Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Bulz on May 01, 2004, 11:49:30 AM
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There I am.. 8 kills in my Tempest rtb when I see 2 N1K's killing a teammate.. I zoom one.. He breaks left and I break right for home.. Im doing 400+. I look back and he has rolled in behind me at d600 but I am pullin away fast.. at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead.. NOW WTF IS THAT! Yancyan gives a "lol" and I give a "BS on that!". There was some very strange things going on with those Knight N1K's this morning, all in the same squad too.. I wasn't only one to say so..
Why is this flying anomaly not PERKED again? It is same ENY as F4U-C and it is perked.. And the C-hog can't do the amazing things a N1K can....
PERK IT for god's sake man!!! (hehe)
OK, now for some cheese to go with whine....
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A correction to the above is it was yancya13.. not yancyan...
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I've been saying this for the past 2 years...
Dont bother there is nothing you can say that will change HiTechs mind about this.
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niki's are chew toys, hardly worth perking.
plus he was probably up to 100-200 yds closer than you saw him.
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You were prolly less than 500 on his FE. It wasn't a Super Nikky, he got lucky. If you got hit just as you jinked, he shot you when you were flying fat happy and straight on his FE.
Got a FM2 last night in a Spitty 5 last night at 480 on my FE. He flew straight on the deck and I just lobbed them in. I was prolly 750-800 on his FE.
Subtract 300 to be safe
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Edited... giving the benefit of the doubt
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long shot kills aren't always caused by lag are they steve.....;)
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You're right Thrila! Sometimes they're the good/lucky shots of the desperate. :)
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750....800....850....lets see if i can make this p51 turn.......
Muahahaha! :)
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I was in a shallow spiral to boot. A shot for the ages.
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Wilbuz did something similar to me when i was in a spit14.
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The faster you go the closer they really are in your rear view relative to the displayed icon range.
I got popped at 800+ the other night as well while runnin runnin runnin...
It was a zeke that got me... and I was in a Typh doin well over 400, he just got a lucky shot off which happened to kill pilot I guess.
SKurj
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I've never noticed these incredible long range shots, or maybe it's just that I factor lag into any survival expectations when I see someone behind me.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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The only complaint I have about the nik(and a couple of other planes), is their ability to go about 3/4 down the runway and take off straight up. I call it the "apache" effect. Oh, and those B17's that do loop dee loops, pretty funny.
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yeah what DMF said.
beign a member of the older than dirt and been flying since beta club Ive seen some lucky shots but 99% of the time no one can hit squat on a maneuvering target beyond 700 yards.
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IMAO ... blah blah blah ...
last week i lost whole rudder in Tiffie, because of spray and pray from P47 on 1.3k
later on im diving on panzer in Tiffie (attack airplane) and panzer got my pilot in first pass and radiator.
i *****ed about sutch things 2 years ago, when i were 2 years in AH, but today ??
Im almost familiary with HT`s Ufo`s, so im having fun to cream them all over the sky.....
i remember that loong time ago when niki were fastest diving of all airplanes, it worked like this..
"Non of niki chutes will make it down"
:p
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The faster you go the closer they really are in your rear view relative to the displayed icon range.
This doesn't apply in our scenario. We were both nearly vertical and going about 150 kias..maybe less...
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I've witnessed yancya13 do several incredible things which made me strongly suspect of a hack.
Flip-of-an-eye turns followed by a big blam (not single hits) after which plane usually explodes.
Coincidence?
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I've witnessed yancya13 do several incredible things which made me strongly suspect of a hack.
Deleted, unfair speculation.
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You guys don't wanna go there.
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More deleting... speculation could be misleading in that it was based on guesses and not fact.
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Originally posted by Steve
I think he has lag issues and had learned to exploit them. It's as good as hacking, motive and results are the same.
its getting really old seing old players say this bullsht
used to be funny but its old and tired and lame as hell.
find some new excuses for your crappy flying and lack of tactical and stick and rudder skill.
because of idiots like you there are noobs that seriously believe I was banned for cheating. (I get asked this all the time!!! and im sick of it! I was never banned! when you get banned for somthing your gone forever and you dotn come back.)
now your making character assasinations on other fair players.
are you trying to compensate for your lack of flying skill with adept character assasinations?
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its getting really old seing old players say this bullsht used to be funny but its old and tired and lame as hell.
find some new excuses for your crappy flying and lack of tactical and stick and rudder skill.
More editing... I lost my temper and behaved badly.
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I am nobody
and I am telling you to cease and desist for your own good
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Edited out.
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lol steve im in the DA come on over.
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Originally posted by Citabria
because of idiots like you there are noobs that seriously believe I was banned for cheating. (I get asked this all the time!!! and im sick of it!)
LOL what a n00bs....
everybody knows that you got banned coz you raped HT`s private sheep
... two times in the row
poor sheep
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Originally posted by Bulz
There I am.. 8 kills in my Tempest rtb when I see 2 N1K's killing a teammate.. I zoom one.. He breaks left and I break right for home.. Im doing 400+. I look back and he has rolled in behind me at d600 but I am pullin away fast.. at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead.. NOW WTF IS THAT! Yancyan gives a "lol" and I give a "BS on that!". There was some very strange things going on with those Knight N1K's this morning, all in the same squad too.. I wasn't only one to say so..
Why is this flying anomaly not PERKED again? It is same ENY as F4U-C and it is perked.. And the C-hog can't do the amazing things a N1K can....
PERK IT for god's sake man!!! (hehe)
OK, now for some cheese to go with whine....
well yes, the nik was the most used plane in WWII, they have millions of them flying each day to kill all invading American planes.......thats why they not perked...no wait......thats wrong.
Ok HTC, why ISNT it perked? as he said the F4U-C is perked, the temp is perked, WHY isnt the NIK??
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RedTop has 30 Kills of N1K2
RedTop has 10 Deaths by N1K2
This is why it's not perked. As bad as I am...I can kill em. I would bet that of the 10 kills there , that 6 of them were by being snuck up on and not using good SA. Tukiyo or Tatyu I forget which one...Killed me 4 times the other day. NONE of the kills did I see anything other than him flat whoopin my rear. Perk the NIK and youll see even more Spit IX's and LA7's than now.
I fly Spit V 95 percent of the time. NIK's aren't uber...just have to take your time in killing them sometimes. I'll admit they are a pain..but I don't think they are Uber like some say.
Just my 2 Cents:)
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Nikis are cool perk generators
I had
62 kills on them and 8 deaths during tour 22
62 kills on them and 10 deaths during tour 23
and last tour 22 / 2
keep Niki free and lower his Eny :D
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My apolgies, truly sincere, for all of those in this thread. As someone who has been around here for a while, I should know that my speculation may give rise to others to assume that which I was speculating about must be true. I should have kept my mouth shut. I hope you all will forgive me.
Fester, my direct apology to you. When attacked(even sometimes when it's a just attack) I tend to get defensive. I behaved badly and I regret my words. I am sorry.
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Originally posted by Steve
My apolgies, truly sincere, for all of those in this thread. As someone who has been around here for a while, I should know that my speculation may give rise to others to assume that which I was speculating about must be true. I should have kept my mouth shut. I hope you all will forgive me.
Fester, my direct apology to you. When attacked(even sometimes when it's a just attack) I tend to get defensive. I behaved badly and I regret my words. I am sorry.
Nice Bud:D :aok
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S! steve!
its just best to avoid speculation like that because others may believe its based on fact.
I used to laugh and find it amusing when people acused me of cheating because I knew I outflew them fair and square and they were frustrated and confused. so I never gave it much thought even when an old player who had been calling me such things for years I figured everyone knew better than to honestly believe such nonsense.
but that changed for me the other week.
I was in the Combat Theatre and not once but twice on two separate occasions, different new players who I did not know contacted me on private channel and asked me if I was banned for cheating and the reason i make maps is so i can cheat on them!!! they honestly believed there was truth in the rumor! I was blown away by this. It was infuriating to me to find that there are people who spread this rumor insinuating that all the hard work I put into building new terrains was for such reasons.
I was very upset by this.
now when I see it happening to someone else I have flown with and against for years and to think the same character assasination is going to happen to them byt someone starting a simple rumor. I get very mad.
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I've flown against this squad alot when I was bish and had my arse handed to me many times and never saw warps or lag or anything strange.
It seems to me that you'll get more problems fighting someone in the next street on a dodgy dial-up than someone half way round the world with a decent connection.
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Yo BULZ,
Those mornings when I have time to "fly", as a Knight I often run across Yancya13, Taki and a number of Pacific rim folks who fly Niks almost exclusively. Because they DO, they know the ride inside and out...and rack up kills by the score. Never have I ever seen them do anything other than perform outstanding SA & gunnery skills. Ya lost a Tempest...oh well. Next time try film/view before dredging up the old 'n tired "hack-cheat" crap.
Wanna perk the Nik? Fine; make it half of whatever the La7 ends up with.
DmdMax
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I no longer fly during the day b/c all the Japs are on flying Jap planes, whether its lag or hacks who knows but their planes sure do some funny things
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citabria
Maybe the rumors of your cheating have to do with some of the unethical things you've done like switching countrys and using your rank to contol the cv's to the detriment of said country. People remember things like that and it gets talked about. Some consider that a form of cheating, maybe they feel those type of actions show an inclination to do other underhanded things.
Just sayin, you reap what you sow.
cars
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800+ yards? Say half a mile, it sounds better.... it's silly when you get pings from up to 1200 yards, especially from .50s
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IMAO cars
:rofl
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Originally posted by Replicant
800+ yards? Say half a mile, it sounds better.... it's silly when you get pings from up to 1200 yards, especially from .50s
even .22 caliber bullets come with a warning "dangerous up to 1 mile" on the box.
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lol shane i probably didnt mentioned, that i werent chute....
i were in solid attack airplane
well may be not that solid :D
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I've witnessed yancya13 do several incredible things which made me strongly suspect of a hack.
Flip-of-an-eye turns followed by a big blam (not single hits) after which plane usually explodes.
