Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on May 04, 2004, 08:46:46 AM
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Interesting story below(See link) but I want to begin with my own philosphy regarding discipline. Positive reinforcement combined with negative punishment go hand in hand. The more positive reinforcement during periods of good behavior lessens the chances of bad behavior, therefore checks negative punishment. However, when bad behavior is present, from 2 yrs to roughly 4 yrs. old, a swat on the butt (or two..) is necessary. After roughly age 4, there are other methods that work better than physical punishment, like loss of privileges (whatever they may be). A spanking should NEVER leave marks or welts, if it does, you probably should not be spanking your child as you are letting your own anger get out of control.
I've been witnessing both my method of raising children (like my father) and the opposite of that method, which is my neighbor, who did not believe in any physical "swat on the butt" style punishment with their child, a son who is now age 8, same age as my oldest son.
He is hell on wheels. He's a bully on the bus. He's a goof off, constantly disrupting everything around him. His grades are sub-par.
He is also on my sons team, which I help coach, and he is never paying attention, always getting away with murder when we turn our backs. He also runs alot, due to our policy that when a kid gets as disruptive as Austin does, our head coach usually makes them run to a designated point (like a distant tree or goal post) and back until they get the message. Austin does NOT get the message. Austin runs alot.
His father is disappointed with his son's baseball ability, and constantly consoles with me about his son's abilities. The kid has natural talents, but sucks big time in any sport he plays because he never pays attention and is always goofing off (no discipline his whole life...remember?) I''ve told his father to consider pulling Austin out of the game when he begins bending over and pretending to fart on other kids while the game is going on...he's not done that yet, but yanking a kid out of the middle of the game is VERY effective from my experience. (I've done it once, and I've never had to do it again)
Last night was the final straw...he knee'd another kid in the groin (lucky they wear cups) and pushed the other kid down..his intentions were harmful.
Now, you can tell his Dad is seething with anger inside, you can read him pretty good. But he won't discipline his child(We've discussed this before over the years) The worse thing he has done is ground him for 1 day, of which turned out to be a half day because I saw Austin that evening riding a bike.
So, just a note for all you parents just beginning life with a little one, use positive reinforcement, and plenty of it, when your child behaves....but do NOT be afraid to give them a swat now and then to straighten out bad behavior when they're toddlers...then you won't have the high blood pressure that my neighbor has. ;)
Incidently, the story below? That kids too old for spanking...it won't work at that age, it'll just "harden" them if you know what I mean.
http://www.komo-am.com/stories/31070.htm
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There can be discipline without corporal punishment.
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It sounds like you have a pretty good handle on how to raise your children Rip. I also get the impression you spend a lot of time with your kids, which I've noticed among my frineds seems to help as well.
We're working on our first (40 year old daddy) and it's a bit scary when you think about how easy it is to screw everything up or get lazy or take the easy way out.
Charon
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Of course it could just be that his kid has ADDHD and yours don't...
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Originally posted by Sandman
There can be discipline without corporal punishment.
LMAO and look at his avitar!
Yea..ok:rofl
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Consequences of Corporal Punishment
Accumulated research supports the theory that corporal punishment is an ineffective discipline strategy with children of all ages and, furthermore, that it is often dangerous. Corporal punishment most often produces in its victims anger, resentment, and low self-esteem. It teaches violence and revenge as solutions to problems, and perpetuates itself, as children imitate what they see adults doing. Research substantiates the following consequences of corporal punishment:
Children whose parents use corporal punishment to control antisocial behavior show more antisocial behavior themselves over a long period of time, regardless of race and socioeconomic status, and regardless of whether the mother provides cognitive stimulation and emotional support (Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997; Kazdin, 1987; Patterson, DeBaryshe, & Ramsey, 1989; Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997).
A consistent pattern of physical abuse exists that generally starts as corporal punishment, and then gets out of control (Kadushin & Martin, 1981; Straus & Yodanis, 1994).
Adults who were hit as children are more likely to be depressed or violent themselves (Berkowitz, 1993; Strassberg, Dodge, Pettit, & Bates, 1994; Straus, 1994; Straus & Gelles, 1990; Straus & Kantor, 1992).
