Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on April 28, 2004, 11:04:58 AM
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So I am listening to the radio and they are playing commercials saying to vote for some proposition that would tax the Indian Casino profits 25% it would be over 2 billion for California.
I say go for it.
What do you guys think? Plus anyone know what the prop number is?
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It is the same all over the country, the Indians can not be taxed by the states as they refer to their treaties of the 1800's...
I disagree, but it has been discussed over and over, and plain and simply is a crock of crap.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
It is the same all over the country, the Indians can not be taxed by the states as they refer to their treaties of the 1800's...
I disagree, but it has been discussed over and over, and plain and simply is a crock of crap.
Actually the "treaty" allowing California Indians autonomy over their casino operations was agreed to in 95-96 (with Grey Davis as Governor), not 100+ years ago.
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The add mentioned several other states that were taxing casinos?
Interesting though.
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Gray Davis screwed us out of Indian tax money as well???? That guy sucked!!
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GTO, other States made deals with Indian gaming intrests giving the States up to 25% of the Casino's net, but those are all voluntary contributions. Ah-nold is negotiating for a percentage of the Casino's take right now, but remember, Indian Lands are soverign and a vote to tax Indian Casinos is no more legal than if California voted to tax Oregon. A judge would rule it void in about five minutes.
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They could alaways set up tolls on the roads going into and out of the reservations.
They oughta tax religious orgs as well. The Jesus business is booming.
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Taxing the native american casinos appears, at first glance, to be in violation of the spirit of the treaties from the 1800s. I know that there is a precedent to the US and state governments reneging on those treaties, but I don't think that makes it right to keep doing it.
When we granted them their own areas with their own laws, it wasn't contingent on a 'unless you make a lot of money' clause. If you want to tax them because outside interests are profiting from the casinos, then tax those outside interests in the USA, not the casinos themselves.
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Screw it, Let's invade their soverign territory and take the damn casino's.
What are they going to do..have an Indian Uprising?
Wait..
NO WAR FOR BLACKJACK!!!
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Well damnit, let just invade and take over again!
Were are those small pox infested blankets??:D
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Grrr Muck mine is better!
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I have never undersrtood the whole indian casino thing... if casinos are illegal in California (or any other state) then keep em illegal... If indians are above the law well....
fine but.. Only allow indians to participate. In other words, let them have the casinos but only indians allowed to gamble in them.
lazs
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Screw it, Let's invade their soverign territory and take the damn casino's.
Why not it worked the first time around.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I have never undersrtood the whole indian casino thing... if casinos are illegal in California (or any other state) then keep em illegal... If indians are above the law well....
fine but.. Only allow indians to participate. In other words, let them have the casinos but only indians allowed to gamble in them.
lazs
I think you're missing the point. The indian reservations are not actually in California. Each reservation is its own nation in many ways. It's similar to how embassies are defined legally, that's why gambling and fireworks are legal there.
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"The meek...he said blessed are the meek. Oh that's nice...I'm glad they are getting something, 'cause they've had a 'ell of a time."
Old woman at The Sermon on the Mount.
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Originally posted by Batz
They could alaways set up tolls on the roads going into and out of the reservations.
They oughta tax religious orgs as well. The Jesus business is booming.
Sure than tax the NAACP ACLU NRA and any other NON profit organization. Weather you have a problem with religion or not alot of titheing collect does do some good for people.
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I don't believe that I am missing the point. If they are immune from our laws then why can't they have prostitution or human sacrafice either? If they are not our country then how can we allow them to leave there without a passport or shouldn't they have a visa to llive or work off the reservation? why do they have to comply with other federal and state laws like EPA smog etc?
I say that either let them continue but not allow Americans to participate or... make them follow our laws . I can think of no treaty that allows them to build casinos, tax free or otherwise.
If we can't tax em then put a tarrif on all goods shipped to their land... say 200 bucks a bottle tax on booze that is sent there... EPA fees of several thousand a day... environmental impact fees for out of country users... we can do pretty much what we want if they are not protected as U.S. land.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Sure than tax the NAACP ACLU NRA and any other NON profit organization.
To be a devils advocate, how do you figure religions being non-profit? The catholic church owns more real estate worldwide then almost any non-government entity, and almost all the religions invest their money in various markets to 'ensure the future of the church'.
Add to this Bishops and other high muckety mucks in various churches being driven around in limos, quartered in luxurious homes/castles, and so on.... and that vow of poverty suddenly seems a little.... sparse.
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Federal vs state, state loses. Indian reservation is federal land, federal jurisdiction. Gambling is not illegal under federal law (which is why Nevada can have its gambling in Vegas).
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Its a racket and you know it, turn on TBN any time and you see it.
I don't care what you do with 10% of your gross income but the money collector, ie "Church" ought to be taxed on its "income".
If it makes you feel better to include secular non-profit orgs then what the hell tax them to.
Fence off the reservation and charge the injuns/gamblers to come and go via tolls.
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Originally posted by lazs2
I don't believe that I am missing the point. If they are immune from our laws then why can't they have prostitution or human sacrafice either? If they are not our country then how can we allow them to leave there without a passport or shouldn't they have a visa to llive or work off the reservation? why do they have to comply with other federal and state laws like EPA smog etc?
I say that either let them continue but not allow Americans to participate or... make them follow our laws . I can think of no treaty that allows them to build casinos, tax free or otherwise.