Coincidence?
im just a newbie but i would say those japanese guys are NOT cheating! as a knight i have sen them in action and IMHO they are just damn fine pilots and living proof of the oriental perfectionist mentality
<> to all you japs and anyone else who prompts people to suggest cheating becuase of superb pilot skills :aok
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Originally posted by deknuf
I no longer fly during the day b/c all the Japs are on flying Jap planes, whether its lag or hacks who knows but their planes sure do some funny things
and more importantly: THIS ATTITUDE IS STINKING OF SORE LOOSER!
no offence to you but come on... how will you ever improve if yopu dont fly against better pilots? i regularly get minced by the rook and bish aces (notably ExtrmeJ, YUCCA, Morpheus, Etc) and it only serves to make me practice harder and come back to find them. i dont mean to be a goody-goody, and believe me im not one, but there is a very forgiving elemnt to our virtual dogfighting: After you die you get to try again!:D you have nothing to lose so just come back here and eat some more lead you whimp :D
"whether its lags or hacks" you have surely left out the most likely: Damn fine flying?
if your scared of the so called 'dweeb' planes, then either fly one, or grab some more altitude
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Originally posted by Citabria
its getting really old seing old players say this bullsht
used to be funny but its old and tired and lame as hell.
find some new excuses for your crappy flying and lack of tactical and stick and rudder skill.
because of idiots like you there are noobs that seriously believe I was banned for cheating. (I get asked this all the time!!! and im sick of it!)
now your making character assasinations on other fair players.
are you trying to compensate for your lack of flying skill with adept character assasinations?
You where banned? I did not know that...what for?
heard a couple of newbies talking smack on vox {bish side} about how u make maps {fester ma} and well lets just say they Insinuated a few things. I aint been around that long but I blasted them for this. I think ur a damn good stick fes and a most excellent map maker and i agree these whines and threads that discuss less than honorable playing styles really need to stop. it's getting really old. Besides Hightech and crew ARE the sharpest tools in this particular shed and prolly check things out on a regular basis...I know I would
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
You where banned? I did not know that...what for?
heard a couple of newbies talking smack on vox {bish side} about how u make maps {fester ma} and well lets just say they Insinuated a few things. I aint been around that long but I blasted them for this. I think ur a damn good stick fes and a most excellent map maker and i agree these whines and threads that discuss less than honorable playing styles really need to stop. it's getting really old. Besides Hightech and crew ARE the sharpest tools in this particular shed and prolly check things out on a regular basis...I know I would
no. I was never was banned.
that is part of the rumor mill.
and yes HTC is extremely adept at catching such deviants.
they are banned forever and never return.
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Originally posted by cars
citabria
Maybe the rumors of your cheating have to do with some of the unethical things you've done like switching countrys and using your rank to contol the cv's to the detriment of said country. People remember things like that and it gets talked about. Some consider that a form of cheating, maybe they feel those type of actions show an inclination to do other underhanded things.
Just sayin, you reap what you sow.
cars
I would think that such blatent things would be evidence to the contrary. it would make clear I have no intent of hiding my actions and while some do such carrier sinkings stealthily I get in their faces and piss everyone hiding the carrier off. And I don't do this anymore for the reasons you said, but I have sunk many hidden carriers in the past. It is indeed an underhanded method to counter a cowardly underhanded tactic. and I appologize for doing this.
the Irony of it I realized is the hidden carriers actually rally the country without them to attack the country hiding them without any need for sidechanging tactics.
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Festabria, shut up, you lousy 2-weeker!
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shutting up sir
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Jeez, you can't hit anything past 700?
I'm lucky if I hit something at 300.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
I've witnessed yancya13 do several incredible things which made me strongly suspect of a hack.
Flip-of-an-eye turns followed by a big blam (not single hits) after which plane usually explodes.
Coincidence?
factor in lag and pilot skill and you'll figure out why Bulz got shot down.
ack-ack
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cit,
I didn't mean to imply that I think you cheat. I've flown with you and against you for quite a while now and you're one of the last I would ever suspect of cheating. If you gave up a carrier that was being hidden, . I think hiding a carrier is also an unethical thing to do. I'm talking about taking control of a carrier that was being used for an assault and redirecting it to another course. Thats the only one I can personally say I saw. Now when you switch countrys, the first thing that comes to mind is, whats he gonna mess with? To you and many others I'm sure thats not cheating, and technically it isn't or it wouldn't be possible, there would be a delay to prevent that built into the game. It's just that IMHO, the personal value system that allows that kind of action isn't that far removed, so possibly others feel that way as well. But...... its just a game so none of it really matters to me. I was just tryin to give you a possible reason that the rumors of cheating may follow you.
Taki and crew don't need to cheat, they're some of the best in the game and its always frustrating/fun to fight them, just don't plan on winning, they use the dreaded "fly smart" technique.
cars
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cars I don't take over CV's being used for an attack unless I have a better offensive tactical use for them which in my opinion if i am ranked higher than the current cv captain I have no problem taking it over and using it in a way I find more effective. thats the privlege of having a higher rank and thats ethical and legal thing to do.
everything bad you have heard about me and hijacking carriers is based on people hiding carriers. not on people using them offensively.
you might notice on festerma and ozkansas hiding carriers dosnt happen very often. there is a reason for this and it was a deliberate setup that is quite subtle and very confusing to a would be carrier hider.
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Originally posted by Citabria
cars I don't take over CV's being used for an attack unless I have a better offensive tactical use for them which in my opinion if i am ranked higher than the current cv captain I have no problem taking it over and using it in a way I find more effective. thats the privlege of having a higher rank and thats ethical and legal thing to do.
everything bad you have heard about me and hijacking carriers is based on people hiding carriers. not on people using them offensively.
you might notice on festerma and ozkansas hiding carriers dosnt happen very often. there is a reason for this and it was a deliberate setup that is quite subtle and very confusing to a would be carrier hider.
well said, but when you change country to get a rook cv back it is a bit lame...
anyway i hate this CV hiding business........
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so do I
thats why I thought hard on how to make cv's hard to hide.
and I figured out a good simple way and it works well on festerma and ozkansas.
all I did was scramble the cv numbers for all countries so they dont match any port or any country.
no one knows which CV to hide most of the time, I numbered them and even i cant remember which one goes where hehe.
so it clearly is very effective.
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cit,
I'm sorry you seem to be missing what I said. By personal knowledge, I mean I know of at least one time that you SWITCHED SIDES and took control of a carrier that was being used, and diverted it so it couldn't be used to attack the country you SWITCHED FROM. This isn't something I heard about, I was one of the people using the cv when you did it. I don't mind someone of higher rank taking control, I couldn't care less where a cv goes. Anyway, I'm not gonna debate it with ya. The people that were on that cv group know what you did and it was lame, not cheating, but lame.....showing questionable character that MAY not be all that different from the mindset of a cheater. I don't give a rats bellybutton what you do, its your business, you wondered why people think you may cheat. I just tried to clarify it for you.
BTW thanks for all the time and effort you put into the game making maps. Yours are some of the most fun.
cars
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Originally posted by Overlag
well said, but when you change country to get a rook cv back it is a bit lame...
Thats proper patriotism :D
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Originally posted by Citabria
so do I
thats why I thought hard on how to make cv's hard to hide.
and I figured out a good simple way and it works well on festerma and ozkansas.
all I did was scramble the cv numbers for all countries so they dont match any port or any country.
no one knows which CV to hide most of the time, I numbered them and even i cant remember which one goes where hehe.
so it clearly is very effective.
yup, thanks for that :aok :D
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Why is there no middle ground that this issue can come to?Obviously there is a problem. Just because one person has never experienced a problem with certain players doesnt mean another hasnt. Network charcteristics vary dramatically in different locations. I will agree that alot of guys use exuses for there crappy flying, but there are some real problems. Shane said that targets aften appear 100-200k from where they actually are. I agree completely, and coupled with good stick, can be major advantage. Just part of the game I know but when someone voices a concern why is he always called a "whiner" and "sore loser"?
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Well, let's put it like this:
The N1K2 can do amazing things that cannot be done by let's say my favourite P-51B. If this is realistic I don't know, I'm not a pilot nor a historian nor an aeronautical engineer.
I suck in the N1K2 'cause I don't have the SA for dogfighting and I don't wanna die. This makes me pretty envious when I see people who can fight in it and land kills.
I am a shameless cherry picker and after 1.5 years of flying pretty reasonable while still being far removed from the real aces. This also means I'm an alt monkey. Furthermore I live in Europe so my K/H sucks BIGTIME.
The N1K2 is easy to fly, has firepower and ammo to spare. Lots of kills are the result, much more than you will get when you fly the P-51B like I do. I don't mind that, it's the playing style I choose. If I furball with my average skills I still get more kills in the N1K2 than in the P-51B.
So far so good.
However an example: I take off and climb to 17K. Takes a while. Fly to nearest NME airfield. Get two kills, glide back and land due to radiator damage. Take off again, do the same. get a kill and an assist, then collide with a D9 and die. During the same timespan I see one of the mentioned Japanese pilots land a 13 and a 8 sortie kill in a N1K2!!! To be frank, he must have been EXTREMELY lucky or UNBELIEVABLY good to achieve such a thing. I never encountered even an opportunity to do that, not even in a fully loaded A8, P-47, N1K2, C-Hog, whatever and the juiciest vulch ever.
I do not pass judgement, I only express my disbelief and considerable annoyance.
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Originally posted by Citabria
its getting really old seing old players say this bullsht
are you trying to compensate for your lack of flying skill with adept character assasinations?
I thing you meant "inept". :D
I'll pistol whip the next one of ya who says the word cheat! Or at the very least get very very angly when you shoot me down. :lol
I've been hosed from 1.4k out before. As the french say:
"Le *****, she happens."
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Originally posted by nopoop
You were prolly less than 500 on his FE. It wasn't a Super Nikky, he got lucky. If you got hit just as you jinked, he shot you when you were flying fat happy and straight on his FE.
I was in battle with Taki's Tyrants the other week. Many of their kills came from situations like the one described in the initial whine in this thread. A N1K would come at me as if to HO, and then as I avoided it by going underneath, he'd flip over and shoot me from 800 yards. And no, it was not 500 yards on his FE. I gave a "WTG on the 800 yard laser shot!", and the guy replied "it was 861 yards on my FE!". It might even have been Yancya13 himself, busa01 or one of those guys.