The more a child is hit, the more likely it is that the child, when an adult, will hit his or her children, spouse, or friends (Julian & McKenry, 1993; Straus, 1991; Straus, 1994; Straus & Gelles, 1990; Straus & Kantor, 1992; Widom, 1989; Wolfe, 1987).
Corporal punishment increases the probability of children assaulting the parent in retaliation, especially as they grow older (Brezina, 1998).
Corporal punishment sends a message to the child that violence is a viable option for solving problems (Straus, Gelles, & Steinmetz, 1980; Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997).
Corporal punishment is degrading, contributes to feelings of helplessness and humiliation, robs a child of self-worth and self-respect, and can lead to withdrawal or aggression (Sternberg et al., 1993; Straus, 1994).
Corporal punishment erodes trust between a parent and a child, and increases the risk of child abuse; as a discipline measure, it simply does not decrease children's aggressive or delinquent behaviors (Straus, 1994).
Children who get spanked regularly are more likely over time to cheat or lie, be disobedient at school, bully others, and show less remorse for wrongdoing (Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997).
Corporal punishment adversely affects children's cognitive development. Children who are spanked perform poorly on school tasks compared to other children (Straus & Mathur, 1995; Straus & Paschall, 1998).
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A swat on the but or two in extreme cases between ages 2-4 is different from using corporal punishjment in all situations, IMO. For example, a dangerous behavior. We lived by a busy street when I was a kid and I can still remember getting swatted at about age 4 or 5 for running towards the street.
FWIW I have a bunch of friends with well behaved children, and the common link seems to be the time they spend with the children and no actually meaning no.
Charon
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
LMAO and look at his avitar!
Yea..ok:rofl
Corporal punishment of fax machines is healthy.
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More important than spanking a child is spending time with a child. We sacrificed my wife's income so she could stay home with our daughter, and we've never regretted our decision. It meant we couldn't afford a BMW and had to drive a Taurus, but in the long run it's been worth it- they have 19 years of closeness and love that can't be bought for any price.
Now, spanking at eight years old? If it's necessary to spank a child at eight years old then something went wrong when the child was seven, or six, or five, or four, or three....
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"FWIW I have a bunch of friends with well behaved children, and the common link seems to be the time they spend with the children and no actually meaning no."
The trend i see is if you want them to act like little adults you must treat them as such. The dialogue between appears to play a bigger part than the time spent with them. Explaining and having a good reasoning behind the "no" kids often tend to respond better.
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Originally posted by Sandman
There can be discipline without corporal punishment.
as shown in your profile photo yeah....? :D
IMO, swatting a child for bad behaviour is very important. not that im a dad yet, but i remember getting some light swattings for mister meaners (and sometimes a harsh beating for serious misbehaviour) and, although i hated my father for a few days and planned to run away, leave the country, etc, when i matured and thought about many of the scenarios, i realised i was infact very deserveing of this action, and it only served to make me stronger and more disiplined.
Sometimes i was beaten with too much force, but then my father was of military background, and his father before him, so it was in his blood. personaly i will not be joining the services, mainly because its a different thing to what it was 40 years ago, and secondly becuase we are not under a major threat. Yet.
to sum up, in my experience, ripsnort, your doing well, if i was your son i would respect your authority at the very least
SOUNDS LIKE YOU AND YOUR NIEGHBOUR ARE A CARBON COPY OF THE SIMPSONS AND NED FLANDERS, EXCEPT YOU BOTH HAVE BART AS A SON :aok
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"PC load letter? WTF does PC load letter mean?!"
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Of course it could just be that his kid has ADDHD and yours don't...
I just used him as an example (Neighbors kid) Its a pretty common scenario when you work with kids alot (from the stand point of coaching).
And yeah, you guys nailed it, spending time, as much as you can, is key to parenthood.
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Sounds like you got those kids going right down the middle of the strike zone there Rip. Just make sure they're ready for a little chin music. Life will produce a curve ball or a spitter now and then. Always make sure they are ahead on the count and keeping the bat off their shoulder, with 2 outs and the bags full the last thing you want is a fake farter.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Of course it could just be that his kid has ADDHD and yours don't...