If we can't tax em then put a tarrif on all goods shipped to their land... say 200 bucks a bottle tax on booze that is sent there... EPA fees of several thousand a day... environmental impact fees for out of country users... we can do pretty much what we want if they are not protected as U.S. land.
lazs
Ah, you just proved that you're missing the point. The native american reservations are governed under statutes similar to that of conquered nations. In the interest of peace and goodwill, they are allowed to dot the I's and cross the T's of their own laws, but that goodwill only goes as far as it needs to in the interest of the US federal government. The feds can impose EPA mandates on them if they choose, as well as give the FBI operating jurisdiction in the reservations, but they usually keep a lower profile then what you advocate so that the native americans won't have a reason to cost them money.
Your comment makes little sense because you seem to think that we're still at war with the american indian nation. That's not true, the US won that war over a hundred years ago. There's no harm in leaving them where they are now, as far as federal strategy dictates, and giving them their own leeway in local governance is a cheap way to keep order.
Let's say that the US adopts your jack-booted thuggery approach for some reason.... first thing that happens, you suddenly create a hostile nation WITHIN THE BORDERS of the United States. Suddenly, you, with the miracle of a swipe of a pen, create your own private Palestinian state with thousands of angry, poor people.
The reservations become safe havens for fleeing criminals as the locals no longer have any reason to respect and like the USA. You now have a bunch of smart people with access to the resources of our country deciding whether or not they should start making bombs and shooting planes out of the sky. Not only that, but you've created an enemy that needs to be watched constantly, at the expense of massive new FBI and military presence. Do you think the expense of putting hundreds of federals around their massive borders to deal with insurgents is worth the money you get by destroying their livelihood?
Do us all a favor and reconnect with reality. Just because we CAN do something doesn't always mean we should. Also, sometimes it costs more money then you get when you pull hair brained schemes like you proposed.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
To be a devils advocate, how do you figure religions being non-profit? The catholic church owns more real estate worldwide then almost any non-government entity, and almost all the religions invest their money in various markets to 'ensure the future of the church'.
Add to this Bishops and other high muckety mucks in various churches being driven around in limos, quartered in luxurious homes/castles, and so on.... and that vow of poverty suddenly seems a little.... sparse.
You make a good point....but this also applies to alot of other NON profit organiziations....I'm sure if you look at the guy/girl that runs the Salvation Army, NAACP, ACLU ect. their CEOs (or equivilent directer) probably make sizable saleries.
And not to pick on catholics but I think they have alot more pagentry and glitz than other denomintaion (personal opinion) but is a big rich catholic church really comparable to a small one that runs a soup kitchen with its tithes?
My wife and I got married at a homeless shelter in Las Vegas (LITERALLY) It was a church that ran a homeless shelter...in order to fund the shelter they performed wedding ceramonies.
I would totally agree that a religious organization should be taxed if their procedes led to actual profit....but most of their money gets reinvested into the church itself and used for other missions around the world.
Its a racket and you know it, turn on TBN any time and you see it.
I don't care what you do with 10% of your gross income but the money collector, ie "Church" ought to be taxed on its "income".
If it makes you feel better to include secular non-profit orgs then what the hell tax them to.
Fence off the reservation and charge the injuns/gamblers to come and go via tolls.
So you are saying that what you saw on TV means that all church/religions are like that??????
I saw spiderman last night but that doesnt make me think that there really is a guy in a red and blue suit that was bitten by a spider and now has extrahuman abilities.....
NON profit organizations are not taxed....if you say start taxing ALL of them than sure that's fair.....if your saying Religion is a racket...well 1 that offends me and 2 you are just picking on religion. You cant just pick on one thing cause you dont like it and you cant compare all churches to TBN. That's like saying I saw a black guy on MTV the other night acting like a thug so they all must act that way
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Well as a Catholic you just offended me.
You can have your snake handling, speaking in tongues, slap on the head heal me quacks. I will stick with the man in the pointy hat.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
You make a good point....but this also applies to alot of other NON profit organiziations....I'm sure if you look at the guy/girl that runs the Salvation Army, NAACP, ACLU ect. their CEOs (or equivilent directer) probably make sizable saleries.
Good point. I'll agree that consistency should be the name of the game. One thing you mention later in your post is that the churches usually reinvest their money in themselves. Isn't that the same as what a corporation does? Most businesses reinvest most of their money into themselves, but they still get taxed on their gross income, no matter whether they have stockholder being paid dividends or not.
My concern is that in our country, we have been programmed to accept that churches must be tax free because that is The Word Of God. My hope is that the privileges they enjoy will receive the same scrutiny as the businesses in the name of fairness and that each case might be handled independantly. Painting all religious organizations with a tax free brush seems shortsighted.
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chairboy... hairbrained? many would call letting a seperate nation have casinos within the boundries of states that don't allow em as being hairbrained. Nevada has no state laws against casinos so there is no conflict.
Hostile nation within our nations borders? Now who is being "hairbrained"? Nothing hostile about it. California or the feds simply say that you will pay extra. California could say that no one is allowed to enter Indian land.
It is a matter of degree of course... at what point do you do something to stop it? Perhaps gambling is fine with you but... apparently it is not fine with the state of California (so far as casinos) or it would not be illegal... so you "look the other way" because.. because what ? not a big enough deal? I say that it is to a lot of folks... Perhaps prostitution will be the degree that you are oppossed to.. at that point what solution would you offer?
Regardless it is draining income, causing hardship (if gambling does cause hardship) and it is not paying it's way in taxes.
The state or federal governments have never had a problem with pushing around countries that are opperating under our good graces... same for here. we could shut em down or ask em for taxes in a heartbeat and they would have no choice but to comply.
