Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Buzzbait on December 28, 2000, 09:03:00 PM
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Salute to all
Yes, I am one of those 2 week wonders, an ultra Dweeb. My kill ratio is below 1 :2 and I usually get my butt kicked when I go up against any of the decent flyers here. I`m still learning the flight model and although I don`t doubt I`d be pretty good if I spent another month or two here, right now I suck. I have been flying Flight Sims for about 4 years now, and I`m pretty good in some of the ones in the market. (In Red Baron and EAW I am in the Ace category) In any case, dweeb or not, I`m going to give you my critique of ACES HIGH, the Sim and the players.
Good Points :
1) The Server here is great. Compared with other online experiences I have had, this one is very stable and capable of handling 100+ flyers with no serious problems. The only system I have seen (And I haven`t flown Warbirds, so can`t comment on it) which comes close is RED BARON, but it tops out at around 50 flyers per server. Any more than that and disconnects start to become too frequent.
2) The aircraft seem to be modeled generally very accurately as far as their flight parameters are concerned. I have done quite a bit of serious research of WWII aircraft performance, (mostly Western European theater) and the figures here seem to be very close. I like the ability of the sim to model the difference in initial turn rate, high speed turn rate and various speed bleed factors. For example, the P-51D here is the best I`ve seen, accurately portraying the strengths and weaknesses of the real aircraft. There are some possible glitches. The Corsair and N1K2 seem a little too good at retaining energy, but on the other hand, the Corsair did have a innovative spot welded skin which reduced drag and the gull wing made possible a right angle join to the frame, removing the need for the additional wetted area of a wing to frame fairing, and the Violet Lightning was powered by one big bellybutton radial. (By the way, I didn`t fly either when I was online so you can`t accuse me of being a Nik Dweeb or C-Hog Dweeb) However, the Corsair should be a real pain to land on a carrier. Read Eric Brown`s `Wings of the Navy` for a description of how the aircraft flew. (Brown was a British Naval test pilot who flew all the British WWII fighters as well as lend lease aircraft used by the British)
3) The Graphics are very nice. Too bad most of the time you don`t get close enough to see your opponent`s pretty plane before you blow it to hell.
Bad Points :
1) The atmosphere on the server is not encouraging to newer players, or good sportsmanship in general. In the other Sims I fly, saluting your opponent is common, and compliments on the opponent`s flying skills are normal. In RED BARON, everyone uses `S!` or `Salute!` after a kill. In EAW, the usual term is `GG` for `Good going` or `Good Game`. I only rarely read salutes or compliments on the AH server. More often the comments were negative. Taunting, comments of `Dweeb!` etc. are common. If you want to build a community, you need a sense of respect where newcomers can feel at home. Otherwise, you end up driving people away before they can get a feel for the Sim. Maybe the experts don`t want the Sim to become too popular, but without new blood, any Sim will die.
2) Bomber Guns : Perhaps to give the bomber Jocks a better chance, the guns in the Bomber aircraft in the AH are incredibly accurate. This is completely contrary to historical reality. Single unescorted bombers were easy meat for a decently flown fighter. Even in 60 aircraft boxes with all the supporting fire from nearby aircraft, B17`s were knocked out of the sky in large numbers over Europe. The prime lesson of WWII was that unescorted Bombers could not survive against determined Fighter interceptors. This lesson was proven completely in Korea, where escorted B-29s were devastated by attacking Migs. Hitting a incoming fighter was extremely difficult for a bomber gunner. He had to deal with the additional factors that his own firing platform was moving in a separate direction from his own orientation to target. As well, his guns were movable and swivel. This produces additional drift factors as well as those of the target aircraft movement which must be taken into account before the target can be hit. On the other hand, a Fighter aircraft`s guns are moving at exactly the same speed and in the same direction as the aircraft. When flying straight, no calculation for own aircraft movement must be made for a Fighter pilot aiming his guns.
3) Level bombing Accuracy : In AH, the level bombers such as the B17, Lancaster and B-26 are incredibly accurate, able to hit positional AA from 10,000 ft and Carriers at sea from 20,000 ft. This is again runs completely contrary to the historical reality. The US used B17`s in the early stages of the Pacific campaign in level bombing attacks against enemy Shipping and found the results were extremely poor. They gave up on level bombing completely with B17`s, and went to skip bombing with B-26`s and other medium bombers. In Europe, event the fabled Norden Bombsight was not able to provide the same accuracy that its designers had intended. B17 formations normally were not able to hit exactly on target and usually relied on volumn of bombs dropped to accomplish their goals. The Lancaster was even more inaccurate. To see the current situation, where a heavy bomber drones back and forth over a airdrome hitting gunsites and hangers with pinpoint accuracy is patently ridiculous. This is also not a task which heavy bombers were used for in any regular fashion. With the exception of pre-D-Day attacks on German fighter fields by carpet bombing B-17`s and Lancasters, the heavies were not used to attack Airfields. More likely mediums were used, or most often Fighter-bombers.
4) Bomber durability : The heavy bombers, especially the B17 seem too fragile. If you can sneak up on a bomber, and avoid getting annaihalated by the 30mm gatling guns in the turrets, it only takes one good burst to knock a wing off. The wing spars on the B17 were very tough. Unless it was a 30mm shell, the effect historically was not as dramatic as seen in the Sim.
5) Overall Air to Air weapon accuracy : Most pilots in WWII could not hit a target unless they were directly behind it at 300 yrds or less. The bullet dispersion was such that it was generally impossibly to hit a target which was evading in a high `G` maneuver. In AH, the `Spray and Pray` method seems to provide good dividends, with more planes being knocked down this way than historically.
6) Ground Campaign : The way the ground war is modeled is quite simplistic and not even close to being a real representation. Everything is structured around the airfield and airfield capture. I guess this concept was okay when there were no ground units and C-47`s were the only means to take territory, but now it needs an overhaul. There are no front lines and no typical line of battle. Most of the time their are a series of raids conducted on a field by rogue bands of tanks. The defenders normally don`t bother to generate vehicles until the enemy vehicles are within bombardment range of a field.
7) I haven`t had much chance to see how the Naval aspects are working out, but if the posts on the message board are any indication, all kinds of ahistorical situations are occurring. PT Boats were not typical in accompanying a fleet at sea, neither were they generated by a fleet. As mentioned above, there is no way level bombers should be able to hit ships underway. The ships should also be zig zagging rapidly when under attack. In fact a fleet underway would also normally run a more leisurely zig zag course to avoid being too predictable for U-Boats. If you are going to allow for ships to exchange fire, then armour piercing ammunition should be available. And a destroyer escort hit by an 8 inch shell, HE or not, would not be around too long. Neither would a carrier. The small size fleets which are represented in the game would actually be easy meat for any attack by determined dive bombers or torpedo bombers. The British Battleships `Prince of Wales` and `Repulse` were sunk in 20 minutes by less than 50 attacking aircraft. Someone else in another post mentioned the attack on the `Yamato` in its last suicide run at Okinawa. In that case much the same thing happened. The biggest, most heavily armoured and armed battleship in the world, plus 10 supporting ships were sunk in a very short time period with relatively minor losses to the attacking aircraft. Without air cover, Naval vessels were extremely vulnerable. The AAA fire from vessels like the PT boat were extremely inaccurate due to the instability of the vessel and the considerable roll generated by even normal seas. For them to be used as they are now, as deadly accurate picket AAA posts is garbage.
Suggested Changes :
1) Bombers : Reduce Bomber gun effectiveness and Level bombing accuracy, (although perhaps not to the historical levels, to expect a side to generate massive fleets of bombers is not realistic) while at the same time increase their durability. This will force them into the role they historically had, that of attacking strategic targets. At the same time, provide more Strategic targets or make the existing ones more important to the functioning of a side`s forces. If destroying the Oil supply for a side can completely cut off fuel, then we`d see combat similar to that which occurred historically with escorted groups of B17`s at high altitude attacking targets in the rear areas of the enemy, and interceptors going after them. Aircraft such as the 190 A8 would become more important. At the same time, the targets can`t be too easy to take down. They should require multiple raids to eliminate.
2) Air to air accuracy : Reduce air to air acccuracy. This will mean aircraft will get up close and personal, providing much more excitement and interest. You`ll actually see more than a dot when you maneuver and the `photon torpedos` would be less likely to take you down at 1.2 distance.
3) Create a `FRONT LINE` : Generate AI strongpoints which would stand on strategic blocking points between opposing airfields and which would have to be taken down by tanks and aircraft before advances could be made. I would suggest these be emplaced on higher ground, and able to command the surrounding area. I would suggest a combination of AI light weapons similar to the airfield defences, backed up by an emplaced battery of field guns (4 pieces) which would lay down supporting fire and direct fire against tanks or other vehicles. The Battery could also range out to bombard hostile vehicles attempting to bypass the strongpoint. Players could reinforce these strongpoints with player controlled vehicles which could be generated at the strongpoint.
4) Create landing craft : With the current new map, replicating a kind of ` Island War` scenario, you need Landing Craft to transport Tanks etc. to an island to capture it. Otherwise, how else do they get there? Teleportation?
5) Add more land vehicles : There should be Artillery and Anti-tank tank guns capable of being towed and deployed by the M3. Plus it would be nice to see a 76mm Sherman and a German halftrack so historical scenarios could be put together.
So there is my two bits. Hope this provokes some comments and perhaps discussion leading to change. For myself, I won`t be subscribing until some changes have been made.
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no chance in hell, all of this has been pointed out before and the general mood is very much against making any of these changes
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Good stuff! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I think you will find alot of ppl here agree.
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You know what? I agree with every word he said.
Swoop
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So do the Rats.
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I agree with pretty much all of it, espc the air-to-air weapon with the spray-n-prey thing being so prevailant and the buff strength and guns.
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"The atmosphere on the server is not encouraging to newer players, or good sportsmanship in general... More often the comments were negative. Taunting, comments of Dweeb! etc. are common."
My sentiments exactly and the biggest turnoff during my 2-week trial.
Is it just that the bad apples of this community are the loudest? The attitude within the Arena and on this NG generally stinks.
PS-
To HTC: Congrats on raising the bar another notch.
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excellent suggestions IMHO and eloquently put!.
TOTALLY agree on ruducing lethality/accuracy of bomber guns and raising their durability.
I suggested this way back when they first upped range of guns but nothing ever came of it.
i really hope the guys at HTC read this post
hazed
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Is it just that the bad apples of this community are the loudest? The attitude within the Arena and on this NG generally stinks.
Yep, look at the number of people in, and the number of people actually doing the whining. The ratio is quite low, unfortunately they're loud.
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"If you have to ask, yes, you are whining."
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Very well stated suggestions and criticism.
As a B-17 driver, I've had my wings seperate rather easily and wondered why the same was not true of the Lancaster. I've also found the B-17 to be much more fragile than the Lancaster. I generally drive the Lancaster over the B-17 if I am the only one making a raid on a base, simply due to the larger payload (14 1000 pounders versus the B-17s 6).
This guy has written a long and detailed list of suggestions. I'm impressed, and hope the HTC folks have printed or added his comments to their ToDo list (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Paul
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Reduce air to air accuracy?
Each bullet is modeled. How do you reduce that?
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Re: Buff strength.
Spit 9 v Lanc......
Came in from the side, fired at 300 yards as the Lanc flashed passed my gunsite. I thought I'd screwed up the approach because I only saw hit sprites at the very end of one wing, no others. 1/2 a second later the Lanc exploded and I got the kill. It all happend v fast (no film either) but I coulda sworn I only got a few pings on the Lancs wingtip (5 hits max).