Bottom line is that realistic gunnery (100-200yds) would probably cause the rate of new AH subscriptions to drop off. :p
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I usually fly early am Sat and Sun (West Coast time) and occasionally stumble into the niki boys. This past Sunday was one of those times. First was on the furball island. Knight niki’s coming towards the rook vh. Got killed several times and left the area trying to decide which excuse I was going to use for getting chased from the island.
Went down to a rook cv that was adjacent to a Knight field, nice green bar on dar, no red bar. Rooks had set up a vulch, seemed like a good place to re-inflate my ego.
Well, me and the rest of the rooks lost control of the situation and the fight went out over the water. Then them dang niki’s start upping. There us rooks were, in hogs, cats, and spits, low slow, trying verticals, and doing conga lines. There the niki’s were, low, faster, doing the verticals, and them stinking barrel rolls they love. They were also working as a team. Twice I saw a niki break off a certain kill to help another niki. Rook planes were popping and dropping. Niki’s with multi kills landed.
If the enemy (and me) are going to put things on a platter for them like that, I’m surprised they are limited to two digit kill sorties.
Just another version of the niki story.
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I think HT should give them a ki84.
more uber speed less uber ammo supply and guns
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n1ks and there rice paper armour are easy to kill...and ive seen less "impossible" shots from a n1k than i have from anything with hispanos...heck during the first year or so of play (when i was flying the hurri2c a lot) i got most kills with about 14 rounds from a average distance of d600 from my perspective...
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While flying mornings I generally run into the N1k club.
All are good pilots.....they get me, I get them. Never saw
anything I would call suspicious. Busa, Yancya13, and Taki etc.
been around a long time.....employ very good ACM and work
very well together. They tax your ACM....if it's poor you're going
to the Tower.....simple.
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Saw Taki land many multiple kill sorties last night in a CHog.
Granted its a cannon plane like the N1K, but thats where the similarities end with those 2 planes.
Multiples ... like 8, 9, 7, etc. The man knows how to fly ... its not the machine.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Multiples ... like 8, 9, 7, etc. The man knows how to fly ... its not the machine.
I've landed numerous 8 kill sorties in a Chog - most was 13. Does that mean I know how to fly, or was it the plane?
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it means you know how to vulch/cherry a capped base in one is all.
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Originally posted by Shane
it means you know how to vulch/cherry a capped base in one is all.
Slapshot - did you hear that?
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it applies to Taki, too... :D
he's good with wingies and also has a fairly good clue about acm in general, tho' - no slouch and not afraid to mix it up, unlike some we could name. :aok
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Flying Niks, winging together is ubber easy no matter which way you dice it... Sure the plane is only a 1/4 of the equation. (and I am not knocking Taki and Co's flying, they are a good bunch of guys)
Can you imagine the uproar if the NIK was perked... Even if many of these NIk sticks had 1000's of perks... It be mayham... Many ticked off individuals. Why the NIK is perked and not the Chog I do not know and still ask that very question to this very day... HiTech, seems to think it should be perked (the chog) so if he thinks so... Well... What else needs to be said on that...? Or could be said for that matter...? I disagree with his reasoning for what it is worth, but respect the fact that it is his game so I wont take it any further than that...
My point is if the CHOG is perk material the the NIK is as well...
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Its got 900 cannon rounds, its mobile and its one of the best turn fighters in the game. Like morph said, keeping with what was done with the other planes, this one deserves at least a small perk. Its fine to say la7 needs to be perked, but in a la7, you have HALF the cannon rounds as you do in a N1k.
As far as the thread starter losing his tempest, well I'm sorry man, but if you try and BnZ those Pacific Rim N1k drivers, you better get him. I've had yancy13 barrell roll and pop right up on my 6, about d600 out after I lit him up in an f6f. He was low and slow on the deck, thought it was an easy kill, he took some good hits, but he flipped that thing over and came right up behind me and hit me from a good distance away. Best advice if you find yourself in that situation again is don't fly straight =) Good luck in the future though.
BTW Shane, I liked the .22 caliber reference :lol
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Originally posted by Replicant
800+ yards? Say half a mile, it sounds better.... it's silly when you get pings from up to 1200 yards, especially from .50s
Snipers in the military and sharp shooters who do this for a sport can hit a 1 foot square target with ease at over 1 mile. THATs fight sports fans... Carlos Hathcock, a marine sniper in the Viet Nam war modified an M60 machine gun so that he was able to fire only 1 round at a time. He mounted a 4 power unertl scope on the top of this monster.
From the top of a moutain he could EFFECTIVLY make 1 shot kills. Having 93 confirmed kills total for his military career. This was in no way all done with this modified 50cal machine gun. But many of those C/K's where taken with that M60... 1 Shot kills mind you. Dont underestemate the power of a 50 cal MG round. They are deadly accurate. They have a very flat trajectory in relation to cannons and more often than not a very high velocity compared to cannons.
Do a bit of research on todays new era of snipers in the military. It will BLOW your mind to find out what they are using and how effective it is. You will find a big trend with the 50cal sniper rifle.
What all that says is for a 50cal plane to land hits on you from 800+ yards out is no mirical. Its no big deal. Its the way it should be.
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"My point is if the CHOG is perk material the the NIK is as well..."
Chog's a lot more plane than the N1k. But I also think that the CHog shouldn't be perked anyway, as low as the perkie is on it. What's the point?
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Originally posted by kj714
"My point is if the CHOG is perk material the the NIK is as well..."
Chog's a lot more plane than the N1k. But I also think that the CHog shouldn't be perked anyway, as low as the perkie is on it. What's the point?
it supposedly keeps the total noobs out of them and lessens (ha, ha) their ability to become JoustHoDweebs. or at least *dangerous* ones.
:D
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Originally posted by Shane
it applies to Taki, too... :D
he's good with wingies and also has a fairly good clue about acm in general, tho' - no slouch and not afraid to mix it up, unlike some we could name. :aok
Beet1e ... did ya hear that ? ... ;)
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Originally posted by kj714
"My point is if the CHOG is perk material the the NIK is as well..."
Chog's a lot more plane than the N1k. But I also think that the CHog shouldn't be perked anyway, as low as the perkie is on it. What's the point?
The Chog can climb with the NIK? Can turn with the NIK?
"Whats the point?" Did you read anything of what I wrote? I mean really?
The purpose of everything I said was to get the point across that the NIK, tho it is not the "best" plane in the game;standing side by side with the Chog, it should be perked by Hitech if the Chog is perked. EIther that or unperk the Chog.
What is it? Is there some magical and mystical ability that the Chog has that I dont know about for it to be perked and the Nik not to be??? If there is clue me in on it right now because put the two plane together in a fight, the NIK is going to rip the Chog up down left and right... So whats the big deal with the CHog that it has to be perked?
Its not fast in comparison, its guns are very effective but no more so than the NIKs. It cant turn worth SQUAT compared to the NIK.... So can someone PLEASE clue me in here???
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Flown properly, a co-e/co-alt f4uC will eat the niki's lunch.
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"So can someone PLEASE clue me in here???"
From what I have read on this board, about its past history, is it is perked not only for its abilities, but more so on its over-abundance when first introduced, and its abilities.
I guess the arena was filled with CHogs at one time, hence the perk to cut the numbers down.
Some will say ... "Well there are N1Ks all over the place too", but from what I have read, the abudance of N1Ks as we see now, is nowhere near what was seen with the CHog then.
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Sorry Morph, didn't mean to step on the hallowed ground.
*IMHO*, the Chog has some advantages over the N1k, but it depends how you fly it. I agree that the Chog shouldn't be perked, but I accept Shane's explanation for the perking.
Edited - Slapshot's probably got a piece of the puzzle there too.
I've always believed the N1k isn't perked chiefly because it's rather fragile and other than ammo, it isn't vastly superior to the other planes in it's abilities.
Oh, BTW, when I asked "what's the point?", I meant what's the point of perking it with like 20 perks or whatever it's got, who doesn't have that in the bank?
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The best planes in the arena out-turn what they can't out-run and out-run what they can't out-turn. Examples would be Spit V and La7. The Niki has neither capability, though close enough to catch the unwary. The F4U-C has the speed to get away as long as you keep your SA up, and an initial turn rate good enough to fry even the best turners with a good shot.
g00b
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Originally posted by g00b
Flown properly, a co-e/co-alt f4uC will eat the niki's lunch.
Prove it... I'll even be your test specimen.
Sorry Morph, didn't mean to step on the hallowed ground of your opinion turf.
And how does what you've stated now and in your previous posts make your argument a more solid one? You are saying the Chog has advantages; over the NIK. Hmmm I'll get into those in a minute but give me a minute.
Chog's a lot more plane than the N1k
Ummmmm Show me... Tell me... Prove it...
the Chog has some advantages over the N1k,
And those would be....?
Its amazing ability to dive? then what? Super...
I just out dove another plane, but while he's still highter than me, now has potential E on me as well... But Im going super fast on the deck so i can run home now... Fly a P38, everyones going to try to out dive you when they lose they advantage. But before long after they've dove to the deck... They are stuck. No alt, the only E they have it what little is left from the dive and their planes ability to retain it. Big deal... so you play your cards, get to a suitble alt to dive on the con and kill him because he was a dummy and dove to the deck...
I've seen Niks dive, hang with other planes that are saposed to be these "great" diving planes. Stable, controlable blah blah balh... And about half way through that dive they explode because the NIk trailing them in the dive is doing it with ease... So we can't say the NIK isnt' a stable dive platform.
it isn't vastly superior to the other planes in it's abilities
And the F4U-C is?!?
I have nothing going for the F4U-C. I really dont like the plane to be honest with you. The fact that it is perked and the NIK is not just burns me. The Nik is everything the Chog was before it was fixed, and more. Why one remains perked and the other does not, simply does not make sence.
When things dont make sence to me I do everything I can to try and figure them out. I am not trying to attack you KJ, so please do look at it that way. I just simply do not understand why these two planes are either both unperked or perked... Either way I do not care. I just want to know.
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Oh, BTW, when I asked "what's the point?", I meant what's the point of perking it with like 20 perks or whatever it's got, who doesn't have that in the bank?
Its for the principal of the matter
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"*IMHO*, the Chog has some advantages over the N1k, but it depends how you fly it. I agree that the Chog shouldn't be perked, but I accept Shane's explanation for the perking.
Edited - Slapshot's probably got a piece of the puzzle there too."
I agree with ya, Morph. Never understood why Chog's perked either.