Have you ever taken a ADHD quiz (http://psychcentral.com/addquiz.htm) ? 99% of people have those symptoms, IMHO it's pretty much a made up disease. I scored 47.
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I scored 15.
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17 here. But I've been drinking coffee.
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Originally posted by mora
Have you ever taken a ADHD quiz (http://psychcentral.com/addquiz.htm) ? 99% of people have those symptoms, IMHO it's pretty much a made up disease. I scored 47.
There are some valid cases, but not as many as teachers WANT you to believe there are...usually it means the teacher is not willing to work harder with the kids, and/or the kid suffers from disciplinary problems (lack of) at home. I'm sure Austin (my subject I used in my original post) would have been diagnosed with ADHD had he been in a larger, inner city school. Luckily, we have small classrooms out in the 'Burbs, and the teachers are more than willing to work with kids like Austin alittle harder.
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usually it means the teacher is not willing to work harder with the kids, and/or the kid suffers from disciplinary problems (lack of) at home.
Usually?
sheesh!
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I scored a 23! Just below borderline ADD. According to that test just about everybody must be some level of ADD (24-100). Maybe I need some expensive medication and therapy.
[I guess the killer was my difficulty in paying attention to boring crap, though I did manage to read all of "Arms for Spain" that covered how the various powers provided arms to the Republican faction fighting in Spain.]
Charon
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It has been my experience in education Rip that it is not the teachers who cry about ADD/HD. It is the parents who use it as an excuse for their kids misbehavior, lack of attention in class, and the resulting poor grades.
I am the dean of 9th and 10th grade boys at my school (I deal with the discipline issues). I have never had a teacher come and tell me that the reason that a child misbehaves is due to ADD. I have the parents who try to pass off their behavior as that. The biggest reason that I see with kids who are defiant and disruptive is that they seem to have a sense of entitlement and not that they have to earn something. They do not understand the difference between a privelege and a right.
In my job, I have noticed that it is the kids who spend little time with their parents who are the ones most likely to get into trouble. Those who spend time with their parents are the ones who succeed. A parent (or parents) who take an interest in their kid's life and education as a parent and not a friend seem to be the ones who have children that they can be proud of and not one that they need to make excuses for.
That is my 2/5 of a nickel's worth, take it how you will.
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Beat your kids so they will be good at sports!!!
Shut up Mathman, he knows more about teaching and teachers than you.
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Originally posted by Furious
Beat your kids so they will be good at sports!!!
Of course, that works too!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
17 here. But I've been drinking coffee.
:rofl :aok
9 here :eek: (although this BBS distracts me from my work on occasion :D:D )
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Originally posted by Mathman
It has been my experience in education Rip that it is not the teachers who cry about ADD/HD. It is the parents who use it as an excuse for their kids misbehavior, lack of attention in class, and the resulting poor grades.
I am the dean of 9th and 10th grade boys at my school (I deal with the discipline issues). I have never had a teacher come and tell me that the reason that a child misbehaves is due to ADD. I have the parents who try to pass off their behavior as that. The biggest reason that I see with kids who are defiant and disruptive is that they seem to have a sense of entitlement and not that they have to earn something. They do not understand the difference between a privelege and a right.
In my job, I have noticed that it is the kids who spend little time with their parents who are the ones most likely to get into trouble. Those who spend time with their parents are the ones who succeed. A parent (or parents) who take an interest in their kid's life and education as a parent and not a friend seem to be the ones who have children that they can be proud of and not one that they need to make excuses for.
That is my 2/5 of a nickel's worth, take it how you will.
I'll agree with you that it may be the parenting as well. My aim was not to really point a finger, but to point out that the problem is used as an excuse to drug a kid that may not need the medication., which is not right IMO.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'll agree with you that it may be the parenting as well. My aim was not to really point a finger, but to point out that the problem is used as an excuse to drug a kid that may not need the medication., which is not right IMO.
May be parenting? Who raises the kids? If you want to, I will send you a copy of my contract so you can point to me where it says that I have to raise someone else's child as a teacher.
