Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Damned CM on November 11, 2000, 10:52:00 AM
-
Hi guys,
this is my first post on this message board and to tell the truth I am new to the game too, but I have been flying for some weeks now. Most of you guys might know me from the kills (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
I hope I am not bothering anyone with this post but this is just an idea I had. (Pre-Note: I know how to adjust the sights etc) In some planes I still have problems seeing what's going up on my six so my idea was how about the addition of mirrors to the planes which really had 'em. Just a thought. Would make it easier to check your six in some of the planes.
I am sorry if already someone had posted something like this!
------------------
Damned CM
Damned if we do..No Fun if we don't!!
www.damned.org (http://www.damned.org)
-
Damned, you know that you can adjust and save head positions, right?
AH has the best view system of any game I have seen and using view adjustment keys to find and F10 to save head positions can give you very good snap views.
------------------
When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
-
Some planes really HAD problems with getting a decent rear view. By using AH's inbuilt mode of adjusting each view you can get a decent 6 view in most of the planes. As you mention some ot the planes had a mirror, but I think tha the current mode reflects (pun) the actual situation quite well.
I have put the views I personal use for each plane up at my homepage for download.
--------
Ltn. Snefens
RO, Lentolaivue 34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34/)
My own homepage (http://home14.inet.tele.dk/snefens/).
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Snefens (edited 11-11-2000).]
-
P-47, Spitfire, F4U had mirrors. Any others (that we have in AH)?
-
P-51 had em.
Hooligan
-
The russian air force had women as pilots. I guess their planes had mirrors too.
And I know that Grinbird and Cavalear have mirrors in their cockpits too. For the same reasons as these russian pilots, I believe.
Camo
------------------
Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
Brewster into AH!
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
[edit] (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) [/edit]
[This message has been edited by LLv34_Camouflage (edited 11-11-2000).]
-
ROFL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
-
hi all:
I put a mirrow on top of my monitor, but it does not help at all.
------------------
wolf37
C.O.
THUNDER BIRDS
-
The only problem I see with mirrors is that some guys would whine because the would say. CHEAT!! CHEAT!! you were 5.1 back and you closed and killed me seconds later! Reply: No I was 1.5 back and had lots of E DWEEB! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Thunder
-
Oh and what is a TIPS OR A KAY anyway hehe!
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
Thunder
-
Thunder, you could always put the disclaimer "Airplanes in mirror are closer than they appear".
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
CJ
-
Mirrors = low, low FPS
Wilfrid
-
Thanks for the answers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)! And I knew/know how to adjust the sights and I've tried to find some better settings in the last few flights.
Hey..wouldn't it be a cool effect to blend your enemines with the mirror.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) <just a thought>.
See you up there!
-
P38 and Wildcat had em along with the hellcat. Corsair had as many as three. Most of us know that mirrors don't work very well tho. Simmers cars are the ones with the mirrors removed. I used to think said cars belonged to vampires but now I know better.
lazs
-
They are likely un-workeable due to framerate.
Never mind the fact that in real life, the vibration must have made them nearly useless. I'm sure if I was a pile-it I'd have had one too, just in case a flash of colour might alert me to an incoming enemy. However, they didn't have to work about framerate issues, so it wouldn't hurt to throw one on IRL. Here it would be a trade-off for a very questionable benefit.
------------------
Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs http://www.flyingpigs.com (http://www.flyingpigs.com)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"My P-47 is a pretty good ship, she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip.
Just thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip, always got me through so far."
- Steve Earl
-
Suppose the mirrow was simulated as another view entirely, from the basis you have to look up and focus on the mirror in order for it to be of any use in RL.
-
We have them already. They are magnifying and for some reason called zoom.
-
The best impelementation of mirrors I have seen in a sim is Grand Prix Legends. They look perfect but they are a framerate hog.
I think for AH the frame rate problems would be prohibitive. Two ways to make it work:
1. Offer the mirrors as an option for those with uber PC's.
2. Simplify the graphics used in the mirror. No icon, no textures, just sky and earth and a low-detail image of any planes in view.
-
AW has had mirrors on several of thier aircraft for years and years now. F4F, Spitfires, F4U for instance. Why WB's and AH does not actually baffles me. It is not an FPS hole "over there" and I do not see why it should be in Aces High.
Although it could be an FPS hitter with this graphics engine and it could be something that HTC does not want to spend time modelling at the expense of other programming needs.
-Westy
[This message has been edited by Westy (edited 11-13-2000).]
-
Originally posted by funked:
1. Offer the mirrors as an option for those with uber PC's.
Absolutely not. Those with uber PCs should see things prettier then those without, but they should not see anything extra.
If you want to buy advantage, you can get a second PC, open a second account and use it for your 6 view like the mirror. At least HTC will benefit.
miko
[This message has been edited by miko2d (edited 11-13-2000).]