Swoop
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Well, dispersion was tightened up in 1.05 so the spray-n-pray isn't all that good for tactics anymore. Still, I'd loosen it up a smidge. When one round hits, at least 20 more will too. This means you can kill out to 650 yards easily; I've done it against both drones and people in H2H. One or two second burst and BOOM. Cannons are terribly powerful now. Aced one guy in H2H with a one second blast from a pair of Mausers from my 190-A5.
I'd turn the dispersion up a little so insta-kills aren't as probable.
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Flakbait
Delta 6's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
"For yay did the sky darken, and split open and spew forth fire, and
through the smoke rode the Four Wurgers of the Apocalypse.
And on their canopies was tattooed the number of the Beast, and the
number was 190." Jedi, Verse Five, Capter Two, The Book of Dweeb
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/htbin/custom1.jpg)
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Well, if you modelled in barrel vibration in the gun mounts, wing movement in flight (and wings do move inflight) you would find that even individually modelled bullets will vary significantly in their trajectories.
Look at it this way.
If front blade of a pistol is off by a millimeter from being exactly centered in the rear sight, the shot will land up to 8-10 CENTIMETERS off the aiming point at 25 meters.
Now, imagine a machine gun barrel moving a couple of millimeters between shots around a general center point.
Couple that with a wing moving up and down by up to an inch or two in maneuvers (and thus pointing the barrels out of true from the gun sight) and imagine what the bullet pattern would look like not at 25 meters but at 500 meters or further.
Now, lets throw in winds aloft.
Winds vary from the ground up. What you have at 50 feet is unlikely to be what you have at 5000 feet.
For one last tweak, lets throw in varying g forces in the two wings in a plane manuevering and shooting.
Still think all those barrels are pointing and shooting directly at your aiming point?
I'm not surprised most Aces got in pretty darn close before they shot.
I'd expect center mounted guns to do better.
But I still doubt I could hit much from a manuevering plane beyond a pretty short range.
Some folks here probably could. But not me.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
finn
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And don't forget Magnus Effect.
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Salute! Buzz, nice post.
Just one think, in old times, during and just after the beta, here was a land of sportsmen and cavalry, now this is gone...
Why?
Dunno, maybe quakeheads, maybe some plane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif), is really difficult to understand why. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
BTW your suggestions are very very interesting.
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I agree mostly. Remember that waves are not modelled in the ships, heck they were just introduced. Things like "rolling seas" need to be introduced in the future.
I think HTCs best bet now would be to fill in a lot of the gaps. i.e., the vehicles (realism), boats and add AI frontlines as well as supply ships/trucks/planes. Add some life to the arena (this means AI ships/trucks/planes) so there's always something going on.
Basically HTC, read up on what CRS is doing and borrow some of the ideas (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
There are 0 mm navy sims, and 0 good mm tank sims. Take advantage of the new elements you have added here. If you've seen one plane sim, you've seen em all ;0
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BuzzBait:
Excellent points.
Forget about chivalry, or you will be frustrated. There is huge ammounts of sportmanship in this game, you just wont see everyone doing <S> after a fight, but if you had a good fight, talk to the guy on private channel, like I do. Whinning, like you said, is done by a very small but vocal minority. As my tardling squadmate, Fatty, said, read all people whinning at once in the arena, and check the number of players in the arena. Its less than 2% usually (thats with 100 players (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) ) Just make sure you have fun. With its flaws (wich you mentioned and I agree 100%) Aces High is still THE best WWII flight sim.
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Having activated an account and flown some, I can agree with most of Buzz's points. Specifically:
1. Atmosphere. The majority of the people here are very nice - hell I even talked to Rip online the other night <G>. But, the vocal few who live by taunting or trying to find ways around the "bad word" filter give the arena an overall childish tone. I saw constant examples of taunting and cursing. Now, taunting is a time-honored tradition, but it's very easy to go overboard. IT's not uncommon to see folks here go overboard all the time. HTC has done its part with the bad word filter. It's up to the community now to set the tone of the arena.
FWIW I've flown in MacAW, AW, and WB extensively over the years. And in none of those arenas did I get this same impression. Sure, you get your occasional nuisance, but in general there was overall more positive attitude than negative. Here it seems to be 50-50, with occasional swings well into the negative. Maybe it's just the times I fly, but I see the same thing happen here on the boards.
2. Laser Guns. It just seems too easy to kill or be killed from 600+ yards. I have no hard evidence other than WW2 accounts I've read, but it just seems to easy to tag someone with a few rounds at 700 yards and kill him.
Aside from that, with 1.05 AH is really becoming a good sim. No complaints about the FM, and the features are very nice. I've kept up with all the version over the past 6 months or so offline, and this is the first one that enticed me to actually sign up. There's still a good many bugs, but HTC is quick about patching so that's not a big concern. The two issues above are the biggest downers for AH to me.
Spitboy -SW-
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Very good post,
You can call it an summary of things expressed by alot of us in the past... Dont expect an change towards what you have suggested anytime soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Way to go Buzzbait, its a very good post indeed. As you did I also came in from EAW and was surprised about the way ppl talked to each other here. I also agree that the agressive and unfriendly tone in AH is the greatest danger for the firms survival. Maybe its only 2% of the players but I do have a feeling that it gets worse during time, and that it will affect new players to behave the same way. I hope that HTC will find a way to bring it down to a reasonable level, else it will get unbearable with time.
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GrinBird
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OOOOPS, double post :/
<S>
Maik
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 12-29-2000).]
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These ARE the kind of posts I would like to see more often here (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
Totally agree with u, Buzz. Well at least at most points (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
<S>
Maik
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<9./JG 54 "Grünherz">
(http://www.angelfire.com/nt/regoch/sig.gif)
[This message has been edited by maik (edited 12-29-2000).]
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<salute> buzzbait!
TY for your post. I agree whole heartedly with the projected impression within the arena. But I challenge you and all folks to put on their thickest skin. I know of too many guys in here that are extremely nice and will throw you a salute if they have time. As far as the whining goes..yes there are a a few that are doing this. Dont let it ruin your experience.
the bomber guns and their ability to put a bomb in a window pane (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)-- IMO this is neccessary. I agree that it isnt historicall and no where near accurate. But in this enviroment you just wont be able to get 20--100 Bombers in a formation to do the damage you need. So..to compensate they make the bamber halfway survivable. If it wasnt like this..we would never see a bomber flying around. NOW THAT would be sad.
As far as the Air to air accuracy. I think alot of it has to do with the very visible bullet strikes. They let you know which way to adjust. Now I may be wrong, been there before. at the range you are talking about, I think bullet strikes would be visible but not like a Christmas tree. Another point I think is that the Damage model while being very good.. doesnt model everything that would happen in a WW@ fighter. Hydraulic leaks, guages taking a hit, broken glass, control surface linkage.. will be modeled in the future. We should see less wings coming off then, however recieve the kill nonetheless. alot more can be said by the more knowledgable in the crowd here.
I will say it was refreshing to read your post. I hope you stick around.
(http://home.nc.rr.com/ammo/public.html/unw_sig.jpg) (http://www.jump.net/~cs3)
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>>The atmosphere on the server is not encouraging to newer players, or good sportsmanship in general.<<
Unfortunately the rude 10 players out of 150 are the ones that fill up 80% of the open channel.
As for the overall atmosphere, I think a lot of people are frustrated this week with the new version and the problems that come with it. I also think that the current 3 team system and the 60 vs. 30 fighting that comes from of it turns a lot of people off.
Mickey
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Nice tone Buzz<S>
Your comments on a frontline are excellent...don't know how they would accomplish that with 3 countries here, but would enhance gameplay I believe.
In reference to other modelled aspects of AH, they are not perfect nor always realistic, however, gameplay issues must be taken into consideration as well.
Ahh...the community (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Well, I know of many and also know many...overall, this community consists of good natured people from diverse backgrounds who share an interest in aviation and fun...just as in life, there is an element, who for whatever reason, gets out of line....my guess, maturity level.
This sim, unlike the other online WWII sims I've flown since 1989, is dynamic, in that it is evolving as we fly it....HTC is consistently improving or tweaking, reaching for excellence...that alone, is the best part of flying Aces High...I know that HTC will continue to raise the bar, and for thirty dollars a month? Enough said (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Give me a shout while online and come fly the friendly skies of AH with the 13th TAS...it's a side of AH you should see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ice
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I dread posting this suggestion due to the likely responses =o)
Regarding the misconduct of a few, I have had a lot of experience with this in Air Warrior. Kesmai kept AW Classic running after they started AW3, but they didn't pay much attention to what was happening there. AW has volunteers that monitor the arenas for trouble makers. Criteria for doing this is based upon the complaints of the players, and the interests of the company. I was one of these and was assigned to AW Classic. What I found there could only be called anarchy, with a few players making the majority miserable. The majority were great people, but were drowned out by the relatively few bad apples. Eventually, these problem makers got cleaned up and the place was once again fun to play in.
The word filter idea is good, but it can't possibly replace human beings using good judgement. These folks can also serve to help other players during good times. However, the use of human beings as arena cops has it's problems and needs to be well managed by the company. Kesmai devotes a good deal of resources toward this. I suggest this type of approach. Many here will likely dislike this idea, but in my experience most are happy to have this presence in the arenas when the need arises.
BTW, I don't play Aces High but am very impressed with v1.05... will probably have to break down and join. Kudos to Hitech and his staff.
grizzly (hi Westy)
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I now have to squelch the open channel or I'll argue with every whiner out there +(
AKskurj
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Good post Buzz.
Like some of the others have said, I will also add my own twists too.
As a bomber pilot, which is virtually all i fly, I can address some of your concerns/notings about bombers.
Gun lethality: Well, the bombers guns are not auto and are manned. The accuracy of those guns can be attributed to some very fine pilots. Myself,..I pretty much am a lousy shot as I get blown out of the skies with great regularity and very seldom take a plane with me.
On the other hand, I fly with a squad mate who is incredibly deadly in a bomber. I have to surmise, it is not the lethlity, but the ability of the gunner that makes them so deadly.
As far as bringing down bombers. Well,..as a bomber pilot I know it is pretty easy, if you are patient. I have gone against many pilots who know where the seams of safe flight are to approach a bomber. They usually get me without me ever being able to land a shot on them.
On bombing accuracy: Yes,...they are way too accurate. I never miss when I drop on a target, regardless of alititude. Bombing a CV is a bit more of a challenge as you have to gauge where the CV is going to be in relation to your alitiude, flight speed, and his course and speed.
Overall: AH makes some concessions to game play, which have no bearing on historical data. For bombers it is quite simple, and I beleive appropriate.
Bombers are dreadful planes to fly. You take off, fly for 15 to 20 minutes to get alt, then hopefully reach your target and drop your load.
To make it a bit more fun and less frustrating for a bomber pilot concessions are made to bombing accuracy and gun management. If I knew, before I took off, that I would only have a 50-60% chance of destroying my target and/or a 50-60% chance of reaching my target, I would be less inclined to fly a bomber and would certainly be more frustrated.
I find the concessions to playability very well balanced.
Even with these concessions, I find it extremely satisfying to plot a course to a target, reach the target, destroy it and get back to base. Many times I have sweaty palms on these flights, which says a lot in in itself. Then I get to follow all that up with a story on the BB about it.
I think very few people, including myself, would spend the time it takes to pilot a bomber if we knew our chances of accomplishing our mission was really low.