You may not have wanted to point a finger, but you clearly did with this statement:
There are some valid cases, but not as many as teachers WANT you to believe there are...usually it means the teacher is not willing to work harder with the kids
Yes, I take offense to this statement. Yes, there are teacehrs who only "teach" to get a paycheck. Just like their are some people who work at Boeing and spend all their time on the internet posting to bulletin boards about flight sims and BMW's. Are all Boeing employees like this? I would be willing to bet they aren't, but wouldn't they be upset if I made broad generalizations based on the actions of a few?
If you didn't want to point fingers, all you had to do was say:
the problem is used as an excuse to drug a kid that may not need the medication., which is not right IMO.
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Oh, and I am done with this, I get to go teach now.
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Yes, you are absolutely correct, parents are definately at fault, I stand corrected. Teachers do not have the time to spend with individual children however correct me if I am wrong, but do they ever recommend to parents that they should be tested for AHAD?
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First of all ADD and ADHD is a legitimate disability, However it is over diagnosed these days. I took that test and scored a 62. I don't have ADD I have what is called depression and Axiety disorders. I was never a problem child and rarely "acted out". My parents believed in disipline ... and I don't mean spankings on a regular basis either ... disipline means many things to many people for my parents it meant "NO is NO" if I did it any way I got grounded, privleges taken away and on rare occasions when what I did was dangerous or harmful to another grounded to my room.
Using the diagnosis of ADD as an excuse for a childs miss behavior is WRONG! If you have a diagnosis you have a treatment therefore if the behavior is caused from ADD it should stop or reduce once treatment and therapy has started. It should also be noted that children who DO have ADD need disipline more than others.
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Originally posted by mora
Have you ever taken a ADHD quiz (http://psychcentral.com/addquiz.htm) ? 99% of people have those symptoms, IMHO it's pretty much a made up disease. I scored 47.
If you can sit still and concentrate long enough to finish the test, you probably don't have a very serious case of it, no matter what your score. :D
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Originally posted by Sandman
There can be discipline without corporal punishment.
yeah your avatar explain what you mean
LOL
edit.: damm im not frist :D
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Interesting that so many equate a beating to corporal punishment.
Hmmmm.
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THERE ARE NO BAD CHILDREN JUST BAD PARENTS.....
I spanked my son once and left a welt. Worse feeling in the world. Never spanked him again. He now does pushups and it seems to work more.
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Originally posted by jamusta
THERE ARE NO BAD CHILDREN JUST BAD PARENTS.....
I spanked my son once and left a welt. Worse feeling in the world. Never spanked him again. He now does pushups and it seems to work more.
Originally posted by Ripsnort
A spanking should NEVER leave marks or welts, if it does, you probably should not be spanking your child as you are letting your own anger get out of control.
Yep, its not recommended for everyone. And FWIW, every child is slightly different, I've hardly ever had to spank my youngest, just barking at him gets him straightened out...
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We need a stronger America. All children join the Ripler Youth!
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You better watch out. Mathman has one of those long wooden paddles. With holes in it.
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Originally posted by myelo
You better watch out. Mathman has one of those long wooden paddles. With holes in it.
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by Creamo
We need a stronger America. All children join the Ripler Youth!
Hey, how come I won $500 in Black jack in just 20 mins. this past week end?:cool: ( stopped after that...I'm a bettor, not a gambler)
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Where in the hell did that come from? Anyway, of course you won. How could a casino outfox the omnipotent bettor? I can only imagine the pit-boss feeling powerless as you sat down. It’s a good thing there are gamblers, or I’d have to start paying state taxes. Plus we all knew you’re superior and successful in everything you do. And the more you post to a flightsim board to reassure yourself that, noone is really doubting or laughing at you. It's not odd at all. Really.
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You replied that way just to hurt my feelings didn't you!? :mad: ;)
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Actually, I think he did it just to make me laugh. Thanks Creamo!
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Originally posted by mora
Have you ever taken a ADHD quiz (http://psychcentral.com/addquiz.htm) ? 99% of people have those symptoms, IMHO it's pretty much a made up disease. I scored 47.