Gotta get back to work, see ya in the MA.
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The F4U-1C possesses better guns with better ballistics than the N1K and a comparable ammo load. In addition, the F4U-1C can take off from land or sea, equip rockets, and equip up to 2000 pounds of bombs. It's also tougher than a N1K.
In other words, the F4U-1C is a far better all-around plane than the N1K, and for that it would probably become an instant top 3 plane if unperked. You can literallly use it in any situation for any kind of task. The N1K cannot compare.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Both the given examples, the Spit V and LA7 will SPANK the NIKI. So if you perk the NIKI there's gonna be a whole snowball thing started...
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ROFL Shane! & Slapshot!- I should be flattered you did not modify your thesis! I had a good air combat session with Taki et al a few weeks ago - all of it below 5K. Of course, it has to be remembered that my plane the F4U simply isn't a mix-it-up plane in the way the N1K is or can be - a subject now being debated by Morph and g00b. I tend to agree with Morph. But my viewpoint is subject to change - upon presentation of film evidence that demonstrates otherwise.
Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Snipers in the military and sharp shooters who do this for a sport can hit a 1 foot square target with ease at over 1 mile. THATs fight sports fans... Carlos Hathcock, a marine sniper in the Viet Nam war modified an M60 machine gun so that he was able to fire only 1 round at a time. He mounted a 4 power unertl scope on the top of this monster.
From the top of a moutain he could EFFECTIVLY make 1 shot kills. Having 93 confirmed kills total for his military career. This was in no way all done with this modified 50cal machine gun. But many of those C/K's where taken with that M60... 1 Shot kills mind you. Dont underestemate the power of a 50 cal MG round. They are deadly accurate. They have a very flat trajectory in relation to cannons and more often than not a very high velocity compared to cannons.
Do a bit of research on todays new era of snipers in the military. It will BLOW your mind to find out what they are using and how effective it is. You will find a big trend with the 50cal sniper rifle.
What all that says is for a 50cal plane to land hits on you from 800+ yards out is no mirical. Its no big deal. Its the way it should be.
Morph - all understood. You finish by talking about the .50 cal round. But the N1K has only cannon, and the trajectory would drop much sooner than for a .50 cal, which would fly much better. Maybe the CHOG cannon in AH is overmodelled; even I can hit stuff with that at 600+ yards, and get kills.
I think you're missing something in your comparison with a plane armed with machine guns versus a M60 converted to single shot. Dispersion. We all know how the multiple gun platform is designed to have a convergence point at which the damage inflicted will be the greatest. I have read Col. Francis Gabreski's autobiography, and in it he mentions the awesome power of those 8x50 cal. of his P47, and their ability to shred up the enemy if he got in close to the target. Beyond convergence range, the rounds would be diverging, and dispersion which was designed into a rapid fire weapon like a .50 cal machine gun would mean that at 800 yards, the odd lucky hit might be possible, but shearing off a con's wing would be most unlikely, especially as much of the kinetic energy would be spent by that time. As for one bullet pilot kills, maybe. But our planes had pilot armour. (I realise that Japanese WW2 fighter planes did not) So from behind, I think a pilot kill would be doubtful and an extreme fluke at 800 yards from behind.
CHOG perkage goes back before my time, but in my view the CHOG pays its own way in perks, what with all those 300' CV-suicide LANC and ju88 formations. But lately I've been finding that the F4U1D can be almost as effective, and seems to fly better - feels lighter...(?) I don't have any strong views on CHOG perkage. However, I do feel that 70pp is WAY over the top for an F4U-4.
Back on topic about N1Ks: Earlier today, I set up AH2 and did some double dweebery tests. Double dweebery because 1)I flew a N1K, and 2)I shot at the drones from 800 yards. :lol Obviously I am no N1K expert, never having flown one online. But I wanted to do some gunnery tests. And I found could not get hits at 800 or even 600 yards - even cheating by zooming the view. I needed to wait until 400/200 before firing. BUT... on one test, I did get the drone trailing white smoke with a lucky 800 yard shot. From all the accounts I've read, this is much closer to reality than routinely destroying planes at 800 yards. I would have posted the film of these tests, but AH2 films are not compatible with the AH1 viewer, and I don't think there is a AH2 film viewer.
If my interpretation is correct, there's going to be the mother of all gunnery whinefests when AH2 is deployed.
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The M60 is a 7.62mm machine gun, the .50 is an M2. It doesn't help your argument if you don't get you facts right.
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Preciate the reply bettle :)
Well starting with the first thing that sticks out in my mind.
I do feel that 70pp is WAY over the top for an F4U-4.
Couldn't agree more and could go on and on for hours about why but thats for another thread.
Morph - all understood. You finish by talking about the .50 cal round. But the N1K has only cannon, and the trajectory would drop much sooner than for a .50 cal, which would fly much better. Maybe the CHOG cannon in AH is overmodelled; even I can hit stuff with that at 600+ yards, and get kills.
My explanation of the 50 cal was for this in reply to this Beetlebug...
it's silly when you get pings from up to 1200 yards, especially from .50s
key word here beetle... "pings" now keep that in mind and in context and read on.
I think you're missing something in your comparison with a plane armed with machine guns versus a M60 converted to single shot. Dispersion.
No I think you are missing the point I am trying to make and think that I am trying to make another... What I am saying is that a 50cal has the balls behind it to travle over a mile. So for someone to be surprise to get pinged from 800+yards out is a little silly. Not just from one M2 MG mind you (which was for a simple example of the ability the 50BMG round has to reach out and touch you)... But as you put it 8x50cals throwing lead out everywhere infront of them. One is bound to get hits from those distances and its been documented...
And again beetle. Please dont misinturprate what I am saying.
We are not talkinga bout downing a plane at 800+yards out. We are simply talking ping.. 1,2 maybe more but much more than that I we are not... Where you came up with this whole cannons Vs MG thing is not where I was taking that... And if you will read through my posts and keep them in context you will understand and see that I was infact not making the points nor comparisons you said I was.
If you spray hundreds out MG rounds at a con flying nice and lvl, or banking at 800+ yards out... There is no luck going to be invovled with getting pings on the plane like Replicant described.
Set the cross hairs on the mark... Let the trigger rip, wiggle the rudder a bit back and forth and YEAH BABY we're spraying with the best of em!!! (Rudder is used to compesate for already converged rounds that are passing over one another and on their way out to the outside of the con)
Back on topic about N1Ks: Earlier today, I set up AH2 and did some double dweebery tests. Double dweebery because 1)I flew a N1K, and 2)I shot at the drones from 800 yards. Obviously I am no N1K expert, never having flown one online. But I wanted to do some gunnery tests. And I found could not get hits at 800 or even 600 yards - even cheating by zooming the view. I needed to wait until 400/200 before firing. BUT... on one test, I did get the drone trailing white smoke with a lucky 800 yard shot. From all the accounts I've read, this is much closer to reality than routinely destroying planes at 800 yards. I would have posted the film of these tests, but AH2 films are not compatible with the AH1 viewer, and I don't think there is a AH2 film viewer.
Back on topic? This has to do with AH1... Not AH2... Now you are comparing AH1 to AH2 which is entirely off topic even if it is comparing the same planes in your "test". You even said it all in this long statment. Read through and see. AH1 and AH2 are different... Otherwise you wouldn't have said this.......
If my interpretation is correct, there's going to be the mother of all gunnery whinefests when AH2 is deployed.
So then that makes this.... Your film...
upon presentation of film evidence that demonstrates otherwise.
Not vailid.
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Originally posted by Phantom4-Mag33
The M60 is a 7.62mm machine gun, the .50 is an M2. It doesn't help your argument if you don't get you facts right.
Forgive me. Was at work and almost pressed for time. Here is my documented source. Book entitled "Marine Sniper" writen by Charles Henderson documenting Sgt. Carlos Hathnoodles Military career.
There is a chapter in this book that talks about this gun. And his documented confirmed kill at over 2500 yards... Do the math. Thats over a mile away. Well over a mile.
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One persons view on why an F4U-1C is perked and an N1K2 isn't
Phantom4 in FM2 against N1k2 and against F4U-1C
tour 50 5/1 0/2
tour 49 25/8 2/4
tour 48 23/14 2/5
tour 47 27/8 1/2
tour 46 13/6 1/5
tour 45 22/10 1/2
tour 44 10/6 1/6
tour 43 54/23 8/14
I would much rather fight N1K2's than F4u-1c
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Morph - we're perhaps both guilty of wandering off topic a little - and I have had no wine today! The discussion about .50 cals does not belong in a thread about N1Ks, but no matter. Yes indeed, I've had pings at 1000/1100 yards - me in a F6F and the bogie in a 109. I got a clean kill! Total BS if you ask me.
When I said about getting back on topic I was referring to the original post by Bulz about N1Ks...Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.
So then my observations about AH2 were simply to reassure Bulz that (IMO) the gunnery model is moving in the right direction with AH2. Set the cross hairs on the mark... Let the trigger rip, wiggle the rudder a bit back and forth and YEAH BABY we're spraying with the best of em!!!
I tried all that in AH2. Didn't get me any hits.
Do me a favour, Morph. I do believe you have AH2 set up. Could you try the N1k 800yd spray test in there and report back? Not wanting to have a pissing contest; just interested in someone else's findings.
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Hey - I ain't saying that marine snipers aren't good are that they can't get kills at ranges greater than a mile. I am an ex-marine and have fired both the M60 and the M2. The .50 is an incredible long range weapon and has plenty energy to do serious damage at 1500 and even 2000 yrds. It is however much easier to hit stationary (or slow moving) targets from a fixed ground mounted tripod than a fast moving target from a maneuvering aircraft with somewhat flexible wings.
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Originally posted by Phantom4-Mag33
One persons view on why an F4U-1C is perked and an N1K2 isn't
Phantom4 in FM2 against N1k2 and against F4U-1C
tour 50 5/1 0/2
tour 49 25/8 2/4
tour 48 23/14 2/5
tour 47 27/8 1/2
tour 46 13/6 1/5
tour 45 22/10 1/2
tour 44 10/6 1/6
tour 43 54/23 8/14
I would much rather fight N1K2's than F4u-1c
So you are saying that the F4U1C out turns N1Ks? Please:rolleyes:
FM2 is one of the most ubber little turn fighters in the game. Add to that massive furballs with NIKs clutting up the bunch its no suprise nor a big thing to kill a NIK. Not degrading your accomplishments Phantom mind you but what you are saying simply does not make sense to me.