There are probably those pilots that would want the more realistic flight/bombing model, but I think they would eventually get very frustrated.
If bomber pilots could count on escort, then maybe it would be different, but I can only remember 2 times I have had fighter escort on a bombing mission. Most of the time, I am alone, or with (if I am lucky) another bomber or bombers.
Overall, I have to say I think HTC has done an admirable job of balancing playability with reality.
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Roy "Skuzzy" Neese
President, AppLink Corp.
http://www.applink.net
skuzzy@applink.net
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Hi Grizzly! I'd love to wing with you again. ALOT! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) And spot-on as usual (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) with what you were saying in your post.
Folks, please do not forget that the MA is open to the folks with two week free accounts. And that is where you will find the source of 80% of the tripe and assinine behavior. Sure there's some other taunting but it would not have the same encompassing effect if not for that other 80% that makes the MA chatter have such a foul air at times.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 12-29-2000).]
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Thank You Siskel & Ebert (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Good post, great ideas.
thanks for taking the time
stick around, it'll only get better
<S>
Eagler
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I think the vast majority of the community is good. There are always the vocal minority that give people a bad taste.
I must add that I .squelch 1 as soon as I enter the arena. So the only squeaking and cursing I see are on the boards and not in the game. It is much more enjoyable to fly that way. I really don't need to see anything on channel 1 -- good or bad.
I do all my talking directly to the player, not on channel 1. And, if someone on the green channel needs help (newbie), I try to help as much as I can.
Fury
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Heya Griz! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I agree as long as I'm the one with the button (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Just kidding...AWDOS was a great place...wouldn't mind seeing less of the the bad apples and an influx of new players, who will STAY.
Give me a shout when ya get online...if ya fly with westy, guess you'll be the enemy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Ltr
Ice
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This guy deserves a 1 month free trial =)
<S>!
I agree with all of it, I particularly hope the buff and photon torpedo comments get thru to HTC, these are desperately needed changes.
Now if they just turned off icons when below 1.0 range and made icons visible only at 3.0 range we would have a much different and enjoyable game. Wow, just think about it, no more getting CHOG-Plinked at 1.2d by Torque! What a DREAM! *Grin*
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Good List! Well done. I agree with very much of what you said, especially regarding sportsmanship. One bone of contention is regarding bomber accuracy. Bomber accuracy needs to be a little better than real life for playability reasons. You simply do not see bomber raids with historical numbers in these online flight sims. If buffs aren't effective by themselves or in flights of two or three, no one would fly them.
I'm certainly no proponent of bombers hitting acks from 30k. I'm a CO of a heavy bomber squadron that hits exclusively strategic targets. We fly close to an hour to get to the target. It would be a great disappointment to get there and miss.
<S> IC
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Sorry Buzzbait... while I admire the skill exercised in writing the above post, I have to call roadkill.
The call is made on the basis of several observations. Mostly, these arguments have all surfaced time and again in some form or another and will continue to do so. It seems you have been lurking for some time now because you present information in a manner that indicates that you have been either reading.. or been a part of those discussions.
The N1K and Corsair e-retention comment was very curious. Such a well-informed post with this comment... despite the fact that you've "never flown either". Hmmmmmmm.
I get the feeling you posted a set of valid discussions that have raged on this board for quite some time. You are yet another vet player of this game with yet another alias. I'm sure you've read about that fad too.
Sorry, but I can't get all excited about any post like this that is not based on 100% honesty. I get the feeling you are hovering somewhere around 40% on that factor.
BTW.. you make some valid points. But you also spew diatribe at times. The "30mm gatling guns in the turrets" and comments about the N1k and F4u flight model reflect this. Also, you argue for realism but comment on the lack of <S> you see in the arena. Quite the paradox. Whereas chivalry was demonstrated in several stories in WW1 and 2... those stories comprise a small percentage of the war. A very small percentage.
People seem to want to play a war game where everything is totally realistic and every likes each other. The two never shall meet. Sorry, but if you even pretend to pursue that... your argument is flawed from the start.
Also, you offer no real solutions to problems. You present issues and "solutions" that basically mean "do it they way they did in WW2". You don't offer any real explanation of how to simulate it in a game. You see, that is what this is.. both a simulation and a game. HTC cannot make the simulation and assume everyone will treat things historically. They may have thought that at one time (long before HTC) but I'm sure that awakening was near instant.
Look at the construct of the game and offer real solution within those limits. What subtle changes can be made to help them move towards your vision of how an MA should be? Especially how an MA with zero command structure should be? Just how do you make it anywhere near realistic?
There is a time and place for most of the stuff you described. Extensive scenarios would be it. The scenario people are new to it and haven't really scratched the surface of its capabilities yet. With a few changes to control functions, HTC could give them the tools to do the aboved mentioned things in a psuedo-realistic environment. That is the only way it can be done.
WW2 wasn't about the capture of land in a 10vs10 arial engagement. It was not about a group of 4 bombers laying waste to an entire area. Any attempt to make a game represent that will be unrealistc. Those are the types of limits HTC has to work with. Those are the types of limits you need to consider when making suggestions for improvement.
AKDejaVu
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Overall I think I agree with your points. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Its a shame that a few loudmouths can make the community as a whole look bad. I suggest squelching them or just channel 1 in particular.
Bombers. I agree with your points, but I also realize that the bomb accuracy and defensive gunnery is a concession to playability. Otherwise, we wouldn't ever see bombers in the game.
As too fighter versus fighter accuracy in real life in comparison to the game, lets not forget one thing. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Most of the players you meet in the arena, have a higher number of "shots fired in anger" than the combined total of the entire 56th Fighter Group at the height of its skill. And I won't even get into Icons, and such.
Nice post Buzzbait, and I hope you stick with it.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Skuzzy!
Pardon me while I applaud what you wrote
<clap clap clap>
I love flying the bombers and goons. Since they are slower and less glamorous aircraft than the fighters, I am glad some concessions were made in regards to bomber accuracy.
Teammates are quick to yell they need hangars killed or acks destroyed and we bomber pilots go for it, slowly climb to altitude, expose ourselves to ACK and enemy fighters. More often than not, we do not make it to the target for a variety of reasons...couldnt clear mountains, got gang banged by fighters, damaged, etc. Seldom do I get escort to the hot spots ("Use your gun stations" they yell...as I am torn up while in the bomb sight view...and these same people are miffed when they hear the hangars are still up since you failed to hit targets).
And how many of us have driven the goon...been told an area needs troops, you fly for 20-30 minutes to get the goon there, and everything is up. Escort? Ha! So, you are torn up either by base AAAs or ememy fighter. All because you tried to be a nice guy and bring troops to a requested spot.
While there are days when teamwork is fabulous on the various teams, this is not always the case. I think too many folks under value their bomber and goon drivers. So...for what its worth, for all the hell the bomber guys go through to GET to target, its at least comforting [for me] to know that when I drop on the crosshairs, whatever was under them will die.
Lastly, this is an annoying bug that's been around for a while...while in the Lncaster, if a guy is appraoching my tail gun, I can fire away, then stop. If I try to resume firing, it will not. Plenty of ammo and no damage, Just the gun refuses to work. And since the Lancaster has very few gun positions to defend its low 6, its very frustrating to watch yourself get torn up. Makes one regret spending 25 minutes to get the big beast to altitude.
Great post, Skuuzy, and others.
Paul
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Nice first post, Buzz.
Welcome to HELL! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Buzzbait, What is your handle in the game??
Your score doesn't check out.
No way this guy is a two-weeker.
Something seems more than a little fishy here.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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LOL! Hblair
The comment about F4U-1C and Niki burning no E, kinda made me suspicious too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
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Well for the " I want to screw up and get sprayed over, and over, without paying for it" crowd. There is always WB.
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Salute all and thanks for your replies
First of all to AK DejaVu: Whether you choose to believe it or not, I am not a veteran flyer. Yes I read the board and noted the discussions about the C-Hog, N1k2 etc. I don`t know about you, but I make a point of informing myself before I go into a new Sim. I read every single post I could in the technical discussions to garner info re. how to fly aircraft correctly and successfully. And regarding knowing about the Corsair and N1k2`s energy retaining abilities: I flew a Typhoon quite a bit, and had plenty of opportunity to watch after a Headon, a N1K2 turn on a dime and come right after me with barely a loss in speed. Going high into an immelman or loop after that, you better have some speed or they will be toasting your butt. And I also have been on the tail of a C-Hog many a time with superior `E` to start, and tried to follow them through their evasions only to burn my energy and see them zipping along with nary a pause. (Even in one of those damn canyons where they have very little room to maneuver, they can give you fits) As far as your comment that : `you never flew a N1K2 or Corsair`, I flew them several times offline and in H2H. Enough to form a pretty good opinion. It just so happens that the P51d, P-47 and Typhoon are my favourite planes. I didn`t fly the P-47 much because the models offered are the ground attack versions. The early Razorback models D4 through D-23 with water injection and paddle blade prop were the hot setup as they didn`t have all the Jabo required reinforcing etc. on them to weigh them down and had better wing loading. Bob Johnson and Gabby scored most of their kills on these models. (By the way, the Pratt and Whitney in the P-47 was the most easily hotrodded engine around in WWII, and many US mechanics souped up their pilot`s machines. I believe Johnson had his set up to take 72 lbs manifold pressure) So I ended up in the `Stang and Typhoon.
Second : Why don`t you go back and re-read my post again. You accuse me of offering `…no real solutions.` Where does that come from? Creating Strongpoints is no big deal. Just replace the existing vehicle bases with them. Add a few more light weapons and the battery of artillery. And creating a Landing craft is unrealistic? I don`t think so. Not if they can put together a PT boat or a CV. There is already another post out there pointing out that the ground game is dead with the existing island setup. And adjusting the overall accuracy of air to air gunnery is a very simple matter. Just multiply the existing numbers by a percentile. Bingo, done. Same with bomber durability and accuracy. The programs are already in place, they just need to be tweaked.
I`d say you don`t really have a handle on the issues I raised and are just responding based on a bit of paranoia about people taking aliases.
To Scuzzy and the other Bomber guys : I appreciate your concern. I know what you guys go through to get your big birds up there and on target. And yes you deserve more of an escort than you usually get. I normally love to fly escort in a P-51 or 47. Up at 25,000 ft they really start to motor. You get some great chances to kill the interceptors when they try to climb up after the bombers. Unfortunately with the limited tryout period, I was concentrating more on learning the fighter vs fighter combat and practicing ground attack.
But I think you might be surprised by how the game developed with my suggested changes. I`ll give you an example :
In RED BARON, the original game had no bombers or recons in Multiplayer. Online was generally one big furball. But some many creative souls found out how to create new flyable aircraft shapes, how to modify the FM`s to produce bomber like characteristics, learned how to create rear firing guns, and presto chango, we had bombers and recons. Now prior to this any aircraft could bomb, and the fastest fighters could zip in and take out a target. Now with these less maneuverable, slower, but more durable bombers, different tactics had to be created. Systems developed based on the concept of the `High` escort and `Low` escort, (Close escort and Roving for you WWII boys) with elaborate tactics for getting the bombers to target. The bombers themselves adopted self-defence tactics, Lufbery circles, crisscrossing to provide targets for squadmates, etc. Attacking forces flew recons of targets prior to the arrival of the bomber group to determine defences and the best approach. In return, the CAP forces developed their own tactics. They divided into Fast fighters tasked with tying up and engaging escorts and Sturmgruppe`s to attack the bombers. Different aircraft were used in the different roles. The complexity and energy required to produce a successful attack made the Sim far more interesting. There is nothing more exciting than coming up to target, seeing the opposing forces maneuver for position, then experiencing the incredible intensity of the run in as all hell breaks loose and both teams fight like mad to achieve their goals.