Guess you don't have any friends with ADHD kids. You better believe when I say that there is visible difference between childs of same family; two without it and one with ADHD.
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Originally posted by Airhead
More important than spanking a child is spending time with a child. We sacrificed my wife's income so she could stay home with our daughter, and we've never regretted our decision. It meant we couldn't afford a BMW and had to drive a Taurus, but in the long run it's been worth it- they have 19 years of closeness and love that can't be bought for any price.
Now, spanking at eight years old? If it's necessary to spank a child at eight years old then something went wrong when the child was seven, or six, or five, or four, or three....
agree 100% - the wife and I did the same for our spawn.
I think a factor for families with 2 working parents is that they get their child home from day care after work and they want to spend "quality" time with their kids, and they are hesitant to discipline.
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We used to have terrible problems with our son when he was very young.... he had a phase where he would have temper tantrums for no apparent reason and I'm afraid that on more than one occasion I had to resort to smacking him. I was getting to the end of my tether and was seriously worried that I might really hurt him one day.
Then we met a woman, purely by chance, who witnessed one of his tantrums. She asked if we had tried taking him off artificial colours...... I had no idea what she meant, and she explained about artificial additives and how certain artificial colours - notabley tartrazine (E102) - which could cause behaviour problems in children. We were by now willing to try anything, and were horrified to discover that this additive was present in his favourite drink, orange squash! He used to drink gallons of it.... also various sweets, especially Smarties, had lots of colour additives too.
We explained to him what we were doing, and he accepted it very well..... and within about 2 weeks he was like a different person - the change in him was astounding! We never had any more problems after that, and he knew himself what he could eat/drink and what he couldn't.... if someone offered him some Smarties, he would say No, he couldn't eat them.
I'm not totally against smacking, sometimes it's needed.... but sometimes it seems the answer is totally unexpected. He has since grown to be a very well-behaved and polite young man, of whom I am very proud, and I am really glad we met that lady one day when he was young. :D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Of course it could just be that his kid has ADDHD and yours don't...
My son was diagnosed ADDHD, what a crock of crap. He's a lot better now that he is off of those mind altering drugs. Behaviour is better, grades are better, and life is better. He has his moments still, he get's his hide tanned, but at least he isn't plastered.
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I spanked my kids everytime they needed it from the ages of 2 to 4 or 5ish. I haven't laid a hand on either in years and there's never been a reason to. They're polite, well-mannered, and as far as kids go, well-behaved. Setting a foundation of boundaries early in a childs life is the most important part of parenting as far as I'm concerned. I wish they'd bring corporal punishment back to elementary schools too. It only took me 1 spanking in 1st grade to realize it wasn't something I wanted to encounter very often.
Just my 2 cents.
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My father used to make me go cut my own switch off the tree LOL no kidding .
And man he could wield that thing like Zoro OUCH!!
As far as teachers spanking my kids If I ever have any LOL .
I would not like someone else touching my child Im afraid Of what I might have to do to them If they did.
But parents should have that right to spank If needed.
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Flossie, could it have been the sugar, not the additives?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
...the problem is used as an excuse to drug a kid that may not need the medication., which is not right IMO.
What's even more "not right" is taking a kid who has a well documented medical disorder and making him think his problems are due to some kind of moral deficiency, then making the problem worse by physically abusing him and denying him treatment for the medical condition.
I'm not saying you are doing this to your kids, or it describes the other guy's situation or anything like that, just presenting an alternate view. I got plenty of "corporal punishment" and did plenty of "running" as a kid and it didn't do a damn thing to help me. What helped me was dealing with the underlying medical problem.
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I think if you're spanking your child after they're five or so, you have a problem that spanking isn't going to fix. Most children learn who is in absolute authority before they're 3. They're may be *few* occaisions where you need to smack their bottom after, just to remind them, but if one is consistantly spanking a child over 5 or so, its just plain useless or worse, abuse.
Spanking means rapping a toddler's behind to get they're attention. Its more psychological than physical. Hitting a child with an object (like a belt or a switch) or with enough force to leave a mark is beating a child and not spanking.