The state of California could do this and the government would stay out of it. Do you thing the government wants to go against California on the side of casinos? There would be no "hostile nation" involved... they would take the advise of the itallians that are running their "indian" casinos and pay like good little citizens.
lazs
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Just what we need; more fuel for the American Indian Movement. Next thing you know, Leonard Peltier will be a martyr.
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I have to say I sure am glad Lazs2 is safely limited to ranting on the boards and not in any position of power.
Our country is better off and safer as a result.
edit: the same can probably be safely said for me too. :D
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Yea, stick it to the "red man". California's economy is in the toilet through no fault of the Indians, but let's ignore any previous agreements and tax the heck out of them to solve a small part of the problem.
Sweet.
:aok
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Alright, so if they are sovereign countries, let me be the first to invite Canada to come and annex them.
I mean, if they're not part of the USA, we're not going to defend them, right?
NO WAR FOR SLOT MACHINES!!!!
SITTING BULL IS HITLER!!
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stick it to the red man? now that is funny as heck to me... they will still make billions for their itallian bosses..
Don't make a big deal out of it... if we taxed their shady casinos they would pay in a heartbeat.... We are giving them a HUGE thing here... we just want our cut of their vice for profit.
Is not a big deal... just like any other casino they are using state resources to run... they should be taxed by the state or else no casino should be. Why should I pay for resources and infrastructure to run their casinos?
We are not talking about church bingo here folks... we are talking about big time gambling and all the problems that creates. Gambling is a major vice and costs all of us money.
I also believe that any income that goes to people from churches should be taxed....
lazs
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Originally posted by Curval
Yea, stick it to the "red man". California's economy is in the toilet through no fault of the Indians, but let's ignore any previous agreements and tax the heck out of them to solve a small part of the problem.
Sweet.
:aok
Points out "exactly" why I hate politicians. This whole issue was proposed and voted on a few years ago. Didn't pass. Now they're ramping it up again. They'll keep harping on it until it passes or they sneak it in the back door on some other proposition.
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jigs... I am for not taxing anyone but all the casinos are giving me is expense so I say... why should I have to pay for em? let em pay their own way. If they don't pay taxes I don' t see why I should have to.
sheesh.... you guys act like we are taxing an ancient holy right of the indians to build casinos.... there weren't even itallian mobsters around in the old west to run em back then!
lazs
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How are they giving you expense? If you clarified that, it might help me understand your point better.
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Originally posted by lazs2
jigs... I am for not taxing anyone but all the casinos are giving me is expense so I say... why should I have to pay for em? let em pay their own way. If they don't pay taxes I don' t see why I should have to.
Laz, I'll 'splain a bit so maybe my point of view will make more sense and not sound so much like I'm pointlessly politician bashing...
First off... I was raised where "no" means "no." Not "try again in five minutes" or "yes, if you tie me up and tell everyone you made me." So right there, them bringing the issue up again sits wrong with me.
Secondly... going back to where we (the msg board) were talking about politicians sneaking stuff in...ever since the vote passed in CA to stop bilingual education and they brushed it under the rug just proves to me that whomever is in the big office doesn't really care what the voters want.
Lastly... having some native american ancestry, I do get a bit touchy on such topics. ;)
If they're gonna do it anyway, they should just do it and stop trying to make it look like it was something the voters wanted.
Right now they're acting more like kids asking "Can I? Can I? Can I? Huh? Can I?" just to annoy everyone enough to pass it, then turn around and say "Well, you said I could." if it blows up.
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There are two separate initiatives awaiting signature verification, so they do not have ballot numbers yet.
Guess which one is sponsored by the Indian Tribes, and which one is sponsored by the card room and horse racing industry:
Tribal Gaming Compact Renegotiation. Non-Tribal Commercial Gambling Expansion. Revenues, Tax Exemptions. Initiative Constitutional Amendment and Statute.
Signatures Required: 598,105
Proponents: Louis J. Blanas and Lee Baca, c/o Barry Fadem (925) 283-0581
Authorizes Governor to renegotiate tribal-state compacts to require that tribes: Pay 25% of slot machine/gaming device revenues to government fund; comply with multiple state laws; accept state court jurisdiction. Unless all compacted tribes accept terms within 90 days, or if terms determined unlawful, authorizes 16 specified non-tribal racetracks and gambling establishments to operate 30,000 slot machines/gaming devices, paying 33% of revenues to fund public safety, regulatory, social programs. Provides exemption from future state/local tax increases. Limits new tribal gaming. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local governments: This measure would have the following major fiscal effect: Increased local government revenues of likely over $1 billion annually from new gambling revenues. The revenues would be used primarily for additional firefighting, police, and child protective services.
Tribal Gaming Compacts. Exclusive Gaming Rights. Contributions to State. Initiative Constitutional Amendment and Statute.
Signatures Required: 598,105
Proponent: Richard Milanovich, c/o Fredric D. Woocher (310) 576-1233 and Gene Raper (760) 778-7413
Requires Governor to offer renewable 99-year gaming compacts to federally recognized Indian tribes providing: exclusive gaming rights on Indian land; no limits on number of machines, facilities, types of games; contribution to state fund of portion of net tribal gaming income, based on prevailing state corporate tax rate; off-reservation environmental impact reports, public notice/comment opportunities before significant expansion or construction of gaming facilities. Contributions are in lieu of any other fees, taxes or levies. Contributions terminate if state permits non-tribal casino-type gaming. Summary of estimate by Legislative Analyst and Director of Finance of fiscal impact on state and local governments: This measure would have the following major fiscal effect: Increased state gaming revenues - potentially several hundreds of millions of dollars annually. These revenues could increase significantly over time.