I think if unescorted bombers found it impossible to get through, that the laws of evolution would dictate the adoption of escort tactics. Everyone wants to win. If one side is winning by escorting their bombers, then they other side would adopt the technique too. In response you would see development of advanced CAP tactics. Everyone would be forced to cooperate to achieve their goals.
I know if my Squad came online in AH we would use these tactics. You would see us in formations of 3 B17`s or Lancasters, escorted by 4 or 5 long range fighters. And we`d go anywhere we wanted on the map. (assuming we`d learned how to fly the aircraft, lol, and we didn`t run into a pack of Mitsu`s or Citabrias)
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S! all
My handle is `Buzzbait`. And you can read my scores, (and laugh) anytime. Tour 11.
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I still believe you to be full of it buzzbait.
You claim to read things here to be informed.. but never posted. Hmmm
You claim experience with several flight sims but cleverly omit any experience with WB? Hmmmmm
You show to be an avid WW2 flight enthusiast but you haven't tried this game in the last year and a half? Hmmmm.
As for reading your post... I did.
Second : Why don`t you go back and re-read my post again. You accuse me of offering `…no real solutions.` Where does that come from? Creating Strongpoints is no big deal. Just replace the existing vehicle bases with them. Add a few more light weapons and the battery of artillery.
Yeah.. this is a great idea. Ad more ack (ack and artillery has not been a problem for ground troops yet). Because experienced players won't note where they are located and destroy them in the same manner they do with the ack at the fields. Ack is not a threat to a panzer. Adding more will do nothing to slow them down.
You really don't offer anything that enhances the realism of the game. More fixed targets do not enhance realism. The change must be made at the player level.. not the ai level. Any addition of AI means just another thing you have to learn to game.
Try to get people to actually use organized defense. Try to get people to do patrols knowing there is a good possibility that they will not see another aircraft. Try to get people to fly as an organized team. These are the first steps toward increasing realism. And these things simply aren't going to occur day in and day out in the MA. There is very little you can change that will deter from the fact that many people just want to show up and fight.
Like I said before.. if you really want more than that out of this game... participate in the scenarios.
AKDejaVu
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Buzz:
You are correct that the player atmosphere among opponents in AH is lousy. I just squelch channel 1 because it is nothing but trash talk. That's a shame, because I'd like to salute my opponents with a "Good Kill" like we always did in FA. But generally the atmosphere on the teammate channels is quite good. So squelch the white and listen to the green.
As for the rest of your suggestions, well ... some are good, some are bad. But let me point out that you must have a fairly high opinion of your own perceptive and analytical abilities to think you can play a game for two weeks and then announce how to fix the game.
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Salute to all
Ok DejaVu lets examine your logic:
You say I am veteran AH player who is operating under an alias so he can make a point with a post.
So that means the following:
I get a new name.
I fly 2 weeks under that name getting myself killed at close to a 3-1 ratio.
I do this all just so I can make one post on the main board where it is likely to be overlooked.
Well sorry, but the logic escapes me. For one, I fly to win. I don`t like losing. If I am learning an FM or a new plane then I expect it for a while. But deliberately lose for two weeks? That may seem like fun to you, but me: No thanks. I just came out of a 36 day, 8 Squad war on RED BARON in which I scored close to 150 kills with a 3-1 death ratio. I ranked in the top 5 pilots in that war. I usually do at least 2 or 3 to 1 in kill/ratio in EAW. If I could come into AH and kick ass, then I would.
I guess you are entitled to call what I posted `roadkill`. And I`ll continue to list you among those who I would classify as a little on the paranoid side.
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What's your point, AKDeja? Is it so hard to believe a new pilot has been reading these boards?
I activated an account last week, but I've been reading these boards for the past year. I'm well aware of all the recent and past controversies, but that doesn't make them any less valid, does it?
And beyond that, why do you feel compelled to call roadkill on him? So WHAT if he is not a rank newbie - his concerns were presented in a nice, clear, objective way. Everything he said has a case that can be argued. He outlined what he saw as pluses, and pointed out some negatives.
I really don't see your point, unless it's to just promote discontent.
Spitboy -SW-
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LOL! go back to warbirds spitboy.
Why is it so hard to believe? Well.. someone analyzing something he seemingly hasn't tried. Or.. does the fact that he hasn't played since 1.05 came out mean he still is qualified to render an oppinion on bomber efficiency vs ships?
The whole thing is fishy. The fact that it is done seemingly anonymously makes it even more so.
The fact that a sim enthusiast who has been playing on-line sims for 4 years is just now trying AH out is strange. The fact that his two week evaluation seems incredibly information filled, considering the fact that the other pilots in the arena were not very nice. Considering the fact that all of these are previously discussed issues... for wich he read but didn't have any comment. The fact that he brings up his kill record 3 times to justify is honest dweeby opinion.. then says he doesn't like losing (no bias there eh?).. even pointing it out as a reason he couldn't possibly be an old player with a second account because of the record, despite the fact that I never mentioned anything in regards to a bad record in my post.
Ohh.. my personal favorite:
I don`t know about you, but I make a point of informing myself before I go into a new Sim.
He makes a point of "informing himself" before going into a new sim... but doesn't ask one single question on the bbs prior to his post. It just gets better and better.
Seems strange. Too strange. Your presence here doesn't lessen that one single bit spitboy.
AKDejaVu
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Oh.. just a couple of quick questions for Buzzbait:
1) How many bomber missions did you fly? Note the word fly.
2) How many kills did you have from the gunner position while flying a bomber?
3) How many times were you killed flying a bomber?
I'm just asking these questions because you like to be informed. I'm wondering where you got the information for your bomber observations.
Just another thing that makes me go hmmm.
AKDejaVu
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Salute to all
Ok DejaVu, although you still haven`t used logic in any of your analysis, I will go on:
I didn`t post on the message board because I didn`t realize the message board registration was different from the Game registration. I kept trying to log on with my game user name and password and kept getting rejected. I didn`t realize what was going on until I got a reply to an e-mail which I had directed to HiTech Creations. But whether I posted or not, most of the questions I had were answered by other earlier postings.
As far as how many bomber missions I flew:
I flew no bombers online that I can remember. (I flew the C-47 once) Prior to registering, I flew all of them offline and practiced my bombing, to the point that I could hit the AAA on a field from 15,000ft. I also observed many other bombers during the time I was online hitting targets from those altitudes. During the time I was online, you`ll have to excuse me for concentrating on my own major interests which are fighters. I did make a point of driving vehicles in combat because that was something which I hadn`t had the opportunity to examine.
As far as never paying attention to AH in 4 years: First of all I am in two online Squads. One I am Tactical Officer, the other I am X/O and Tactical Officer. That takes up a lot of my time. Still in the down times, I explore other Sims. During the original ACES HIGH Beta, I flew for 3 weeks at the end of the Beta. I flew the B17 many times and got many kills. Now of course things have changed since then, but I still see the accuracy of bomber gunners as being too high. During my current exploration, I also observed fighters attacking unescorted bombers and attacked many bombers myself. In 75% of the cases I observed or experienced, the bomber either shot down the fighter, or both died. Rarely was one fighter able to kill a bomber 1 on 1. Even the supposedly fragile JU88 with its puny rifle calibre positions is a tough proposition.
I have noticed some of your other posts on this board. You seem to delight in squashing any suggestion for change. Anyone proposes anything new, you are quick to jump in and oppose. I think you should just relax and encourage healthy discussion instead of verbally abusing those who are interested in exploring constructive options.
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LOL!
OK.. that explains it bud.
Offer opinions on things you've never done some more.
Of course, flying a b-17 over a base and dropping bombs accurately is all there is to it. Never mind that pesky fighter defense.
Try this... play the game. And offer opinions based on your PLAY! Right now you are making several leaps in logic that you now admit are based on zero on-line experience.
Get real bud. And use your original id.
AKDejaVu
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dejavu--
Look, whether the guy is genuine or not (I have no idea) why would you not give him the benefit of the doubt-- and if you dont believe the guy, why not keep it to yourself? Are you the self proclaimed BBS police? I thought HTC held that position. You doing nothing but stirring the virtual pot.
ammo
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calling it like I see it. Subversity in any form is not something I tollerate well.
AKDejaVu
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Salute to all
except maybe Deja Vu, lol
Yep, I`m sure he`ll have the last word. After this one I`m not going to waste anymore of my time.
I came back to make the point that a M7 Priest with the 105mm howitzer and an M36 Tank destroyer with the 90mm gun would perhaps be easier to model additions than a towable AT gun and towable Howitzer.
I`ll leave it up to other readers to consider whether I`ve made any valid critisms. DejaVu obviously has no room for any viewpoints except his own.
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Subversity??? lol. yeah, lots of them Subversities hiding under the bed.
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I have room for many viewpoints buzz. Just don't like it when people do it under false pretences.
Gotta admit.. if it smells like nath.. treat it like nath.
AKDejaVu
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Buzz:
I thought the same thing about bombers when I had only been playing AH for two weeks. Died everytime I attacked one. After a few months, I learned how to kill them right. Now I kill 5 to 10 buffs for every shootdown I suffer, and I usually survive the bailout. And the Ju-88 is a creampuff. So what's so unrealistic about that?
As for Deja ... Dude, chill out ... it's just a game.
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Ah.. I'm not upset Ed. I don't believe I've even really been insulting. I just prefer people to be honest and up-front when they post things like buzz did. He was not.. still is not.
As for the frustration over killing buffs... when they are lethal is when a bandit slowly climbs from behind. Any time the bandit has an alt advantage, the buff has reasons to worry.
The thing is, that what you learn in the first two weeks in no way explains this. Citing realism doesn't adequately explain it either. Realistically.. any fighter that slowly climbed onto a b-17's 6 was in for a .50 callibre shower from hell. Training is what prevented that from happening more.
AKDejaVu
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AKDejaVu ... Bad Apple
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LOL virage.. can't help but notice you registered the same day as buzz.
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I'll deviate from most in this thread and disagree with much of what you post, Buzzbait:
1) 'The atmosphere on the server is not encouraging..' TOTALLY TRUE
2) 'Bomber Guns : too accurrate..' It ain't that easy to hit with buff guns, how many times have you tried it? Once you are good you have a good chance of killing a slow attacker, but a good BnZ fighter using a realistic attack is tough.
3) 'Level bombing Accuracy ..' TOTALLY TRUE the Norden is way too accurate and easy to use. Something should be done about this.
4) 'Bomber durability : ..' This has been done to death here. There is no scientific way to simulate how much damage a plane can take, so AH approximates it. I read where the LW concluded it took on average 4 30mm or 20 20mm to bring down a 4-engined buff. That is pretty close to what you get here. You may get the occassional PK, too.
5) 'Overall Air to Air weapon accuracy :..'
Ballistics are one thing which can be modeled pretty scientifically. If they are off here please provide some evidence. Remember that in WWII many pilots took to the sky with little or no gunnery training. Here all of the pilots have fired every type of gun in every possible firing solution 10 jillion times. It only follows that we are a bunch of deadeyes. A lot of WWII aces attributed much of their success to being good shots. Throw in the fact that most of the planes so far are late war battlewagons with humongous guns and you have some very unforgiving skies.