But I have no problem with corporal punishment if its limited to its psychological effect and not to cause physical pain, which pretty much rules it out for any case over 5 (schoolage).
Funny, few people talk about the psychological abuse of children, i.e, the use of guilt as punishment. IMO, using guilt on a child is no better than using a 2x4, and if fact may be more damaging over the childs life. Its a lot more common than physical abuse, but stiill they're are many jokes about it (e.g., the stereotypical Jewish mother's knack of inflicting guilt on children).
IMO, if one is still having major discipline issues with children over 8, they have completely missed the window (for setting boundries) or the child has other problems (psychological or even biological). In any case, consulting a proffessional would probably be the best thing for the child.
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You are not catholic, are you?
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Originally posted by Lizking
Flossie, could it have been the sugar, not the additives?
I don't think so, because he still ate and drank sweet things..... it was only artificial colours we concentrated on cutting out. :)
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I wonder how many parents think that age appropriate behaviour is bad behaviour, especially when their child is between 2-4. How horrible if someone punishes third child for displaying behaviour which is perfectly natural for thier age.
My daughter (22 months) whacked me on the head while I was reading the other day. I got ticked off as I didn't think it was appropriate. My wife pointed out that she was just bored and wanted to me to play with her. And as I thought about it I realised that she had sent me tons of signals before she resorted to the whacking. If I had paid more attention to what she was trying to communicate the whacking wouldn't have happened at all. And I need to keep in mind that toddlers can't communicate very well...well that's not necessarily true, but you have to pay attention.
Anyways, there is a correlation between corporal punishment and: anti-social behaviour , agression, abuse of other children, spousal abuse when the child becomes an adult, and mental problems..
The only benefit of corporal punishment is for reinforcing immediate compliance. Which is good and bad. It means if you give a directive there is a better chance that the child will immediately follow it. But it doesn't mean that child will follow the directive why you aren't in view. In fact, it can lead to them hiding their behaviour from you.
And although immediate compliance seems to make parenting easier, in the long run it makes it harder, do to the increase in anti-social behaviour and the detriment to other behaviours.
And exactly what verbalised directives that is given a child really need immediate compliance? I can think of a few. If the child is endangering themselves, others or valuble property, and you can't reach them in time before the damage may occure. So maybe immediate compliance needs to be reinforce just in those contexts.
I also wonder if reinforcing immediate compliance to much turns a child into a "yes-man" sheeple. Will end up being end up being everyones *****?
Decipline means teaching, not punishment. If a child stops a behaviour because of fear of punishment, it doesn't mean they have learned why their behaviour isn't appropriate. It means they've leared that their parents hurt them if they display that behaviour.
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Spare the rod, spoil the child ....
and so true today, both my kids have been been beaten since three years of age and continue to be beaten if they misbehave or I have been drinking.
It's done neither of them any harm and lots of good in my opinion,
Don't let them get confused, any minor transgression should result in the same punishment, and I mean physical.
wipass
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Originally posted by wipass
Spare the rod, spoil the child ....
and so true today, both my kids have been been beaten since three years of age and continue to be beaten if they misbehave or I have been drinking.
Nice troll. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Consequences of Corporal Punishment
Accumulated research supports the theory that corporal punishment is an ineffective discipline strategy with children of all ages and, furthermore, that it is often dangerous. Corporal punishment most often produces in its victims anger, resentment, and low self-esteem. It teaches violence and revenge as solutions to problems, and perpetuates itself, as children imitate what they see adults doing. Research substantiates the following consequences of corporal punishment:
Children whose parents use corporal punishment to control antisocial behavior show more antisocial behavior themselves over a long period of time, regardless of race and socioeconomic status, and regardless of whether the mother provides cognitive stimulation and emotional support (Gunnoe & Mariner, 1997; Kazdin, 1987; Patterson, DeBaryshe, & Ramsey, 1989; Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997).
A consistent pattern of physical abuse exists that generally starts as corporal punishment, and then gets out of control (Kadushin & Martin, 1981; Straus & Yodanis, 1994).