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Wait a minute, if it's you being taxed all hell breaks loose and the liberals are taking over the world, but the indians, tax the hell out them!! You can't tax them because then they won't have incentive to make millions with their casinos, that laffer curve thing.
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To be fair, we didn't know that the land was suitable for Casinos when we gave it to the Indians. I think the only right thing to do would be to take the land, and the Casinos, and find someplace else for the Indians.
-Sik
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Originally posted by Batz
They could alaways set up tolls on the roads going into and out of the reservations.
Winner!
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What infrastructure? we are talking police , fire, roads and all sorts of expenses... you don't jam hundreds of thousands of people into an area and not put a strain on the infrastucture...
To be fair.. the indians have in a lot of cases paid for some infrastructure by donation... money for fire trucks and road repairs... that sort of thing. Things like wastewater and water treatment may or may not get funded.
jigs Look... Indian gaming is not the same this even this year as it was last year... it has about doubled. This is a frigging vice ... We are talking about taxing a huge industry.
like I said... I don't want anyone to be taxed but if they make a friggin casino tax exempt ... a huge industry... then why should I pay taxes? If taxing a vice lowers my taxes... well... bet your butt I want them scumbags taxed... be it casinos, potato houses or even opium dens.
Thing is.. they will buckle under without a qualm. No war no (outwardly) hard feelings... calling whitey a devil won't be good for bussiness. If by some monstrously strange turn of events they wqanted to fight it out on legal grounds.... They are landllocked and another nation... We could make sure that no more Americans visited than do cuba.
It's a vice guys... a huge industry... tax them before you tax me. They can, and should pay before I do.
lazs
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sixpense... the laffer curve applies.. they are at zero on the scale... if we get one red cent (can I say one red cent here?) then we are ahead. If they shut down they are no longer a burden on the infrastructure so we are ahead... Win /win
Of course...There is a point where we could maximize money fleeced out of em. Just as the government fleeces you and I.
In the end... they can and should pay more and before me. They create nothing except some low paying jobs and contribute nothing. they offer no service but fuel hardship. Even drugs arguably give more reward for the families they destroy.
We shouldn't be argueing about wether this industry should pay taxes like everyone else but on how much they should pay... Should they pay more like other vices? for instande booze and ciggarretes have a very high tax on em as do casinos elswhere. Do we give em a tax break because they are helping giving to a race of people? welll... all industries get a tax break for charity... so should they.
lazs
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Gray Davis screwed us out of Indian tax money as well???? That guy sucked!!
touch watermelon for us. We screwed the Indians over and stuck them there and said"there, you got your own land, do with it as you want," and laughed because the land was trash. Seems to me they turned the tide on us and we're pissed off as hell. Let them keep their money. They've earned it.
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If California decides that it is ok to tax an industry (casinos), then why not make that industry legal?
Free market.
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Originally posted by lazs2
jigs Look... Indian gaming is not the same this even this year as it was last year... it has about doubled. This is a frigging vice ... We are talking about taxing a huge industry.
Ok, I'll admit to not having seen any actual numbers since the last time it came up for vote. Without my doing due diligence and research to have an in depth discussion, I'll concede that you're probably more up on the topic than me and leave it be.
Originally posted by lazs2
if we get one red cent (can I say one red cent here?)
Nope. Sorry. Gonna have to scalp ya for that one.:eek:
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The Miccosuki tribe in Hollywood Fl, is building a Hard Rock Cafe Hotel and Casino that rivals the one at Universal Orlando. You would not believe this structure. It is all paid for by the proceeds from bingo!!! as this will be the first Casino for the tribe in Hollywood. Now our Indians ar superior to you guy's indians in that the Seminoles were never defeated by the US Gov't. I believe they never signed any treaties with the Feds. The State of Fl. tried to muscle in on the other Casino that they have near Coopertown and the got their arses handed to them. WTG 'Noles. I have heard (unsubstantiated due to lack of interest on my part) that each tribal family is currently receiving $40,000.00 per month from the tribe council (they are a true communal society) they have their own police and fire protection and judicial system. I believe that they deserve their money and that the Gov't should geep their greasy fingers outta the Indian tills.
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Originally posted by lazs2
sixpense... the laffer curve applies.. they are at zero on the scale
Well, you know my thoughts on the laffer scale, you show me a millonaire who doesn't want to make another million because of taxes, i'll show you a shmuck. Even if it is 50%, do you think someone will not want to make 500,000? And if he doesn't, there will be plenty behind him that will gladly do it. We are capitalists, taxes will not stop us. That's not an excuse to raise taxes, i'm just making a point.
if we get one red cent (can I say one red cent here?)
Ahh, but we do, the winnings are taxed. So here is where you get creative. Instead of taking the liberal approach and taxing them, require them to make a % of their intake go towards winnings, like the lottery. The winnings are taxed, and the people get money to spend.
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fine storch but then they shouldn't be entitled to any infrastructure in the U.S.. or any state.. We should simply not allow U.S. citizens to go to indian land. How much would they make then?
and... if every one of em makes $40,000 a month... how much do they pay in income taxes?
They should have to get a visa to use our roads and such or to be outside indian land. They don't pay for the highway patrol or the roads going to the casinos or the devestation on the infrastructure caused by the addiction they create and allow.
lazs
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If a church follows the same rules as other not for profits, then sure, don't tax 'em. If not, they're a for-profit business and should be taxed as such.
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Originally posted by lazs2
fine storch but then they shouldn't be entitled to any infrastructure in the U.S.. or any state.. We should simply not allow U.S. citizens to go to indian land. How much would they make then?
and... if every one of em makes $40,000 a month... how much do they pay in income taxes?