6) 'Ground Campaign : The way the ground war is modeled is quite simplistic..' Yup, vehicles are a kind of add-on. Little effort has been made to really find a role for them. The beta terrain has lots of V fields along the ridges between the countries, so there is at least some 'front line' ground war.
7) '..Naval aspects..' Just like the ground vehicles, they have no realistic role, just another diversion for game play. But in Scenarios they will kick butt, trust me. Flying a 1 hour mission and trapping a carrier landing with 3 kills is mucho cool.
ra
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LOL! go back to warbirds spitboy.
Hmm, thanks for the welcome. But if you don't mind, I believe I'll stay. My $30 is just as good as yours, and as far as I know, no where in the EULA did it say I couldn't speak my mind on the public boards, or have the audacity to question the mighty AKDeja, ruler of the AH boards.
Maybe you should stop to think for a few seconds before posting, AKDeja. It's attitude's like yours that give this place a non-friendly tone.
Why is it so hard to believe? Well.. someone analyzing something he seemingly hasn't tried. Or.. does the fact that he hasn't played since 1.05 came out mean he still is qualified to render an oppinion on bomber efficiency vs ships?
The whole thing is fishy. The fact that it is done seemingly anonymously makes it even more so.
And I ask again, why do you care? Does this affront, a rank newbie stating his rather well-stated opinion of the game, somehow sully you, an Aces High vet? Is it impossible that he actually DID read the boards for a while, then with 1.05 decide to play? If you look at the replies, up to yours, there was a lot of agreement with what he posted. Again - why the hell do you care? Agree or disagree with him, that I can understand. But looking for conspiracies around every bend?
The fact that a sim enthusiast who has been playing on-line sims for 4 years is just now trying AH out is strange.
No it ain't. Witness the surge in usage since 1.05. I bet it brought a lot of people out of the woodwork to finally give AH a shot. You should be welcoming these people into your community, not alientating them.
The fact that his two week evaluation seems incredibly information filled, considering the fact that the other pilots in the arena were not very nice.
It ain't just in the arena where the pilots are not very nice. Hint, hint.
Considering the fact that all of these are previously discussed issues... for wich he read but didn't have any comment.
He said he hadn't played enough then to comment. Look at your logic, AK. You are blasting him for voicing his opinion after giving the game a try on line. My lord, what would you have said if he gave his opinion without actually trying the game online? You contradict yourself.
The fact that he brings up his kill record 3 times to justify is honest dweeby opinion.. then says he doesn't like losing (no bias there eh?).. even pointing it out as a reason he couldn't possibly be an old player with a second account because of the record, despite the fact that I never mentioned anything in regards to a bad record in my post.
So his opinion is dweeby, because the mighty AKDeja doesn't agree? Feeling a little self-important, aren't ya? He only went to pains to protect his character after you called roadkill on him, unless you forgot.
Ohh.. my personal favorite:
quote:
I don`t know about you, but I make a point of informing myself before I go into a new Sim.
He makes a point of "informing himself" before going into a new sim... but doesn't ask one single question on the bbs prior to his post.
See my above statement. If you're gonna blast him for voicing his opinion after trying the game, what would you say to him if he tried to play in your little UBB playground without playing it? You're reaching. Sorry to say, I don't find it strange in the least that a person would follow the boards yet not participate actively until he signs on with an account. I did the same thing myself.
It just gets better and better.
Seems strange. Too strange. Your presence here doesn't lessen that one single bit spitboy.
What, you're accusing me of being buzzbait? Quick, someone call Mulder and Scully! Better yet, get Pyro to check our IPs. Geez, man, you need to get a grip. I posted a reply here because Buzz relates something I noted: the tone in the arenas and on these boards is dominated by a few self-absorbed people who tend to dictate the atmosphere. That atmosphere is often quite hostile, and this is a bad thing for AH.
I thank you for proving my point, AK.
Spitboy -SW-
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So spitboy wants to play....
My $30 is just as good as yours
And what id is that you are using these days? Anonymity is great isn't it?
[edit] apologies for this remark spitboy. I see you have your old ID back. I should have looked before commenting. [/edit]
no where in the EULA did it say I couldn't speak my mind on the public boards
re-read this very very very carefully. Does it only apply to you?
Does this affront, a rank newbie stating his rather well-stated opinion of the game, somehow sully you, an Aces High vet?
I question the rank newbie status for many reasons. And well-stated is one thing... educated is another. I'm sorry, but this rank newbie didn't get those impressions by playing for two weeks back in tour 11. Especially considering he didn't even fly a bomber on-line.
So.. my problem is that he is critiquing aspects of the game he really has no experience with. That makes it less valid and simply a re-hash of what he has read on this board.
If you look at the replies, up to yours, there was a lot of agreement with what he posted.
I don't disagree with some of what was posted. I simply don't like the false impressions given during the post. Using the "rank-newbie" status to the extreme, he seemingly expresses the obviousness of these game flaws. After all.. they are glaring to a rank newbie.
No it ain't. Witness the surge in usage since 1.05. I bet it brought a lot of people out of the woodwork to finally give AH a shot. You should be welcoming these people into your community, not alientating them.
How much have you played in the last year Spitboy? I can't help but notice you registered for the bbs some year and a half ago. What brought you over here?
Now.. why are you back all of the sudden? Do you believe the jump in numbers is because of new players or returning ones? People finally have heard of AH because it got a navy? Of the new people.. how many are 4 year experienced flight sim enthusiasts?
Yes it is.
You are blasting him for voicing his opinion after giving the game a try on line. My lord, what would you have said if he gave his opinion without actually trying the game online? You contradict yourself.
ok.. real slow for you spitboy. HE DID NOT FLY ANY BOMBERS ON-LINE... YET HE SHARED HIS VIEW ON THEM AS IF HE DID. HE DID NOT GIVE IT A TRY! I have no problem with anybody participating in a discussion... I just have problems with people doing it under false pretences.
He did not participate.. enquire or do anything in any forum on this bbs until he posted this evaluation. No questions in the training forum... no questions in the aircraft forum... nadda. So now, he comes in with is informed opinion derived from what? Experience?... ERRRRR! wrong answer. Qeustions?.....ERRRRR! wrong answer.
I've recently been flying WB off-line to keep my habbit satisfied. What I haven't done is go over to the AGW bbs and give an in-depth evaluation of Warbirds based on it. If I did... watch what the reaction would be. Don't pretend like it doesn't matter with anyone but me.
So his opinion is dweeby, because the mighty AKDeja doesn't agree? Feeling a little self-important, aren't ya? He only went to pains to protect his character after you called roadkill on him, unless you forgot.
Erm.. huh? Let me explain this really slowly for you again:
For some reason he insists he is a dweeb in 3 different places. This occurs in even later posts despite the fact that nobody brought it up. He even insists that this proves he can't be someone with an alternate ID because he's done so badly. Why should his record matter in any way shape or form? Why even point it out.. 3 times?
The only people I know where this makes any kind of difference are the ones that live for ultimate stats. Most of the rest of us don't care one way or the other. So... once again.. why does he bring it up 3 times?
If you're gonna blast him for voicing his opinion after trying the game, what would you say to him if he tried to play in your little UBB playground without playing it?
Here's a homework assignment spitboy:
use the search function and find where I've ever blasted anyone for asking a question. Any question.
Now.. tell me if there is a difference between someone saying he doesn't agree with someone's oppinion.. and someone actually starting up a thread exposing his oppinion to everyone. There is and you know it.
This gentleman did not respond to any of the cannon, gunnery, flight model, ship bombing or any other thread that has been going on for the last month. Instead, he started a thread stating all his observations on the game... er... even though he hasn't really flown a bomber or played the game since the navy was implimented.
What, you're accusing me of being buzzbait? Quick, someone call Mulder and Scully! Better yet, get Pyro to check our IPs.
Not at all. I have no idea who buzzbait is. I only know that you have not posted more than 3 posts in the last 2 months.. very few others this year. Someone else in this thread was in the same boat. Yet for some reason you come to buzz's defense. Hmmmmm.
Just too many coincidences these days. Just too many people taking up aliases. Just too many people acting under false pretences. Just too many people being fake.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 12-29-2000).]
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 12-29-2000).]
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A good post... going bad...?
Giving you the benefit of doubt Buzz,
There have been a few loud and arrogant folks who have ticked a few people off, and then have changed Ids numerous times. Some other folks take it personally and are on a witch hunt to uncover them. If you are unfortunate enough to sound a bit like them you become targeted. It's all part of our great atmosphere that you pointed out.
Anyway, you have a lot of good points.
However, if I have one pet peeve as far as this sim goes, it is those who criticize the bomber's gun and bomb accuracy without investing a fair amount of time flying bombers. Relatively, we have few bombers flying in this sim, for game-play purposes alone bombers need accuracy in bomber's bombs and guns. Bombers are easy to kill in this sim if you use a good approach and they have a poor K/D in this sim to prove it. Make smart fighter attacks and you can kill buffs at least 5 to 1. That sucks if you are the buff pilot; why would anyone want to fly for 45 minutes only to have a single fighter intercept you after a 10 minute climb and kill you? I'm not sure, but I am flying buffs less and less. We would never see bombers if they had the bomb accuracy of real WWII bombers.
I only saw one multi-engine enemy bomber last night, in hours of playing. It was a B-17 that I killed with a Zero... a slow-paper-mache-lousy-guns-Zero (and the B-17's gunner was well-known, experienced, and good).
My point is that I agree with AK Dejavu's point of view regarding the above points.
I also can see why he would think you are fishguy. (Personally I don't care what fishboy is doing.)
eskimo
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I didn't really think it would be a mental leap, AK, but if you must know, my ID in game is "spitboy", much like BuzzBait, who's ID is "buzzbait". Like the saying goes, you oughta look next time, before you leap to a wrong conclusion.
I'm not gonna line-by-line you, since you are all over the map trying to justify your behavior, and are at times contradictory. I'll try to sum up your opinion, and you tell me if I hit the mark:
You don't like it when people post under false pretenses, and you don't like when people post about things without the experience to back it up.
That fair? Reading through your novel, those seem to be the two recurring themes. OK, first, you haven't got anything to back up your claim that he's posting under false pretenses, nor have you raised a good reason for him to do so. So again I ask, and listen carefully, why do you care? If he is posing, there's no real harm. His points are valid. Some discussion of them is a good thing. If he's not, you've just alienated a new player. In the sum total, I'd say it's better to give someone like that the benefit of the doubt, rather than take an abusive tone and risk alienating a customer.
Second, as to the "don't comment if you don't got the experience". Well, this one is a bit more valid, but again, what we have here is an apparently enthusiastic new customer, who's taken the time to research the sim prior to signing up. He's spent a tour online, according to his stats, and obviously given AH a fair shake. He's done 200 sorties.
To me, that sounds like enough experience to weigh in with some opinions, even if some are anecdotal. But you don't. OK, then tell us, AK, what level of experience is necessary to comment on AH? You harp on his bomber experience and cry Eureka! since he hasn't flown a bomber in the main. However, he's killed 20, and said he's flown in H2H. Same with the N1K and Chog, which he says he's flown in H2H. Seems like he prolly has enough experience in knowing what it takes to down a bomber.
All in all, his rationale and explanations make sense to me. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt? Why risk alienating a new player, and contributing to the overall negative tone of these boards? I don't see the gain, here.
What I see is that you like to be the center of attention. You like to raise a stink over something and start a fight, then control the fracas by painting anyone who raises a contrary opinion as anti-AH, with a standard "leave if you don't like it" rejoinder. Like "go back to Warbirds spitboy", after I merely asked why you were so concerned about this guy.