You'd rather right a plane that turns better? The NIK? Than a plane that for the most part at a low energy state cant turn for squat?!?
Please think about that for a moment... I dont think you understand what you've just said. Big deal its got guns that kill anything it hits. What good are they if they can't get aimed at you? The Niks guns are much more easily manuvered on to you than an CHOG in a turn fight... And you cannot argue that last point. I mean a turn fight... Not some silly one maybe 2 high energy turns that any plane in the game can do.
Do me a favour, Morph. I do believe you have AH2 set up. Could you try the N1k 800yd spray test in there and report back? Not wanting to have a pissing contest; just interested in someone else's findings.
I have Ah2 set up yes. I would think the test would be much better if you and I get in there and perform it together if you really want to find out what the gunnery is like. I've been curious as to how it compars to AH1 myself. Call me out in the MA anytime you want. I am in there right now as a matter of fact. I find AH2 very enjoyable because there are many things that are new and need to be learned.
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No - just showing that I can maintain a much higher kill to death ratio against nikis(2.33) than against chogs(.5). As I said, it is just one mans perspective. A chog is not a turn fighter but flying chogs and keeping them fast, using decent B n Z tactics, it is a much superior fighter to the niki. Hey Nikis will turn try and turn fight with an FM2 - chogs don't they just B n Z you to death. On the other hand if you can get some fool in a chog to try and turn with ya, Well that is another story.
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Chog takes like day and a half to reach 15k...niki raises wheels and starts dogfiting. (DONT see too many guys uppin hog at capped base--the one plane that often manages to bust a up a good vulch is niki) Hog has to up a sector or 2 back, else get caught by niki dwweb on climbout---hard to use it to defend cv as it grabs so fediddleing slow---only can kill niki if it has setup to b and z it---if its coalt with niki, its helpless (unless niki is new guy, like many are)
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
You'd rather right a plane that turns better? The NIK? Than a plane that for the most part at a low energy state cant turn for squat?!?
If I'm in a Spit V, I'd prefer to face a N1K any day of the week rather than an F4U-1C.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
If I'm in a Spit V, I'd prefer to face a N1K any day of the week rather than an F4U-1C.
-- Todd/Leviathn
In a turn fight????? Common Levi. I dont know what point you are trying to make but you are going about it in the wrong way...
You cant sit there and honestly tell me that in a turn fight as I stated and as you even quoted me on that a Chog is more deadly than a NIK in a low energy turn fight... I dont care how much flying time you have. Thats a fact. The Nik will chew the CHog up in a fight such as that and give the spitV a far better fight than the CHOG ever posibly could...
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Looks in and tosses my worthless 2 cents in ..........
Ive fought alot of niki's with a chog ... And yes I get the 1st and some of the time the 2nd turn on the niki .. but after that if the chogs E drops which it ussually does it then becomes food for the niki . the chog can ussually out run the niki with e managment after the 1st turn but any more then that the niki will catch it .
The biggest mistake is getting down on the deck w/ the niki.
if i see a niki and a6m together I always go after the niki 1st .
one more quick note about the Chog is with its 20mm cannons Ive gotten a fair amount of kills as far out as 1200 no other plane in the game besides the 50cals in the buffs have that kinda range.
Now complaints about Fester ... I myself have fought against him enough over the years now that I can say he has never beaten me by the how the hell did he do that wonder cheat .
But he does "Game the game"
Befor the rest of you guys accuse someone its best to film it 1st and then review it (99.9% of the time you will see that they just beat you to the turn,miss judged there E, or have better gunnery skills)
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Why is a Chog more deadly to a Spit V than a N1K2?
The Spit V should beat either one in a duel type situation, the Chog will just die quicker than the N1K2.
But in the MA, the N1K2 is more likely to give the Spit V the angles fight he wants. The Chog will run away, come back and cherry pick, or go for the Head On. Chogs are the best HO plane, the cannons are better than the N1k2s and it can survive hits the N1K2 can't.
Chog was getting something like 30%? of all the A2A kills in the arena before they perked it.
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Hey Nikis will turn try and turn fight with an FM2 - chogs don't they just B n Z you to death.
I believe that this is the key to your stats against these 2 planes.
The N1K pilot "thinks" that he has a chance against your FM2 in a turn fight, while the CHog pilot knows it ain't gonna happen so he won't enter the turn fight.
If the N1K were to use the same BnZ tactics as the CHog has against you, those stats would show a whole different result, and conversly too.
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Yes indeed, I've had pings at 1000/1100 yards - me in a F6F and the bogie in a 109. I got a clean kill! Total BS if you ask me.
Do you know for a fact that the 109 had not received previous structutal damage and all it needed was a little more to effect the kill ?
quote:
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Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
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...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.
Maybe he jinked into a pure headshot killing the pilot and causing the instant "BOOM!" death.
The point is ... you never really know these facts when presented with these situtations. Detail is not fine enough at these distances to make a crediable assement and judgement.
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Wierd unexplainable (unrealistic) things do happen in the game from time to time. I was in a panser and a Yak blew me up with a low (sort of co-alt as it were) and directly head-on shot. No damage at all, just blew that tank right the heck up.
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Why is a Chog more deadly to a Spit V than a N1K2?
The Spit V should beat either one in a duel type situation, the Chog will just die quicker than the N1K2.
But in the MA, the N1K2 is more likely to give the Spit V the angles fight he wants. The Chog will run away, come back and cherry pick, or go for the Head On. Chogs are the best HO plane, the cannons are better than the N1k2s and it can survive hits the N1K2 can't.
Chog was getting something like 30%? of all the A2A kills in the arena before they perked it.
A little reference to that, from my base analysis as seen in the "NPA" suggestion thread...
Interestingly, in an attempt to justify my claims on the analysis of the F4U-1C, I took a quick check with AKDejavu's Fighter Stats:
...
In my analysis, the number of Spits and N1K2s remains constant - they are the "backbone" of the air power, equivalnet to the "everyday soldier" or the "grunt" concept. The people using Spit9s and N1K2s always use these planes, and they carry out the largest fights of most gruesome, high attrition level battles in the MA. Majority of these guys fight each other.
The F4U-1C - I claim that it has split roles into P-51D, La-7, Typhoon, and the F4U-1D, F6F-5, Seafire.
According to the stats:
Tour11
* Tour 11, marks the absolute peak of the F4U-1C, which has 23% of all the kills. Interstingly, up to this point, the Bf109G-10 carries a relatively high percentage of average 7~8% - equivalent of what the La-7 holds. Also, the combined percentage of the Spit9 and the N1K2 holds average of about 20%, too - with the N1K2 doing 11~12%, and the Spit9 doing 8~9%.
Tour14
* In Tour 14, the La-7 and the Fw190D-9 appears for the very first time, and immediately the usage of the two planes goes over 7%.
Tour18
* In Tour 18, four months after the excitement of the two planes have gone down, this is the first time that the "Big Four" phenomenon shows its face. And from since Tour18, the "monopoly" begins.
The percentage of the G-10 drops down to 4%, the D-9 about to 5%. The percetage of the La-7 is embedded at about 8%. From this day forward, the G-10 and the D-9 stays near 4~5%, and the La-7 near 8%.
* The tours between 20~25, is a period where the overall percentage of the N1K2, Spit9, La-7 and the P-51D holds tight at 40%. The main changes are between those four planes - the N1K2 simmers down, and the P-51D usage rises up. Spit9 stays constant near 9~10%, and the La-7 constant at about 8~9%.
* From Tour 29, the Typhoon rises to the 5th place, with about 5% average up to now. This, is the point where current style of gameplay is finally set. The monopoly of the four planes which achieve the 40% of the kills, plus the Typhoon in the 5th place, as the most used jabo plane of them all. With the "big FIVE", 45% of the kills are achieved.
......
My analysis is as follows:
1) The stats prior to Tour14 indicates the truth in the "substitute" aspect of the La-7-Bf109G-10. Before the La-7 was here, The F4U-1C was doing almost everything, with a large section of the people resorting to the N1K2s and the Spitfires. P-51Ds always remain constant at about 10%. Before Tour14, the skies were full of Chogs, Spits and N1K2s. The 10% of other people flew P-51Ds simular in the fashion now. On the low alt fights, the Bf109G-10 was doing what the La-7 was doing, but it wasn't as pronounced due to the vast numbers of Spitfires, N1K2s and F4U-1Cs.
2) Tour18, four months after the La-7 and the Fw190D-9, the Chog crowd begins to disappear. Parts of them move to form the new La-7 crowd. The "LW" crowd, from this point on, remains constant at 7~8% - two planes of the entire LW plane set, are the only planes that make up that 8% of total kills achieved. The Spit9-N1K2 crowd still remains constant.
The D-hog has a momentray surge in usage - no doubt that another part of the C-hog crowd, were in the F4U-1D as a substitute for their C-hog. This tendency, quickly dies off after another few months.
Slowly, between Tour18 and Tour29, part of the C-hog crowd are fully assimilated in the La-7s.
3) Tour29, marks the beginning of what is current. Typhoons are used en masse as suicidal jabos. Fuel porking and large scale jabo raids are visible. New crowds gather to AH.
The rise of F6F-5 hellcat is also visible - the preference for the carrier plane, has shifted from the C-hog to the F6F-5. The N1K2 crowd drops, while the La-7 crowd begins to rise even more.
4) By Tour35, the Spit and the P-51D crowd still stay constant. However, the relative difference between the N1K2 and the La-7 has reversed - now, the La-7 is doing 9~10% of the kills, and the N1K2, which previously was doing about 12~13%, drops down to about 7%.
This, is the point where people gave up on trying other planes to chase La-7s. N1K2 crowd, moves on to form the hordes of La-7s. This explains the relatively low skill levels of the La-7s - few tours back, they were all flying N1K2s!!
5) Tour38 - The Big Four remain big four, Typhoon is the undisputed jabo plane, with 5th place in kills. The LW crowd mostly just gives up on the Bf109G-10(drops down to 3%) , and moves to the Fw190D-9(rises to 4~5%). In my view, parts of the Bf109G-10 pilots gave it up, and moved to the La-7s or P-51Ds, and the Fw190D-9s.