They should have to get a visa to use our roads and such or to be outside indian land. They don't pay for the highway patrol or the roads going to the casinos or the devestation on the infrastructure caused by the addiction they create and allow.
lazs
Lazs makes a good point. I think we should treat Canada the same way. If they don't wanna pay our taxes, then nobody gets to go there from the US - and if they wanna come here they'd best get a visa.
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sixpense.. any money you extort from people is a tax. By taxing winnings (over a certain amount) you are taxing the people who have the least money and... it is allready done at other casinos. The money is income tax and is a very small amount... some is even offset by those who claim gambling losses.
simply treat all casinos the same.. Treat all bussiness and all vice the same.
This isn't poaching a few salmon here folks this is a multi billion dollar a year bussiness that operates in every other way like any other but....with the protection of no competition and not having to pay for the damage it causes. It enjoys all the protection and a lot more of any other bussiness but does not pay for any of it like the rest of us.
lazs
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SOB I guess if there were little pockets of canada in the middle of California and they were making tens of billions a year of of say opium dens and not paying a cent into the infrastructre then... you would have a point.... eh?
lazs
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hmmm, lasz
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Originally posted by lazs2
sixpense.. any money you extort from people is a tax.
Right, but they get taxed on their winnings anyway, what i'm saying is that instead of giving the money to the government to spend, give it to the people, you would still be taking money from the casino, but instead of it falling into the governments hands, it goes right to the people, bypassing the bureaucracy.
By taxing winnings (over a certain amount) you are taxing the people
You don't understand, you are not raising the tax on the winnings, they would be just winning more, and the more you make, the more you get taxed, your winnings are the same as if you were playing the lottery, it counts towards your income that you report at the end of the year, you report it like you do the lottery.
some is even offset by those who claim gambling losses.
That is something that is brought on by the lotteries, not the casinos, and it isn't right, it gives you more incentive to play the lottery and gamble your life away, every state's cash cow.
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six.. not sure what you are saying... how would there be more winnings than there are now or, more extorted money for California (tax).
How do you tell the feds that you aren't going to pay them tax on winnings anymore? I don't understand how you are going to get more out of the casinos than we are now... They pay nothing now... the people pay in tax on winnings, tax that they pay extra to keep the casino vice running and they get nothing out of it except that they have a populace with less money to spend on legitimate bussiness that pays taxes . Plus... we get to deal with the human wreckage that a vice like gambling produces.
Soo... slowly so that I can understand... how would you negate the negative cash flow of casinos in a fair manner?
All I would ask is that is they operate under the same tax rate of all the other other casinot... they allready have protectionist pollicy that is worth 10's of billions of dollars... the least they could do is help pay for the damage they cause by paying the same taxes as any other casino...
They would get the same breaks as other casinos but have the unbelivably HUGE advantage of having all their competition.... friggin outlawed! I would say that even profits of 8 billion a year is pretty good "compensation". Allowing them to prey off our citizens with no competition... it don't get any better than that...
lazs
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Originally posted by Batz
Well as a Catholic you just offended me.
You can have your snake handling, speaking in tongues, slap on the head heal me quacks. I will stick with the man in the pointy hat.
how can you be offended. You called it a racket. A racket to me is somthing like organized crime. I just stated that catholics tend to have a little bit more glits than other denominations.
If you want to compare them be my guest. I dont consider myself a religious person as I dont beleive in religion I beleive in Christ the savior.
Religion is an idea created by man to be closer to god.....Christ was Man created by God to be closer to Man.
I give money to the church because I know they do good with it. You want to tax them for that than fine...get rid of non profit organizations all together. If you are just picking on churches because you wathed TBN and the woman with big blond hair and way to much make up looked like a snake charmer than you need to get out more.
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Originally posted by lazs2
six.. not sure what you are saying... how would there be more winnings than there are now or, more extorted money for California (tax).
lol, did you read my first post?
"Ahh, but we do, the winnings are taxed. So here is where you get creative. Instead of taking the liberal approach and taxing them, require them to make a % of their intake go towards winnings, like the lottery. The winnings are taxed, and the people get money to spend."
You see now how it works? You take that tax percentage that would go to the government and equate that into the amount required that go towards winnings, voila!
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"We should simply not allow U.S. citizens to go to indian land."
Please stop, Laz is starting to sound like a Libral with womenly intensions.
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ahh I see six... the reason it didn't click is because there is no connection between how a lottery works and how a casino work (with the possible exception of keno)..
In the lottery, everyone pays but only a very small percent or fraction of a percent ever win anything... In a casino the win lose margins may be in the 96 % margin.. basicly, if you play a slot machine you will win 96 dollars for every 100 you lose. Not much room there and... if you use the current way of taxation... you need to win like what? $2,000 $2,5000 before it needs to be reported?
Even worse... people rarely win that much in a lump... they might even win 10 times that without ever reaching the limit where it would have to be reported if they win a little here and a little there.
so yeah... you would have to get real creative and... even if you could figure out a way to make it work.. it's still a tax and no better or worse than simply using the system in place.
basicaly tho... I don't want anyone to pay taxes or... I want everyone to pay less taxes... Them not payoing any increases all of our tax burdens.
lazs
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torque... it would never come to that... they would pay any tax we put on em and pretend to like it. They know it could happen.
lazs
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lazs, if you hit a 2.000 dollar jackpot on the slots in an Indian casino the Feds take their cut right off the top unless you have your Social Security card, in which case you get a 1099 form showing your winnings as "income." Happened to my step dad couple of weeks ago.