How much have you played in the last year Spitboy? I can't help but notice you registered for the bbs some year and a half ago. What brought you over here? Now.. why are you back all of the sudden?
I've followed AH's boards since it's announcement. I toyed with AH offline since about 5 months ago when I had a system that could handle it - not religiously, but enough to see the progress of the sim. At the time, it didn't impress me enough to sign up. I signed up for a trial account about 3 months ago and flew online a few times to try out 1.04, I think it was. Again, better, but not enough to spur me on. When 1.05 came out, I again downloaded it, tried it offline for a few hours, and liked what I saw. So I signed up to give it a shot online. I didn't want to open another trial account, cause I thought that was cheesy and not fair to HTC. If it turns out I don't have fun, I'll cancel my account.
Sorry if it pierces any delusions you have that my motivation is to somehow sully Aces High. I don't have much time these days to fly, and only fly in S3s over yonder in brand W. The simple truth is, 1.05 looked pretty good, and it spurred me into ponying up the dollars to give it a fair shake out. If you have a problem with me creating an account and giving HTC $29.95 a month to try out his sim, well, I'm sorry. I don't think HTC minds the extra income.
But thanks for the warm welcome, AK. Didn't really expect this kind of reception for asking you a simple question. Hell, Rip and I have had harsh enough words in the past that I thought he'd switch sides when I signed on, but he was a gentleman and we flew side by side for a while the other night. Salute, Rip, thanks for making me feel welcome (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Do you believe the jump in numbers is because of new players or returning ones? People finally have heard of AH because it got a navy?
Quite simply, a combination of both. This is the biggest jump AH has seen in its life. I tend to believe in Occam's Razor. The simplest solution that fits the evidence. 1.05 was a big and highly anticipated move for AH. There's lots of things here that are totally new to the online flight simmer. So it seems quite logical that this build might entice a number of folks to try it out for the first time, and bring back some folks who'd left for staleness.
The alternative that you seem to espose is that buzzbait has gone to great lengths to create himself a new identity, build up some sorties and a bad record, and then post a pretty fair and objective synopsis of his opinions about AH. All for some murky alterior motive which you do not specify, and quite frankly, doesn't make sense. If he'd slammed AH, I could see where you might be doubting of his intentions. But he didn't - as many have said, his opinions were fair and objective. Some points are open to disagreement, which is the norm.
Give it a rest, already. Let the man have his opinions - they don't hurt you, and he obviously has some support amongst the player base for them.
Spitboy -SW-
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Spitboy,
re-read buzz's posts in this thread.
He has played before. As far back as beta. Something he totally neglegted to mention. Instead chosing to stress what a total newbie-dweeb he is.
As for the mistake about your ID.. I apologized well before your post. I'll apologize again. If you seem to think that it makes buzz all the more genuine.. then we'll talk about leaps in logic.
As far as experience to comment goes.. that really isn't the point. One can quickly decide how much he does or doesn't like something. Now.. how much experience is required before someone is presumptuous enough to suggest how it should be changed? I think a tad bit more than what was shown.
And as far as my reversing on myself.. you have a very good point. First I say he has more experience than he is letting on.. then I say he doesn't have enough to comment. Either way.. he neglected to mention a few things.
And as far as this:
When 1.05 came out, I again downloaded it, tried it offline for a few hours, and liked what I saw. So I signed up to give it a shot online. I didn't want to open another trial account, cause I thought that was cheesy and not fair to HTC. If it turns out I don't have fun, I'll cancel my account.
Sorry if it pierces any delusions you have that my motivation is to somehow sully Aces High. I don't have much time these days to fly, and only fly in S3s over yonder in brand W. The simple truth is, 1.05 looked pretty good, and it spurred me into ponying up the dollars to give it a fair shake out.
That is exactly why I thought you were here. I had no illusions otherwise. Now.. is it unreasonable to assume that the sudden surge isn't a result of people that were somewhat bored with AH finding something to get excited and get on-line about? The stats are about people on-line.. not new accounts.
Also, when you came back.. did you declare yourself a newbie to the game?
I may be paranoid.. but it doesn't mean that people aren't watching me.
AKDejaVu
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I think buzz should be saluted for taking the time to write the longest trolls ever seen.
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Whatever all the other crap - Good to hear yer in AH Spitboy!! Look me up in the MA (hope yer flyin' fer the good guys, Bish - of course).
Would love to wing with ya bud!
Erh.... as to all the other crap, it's a pointless no-win.
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Nash, I'm flying for the green side. Does that help? <G> Hehe, I think I'm flying Bish. Just started flying where the host dumped me. Never thought I'd say this, but Pyro, get the MA up, I wanna fly (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
AK, I understand your position better. Can't say I agree completely, but let's just agree to disagree on those points we differ on. It's not up to me to set the tone on the boards and in the arenas - it's up to you vets who've been here and form the core of the community. That's the main thing I was trying to point out.
No, I didn't declare myself a newbie to AH, though I consider myself one. I think there's a distinction to being a newbie to AH and a newbie to the MA. I'm definetely a newbie to the MA, and pretty much a dweeb. Lemme log some hours and get some rudder pedals, so I can fly like I'm used to, and maybe I won't be a dweeb anymore (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Can't wait til CH comes out with their USB line. This TM Afterburner setup ain't bad. Nice and solid, good throw. But not near enough buttons and hats. After flying for 5 years with a full CH suite, it's hard to do well with anything else (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Spitboy -SW-
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AKDejaVu,
Get off your high horse, man.
i just finished my free two weeks, and trying to persuade the missus to spend $30 a month on this beaute!
I found out about AH bout 3 months ago form a friend, altohugh i didn't get it downloaded for a while i kept a beady eye on the BB for hints/tips and advice to get me started.Is this what you do to all newbies (alleged newbies,even) if you do i think you should grow up.The guy (no matter who he is
/was) was just putting in his input,he, or anybody else didn't want a flame war just beacuse he is interested in the game.
Give the guy a break!
Oh, and if you want ball me out too,or accuse me of being Nath you cqn talk to my hand cos i ain't interested in you or your over-inflated "Oi Newbie Shut up" attitude I will carry on playing H2H till i get "she who must be obeyed" to part with some cash.
To All I salute,I'm in the presence of some fantastic guys in here.
as my old mum used to say AKDejaVu "if you haven't got anything nice to say don't say anything"
I'll leave it there, Thanks for letting me in guys!!
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PapaEcho
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"Pull the pin and count to what??"
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my old mum used to say AKDejaVu "if you haven't got anything nice to say don't say anything"
And your positive contribition to this thread was....? Oh.. this must only apply to other people. Or wait.. maybe add "unless you know you're right" to the end of that.
As for jumping on newbies... I don't do that. This was no newbie. It was pointed out and it was admitted. Don't like the pretense at all.
As for your input.. its a little late in the thread to be jumping in all morally superior... shoulda taken your mom's advice.
AKDejaVu
PS.. you might want to ad your game-id to that sig. Makes your claim to being a participant a little more valid.
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 12-30-2000).]
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I think buzz should be saluted for taking the time to write the longest trolls ever seen.
Irony is him having an id named after a fishing lure.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by Mickey1992:
Unfortunately the rude 10 players out of 150 are the ones that fill up 80% of the open channel.
No, Funked and I are using 5% at Least and we're Never Rude ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
PS: Good post Buzz !
Saw
[This message has been edited by Saintaw (edited 12-30-2000).]
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AKDejaVu,
That is my game id,
gees,you can see past your own arrogance!
and as for being morally superior??!!
I didn't mean to upset the apple cart man,
i was addind my opinion which in the free world i think i am entitled.
Its people like you that make places like this, so squeaky and negative.
Community, huh?
enuf said, and don't bother with a witty retort AKDejaVu I'm no longer interested in talking to you. look AKDejaVu MY GAME ID.:EEK:
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PapaEcho
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"Pull the pin and count to what??"
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What you think i'm NATH now as well.!
LOL you are something else AKDejaVu.
You aren't a lawyer are you?
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PapaEcho
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"Pull the pin and count to what??"
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I think someone has a crush on Nath!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Deja, do you know his age? you could well go to jail for this.
Stop screwing a dead potato. Have problems with the Buzz-man? email him and stop trolling around. You are beginning to remind me of Nath, you are acting just like him.
Good bye.
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Irony is him having an id named after a fishing lure.
No DejaVu.... irony is you having an id named after an illusion of having previously experienced something actually being encountered for the first time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Boy, you set yourself up for that one, didn't you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 12-30-2000).]
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Hmm, I think this very long and interesting thread hasn't resolved many issues in AH, but it has reinforced opinions formed about some things (some folks character, for one)
Oh and Btw, stop blaming the foul-mouthed,uncivilized behavior on the free 2 week accounts, the most foul folks in the MA have been there a long time
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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Well... Gotta agree with akdeja.. something very fishy bout ol buzz. At the very least this guy has been "lurking" for a long time, having read so many threads that go back so long and distilling em.... He certainly doesn't seem like a shy retiring newbie to me. If heis a newbie with this much "research" then he is simply a parot or a professor. he doesn't know what he is talking about... How could he? How many bombers has he shot down? I have been doing this for quite some time now and have shot down dozens of bombers.... I don't know what the damage i did was or what really was happening..... How does he? I have flown Hogs and flown against hogs and niks hundreds of times and have NEVER done or seen done what he describes. Not saying it never happened to somebody somewhere but.... It sure takes more than a couple of weeks to have all these things happen to you and sort em out.
Claim your a newbie and then complain right at the first about how mean all the bad people are before you post... It's natural to try to be nice to the new guy and nobody (cept mean ol deja) wants to be a bad guy...
As for ol buzz's opinions.... Distil all the posts on every subject and you will see that he simply goes with the majority opinion in every case. Pretends (how would he know?) it is his. He only steps in it when he makes the assumption that all the whining about niks and Chogs means the majority hate em.
Oh, buzz.... I would lighten up on using Brown as a source... He was after all one man with one mans opinion. Like most... Everyone has a plane that suits him best or that he just can't get into. Nice reference to rivets and wing juncture on the Hog tho... add pilot compartment setback and for roll, aileron boost. Feel free to share any of your extensive WWII research with the rest of us tho as we all have done a tiny bit ourselves and will have the work (and have opinions on the work) you are referencing.
lazs
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That is my game id,
Just that it doesn't show up on the score page for any of the last 5 tours. When did you do your free two week trial?
gees,you can see past your own arrogance!
Its difficult. At times like this it gets lost in the crowd.
What you think i'm NATH now as well.!
Where did I say this? I'm curious as to why you brought it up. Almost seems as if someone is mixing up alternate egos.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 12-30-2000).]
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No DejaVu.... irony is you having an id named after an illusion of having previously experienced something actually being encountered for the first time
From buzzbait:
During the original ACES HIGH Beta, I flew for 3 weeks at the end of the Beta. I flew the B17 many times and got many kills.
No jekyll. Its not his first time. Just seems a tad bit strange that someone that left the game after 3 weeks some time ago didn't offer any input back then.. and after a year the bbs is still a great mystery to him. Also.. it was under a different ID.
Just bacause I'm paranoid... doesn't mean people aren't watching.
AKDejaVu
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Paranoid ABOUT WHAT?! whos WATCHING YOU?! how does this situation affect you PERSONALLY.
You are just a troll. You are the same level as Nath-BDP.
Bye.
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Fat DRUNK Bastards.