6) Thus, the stats suggest that Spitfire9 and P-51D is always constant at 10%. Karnak once noted that the P-51D is over 10%, and this hasn't happened recently and it's a sad thing.
But he's wrong. The Spit9s and P-51Ds were always at 10%.
7) Large part of the former C-hog crowd, first moved to the N1K2, La-7 and the D-hog. The dedicated hog flyers were experimenting with the D-hog, and the average "dweeb" who flew F4U-1Cs because they were the best, moved to the planes they thought was next best - N1K2 and the La-7.
Then, the D-hog crowd dispersed, and went to the Typhoon. Former Chog crowd who tried out N1K2s, saw that it was too slow, especially against the new tendencies of super fast planes - P-51D, Fw190D-9, La-7.. so they moved to the La-7.
8) Average carrier pilots, now has no other option than the F6F-5, since the F4U-1D is a hard plane to manage.
Thus, as a result, the former C-hog crowd, is now scattered into the La-7 and the Typhoon, and the for carrier missions F6F-5 and the Seafire. La-7 + Typhoon + Seafire + F6F-5 = 22.21%. The former role of the C-hog, with 8 perks, is now divided into these four planes!
9) Simpy put, the perk on the F4U-1C split it's role to two fighters - Typhoon and the La-7. Cross breed the Typhoon and the La-7 and what do you get?
a) La-7 and Typhoon, is a very fast plane on deck
b) Both La-7 and the Typhoon is a free plane
c) Typh with four Hispanos
d) Typh with 2k ordnance
e) Lots of cannon ammo
Fast plane + free + four hispanos + heavy ordnance + cannons
That's a C-hog.
Planes that resemble certain aspects of the Chog, became preferable. There are other planes which match "fast on deck" and "free" category. But the La-7, of all those others, is naturally the only choice. The "cannon" category was the reason behind the momentary increase in the N1K2s after the Chog was perked. But N1K2s, compared to the La-7s, were too damn slow.
10) Seafire and the F6F-5 is also an interesting case. In theory, F4U-1D and the F4U-1C is only different in the armament. But strangely, when the F4U-1C was perked, people tried moving to the D-hog, but they gave that up soon. They started flying Seafires and Hellcats. D-hog, so much simular to the F4U-1C than any other plane, was neglected totally.
This means:
a) the La-7 is that much more preferable and effective for the former C-hog crowd.
b) Hispanos, mean that much in AH. To hell with all other simualrities - when the gun sucks, it's not a worthy substitue. They moved to the La-7, with sucky guns but super performance enough to cover that disadvantage, or moved to the same quad-hispano plane - Typhoon.
c) The Hellcat is now the preferred carrier jabo - somewhat like a Spit9 with heavy bombs.
d) of course, Hellcats can't really turn with N1K2s and Spit9s - they are like Spit9s only against other planes. So, when fighting N1K2s and real Spits, the Seafire is used. It's got Hispanos, too.
...
Thus, in conclusion, the perks split the monopolistic 23% Chog usage into bits.
Now, we need perks to split those 7~10% planes into 3~5%. However, when other late war planes remain unperked, there just will be another 10% planes arising.
Thus, perking the late war performers, and forcing them into the 1943 era, should be considered.
Whether the 1943 version of the "Big Four" will be a shadow of the late war "Big Fours", will remain something to be seen.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Yes indeed, I've had pings at 1000/1100 yards - me in a F6F and the bogie in a 109. I got a clean kill! Total BS if you ask me.
Do you know for a fact that the 109 had not received previous structutal damage and all it needed was a little more to effect the kill ?
quote:
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Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
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...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.
Maybe he jinked into a pure headshot killing the pilot and causing the instant "BOOM!" death.
The point is ... you never really know these facts when presented with these situtations. Detail is not fine enough at these distances to make a crediable assement and judgement.
Slapshot,
The encounter with the 109 was a very long time ago. I had not been in the game long. I got bounced by the pesky 109 who didn't damage me, but zoomed up out of reach each time. In frustration, I fired a few rounds in his direction after about the third bounce. To my utter amazement, his plane blew up. (Range 1000-1100, upward angle of about 30°) On Ch1, his comment was something like "Wow! Nice shot from 1100 yards!" - the point being that the range was ~1050yds both for him and for me. (No lag error) His plane was not smoking up to that point, and judging from the way it was flying, it had little if any other damage until I hit it. But I can't remember if we talked about that - probably not.
As for the shot Bulz recalls - 873yds - could have been a head shot. But it's not as if those lucky fluke shots are occurring once in a blue moon. It happens time after time after time. And some of the guys who make those shots have perfected it. No, for my money it happens too often for it to be "lucky head shots". Besides which, would a cannon round fly 800yds, against air resistance, catch up to a target egressing at 400mph and still have sufficient kinetic energy to cause damage to the target? I don't have much knowledge of ballistics, but I do recall the discussions that took place when WB adopted a new gunnery model about 5 years ago. I was left in no doubt that the gunnery revisions were a step in the right direction. Basically, 600/800 yard shots became a thing of the past. The new order was to close to max 300 or 100-200 for planes armed with cannon. 500 yard shots simply wouldn't work any more, and the indications are that AH2 will go the same way.
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quote:
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Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
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...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.
do not rely on the "1 ping your ded" thing- 1 "ping" sound does not mean you were hit once. it could be 1 hit or 50 hits.
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Originally posted by Flyboy
quote:
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Originally posted by Bulz
at d873 I see tracers and jig to the right.. BOOM! 1 hit I'm dead..
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...and that's BS too - the fact that those shots are possible.
do not rely on the "1 ping your ded" thing- 1 "ping" sound does not mean you were hit once. it could be 1 hit or 50 hits.
If you're saying that Bulz was hit by possibly as many as 50 rounds, that fuels my belief that the gunnery is not as it should be in AH1, and that's because of dispersion designed into automatic weapons of the kind used on WW2 aircraft. It would simply not be possible to focus a concentrated stream of cannon rounds into one place at a distance of 800 yards.
Phantom4, if you're still here, you are an expert at military weapons, and I admit I'm stuggling to recall what I learned in those WB debates about gunnery and dispersion from 5 years ago. Can you tell us more about how that works? A former military acquaintance of mine explained how a belt fed machine gun was designed to spread its output over a sizeable area at a given range, and not put all the rounds discharged into the same hole. In other words, no laser gunnery.
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beet, most of the destructive power a cannon round holds derives from its HE content. Kinetic energy is not much of an issue for cannon rounds even at longer distances. (Ofcourse, even cannons had mixed ammo belts of AP ammunition and HE ammunition, thus an AP round fired from a cannon would have lost some potential).
However, from what I've seen people present as data, it seems that even HMGs like the M2 Browning holds much of its kinetic potential easily upto over 1000 yards - thus, fluke shots and lucky snags are very possible as people have previously mentioned.
Ofcourse, I'm not sure if AH damage model deals in "bounced" rounds - as a matter of fact, I don't think anyone knows just how exactly AH deals damages.(I do recall Pyro saying kinetic difference according to speed is modelled in the game - a long long time ago, that is).
Typically we hear three types of "pings" - a smaller 'bouncy' sound for MGs, a 'thunk!' sound for cannon hits, and a 'clunk!' sound indicating damage.
So, when you are assaulted by a barrage of the 'bouncy' pings, or receive a 'thunk', does that mean the bullets are bouncing off? Or does it mean that you are hit and the shells did penetrate, but the damage was not enough for the game to deal out "damaged" status upon the hit part? No one really knows.
....
But one thing is certain, is that if a fluke or a lucky shot hits your plane, and the game deals out the "damaged" card, the whole part will be utterly destroyed - which often results in catastrophic structural failure of flight surfaces, which immediately brings down the plane(typically when it's the vertical stab or the horizontal stab being damaged). Thus, the simplicity of this damage model is partly responsible for the "fluke shots", or even the mentality behind the people attempting that shot(since they know if they succeed in damaging a plane somehow, it will almost definately go down, or be seriously rendered incompetent to fight).
Basically, the problem of people attempting long range shots, succeeding in it regularly, and even mastering that particular aspect as a required skill, has a lot more to do than just gunnery alone - since, as said by others, in theory the ballistics suggests that such shots are very possible.
The problem is that in real life, despite what the ballistics suggest, long range shots were both rarely attempted and rarely effective. This is due to a number of reasons, which exists in reality but does not reside in AH. People have come up with a compelling argument mentioning "pilot experience" as a factor, but while it may explain some of the difference in real life gunnery and in-the-game gunnery, there is more to it than just skill factor alone. The 'effective range' of aerial gunnery is different from the 'effective range' specifications following a gun design. If we accept Mr. Anthony Williams as a trusty expert in this, his opinion is that 200m(218yds) was generally the maximum range which kills could be expected against fighters, and upto 400m(437yds) max for larger targets like bombers. Anything further than that simply did not wield effective results. (600~1000 yards shots are indeed, according to my own experience, very rare and not very likely to happen in AH1. Mr. Williams' opinion would suggest that being able to drop a fighter plane at ranges between 200~300yards, should be as hard as 600~800 yard shots which occur in AH1. If we take in the 'pilot skill' factor into the game, and double the effective range of what Mr.Williams suggests, it would suggest that to be 'fairly realistic', a 400~500 yard shot should be as hard as 800 yard shots currently seen in AH1, with most of the kills occuring within 250yards, 300~400 yard shots being considered as "long range", and 400~500 yard shots considered "lucky".)
I'm not aware of what WB3 did to change the gunnery, but I seem to recall someone saying that it was artificial neutering of the gunnery. If that's the case, while I'd understand it as a gameplay concession, and even admit it as something better than what is current in AH, still, I'd not feel comfortable about it.
The best way would be to try to implement as much real-life factors that were in real-life as possible into the game, so the effective range of gunnery naturally falls lower than what it used to be. One certain method would be to remove ammo counters from planes that did not have them - the IL2/FB experience teaches me that my trigger-happiness is greatly influenced by whether or not I can keep accurate track of just how much ammunition is available to me. Other things like limiting maximum convergence tweaking to 400yards would also help. There are various factors which are not present in AH that should be. (The seemingly more difficult gunnery in AH2 is partially due to the fact that the tracers have changed, and the 'hit sprites' are much less visible than it used to be - which is indeed a good thing)
All in all, I agree that 800yd+ shots are bullshi*. But to be frank, I really don't see much of it happening. It's a rare thing to happen. The 'average' ranges where kills normally occur in all occasions - around 400~600 yards - is the larger problem. Honestly, no matter how much a pilot sucks, I can never feel safe as long as he is within 600yards because I know I'm gonna die if I don't jink hard enough.