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Right, what i'm trying to do is get the money into the peoples hands. Remember, whatever % you would tax them(casino), a good portion of that gets eaten up by government bureaucracy, by the time it trickles down back to you, there is alot less to spend.
I'm not sure what you are saying on the winning, but if you mean the casinos are not making much because you win 96 dollars for every 100 you spend, then there isn't much we can tax, that laffer curve thing would apply?
But like I said, any money we could get out of them would be better served in the peoples hands as winnings, even if that money does not have to be reported, it gets spent in the community, buying power helps the economy and tax dollars get collected on what they buy. The less government has their hands on the money, the better. But if the government gets their way(and they will) they won't do it my way.
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Right, what i'm trying to do is get the money into the peoples hands.
The Indians who live on the Laytonville Ranchiera each got a check for 11 grand from an Indian Gaming Cooperative. It provided a real bonanza to the local economy.
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Originally posted by Airhead
The Indians who live on the Laytonville Ranchiera each got a check for 11 grand from an Indian Gaming Cooperative. It provided a real bonanza to the local economy.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, I realize that on some reservations, unemployment is over 80%. What i'm saying is if the casinos are making millions to the point you think they should be paying taxes, why not do it in a creative way that keeps the government hands off the money, and puts it in the hands of the people. The government tends to do stupid things with our money, and if anyone is going to do something stupid with it, it should be the people. Like a wide screen LCD HD TV, color me stupid:aok
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I think we should tax anything that is chrome.
:lol
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Originally posted by Sixpence
The government tends to do stupid things with our money, and if anyone is going to do something stupid with it, it should be the people. Like a wide screen LCD HD TV, color me stupid:aok
Hey, I LIKE my new TV!!! Sheeesh man that was a cold shot!!:mad:
When we had a budget surplus in California (before Bush and the Enron Republicans raped us) nobody cared about Indian gaming- now that it's become so lucrative everyone wants a slice of the pie.
It'll be tough to change things now cause guess who the largest political contributors in the State are? That's right, Indian Gaming.
One good side effect of Indian autonomy is that cage fighting (aka Ultimate mixed martial arts fighting), which has been banned in all States except Louisiana or Arkansas, is staged 20 minutes from my place.
Anyway Lazs you should appreciate the fact Indian lands are free from all those pesky State nannying laws. You can smoke indoors, ride motorcycles without helmets, and run across the room while carrying scissors. Instead of making Indian lands more like California you should focus on making California more like the Indian lands. ;)
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Originally posted by lazs2
They should have to get a visa to use our roads and such or to be outside indian land.
Um......be outside Indian land...that's a good one...:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Airhead
Hey, I LIKE my new TV!!! Sheeesh man that was a cold shot!!:mad:
lol, well, for me, right now I have more pressing needs, so for me it would be stupid, the wife ack would shoot me down before I got a chance to get it anyway;)
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NATIVE AMERICAN'S can drink any of us gay white man with guns any day.
Long Live Beer!
:cool:
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Sorry, can't tax the Indian Nation. But if ya want to send in Halliburton to build the casinos for war repairation projects, I'm sure the Republicans would be in favor. It's been a while but we did invade and wipe them out.
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airhead.. thank you.. it is 2,000 then. And... I wouldn't mind if California was more like indian land but it's not. As for no one saying anything when the state was flush... not entirely true but... that was when the camels nose was under the tent... little tiny buildings with poker and bingo and such... now the camel named guido has more than his broken nose in the tent... his whole mob is in. The maid is asking for a raise to clean up the camel dung.
six... think about it a little. the 96% means that they make a little off of a lot of people just like the lottery but.. the cost is such that they make a lot... people don't typically lose 300-1500 a lotery unless they are really really stupid... In the lottery there are huge jackpots but allmost no chance of winning them... if indian gaming was a lottery only... no one would play they would make nothing. Caisnos fleece people in a completetly different manner... the losses are higher but the rate of loss over hours or days is low.. 4-20% you can play for a long time and "only" lose a few hundred or a thousand dollars.
The flip side is that very few walk away winners big enough to tax... most win a hundred or two over a few days. Allmost none win 2000 in one place like airheads example... someone winning a grand with one pull of the slot handle and then another grand an hour later and them 1500 two hours latter would not be taxed a cent.
We are living up to our treaty by letting them have an illegal (in the state) casino with no competition... we are eating the havoc the casino causes ... we have asked them to comply with some of our rules tho like deductions and workers rights etc... no problem asking them to pay taxes if they wish to participate. Not asking them to do anything we wouldn't ask any legal casino to do that is operating exactly the same way they are and causing exacly the same burden they are.
barring that... we should allow other gaming iorganizations to open casinos and treat them the same as the indians tax wise. No treaty would be broken... or... we simply could charge a toll to any road leading to an indian casino.
I believe that they would prefer to participate in our state and pay like everyone else.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
six... think about it a little. the 96% means that they make a little off of a lot of people just like the lottery but.. the cost is such that they make a lot
Well, are they making alot of money or not? If they are, do what I said.
people don't typically lose 300-1500 a lotery unless they are really really stupid
You would be really surprised
The flip side is that very few walk away winners big enough to tax
And you are not happy with this? Are you going liberal on us?
Allmost none win 2000 in one place like airheads example... someone winning a grand with one pull of the slot handle and then another grand an hour later and them 1500 two hours latter would not be taxed a cent.
I do not think you understand, it's not like that, you think you can run around winning small amounts that add up to 50k and not be taxed? After a certain amount, you have to report it. Here in Ma., once you go over 600, you have to report it...all.