Nothing feels sweeter than facing a powerful enemy 1 on 1, the battle is tough, but you emerge victorious. As he types <S>!!! on channel one, you open fire on his chute.
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Sure animal.. now ask yourself why you posted? My posting does not really affect you at all.
Why would you care what I post? Why would I care what someone else posts?
Apply the same answer to both questions.
AKDejaVu
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I wonder how many new guys read this BBS without ever posting.
And I wonder how many are reading this thread and thinking, "Boy, these guys are friendly to newbies, aren't they?"
AK, Lazs... if you're absolutely, positively CERTAIN that buzz is someone else, then go ahead. If not, you're not doing this game any favours at the moment ;(
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
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Ask yourself this jekyll... he played in beta days. Nobody named "buzzkill" shows up in the scores then.
He was somebody else.
AKDejaVu
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Sure animal.. now ask yourself why you posted? My posting does not really affect you at all. - Deja
And how does Buzz's post really affect YOU, Deja?
Let's just assume for the sake of argument, that everything yer sensing about Buzz - his identity, his intentions - is absolutely true.
So what? At best, you've uhm... outted somebody...I guess... At worst, you've insulted someone genuinely new to our community, and who knows how many other people who now may be reluctant to post their ideas/opinions on this board.
I'm just not sure this little inquisition was worth it.
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 12-30-2000).]
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As for what the newbies think... I sure hope it is "that AKDejaVu sure can be an amazinhunk". Basically, it won't be anything most of the rest of the bbs doesn't already know.
I'd hope they'd know enough to see that there will be different personalities in each and everry game they play in. If they have played ANY on-line game.. they will already know this.
They will also know that when you present an opinion, you'd better be straight up. Avoid the hidden inuendo.. the pseudonyms... the anonymity of it all. Honest opinion after an honest assesment.
Call me what you want... you can actually even e-mail it to me if you'd like. My e-mail is attatched to my handle... the exact same as it has been for every post I've made on every bbs I've ever posted on. Sure I say things people may not want to hear... but I don't attempt to ghost write it in when I do it. And I don't feel the need to create more accounts/characters to support my own oppinion.
As for the arena... I've never accused someone of hacking. I've never accused someone of being an HO dweeb. I've never accused someone of killing me in an inapropriate manner. I've never taunted anyone exepted in taunt rebutle. I've never criticized someone for the plane they were flying.
I wonder how many of those that criticized my response in this thread can say the same thing about their actions in the arena.
AKDejaVu
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Well nash.. you see..
JEKYLL ADDRESSED THE POST DIRECTLY TO ME.
Now.. what does that have to do with you? You just spotted what you thought was an easy target and decided to jump on his 6 too?
So what? At best, you've uhm... outted somebody...I guess... At worst, you've insulted someone genuinely new to our community, and who knows how many other people who now may be reluctant to post their ideas/opinions on this board.
And this affects you how? You didn't like what I had to say.. so you chose to respond. I didn't like what was posted initially and I responded.
If I'm wrong.. someone feels insulted by one member on a bbs, someone he has never seen on-line. So what? Its ok for certain people to insult certain people.. but only if certain people deem that the certain people really deserve it?
I ask for honesty in the posts. The initial one i the thread.. yours... mine.. everyone's.
If you are new, you can say anything and we have to be nice to you because we don't want you to go away. If you are new, we must assume you to be genuine and honest or else we can be labled an amazinhunk.
I ask for accountability for actions. I'm not going to log on tomorrow with a different handle and sit back and be nice to everyone and criticize others that aren't... in some mad attempt to show that wasn't really me talking before.. it was only a personna. What you see is what you get. What I type is what I am accountable for. What I type everyone can go back and say "but you said this..." if they chose.. because I will not hide from the things I've said.
I have to say I'd like to see more of that. If you wish to change.. don't resort to a new ID. Just change. If you feel the need to stop be labled "arrogant".. then stop bragging about yourself. No need to fire up a new id declaring "I am not an arrogant person.. just wanted to get that out of the way from the start".
If someone says your criticism of the game is out of line.. and may have been somewhat listened to if you hadn't been yelling it... don't come back with a different handle and say it softly. That's dishonest. That's cheating the rest of the community.
AKDejaVu
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AK, your combative, suspicious tone DOES affect people. It affects every newbie who reads these boards, and every person who feels the tone of the arena and the UBB is a bit on the harsh side. It validates it, and fosters it.
Again, I ask, why not give this guy the benefit of the doubt? What has he done to harm AH, or you? Even if you're right, and he's an old-timer, so what? You have not given a valid response to that other than "I don't like it when folks post under false pretenses." And I point out again, that you have not even come close to proving his pretenses were false.
So what you've done is take your paranoid suspicions, castigate a person who posted some thought-provoking information to germinate discussion, and then turn this into a circus, or worse, a witch hunt where there's probably no witches anyway.
The negatives to what you're doing far outweigh any positives to the community. So, why do it?
Spitboy -SW-
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"...that AKDejaVu sure can be an amazinhunk...".
Well it took you about 20 posts in one thread..but you finally got something right.
You did ask for "honesty in posts". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bowser
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Wow.. excellent input bowser. Of course.. in all honesty it applies to you too... at least if this is your only contribution to this whole thread.
AKDejaVu
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Nice to meet you Deja! LOL
OK, I'm putting this little episode down to the fact that your paranoid and leav it there. I do hope in the future, I can post on the BB without the fear of Deja in his paranoid wonderland steaming in and chasin' me out of town!!.
BTW, Deja i haven't actually subscribed as i said in a previous post I'm trying to pursuade "Head Office(my lovely wife)" that it is a good financial move!(lol could take sometime!!),so you won't see my scores in any tours.
I am here though!!
Buzz,or whoever you are don't be afraid to post cos od ol' Deja.He just wants to see clarity in the players (especially newbies) that mention the fact he was around during the beta.(oops,you made your bed, now blah blah blah)
Good hunting guys see ya in the MA very soon
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PapaEcho
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"Pull the pin and count to what??"
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Well papa.. if you tried it, there is a score. Remember when you said:
i just finished my free two weeks
???
AKDejaVu
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Yeah like to explain that,
My friend got me hooked on this game but considering i have just about the min. specs for the game and a supposed 56k modem that only runs at 33.8 i had a few connection problems.
So i couldn't really get in the MA therefore no real scores.
OH BTW, I would like to apologisea bout sticking my oar in earlier on in the thread, I had no real business talking like that,especially at a man of your caliber (no j/k) you been here longer than me, I freely admit i ain't no good at this game but i have very much fun playing, to me , thats all that counts.
*stands sharply to attention*
*Salute*
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PapaEcho
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"Pull the pin and count to what??"
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Nobody named "buzzkill" shows up in the scores then.
Hmmm excellent point AK. Could it possibly be because his handle is "buzzbait" ?
Or maybe, just maybe he's changed his handle. OK is there something suspicious about that? I notice you are now flying as AKDjv. No record of that handle in tours 10 or 11 (haven't bothered to go back further than that).
Is there something suspicious about you changing handles AK? C'mon ... what is it you're not telling us? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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=357th Pony Express=
Aces High Training Corps
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Well I went all the way back to tour 5 and still couldn't find him or buzzbait, wierd.
Still,I would just like to say thank you to AK for my first flame war ( I think thats what it is considering there were subtle insults in there, somewhere)
*bows* AK you truly are suspicious, paranoid , dillusional if you will.
Get Help man you need it!!!
LOL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
*stands sharply to attention*
*salute*
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PapaEcho
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"Pull the pin and count to what??"
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Hmm. Well, here I was thinking of changing to AH after the latest public relations screwup at WB... So I come over here for a looksee at the latest news....
Nope. Too many amazinhunks like Dejavu around. I'll stick to where I was... the players are friendlier [and I never thought I would say that].
kamel.
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I agree with so much of what you said I wont post my minor differences. I think my biggest gripe is the "bad apple". I played AW for over 3 yrs. Generally I would say it had more of a community. BUT! I do also remember my 1st day online in AW very well. I SUCKED in spades. The real fun part about it was I actually had guys on my team shooting me down because it was easy! NO KIDDING! That was in AW1 on AOL. Then I went to GS for AW2 and 3. I got much better with time and joined a squad and that's when I started seeing the community (in AW3). I would actually allow new ENEMY pilots to practice on me to get the basic dog fighting down. I wanted them to have fun with the game unlike my 1st experience with it. I'm terrible about getting back to players after a good fight because I'm a very poor typist and I have to have my keyboard in a weird position on my desk. So I'm not to worried about it if no one gets back to me after a good fight. I figure their in battle or can't type fast like me or just mad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif). It really doesn't matter. What matters is the crappy attitude that gets vented on here by to many. Not a majority by any means but enough. All most all of your comments on the "reality" of the game I agree with. Gun camera footage generally shows the planes very close before shooting. I think a lot of the things your talking about may be added later (I hope).
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geeze guys... who cares if the guy is a newbie or not. When I was on for two weeks I posted my opinion of what I thought was wrong with the game. I stuck with one thing that I had tested. It was not a (cough) popular opinion at the time. I expected the reaction I got and accepted it. I was, after all, giving an opinion that went against the basic FM of the game and hence affected just about everything.
This guy jumps on the CHog and nikki bandwagon and gunnery bandwagon with little or no experience or testing. He claims to be a WWII aficianado and IMO, pontificates. He claims to have seen things that are still controvesial to guys with 100 times his hours and he changes his "newbie" story in later posts. He didn't ask for help or understanding. He merely distilled and then parroted a lot of posts and then snuck in a few zingers. He took a pretty large bite for a newbie huh?
kamel.... LOL, you weren't scared of posting to my posts in WB why would you be frieghtened in here?
lazs
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Nice post Buzzbait . <S> Now I don't take the time to do that in the MA so here it is for ya (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Welcome all new and returning vets !
Sim or game it is getting better and better IMO like you all stated . Hope u all stay and have fun .
cheers spro
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air_rules = Play fair ....Don't worry about points......Keep a sense of humor......Drink Jim Beam......and don't let the fediddlein cat walk on the keyboard.......!!!
(http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1589/temp/airsprogif.gif)
[This message has been edited by airspro (edited 12-31-2000).]
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Hmmm excellent point AK. Could it possibly be because his handle is "buzzbait" ?
Or maybe, just maybe he's changed his handle. OK is there something suspicious about that? I notice you are now flying as AKDjv. No record of that handle in tours 10 or 11 (haven't bothered to go back further than that).
Was waiting for this one Jekyll. I was waiting for you to show yourself to be a complete idiot.
OK.. lets try this one jekyll. When you close an account and start it back up, you cannont use the same id. Not until HTC clears all the old IDs out of the log. That was done some time ago (like tour 4) and allows people like Spitboy to come in with their old ID. If you were to cancel your account and come back next week, you'd have to change it.
Now.. if you were to do that... you could do two things:
1. Come back and tell people you had to change your id because of the account situation.
2. Come back and pretend you never played the game before at all.
Do you see any difference between the two jekyll? Do you see why your little jump in logic was simply idiotic?
If you don't.. then you are simply a waste of time.
AKDejaVu
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To those criticizing my attitude here and comparing it to the game.
You need to play this game more often.
You seem to think that my being critical of someone for stating his oppinion of this game under dubious circumstances is much worse than anyone sitting back and criticizing the game.. over.. and over.. and over.. and over.
Sorry, but I don't agree. The criticism on this board has reached an all time high. I'm sure you'd like to point a finger at me and say its because of people like me.. but find the time I started a "chog" thread... or a "uber" thread... or a "dweeb" thread.. or a "I quit if you don't".. thread.