We'll just have to see what happens with AH2, but frankly the harder the gunnery is(or rather, the more close to real life ranges it drops down to..) the more intense, and more ACM oriented the game becomes. One thing for certain, is as I've said in the past, people will start finding planes like Spit9s or N1K2s hugely unattractive if effective gunnery ranges(ranges which a pilot can expect to bring a plane down) drop down to something like 300yards maximum.
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It's easy enough to check dispersion using the .target command.
The image attached was taken after setting target to 800yds and holding trigger for 5 seconds. The target was then moved to 100yds and I zoomed in for the screenshot. I then enlarged the hits in photoshop so that they woud read better.
You would have to ask HT what dimensions the rings represent as I do not know.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/482_1083778674_niki_disp.jpg)
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Well I lay no claim to be an expert just some hands on experience. I have opinions that are honed by those experiences but I would never say they are facts. With that said, I will state that I know of no rifle are machine gun design that purposely introduces errors (or variations). I would feel that a small amount of dispersion in a weapon with a high rate of fire would improve the hit probability. The variations in individual bullets, various tolerances in the manufacturinf process, and the recoil effects of the weapon should produce enough dispersion that you would not need to design in errors. On the other hand, in multi-gun and multi barrelled weapons systems designed for air to air or anti-air purposes each barrel or gun was slightly offset to produce a larger area of dispersion and actually improved the hit probability. Much like the dispersion pattern of shot from a shotgun. It is easier to hit a flying bird with a shotgun than a rifle.
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The driver in a GV can be killed just as well as the pilot in a plane can.
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Morph,
The M60 is a 7.62mm machine gun.
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Originally posted by Phantom4-Mag33
Well I lay no claim to be an expert just some hands on experience. I have opinions that are honed by those experiences but I would never say they are facts. With that said, I will state that I know of no rifle are machine gun design that purposely introduces errors (or variations). I would feel that a small amount of dispersion in a weapon with a high rate of fire would improve the hit probability. The variations in individual bullets, various tolerances in the manufacturinf process, and the recoil effects of the weapon should produce enough dispersion that you would not need to design in errors. On the other hand, in multi-gun and multi barrelled weapons systems designed for air to air or anti-air purposes each barrel or gun was slightly offset to produce a larger area of dispersion and actually improved the hit probability. Much like the dispersion pattern of shot from a shotgun. It is easier to hit a flying bird with a shotgun than a rifle.
Phantom4, thanks for that. I've underlined the parts in your reply which were of particular note. ^
Indeed - the whole point of dispersion was to increase the hit probability. I do believe that the same applied to certain hand held machine guns, and that such errors compensated for lack of marksmanship on the part of the user. (Please forgive my total lack of military parlance!) What I'm trying to say is that a machine gun, for example, would be set to fire three rounds on one squeeze of the trigger. The rounds would not all follow the same path, so a greater chance of getting ONE hit was possible. But of course at very close range, all three rounds could be expected to find their target. ...and this is my understanding of the reason for dispersion in WW2 warplane armaments.
Yes - easier to hit a flying bird with a shotgun than a rifle, BUT... still possible to hit a bird at 500 yards with a rifle, but totally impossible with a shotgun. Of course, a shotgun's accuracy/effectiveness depends on the type of shot. But I've been told that beyond 60 yards, a kill of a bird is unlikely with a shotgun. But that would be for TWO reasons: 1)Dispersion, 2)loss of kinetic energy.
Kweassa - It wasn't WB3 which brought in the new gunnery model. It was the highly controversial WB 2.6. The main differences were that the effective range of any weapon was greatly reduced, and each individual hit was recorded instead of packets of hits. This needed much more FE processing power. I had only a P2-266 at the time. I upgraded to 450MHz, and saw a big difference. Later upgraded to 1.2GHz, and finally could get multikill sorties in a 109 - lol. You're right - the hit sprites were toned down.
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Originally posted by ChasR
Morph,
The M60 is a 7.62mm machine gun.
LOL! I have a follower laideis and gentlemen.
Dude you really must learn to read everything before making a comment.
Here I was called out for an honest mistake.
The M60 is a 7.62mm machine gun, the .50 is an M2.
And here is where I noted he was not only correct but also gave the source of my information.
Forgive me. Was at work and almost pressed for time. Here is my documented source. Book entitled "Marine Sniper" writen by Charles Henderson documenting Sgt. Carlos Hathnoodles Military career
LOL ChasR!
Too funny
But thanks for caring:lol
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Caught me on that one. I admit I didn't read em all. Sorry.
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Ya... I know about those guys from doing my own early morning flying while I was on graveyard shift.
It's simple... they know about lag, they play to lag, and they depend on it.
T.
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Beetle, you cannot compare the dispersion between a shotgun and a rifle. A shotgun fires a bunch of loosly packed pellets in a smooth bore barrel vs. a high velocity single projectile in a rifled barrel. As for the natural dispersion with a machine gun -- it is nowhere near that from a shotgun.
As I recall, the three round burst came into being to save ammunition. A machine gun will rise and move to either the left or right (I cant remember) when fired. Your arm is not a rigid steel mounting. You could hit a target with an aimed shot on full automatic at fairly close range with all of about three shots before you start missing. But, you were expected to hit the target with the first round of the burst, and I suppose fire somewhat aimed bursts instead of put it on auto and rock'n roll a clip.
As for dispersion, with a heavy machine gun...
Again (I seem to remember replying to this exact same comparison before), you qualify (or at lease used to) with the M2 .50 cal by having to hit a BMP sized target (frontal dimension, I believe) out to 800 yards. You must hit this target within 12 rounds. The bullets have some dispersion at that range, but not enough to even be remotely compared to the spread of a shotgun -- a handfull of yards at most. It is also a flex mounting with vertical and horizontal freedom of movement (steadied by human arms) and not a rigid aircraft style mounting. The only time I saw that type of spread from M2 was when the barrel was shot out and the tracers left a visible "quake railgun" spiral as they left the barrel.
You also expected the ammo to penetrate a BMP type armored vehicle at that range. Now, the ammo was improved from WW2, but then again a Me-109 is not an armored assault or recon vehicle either :)
I'm a sucky shot in AH (much like real life WW2 pilots in general), and the only time I get consistant hits at 600+ yards the target tends to not be doing even the minimum evasives (giving multiple opportunities to walk the rounds in using short bursts just like you would on the firing range), perhaps thinking that they are even farther out of range and immune because of the "objects in the mirror are closer" lag effect. The only time I seem to get smacked by a spray and pray .50 or hispanio plane at 600+ yards is if I don't make even the slightest evasives.
FWIW, dispersion was dialed in through convergence -- or not. Some pilots/commands liked the idea and others didn't. Generally, as stated in numerous accounts, pilots of all nations were poorly trained on A2A gunnery with deflection shooting being something mainly for the farm boys and skeet shooters. The average sim pilot takes for granted the fact that leading a target, vs shooting right at it, and the amount of lead required, are second nature. The same for bullet rise and drop over distance.
[edit: the cannons ao a N1K2 are not quite in the .50/hispanio league, but if the target is not manuvering it would only take a few extra adjustment bursts to get hits, which of course provide blast and fragmentation damage making "1 ping" a more serious isue than with a .50]
Charon
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Originally posted by Furious
You would have to ask HT what dimensions the rings represent as I do not know.
Each ring is 10 feet.
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Originally posted by Charon
Beetle, you cannot compare the dispersion between a shotgun and a rifle. A shotgun fires a bunch of loosly packed pellets in a smooth bore barrel vs. a high velocity single projectile in a rifled barrel. As for the natural dispersion with a machine gun -- it is nowhere near that from a shotgun.
Good post, and point taken. I was just trying to demonstrate that when a weapon is designed to disperse rounds to create a better chance of getting a hit, that this concept is only any good at relatively close range. Beyond that range, the projectiles (whether they be .50 cal, cannon, or shotgun pellets) will be too widely dispersed to achieve anything more than a lucky ping. Of course, the ballistics of shotgun pellets means that their effective range is only going to be short, regardless of dispersion. But by the same token, surely a high velocity single shot rifle does not need dispersion, and therefore it can be expected to be accurate to 1000/2000yds. A totally different concept from automatic fire from a plane with bendy wings.
Furious/Pyro - I've tried that .target command. I can't get it to work. I've checked HELP but am no wiser. A few pointers please?
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
In a turn fight????? Common Levi. I dont know what point you are trying to make but you are going about it in the wrong way...
Turnfighting ability is now the criterion for perking a plane? If so, we'd wind up perking the Spit V, A6M2, A6M5, FM2/F4F, and Hurricanes.
Naturally the Spit V flies circles around the F4U-1C in a turnfight. It also flies circles around a N1K in a turnfight too. Naturally the N1K turns best of those two opponents, so it's relatively more difficult to dispatch, but any criteria for perking must consider the totality of the Main Arena experience. Overall, the F4U-1C is a much better Main Arena plane than the N1K or the Spit V.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Beetle, look north...
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Originally posted by beet1e
...Furious/Pyro - I've tried that .target command. I can't get it to work. I've checked HELP but am no wiser. A few pointers please?
type ".target xxx", where xxx equals the desired distance to the target in yards. Be sure to be heading north, as that is where the target will appear. Use ".target 0", to turn it off.
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Originally posted by Furious
type ".target xxx", where xxx equals the desired distance to the target in yards. Be sure to be heading north, as that is where the target will appear. Use ".target 0", to turn it off.
And don't forget to look behind you.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
The Chog can climb with the NIK? Can turn with the NIK?
Its not fast in comparison, its guns are very effective but no more so than the NIKs. It cant turn worth SQUAT compared to the NIK.... So can someone PLEASE clue me in here???
Chog has much better roll, speed and guns. Niki can out turn it, and out climb.