We are living up to our treaty by letting them have an illegal (in the state) casino with no competition
Alot of state lotteries are run by private companies, so they do have competition, every convenience store you see
we have asked them to comply with some of our rules tho like deductions and workers rights etc... no problem asking them to pay taxes if they wish to participate.
We have many American companies who base themselves offshore doing the same.
Whatever money you want to tax them could be done the way I suggested, I refuse to support anything that puts the money into the bureaucracy.
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Lazs, would you feel better if the Indians were still selling salmon at the side of the road and living on welfare? Before Indian Gaming that's how it was.
Of course the flip side to that is sixty new Indian tribes in California petitioning for recognization so they, too, might open a Casino...
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six.. you may be obligated to report all your winnings but the casino is not obligated to report anyone who wins less that 2000.. You are a bright lad.. think about it.. If they were required then no one would gamble.. plus... the paperwork and control would be staggering... Nevada has been doing this a long time and they know and the feds know they are taking a hit on people being dishonest about winnings... they have settled on the reporting limits after a lot of thought... Have you ever heard of anyone reporting winning say $500 on their income tax?
If you want to spare the poor downtrodden indians barely scraping by on 10 billion a year then your scheme will not work... if you want to simply spare them but get more income of the sheep that go there.... then a toll at the roads would be simpler or... A tax on every consumable that the indians would collect and then turn in.
lazs
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airehead.... I am not in any way saying take the casinos away from em or take the profits... I am saying that they have gotten so big that they need to pay for the havoc they cause... a couple of billion $ a year will hardly drive them into selling salmon on the side of the road..
but.. are you saying that the only things they can do well is gamble and sell salmon? and that they wouldn't even be able to do that if we dindn't give em total protection from any competition? They hardly seem worth saving if you are correct.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
six.. you may be obligated to report all your winnings but the casino is not obligated to report anyone who wins less that 2000
First of all, it is the person who wins that must report it, not the casino, they just report how much went out as winnings. What you said in your last post was that people could win a grand every hour and not report it, that's not how it works.
Have you ever heard of anyone reporting winning say $500 on their income tax?
you are getting into tax evasion
then a toll at the roads would be simpler or... A tax on every consumable that the indians would collect and then turn in.
You my friend, would make a great politician in Massachusetts.
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Originally posted by lazs2
airehead.... I am not in any way saying take the casinos away from em or take the profits... I am saying that they have gotten so big that they need to pay for the havoc they cause... a couple of billion $ a year will hardly drive them into selling salmon on the side of the road..
but.. are you saying that the only things they can do well is gamble and sell salmon? and that they wouldn't even be able to do that if we dindn't give em total protection from any competition? They hardly seem worth saving if you are correct.
lazs
First- "Havoc?" What havoc? Increased traffic? I hear that alot now, but I never heard the outcry to collect money from Nevada casinos to repair California hiways- that's what a gas tax is for, right?
As far as gamble and sell salmon, most Ranchieras and reservations are in rural areas without much industry, so basically there isn't much to do but drink and pitchfork fish, and using a pitchfork to fish with doesn't take much skill.
Grey Davis is the one who gave the Indians the sweetheart deal (after getting his brib... er.... campaign contrubitions) and Ah0nold has vowed to get a more equitable deal, so expect the Indians to volunteer to kick in a couple billion a year to the State.
BTW, you gone out to Thunder Valley yet Lazs? I don't gamble much but they have a great buffet up there, it's pretty good.
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six... I don't know if I should take back my statement about you being "a bright lad" or simply conclude that you are terminaly naive... yes... the winners are required to report their winnings and yes... it is tax evasion to not but... people don't pay their taxes if they can evade em with no chance of being caught.
By your logic... there should be no records kept of earnings or capital gains... the people would just be honest and report it.
No... they set the limit at 2000 (or whatever) for a reason... first and formost... it would be allmost impossible to track every little win of 10$ till it aded up to 2000... it would be a staggering task.. it would cost the casino and the government more than it is worth.
Look... you wussy little bleeding hearts have to realize... I don't want more taxes...Indian casinos are increasing my taxes because I am paying for what they are not... I am paying for the mess they make... And.. what people approved was a few tiltups or mobile buildings with....
BINGO... who could ask them to pay taxes on harmless games like bingo? Hell... churches do it all the time... it's all for a good cause and doesn't hurt anyone right?
Of course but... that was then... this is now. Now it is Guido running a multi billion dollar a year fleecing operation based on an illegal vice that is sucking the resources out of the state they are in... It is branching out further every day...
every solution for making them pay for the damage they do is much more cumbersome and unfair than than simply using the tax base system that is allready in place.
lazs
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airhead... we are discussing here if they should be taxed not how it came about that they weren't... I am glad the grey one is gone too... just like everyone else.
This is a simple thing. It will be voted on. At the point where it was a few buildings with people playing bingo and very little damage done and in infrastructue and human waste due to addiction... I myself would have voted to not tax em... like a church.. a little bingo for the good of the poor..
Now... we are in a multi multi billion dollar vice operation run by outside mob gaming people.. the operations are not distiguisable from nevada style gambling in any way except... Nevada gambling pays it's way and indian gambling doesn't.
When you ask me if a multi billion dollar vice should go untaxed and if I will be willing to absorb the cost by an increase in my taxes... well... then boyo... you are talking a different kettle of salmon.
But... we will see.. if the people don't feel the bite they won't vote to make the indians pay their share... if the bite is felt then they will..
