call you on the Swedish tax percentage.
http://skatteverket.se/skatter/skattetabeller/04/preliminar/skattetabell_29_m.pdf
As the income tax table clearly states you must earn more than 155,401 SEK (20,200 USD) PER MONTH to get an income tax of 50% or more.
If you earn 430,000 SEK per year that's 35,833 SEK per month. Of those 35,833 SEK a Swede would have to pay 12,558 SEK income tax. That's 35%.
Those 35% cover health insurance, pension, education, care of the elderly etc.
How much do you pay for your health insurance? How about for your kids?
How much do you pay for your pension?
How much do you pay for your kids' education?
How much do you pay to get care for your elderly?
Etc. etc. etc.
We all pay pretty much the same ... we just pay in different ways.
GScholz, you did notice I used a 2002 document, right? It was an international comparison of taxes and I'm sure it was correct. Please recall I was talking about the 1960s time frame.
curly
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GScholz, there is a huge difference between me spending my money on the things you mentioned and giving my money to the government to redistribute as it sees fit. Socialism reduces us all to the lowest common denominator. Well, some are elevated rather than reduced, but at the expense of my unwilling efforts.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Excuse me?
Perhaps you could provide a link to this document?
You conveniently dodged my questions on how much you pay for the services our taxes cover.
http://www.vinge.com/pdf/Taxation_in_Sweden_2002.pdf
I didn't dodge it GScholz, hell, I really don't know! Throughout 36 years of employment, all deductions (total) probably averaged 35% (but this is a WAG.)
I've never been very interested in making money (or I would have selected a different area of employment.)
I know I made enough to pay for a home in 15 years; I know I made enough to buy new cars when I wanted them; I always had a bass boat when Nimitz was public school age; I always put money in an IRA.
Concerning the education of Nimitz, he won a full scholarship as an undergraduate and borrowed the money for law school.
Sorry dude, that's the best I can do(and the most I will reveal.)
curly
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Dunno about "expertise" but my experience with socialism consists of paying too much in taxes so too many can enjoy the fruits of my labors. He that won't work shouldn't eat.
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Originally posted by GScholz
A time where my nation was recovering from the devastations of the most destructive war in human history ... yeah, that's a fair comparison.
I selected the 60s - 70s as the time frame for two important reasons:
1) I remember many articles about the socialist experiments in Sweden. I remember taxration rates approaching 60% (and it looks like they haven't changed much.)
2) I wanted to choose a time when I could judge Sweden before the North Sea oil field was discovered. Oil warps the economy. Take a look at Saudi Arabia's economy -- why they're so efficient, they pay their citizens. Heh, does Alaska still pay their residents to live there?
Finally, if you think Sweden spent a lot of money recovering from WW2, you're talking about peanuts compared to the amount of money the US spent in executing the war and the Marshall plan which followed.
curly
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muck
sry to hear about your bad luck and wish you and yours the best
j sent an email to HTC, there is one month of AH you don't have to worry about
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Originally posted by GScholz
AKCurly, you must have read this wrong. This does not mean that if you earn 430,000 SEK (or 430,900) you pay 52% tax. It means you pay 52% tax on your income ABOVE 290,100 SEK. The 290,100 SEK is only taxed at 32%. This should level out at about 36-38%.
What about those that can't work?
Ok, fist of all I'm Norwegian, and if you want details on Swedish economy please ask a Swede. Second, and for the last time, SWEDEN DOES NOT HAVE OIL! Third, I'm from Norway
Got it! Denmark!
Then the Swedes pay no national tax (only municipal tax) if they earn less than 290,100.00 SEK?
I would rather grind a dog **** into my hair than read tax documents. If I find time I'll try to track down 1968 information, but I doubt it's on the net. Maybe I kept an old time magazine or two - I'll look there. :)
curly
I'm reading:
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My medical is paid for by my employer as is about everyone elses as part of our salary... which is still high by world standards..
Also... we dont pay 4 or 5 dollars a gallon for gasoline and allmost all of our goods are cheaper... those things are taxes too.
We do this while supporting a very large population of unemployable and immigarants and illegals who have no intention of ever working.
lazs
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I'm all for helping those that can't work but a little bit of socialism goes long ways. There are millions in this country that "can't" work and on disability 'cause they have the "not in the mood to work" syndrome.
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Originally posted by lazs2
We do this while supporting a very large population of unemployable and immigarants and illegals who have no intention of ever working.
Immigrants are some of the hardest working people in the US. Immigrants had a large part to do with the electronics boom during the late 80s and 90s in California.
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mrcoffee... sorry.. I really meant illegal aliens.. get all the PC and real terms mixed up some times.
lazs
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My mistake actually I misread your statement. Still some illegals are dam hard workers.
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>>Still some illegals are dam hard workers.
BTW: I just said that so as not to offend the mehicans.
:lol