Bottom line it's how you fly it. I also agree that a chog should eat a niki for lunch, and I AM a niki dweeb (not as good as say taki, but maintained 5 to 1 k/d last tour in one). When ftn a chog, i try to get them to blow their energy for me, and i'll eat 'em for lunch. IF they keep their E, they will eventually get you. I was bingo fuel/ammo (had a bit o' both) and a chog was b/z me all the way home. I couldn't land 'cause he wanted me BAD, and would vulch me. He prob. made 26 passes on me. Yes I avoided 25 but the 26th he got me. I couldn't take the fight to him, he'd just extend. As long as you are VERY aware of a niki's E state, they pretty ezy kills imho.
It's the pilot not the plane.
-Lute III/JG26 9th ST WidowMakers
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But by the same token, surely a high velocity single shot rifle does not need dispersion, and therefore it can be expected to be accurate to 1000/2000yds. A totally different concept from automatic fire from a plane with bendy wings.
Just how bendy do you think the wings are, and just how much force do you think these weapons put on wings designed to support a five-ton aircraft through 8g maneuvers? The issue apparently came up early in Spitfire development where you had somewhat of an extreme combination of wing design and high-energy cannon, but that was addressed [I think I'm even reaching for this one, and confusing aileron reversal and jamming issues]. Unlike modern airliners, flex was not a design goal. You qualify with a M2 .50 at 800 yards, on automatic in under 12 rounds. The dispersion, even with "arm" stabilization is not significant. If it were, it would never have been used as long as it was as an anti-APC type weapon where those will be somewhat common engagement ranges. You do not kill an APC at 800 yards with one or two hits, you need to chew the hell out of it, killing the vehicle and hopefully most of the people in it.
An issue can be made against the longer than historical convergence in AH. At greater distances you would have to aim to the right or to the left on a wing mounted aircraft and hope to hit with one bank of guns. There are stories of pilots who adjusted at both shorter- and greater-than convergence ranges to do this (generally in exceptional situations). However, if you do set convergence for 600 yards or 800 yards you should be able to put most of the rounds in a fairly useful concentration (though admittedly more than at 300 yards or so).
But, as Kweassa noted the overall results are going to be less (less accuracy, smaller target, less damage) than at closer ranges. Particularly with pilots that received minimal gunnery training. So, you adjust for the least common denominator.
As I've stated in the past, and Kweassa noted here, limiting convergence to a historically common 300 yards or so would likely eliminate many of the issues. There would still be some due to the lack of fear, panic, adrenaline, heat or cold, fatigue, buffeting and general keeping the RL plane in the air factors, but, IMO long distance kills are not that much of an issue even now, with just gentle evasives.
Charon
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The CHOG is perked cause it's a CV based plane with 4 Hispanos..If the NIKI had a tailhook it would also be perked..Just my opinion.
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As for the shot Bulz recalls - 873yds - could have been a head shot. But it's not as if those lucky fluke shots are occurring once in a blue moon. It happens time after time after time. And some of the guys who make those shots have perfected it. No, for my money it happens too often for it to be "lucky head shots". Besides which, would a cannon round fly 800yds, against air resistance, catch up to a target egressing at 400mph and still have sufficient kinetic energy to cause damage to the target? I don't have much knowledge of ballistics, but I do recall the discussions that took place when WB adopted a new gunnery model about 5 years ago. I was left in no doubt that the gunnery revisions were a step in the right direction. Basically, 600/800 yard shots became a thing of the past. The new order was to close to max 300 or 100-200 for planes armed with cannon. 500 yard shots simply wouldn't work any more, and the indications are that AH2 will go the same way.
"time after time after time" ... I smell an embelishment alert coming on.
Too broad of a statement with nothing really to back it up. With over 500+ people online, yes, there will be a certain percentage (very very small) that will get these shots. I have putting some serious time in the P-38. With center-line guns (20MM and .50 cal), I have yet to achieve these 1.0+ kills. I have gotten pings at the distance, but no kills. With 580 kills in the P-38 last tour, not one was over 800+ yards and very few at that distance too.
"would a cannon round fly 800yds, against air resistance, catch up to a target egressing at 400mph"
Yes it would. Remember, the shooter is not stationary, so the total egress speed would not be 400 mph, unless it was a 262 zooming past a Spit V.
All this nashing of the teeth and discussion of the "long shot" only leads me to believe that most have not spent much/any time in AH II. The AH II gunnery will surprise most ... if it remains as it is now ... guaranteed !!!
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Originally posted by beet1e
Furious/Pyro - I've tried that .target command. I can't get it to work. I've checked HELP but am no wiser. A few pointers please?
It's not available at 30 thousand feet ... ;)
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lol
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Slap - Hehe, I don't know where you get the idea I fly at 30,000ft. (No vulching opportunities up there!) The last time I was at 30K was returning home from France on Monday as a passenger! An F4U would run out of fuel by the time it got to 30K. Well, almost. I think such suggestions belong in the "Beet1e is a runner" file. When I pointed out to you that the planes I'm most likely to encounter (P51/LA7) are faster than my mount and that running would not be an option, you said it's not about the facts - it was about my "style". All smacks of one thing - "don't blind me with the facts, I know what I'm talking about". Nothing to do with facts, just slapshot believing what he wants to believe! :aok And the joke is that I'm the one accused of smoke and mirrors! LOL Oh yeah - don't confuse the Z part of a B&Z with "running". Of course I could be wrong. If I am, I look forward to seeing the film that proves it. :D
I've been shot up plenty of times from 700/800 yards. I should start collecting the films to post.
OK so it's being argued here that it is well within the realms of possibility to get a hit from 1000 or even 2000 yards. But whoever said that is comparing apples with oranges by making a comparison with WW2 warplane armaments. Sure a marksman/sniper with a high velocity rifle carefully aiming from a ground position and using the latest state of the art electronic gun sight may well be able to manage a 2000 yard shot. But that's not how it was for WW2 warplanes. For several reasons. - The WW2 weaponry was... WW2. No fancy electronic gunsights back then. All the pilot had was a simple gunsight on or near his front windscreen - that was it.
- The pilots of WW2 often had little or no training in shooting. Some had had no practice at all.
- The weapons were automatic belt fed guns - not designed for single shot precision.
- Both friendly and con were being buffeted around the sky by turbulence. Dispersion was designed in to improve the chances of hits.
In short, it's one thing to get a single shot on target at a range of 2000 yards from a stable ground position with the aid of a technologically advanced electronic sight. And quite another matter to cause consistent catastrophic damage at as little as 800 yards because of firing from a moving target at another moving target using WW2 weapons that were designed to spread their load over a sizeable area at something like 200 yards.
By the way, one of the guys I talk to has served in Iraq. I was curious to know more about the gunsights in use. Well guess what? He couldn't tell me. It's classified. All he was able to say was to confirm that the sights used are electrically powered. From that, plus the fact that the rest was classified, I could tell those sights could even make a marksman out of a gun dweeb like me. :p
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With the 8 kills did get pinged at all?...he might have sent the cannon round that put you over the top.......now if you had no pings at all I would call that strange, like whats been happening to me since the tour started over...I can light someone up big time, I get one MG round and my wing falls off, or it takes out my engine.....seemed better last knight, but that is no way to start a tour.
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Can you read?
An M2 is a WW2 era (actually WW1 era) machine gun. You qualify using open Iron sights. I have qualified with it, on automatic, at those ranges using open sights. It is the same basic weapon used on all WW2 US fighters (but about 5 percent more velocity). You use the weapon to kill both point and area targets at distances of up to and even beyond 800 yards. The "great" dispersion is a handful of yards.
Charon
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Both friendly and con were being buffeted around the sky by turbulence. Dispersion was designed in to improve the chances of hits.
Some pilots and commands tried this - USING CONVERGENCE SETTINGS. But, the general rule seems to have been to set the guns for a solid convergence in a tight box at a fixed distance.
The weapons were automatic belt fed guns - not designed for single shot precision.
Some were, such as the M2 which in the ground mount version can be set to single shot. You just turn a catch between the spade grips. It was used as a sniper rifle with this setting and as a general purpose machine gun otherwise. Most weapons are machined to fairly tight tolerences, or else the tend to become rather dangerous to the operators.
Did you stay at a Holiday Inn last night?
Charon
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"Slap - Hehe, I don't know where you get the idea I fly at 30,000ft. (No vulching opportunities up there!) The last time I was at 30K was returning home from France on Monday as a passenger! An F4U would run out of fuel by the time it got to 30K. Well, almost. I think such suggestions belong in the "Beet1e is a runner" file. When I pointed out to you that the planes I'm most likely to encounter (P51/LA7) are faster than my mount and that running would not be an option, you said it's not about the facts - it was about my "style". All smacks of one thing - "don't blind me with the facts, I know what I'm talking about". Nothing to do with facts, just slapshot believing what he wants to believe! And the joke is that I'm the one accused of smoke and mirrors! LOL Oh yeah - don't confuse the Z part of a B&Z with "running". Of course I could be wrong. If I am, I look forward to seeing the film that proves it."
:rofl .... I promise Beet, I only use 440 stainless, so no need to worry about infection. Shall we use my pliers or yours ?
We must wing together some night ... me, you, and Mars ... real soon !!!
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ROFL Slapshot! Yah bastage! I wish I knew a few more Big Blue jokes. ;)
I watched part of your film the other day - you and Morph and xtremeJ. What language do you guys speak on voxx? The only one I could understand was Morph. :eek:
I need AH2 practice. All I ever seem to see in AH1 these days is small maps. :mad: So I haven't played AH1 for a week. I should be a soft target.
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Originally posted by beet1e
ROFL Slapshot! Yah bastage! I wish I knew a few more Big Blue jokes. ;)
I watched part of your film the other day - you and Morph and xtremeJ. What language do you guys speak on voxx? The only one I could understand was Morph. :eek:
I need AH2 practice. All I ever seem to see in AH1 these days is small maps. :mad: So I haven't played AH1 for a week. I should be a soft target.
Soft target ... for me ? ... nah ... Killshooter is a ***** !!
Thank cod Fester ran the P-38 Massive missions last night causing Mindano to be reset and outta here ... but then the Uterus map came up ... PUKE !!!
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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!
My plan is working! I am quickly turning you all into sissy-mary bedwetters!!
-George
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lol wtf
ppl have created a new bb name just for this thread LMFAO