I am simply saying that they have now gotten big enough that they need to ease my burden a little not the other way around.
lazs
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Lasz2, you still haven't said how your tax money is being spent to support the casinos. The closest you've come is making vaguely menacing references to the evils of gambling.
Please clarify?
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chair... all vices cause human suffering and expense. Broken families the works from addiction.. Most places the casinos operate were never intended to have the kind of poulation traffic they are getting.. the roads and infrastructure are taking a beating...
while they police themselves... they do not have higway patrols or local police to make up for the ltraffic control and increased crime from so many people in one area that were never there before.
Now... by contrast... I am paying taxes but my load on the infrastructure is minute. I am paying for police and infrastructure and addicts even tho I don't have anything to do with crime increases or addiction.
If they don't pay taxes then why should I? Or, more to the point... if I have to pay taxes then why don't they?
They would simply be paying taxes on what they fleece out of the sheep like any other casino. They are enjoying all the protection and infrastructure but not paying a tax on the profit they earn on their multi billion dollar operation... How is that right? More... they are having their vice protected by making competition illegal... I would say that having that much of an advantage is advantage enough.
Would you prefer that we allow nevada gamers to open casinos to compete with them and offer low tax rates to nevada gamers? I am sure the Nevada casinos would jump on that and even tho we got smaller taxes it would be better than nothing.
lazs
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Isn't alcohol responsible for a lot more death, heartbreak, and broken families then gambling? Between drunk drivers, drunken wife beaters, health problems, I imagine alcohol does a LOT more damage then any indian casino, but a search of the message boards doesn't show you advocating a return to prohibition.
Would you care to take this opportunity to expound on the subject?
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you are correct and... booze is one of the most heavily taxed vices. It is also illegal to drive under the influence or be drunk in public... My stance is... let everone do as many drugs as they want but if they kill someone in a car under the influence of even pot... it is murder... premeditated most likely...
Now... I am not against gambling and casinos either... well... I have no interest in them in any case but.... I am against multi billion dollar casino bussiness costing me money.
I would not be oppossed to letting the nevada gambling groups bid on building casinos here. They would be given legal status for a fee (tax)... even if it were small.... it would be better than the no competition indian ones we have now. I believe their italians could woop the indians italians.
Or, are you against competition?
To get this straight... I don't care about indians... I wasn't here when we won the indian wars.. I think for the most part they were blodthirsty torturing savages that only managed to not destroy the country (environment) they lived in because of the simple fact that they were so backward that they had high mortality rates... but...
I was born here and it is my country and my country made a treaty with em... the treaty may allow for their ancient rite of slot machine use but it in no way exempts them from income taxes... or "fees" "tolls" call it what you will.
The "advantage" that they have is huge... they are the gambling monopoly and it is making them billions. They get to do what no one else in the state they are in can do and... make a huge profit off it.
I say if we have casinos in California then we should at least make some money off em or.... at the very least... not have em cost me money. We can let the indians have our legal protection and tax em or... we can allow competion and get money from their competitors.
wanna bet how the indians would vote?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I was born here and it is my country and my country made a treaty with em... the treaty may allow for their ancient rite of slot machine use but it in no way exempts them from income taxes... or "fees" "tolls" call it what you will.
lazs
Yes, the treaty most Indians signed with the Gov't. DOES exempt them from State taxes, fees, tolls or whatever- in fact a new rule exempts California Indians from car registration if their car is driven "primarily" on Indian land.
Fair? No, but all the propisitions in the world, all the initiatives in the world and all the bold statements by California politicians can't change the fact it's THEIR land, they can do what they want on it in accordance with Federal laws, and there's not a damn thing we can do about it. That "fair tax" initiative will be struck down- the only way the State will get Indian casino money is if the Indians voluntarily give it to the State.
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exactly airhead... they own the land but not the land around it. We could toll em tax em whatever em to death or....
We could allow competition... which is probly what will happen in any case unless we start makeing some money off em.
You are absolutely correct about the voluntary part... If they know what is good for em... they will continue their sweetheart deal with California and "voluntarily" pay taxes in order to keep us from runnig em out of bussiness and dealing with the itallians direct.. we would simply cut out the middle man....
lazs
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Don't forget who the largest political contributors in the State are. BTW, you should do a run up to Lincoln to Thunder Valley Casino. They have a great buffet.
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Originally posted by lazs2
By your logic... there should be no records kept of earnings or capital gains... the people would just be honest and report it.
Here you do not have to sign your scratch ticket up to 500 dollars, I can't tell you how many people hit multiple times and do not report it. So do I want them to be hunted down because they are not paying their share? No, God bless them!!
If you tax them they will just take it out of the winnings, so the money that goes into the people's hands will go into government bureaucracy instead.
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Start charging toll fees from people going into indian areas.
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What if they're going there for a show, ala Wayne Newton style?
Guilty until proven innocent?
It seems like some of y'all are trying to solve something that isn't a problem.
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It isn't a problem for me... Like I said... either let everyone open casinos and get the money from them when they run the indians out of bussiness or don't tax me anymore either. Or... ask the indians to pay what every other casino in the world pays and continue to protect them from competition... The only "problem" is the 2 billion a year that in taxes that is lost to the big indian vice giveaway... That is 2 billion that the gavernment makes up from.... me and you. I call it a problem...
Bet they would choose the latter over all other propossals offered so far... It still isn't fair to other gambling syndicates but hey... it's still more fair to us than simply eating the loss.
airhead.. naa... don't really do casinos unless I am just about forced too. You know.. with a big group that wants to see a show or go out to eat and then.. only in reno or vegas.. no interest in indian casinos.
lazs