-
Adding mirrors would cost a good chunk of frame rate ala GPL. The reason AW's mirrors weren't framerate hitters is because they were just a 2D overlay on the rear view designed to look like a mirror. Also imagine trying to saddle up on a guy while flying a spit and having that mirror block out a good chunk of your forward-up view. If we ever do mirrors, it'll be a good while before it would be worth spending the frame-rate and development time on it.
------------------
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
-
I'll save that for future questions on this subject. Thanks Pyro. The GPL reference especially drove the point home and I'd not know how AW did it either.
-Westy
-
The "Mirror" in AW was just a rearward facing periscope, replacing the 6 view. The "planes in mirror are closer than they appear" on some planes was pretty damn funny though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
In AH you could get pretty much the same thing by moving your head up to where a mirror would be placed (as you can literally put your eyeballs against the canopy if you like) for the rear view.
------------------
Rickenbacker (Ricken)
-ISAF-
the Independent Swedish Air Force
-
I am sorry for asking about mirrors guys. I didn't know that it would hit the framerate that much. It was just an idea i had cause I remembered this from AW.
I thought a button which you hit when you want to have a look in the mirror instead of view keys would show the six without the rudders or the seat but with a frame around or something like that (more or less like in aw but you still have the real six view).
But thanks for the replies! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
------------------
Damned CM
Damned if we do..No Fun if we don't!!
www.damned.org (http://www.damned.org)
-
for all those who ask about AH getting rearview mirrors.
Westy
-
I don't know how much they were actually used by pilots in WWII, but even modern aircraft continue to have them.
The F-15 had such good visibility, it was built without mirrors. The first thing Israeli pilots did when the got them was add mirrors. The US pilots quickly made sure they got the same modification.
I don't think vibration would be much of a problem for the mirrors faired into the canopy frame. Any vibration that would have upset a mirror image would have affected the gunsight as well since both were rigidly connected. The ones on a narrow stem with no streamlining would be more likely to oscillate.
If the mirrors were useless, pilots in the field would have removed them to clear their field of view and reduce drag. So, I suspect at least some, if not the majority, of pilots probably used them to some extent.
-
Mirrors in AW?!?!?
All i ever saw in AW resembling a mirror was the reversed rearview image when checking 6 in aircraft that were equipped with the things
funked ?? u actually saw stuff in the mirrors in GPL? who did u ever pass? +)
But.. i've not played a race game in which mirrors didn't suck resources, but Papy sims have done a decent job of them in their Nascar series as well
SKurj
-
I real live u wont see watermelon in rear view mirrors.
Some 1 brought up an interview with a real life spitfire pilot.
THe pilot said that he never trusted the mirror.
-
You say mirrors?
Ok. If you have looost of money (I dont), buy second PC set with monitor and get second AH account.
Stack extra monitor above your main monitor. How? Its your, problem, bro. Now login with both accounts and join with your extra Ah account to your old account. Setup mirror-monitor look back wards continiously.
Setup your hotas so it could control both POVs sametime. How? Dunno.
Nice mirror without fps hit and much more :p
I just wonder how many here really use this kind setup allready :rolleyes:
-
Take a breath Xjazz. How about they just code the out of the canopy 6 view and put it in a mirror for planes that had them?
Then you'd have a fps hit. Nevermind.
-
Why would anyone need or even want mirrors with the AH 6 view?
-
Dint i read someware that a ww2 pilot said if u see them in your rear mirror your already as good as dead !!!!:eek:
-
Exactly GRUN, but at least it saves the X45 one hat look which could put me on X45 purchase #6, not 7.
Forget reality airbull, I'd like to not see a game model a
.
or a
__
as a poster said recently regarding the six view.
Seeing the La7 icon in the mirror would be OK though.
-
Well I posted this in the other thread about mirrors, but it seems more appropriate here, so I'll stick it in this thread, too:
----
TK's latest flight sim (the developer of EAW, by the way) is a 1960s era jet sim. Flyable are the F-4, Phantom F-104 Starfighter and others. The reason I bring it up is that it has mirrors on the cockpits, and they work really well.
A mirror WILL NOT save you from a bogey on your six that you didn't know about, because by the time you see it you're toast.
It does add a lot to immersion, and a sense of 3d space, however, since you see ground objects, or the horizon, or clouds and other things reflected in it. Especially in AH, when there are often periods where all you see from the forward view or 45 degree up view is blue sky, also seeing the location of the horizon in a reflection, or how quickly the landscape is scrolling past, would be helpful. In TK's Strike Fighters: Project 1, there are a lot of vapour trails so it's helpful for spotting those, too.