I played for two hours last night and saw nothing but constant whining on channel one and constant bickering back and forth. I don't mean occasional... I mean CONSTANT. Still the same stupid arguments "Ack is porked", "PT boat dweeb" "Chog dweeb" "need 20mm to feel like a man". Simply amazing.
Yet some playing then, feel it is more important to immediately leave the game when the notice my ID to come back here and tell me once again how much I'm ruining this game for newbies.
sheesh.
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WOW. For the first time on this board, I have come across a post that gives me a personal reason to let my respect for one of the members drop. And drop significantly. During my 2 weeks, in Tour 5 I noticed many problems and elements of AH that are similar or identical to what buzz brought up.Do you have a learning disability AK? Do you use your inability to absorb information as a standard?
I had more than enough info to do exactly as buzz did at that point. I chose not to. And DAMN am I glad I didn't! I can't believe this! Who cares if he isn't a total newbie? I could refer my record in Tour 5 when posting this. Maybe you could say that I wasn't a newbie, because my record is a tad better than average for a 2 week player in 1.02 and 1.03.
If he isn't "straight up" as you put it, how about this: what ulterior motive could he POSSIBLY have for this!? If he had it in for anybody or anything, why would he do it this way. According to you, he went to a lot of trouble just to give some opinions. As to them being opinions held by the majority... it's called a "majority" because most people fall into it. Buzz must be one of them. Oh no! The conformity!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
Not having heard about it for two years, and now being "choosing a strange time to show up." What the hell are you saying? That's BS, and paranoid BS besides.
Anyway, I'm done. But allow me one parting comment: Gee, AKDejaVu sure can be an amazinhunk.
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What really cracks me up about this whole thing, is that I'm am the one being blamed for the first statment in regards to the community. Ironically, I was not flying on-line when this individual was. I had an account problem and didn't start it up until after Christmas because of the financial scene. I wonder what he based that assesment on?
And ispar, I never said buzz was "choosing a strange time to show up". Not once. I said his post was strange. Turns out he had played the game before.. he admitted as much. Why that matters is can best be summed up by what lazs said above.
Now.. if your only contribution to this thread is to call me an amazinhunk.. well.. once again I have to honestly say you need to be labeled likewise.
AKDejaVu
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kamel, ispar:
Every BBS community has it's village idiots, and Akdejavu fills the job nicely here at AH (Ram fills in on his days off). (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Kamel, if you fly WBs, you know AGW has it's share of these types, but that wouldn't stop me flying WBs if I chose to do so.
To slam AH because of one individual's idiocy, isn't being fair to the majority, who share your disdain for these types.
bowser
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On both this board and the arena.. it never ceases to amaze me how many people love to jump on the 6 of a wounded plane.. no matter how many others are already there. Yeah.. its me that is ruining things.
Every BBS community has it's village idiots, and Akdejavu fills the job nicely here at AH (Ram fills in on his days off).
I wonder how many village idiots actually believe it to be someone else in the village.
Let me ask you this question Bowser... what if RAM had written this post? How do you know he didn't? Would it matter that it was him?
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 12-31-2000).]
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You know, I didn't say you were an amazinhunk AK. I did say that your attitude defies a better description at this time. I'm sorry to have said what I did. I really am not adding anything more to this topic, but the this discussion disgusts me. If indeed buzz is being dishonest, it won't affect anything, either the game or you personally. I personally think that your approach to buzz was groundlessly accusatory and abysmally disrespectful. No matter our opinions, we all really should have shut the hell up before this topic degenerated into name calling and accusatory state it is in.
Oh... if anyone wants the last word, go ahead. I'm not going to try to refute anything. It would really be a lot better if this topic were just to die, wouldn't it?
ispar
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I personally think that your approach to buzz was groundlessly accusatory and abysmally disrespectful.
I think it is abysmally disrespectful to the entire community to come in and do any of these things:
1. Create misconceptions about your identity for the sake of supporting your argument.
2. Suggest changes be made to things without actually trying them.
This individual did one of the two above. That's a given.
I've never respected anyone who's lied in the first sentance of his first post.
AKDejaVu
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"...On both this board and the arena.. it never ceases to amaze me how many people love to jump on the 6 of a wounded plane.."
I would liken it to a manouever kill, we didn't have to do anything, you flew yourself into the ground.
I promise...that's it from me also. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
bowser
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Methinks AK's recent posts are a perfect example of the aphorism, "There are no defensive moves, only increasingly desperate offensive ones". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Finished with the insults now AK? BTW congrats WRT Kamel. A good flier, a member of one of the largest squads in WB. You done real good AK.
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Methinks AK's recent posts are a perfect example of the aphorism, "There are no defensive moves, only increasingly desperate offensive ones".
Of course.. this is more accurate than I'd like to admit. But then.. it doesn't stop you from getting that last kick in does it?
Finished with the insults now AK? BTW congrats WRT Kamel. A good flier, a member of one of the largest squads in WB. You done real good AK.
Actually.. its AKDejaVu. My view is mine and mine alone. I haven't seen anyone else from the AKs chime in here to make it an official stanse.
As for Kamel.. well.. I'm sorry that he is so light-skinned as to believe that one person dictates the entire course of actions for a community. I really wonder who are the "too many amazinhunks like me" he was reffering too?
Gotta say.. that was just a bit too contrived.
AKDejaVu
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Buzzbait, your observations are the same as those that most of us have when they first start AH . And I agree with them, sadly AH is full of Akdejavus .
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Woah, I had no idea I was being spoken about behind me back, I never bothered to read this thread, but I was bored so I thought I'd look it over. I see people are still obsessed with 'uncovering' my identity--how flattering. I would have never thought I'd be this important to someone over the net, but for people like DejaVu, who, this may be harsh--suck at Aces High and come here to try and gain some attention they couldn't possibly obtain through being good at the game. Keep up the worship Deja, I loath in it.
You should know if I were to make another handle I certainly wouldn't use such a
tastless one such as 'BuzzBait'. You ought to know better than that, sonny.
Animal... you still have a problem with me? I thought you were the better person by not talking about someone behind their back, but now you're just the same as deja.
[This message has been edited by Nath-BDP (edited 12-31-2000).]
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This will do it for me on this one... so those that want to get the last kicks in will be kicking a lifeless corpse.. but don't let that stop you.
Newbies coming to this game, forum and community...
You are all welcome participants. If any of you have asked questions on-line or otherwise (and I've seen it) I've answered your questions each and every time. As a rule, in the MA there is a race to handle most questions. 3 or 4 replies each time.
When you do come here, you are amongst people that have hundreds to thousands of hours of stick time on this game. Guess what.. that is in combination with many other flight sims. One of the funniest (and most common) things we hear from newbies is "I'll get it.. I have x years of flight sim experience". A large majority of the players here have that kind of experience. A large majority have more experience than that.
There is no need to try to dazzle us with your insightfulness. There is no need to prove your aircraft performance knowledge whenever possible. There is no need to try to impress us with your flight time in sims. Simply participate. No need to take control here or in the arena. No need to scream "DO WHAT I SAY" when flying. No need to come in here and give a full-blown game evaluation based on things you haven't really tried yet.
You'll find the community extremely receptive to those that aren't trying to force themselves in. You'll find the majority of the people both here and on-line are good people that love the game and are more than willing to help you out... providing you aren't forcing yourself on them. Basically, be nice and the sentiment will bee returned in spades.
Does the game have problems? Yes it does. Are these problems that you are going to come in here and solve in your first week? No they aren't. Ease in.. go slow.. enjoy the ride.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 12-31-2000).]
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Some good points.
Perhaps some will be looked at more closely by HT.
To me it is irrelevant whether Buzz is who he says he is, or that he has only summed up points others has made. My only interest was what he had to say. If you are like AK, and can't seem to get around it..please build a bridge and get over it.
-tronski-
486 Sqn (NZ) "Hiwa Hau Maka"
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akdeja... you are welcome to post in any thread i am involved in.... you seem to divert a lot of fire. In that spirit.... you would make a great wingman for me.
Look, If the guy is a "two week wonder" then he is misrepresenting himself as he later shows... If, as he says, he has lurked for a long time on the board then, his "observations" are not really observations so much as, at best, parroting and distilling what he has read or... at worst, pontificating. Harmless enough in any case. I will go further and say that in "two weeks" he has not, can not have, seen the kinds of things he claims to have observed like B17 wing problems and niki and hog energy retention problems. especially to the detail and exaggerated extent he claims.
I don't care who he is. I don't care who anyone is but it is interesting to find that I have played in other sims with someone who now has a different handle. I think changing your handle in the middle of a sim (a la ram) because you have made such a complete fool of yourself is.... womanly. I think I probly have a right to speak in this regard? I think "leaving forever" in a huff posts are the funniest posts on these boards. I think worrying about your score or anyone elses is laughable since you have no idea what that person is trying to do.
Oh, kamel is not a shy man. For instance, he has never had any problem standing up to mean ol lazs... I don't think akdeja scarred him off. If he isn't playing he has his own reasons.
And at the risk of being a hypocrite... pontificating pisses me off.
lazs
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We now return you to your regularly scheduled
CHOG squeak session (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
(Pzvg never changes his handle,or his opinion,I do however, change my underwear)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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S! Buzz. Thks for your post. Really lack of constructive non-whining posts around here lately. Besides that, It was enlightening about some of the characters around here.
I am of the opinion that a vast majority of players are not so rude and ill mannered.
Pepe.
P.S.: (Just to return to the scheduled CHog whineing season (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) pzvg ) DEATH TO QUAKEGIRLS! (http://cwm.ragesofsanity.com/s/geno/c4.gif)
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I'm all for realism but wonder how many would stay around if any of the following were modeled 100%
1. Torque factor of Corsairs
2. Stall/Spin characteristics of 190's
3. Landing instability of 109's
Any of these factors are well documented as being features which regularly killed many pilots during WWII and yet almost everybone in here is able to pretty much handle any of these after an hour or so. Let's not fool ourselves, this is a game and there a limits as to the realism due I suppose by the desire to keep it commercially viable. If they make it so that the minute you apply power in a corsair the sucka kills you the only people able to handle flying in here will be real world pilots with lots of complex airplane experience.
Beeg
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Beeg touches on HTC philosophy that I accept, Realism with gameplay in mind.
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Exactly, Rip.
Buzzbait, HTC has decided to make some compromises for gameplay's sake. It's up to you whether or not you want to pay to play with those compromises. I've had my share of gripes in the past about some historical inaccuracies, but in the end I agree that some compromises have to be made.
As far as the lack of <S>'s and S!'s, I agree. But as Fatty first said, it's the small vocal minority who pollute the open channel with their acidic drivel. Don't be afraid to let the S!'s fly as needed. Most of the guys flying AH are silent, upstanding folk.
AKDejavu, I agree that there are too many whiny posts about what is wrong with AH, but at the sametime I feel compelled to defend Buzzbait. He gave his opinions on a BBS that exists for the purpose of exchanging ideas and opinions. And whether he really is Nath in disguise is irrelavent to me. Nath, IMHO, has made himself persona non gratta on this BBS. Maybe he realized this and is trying to find a way to change his attitude and start fresh as a decent person. If this is the case, and IF this is his way of doing so....
What's the problem?
As for me, I'm happy to debate any issue with anyone, regardless of what identity they are hiding behind. I stick to the issues. Your focus on the poster's motive and persona, rather than on what their opinions are, seems to me a waste of time.