While there is a hit to framerates, it's not the old days where Voodoo1s were struggling to show the forward view with full details in GPL, and then enabling the mirrors made it a slide show. Video cards have buckets of processing power and texture memory compared to back then, and it could be implemented easily. Of course, they could be a user option.
[ADDENDUM]
Pyro, I'm surprised to hear your comment that it would be a total FPS spoiler like GPL. While there would definitely be a performance hit -- no question -- I simply can't see it being like a GPL era game where 3D cards were in their infancy and both CPUs and cards were being overly taxed. While an absolutely wonderful game, GPL even had lots of trouble dealing with all the AI cars on the same part of the track at once (starts were a slide show). Playing it with a modern rig makes it smooth as silk. If you check out TK's SF:P1 (just arrived on the shelves within the past two weeks) you'll see that they mirrors can be easily integrated and look gorgeous. I know that AH is targeting different hardware requirements, however.
That said, Pyro, great to hear from you on the boards!!! :) Some of us were getting nervous about your whereabouts.
[/addendum]
FWIW, I liked the direct 6 view as looking up in the mirror in Spits in AW. While I didn't play AW much at all, that was one aspect that I really found kind of neat. They got around the frame rate hit by not rendering two different scenes on the same display (i.e. one couldn't see around the mirror, it only showed the reflection). It was a clever, low-tech application, that dealt with the "Linda Blair" dead-six view that many don't like.
Cheers,
phaetn
-
A mirror WILL NOT save you from a bogey on your six that you didn't know about, because by the time you see it you're toast.
In AH, a HUGE RED ICON AT any icon enabled range distance will be noticed in the mirror, obviously.
You just check 6 outside the canopy via the AH views. It's a mere hat switch nuisance/ unrealism feature.
-
HOLY CRAP!
Looking at Pyro's post (that I had responded to) I had assumed that this was a relatively new thread.
Looking at the date, though, he posted that in Nov. 2000. TWO YEARS ago. Yikes!!!! Vid cards and CPUs have advanced a lot even since that post. The "good while" he was talking about could well have easily passed by now, no?
DamnedCM, what the hell were you doing digging this up from the bowels of the earth? ;) Seriously, its contents are no longer relevant in the current context of AH.
Creamo, it needn't be a hat switch/unrealism feature. It would be integrated into current views. That way you see both what's ahead (not blocked by the mirror) and what's reflected. I'm not suggesting the AW implementation at all, but a much more realistic one now that we have the horsepower to do it. Icons need not be enabled in the mirror view.
Take a spin in TK's SF:P1 (published by Strategy First) and you'll see just how compelling mirrors can be.
[edit]
Actually, let me stick in a couple of screenies for your edification:
(http://members.rogers.com/phaetn/images/sf1_thumb.jpg) (http://members.rogers.com/phaetn/images/sf1.jpg) (http://members.rogers.com/phaetn/images/sf2_thumb.jpg) (http://members.rogers.com/phaetn/images/sf2.jpg)
Click on images to expand.
You'll note in the first, just the "cool effect" of mirrors. This is in widely expanded field of view, zoomed back to max in an F-4 cockpit. The default FOV is much further forward, and cuts into the two side mirrors, though the top one is still fully visible.
In the second image (an F-104 Starfighter at default FOV), you'll note that it's impossible to see one's orientation in the forward view because of inclement weather (picture AH blue sky that is also mostly featureless). A quick glance at the mirrors, which are quite close at hand, immediately shows your position relative to the ground because you can see the runway, as well as your changing aspect and can serve as a rough gauge of speed -- all the while you haven't had to glance down into the cockpit to look at a horizon ball, VSI, or airspeed indicator. This works equally well if you're at a higher altitude and see terrain or the horizon reflected, not just a ground object.
While a mirror won't stop you getting bounced, if there was a bogey there there that was in slight lag pursuit, it can help to monitor his orientation during ACM while you can still keep an eye on your forward view. According to how he's moving in the mirror, you can see if you're gaining angles or if he's going to slip into lead pursuit, or if he's turned away, etc. etc. My preference would be that icons are not shown in the mirror.
It's not a substitute for turning your head to look for a bogey, but it does impart more info about your aircraft's state, and we desperately need that in a game where we don't have any seat of the pants feedback. If you can't see the landscape or clouds, you have little idea as to what's going on without looking at the instruments or switching view to look at a fixed object, except for your own anticpation of the manouver you're performing. That's highly unrealistic, but a limit we have to accept.
I'd like to hear other comments from people who have actually experience both methods, to hear their reaction.
[/edit]
Streakeagle, you make an excellent point, if mirrors weren't useful, pilots wouldn't still be using them. That's not to say they spend all their time looking at them, but it's a lot easier to move your eyes a bit then it is to turn your whole head around. Even in AH, it would be less disruptive and disorienting than switching your view.
Cheers,
phaetn
-
I am not -lazs-
lazs