Adults who were hit as children are more likely to be depressed or violent themselves (Berkowitz, 1993; Strassberg, Dodge, Pettit, & Bates, 1994; Straus, 1994; Straus & Gelles, 1990; Straus & Kantor, 1992).
The more a child is hit, the more likely it is that the child, when an adult, will hit his or her children, spouse, or friends (Julian & McKenry, 1993; Straus, 1991; Straus, 1994; Straus & Gelles, 1990; Straus & Kantor, 1992; Widom, 1989; Wolfe, 1987).
Corporal punishment increases the probability of children assaulting the parent in retaliation, especially as they grow older (Brezina, 1998).
Corporal punishment sends a message to the child that violence is a viable option for solving problems (Straus, Gelles, & Steinmetz, 1980; Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997).
Corporal punishment is degrading, contributes to feelings of helplessness and humiliation, robs a child of self-worth and self-respect, and can lead to withdrawal or aggression (Sternberg et al., 1993; Straus, 1994).
Corporal punishment erodes trust between a parent and a child, and increases the risk of child abuse; as a discipline measure, it simply does not decrease children's aggressive or delinquent behaviors (Straus, 1994).
Children who get spanked regularly are more likely over time to cheat or lie, be disobedient at school, bully others, and show less remorse for wrongdoing (Straus, Sugarman, & Giles-Sims, 1997).
Corporal punishment adversely affects children's cognitive development. Children who are spanked perform poorly on school tasks compared to other children (Straus & Mathur, 1995; Straus & Paschall, 1998).
This is the most powerful response in this thread, and it has been largely ignored.
You guys do realize what each (Name, date) represents don’t you? They do not represent one dude’s ideas based on a VERY small sample, a biased opinion, lack of considering thousands of variables, and an unscientific approach and analysis to a question. These are long term scientific studies that generally weed out the possibilities of bias, sample size, and most variables having a serious impact on the findings.
Corporal punishment does work, and it works with immediate results. What is much harder to see right away however, is the long term side effects. What happens when a person most trusted by a child uses physical violence to gain control? What that teaches may not be seen instantly.
One bit of evidence that corporal punishment does more harm than good is evident in that laws have been passed to prevent its use.
eskimo
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Since corporal punishment is is also a political issue ( what isn't now?), there's a lot of crappy science out there illustrating exagerated effects in its use and disuse.
Its convenient to include people who whack their children (however minor the whack) just because the child is agravating them. Thats not corporal punishment, but bullying a child. And I have no doubt that smacking down a child everytime they get on your nerves will create the problems you listed.
Spanking a 2 or 3 year old who refuses to obey a timeout or runs into the street, is quite different. A lot of crappy science out there doesn't distinguish the two.
Laws have been passed banning corporal punishment in schools because its ineffective after a certain age, usually school age. Since an increasing number of parents completely miss the opportunity of establishing authority in their child's life (thank you Dr. Spock), all discipline measures are less effective. Without respect for authority, any punishment is pretty useless. It simply means that they got caught, and next time they'll try not to get caught.
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I didn't bother reading all of this thread, and I had a couple of points I wanted to make, but the thoughts got all jumbled up in my head. Hey, there's a crow stealing twigs from the duck's nest outside. I wonder why the duck doesn't do something about that. Wait, where was I? Oh yeah, I took that ADD quiz. I've only had to spank my nephew once, because he splashed water on a group of girls sitting in front of us and he hasn't misbehaved since. I scored a 15 on the ADD quiz. Now the crow is sitting on the window ledge of my office, staring at me as I write this. Do I start a lot of projects without finishing any of them? Well, I have a bunch of scale models on the bench in various states of completion but that's typical for a lot of modelers so I checked "somewhat" on the ADD quiz. Oh, and kids need a balance of positive and negative reinforcement in order to develop a healthy behavior. They have to learn that there are both positive (a big end-of-year salary bonus) and negative (Congressional hearings, prison time) consequences for their actions. Its ok to be a pacifist so long as you're not afraid to use Roosevelt's Big Stick once in awhile.
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My dad spanked both me and my brother when we were younger, and now we're both in college and leading rather good young adult lives.
Yeah, we did poorly in school and we think violent behavior is a good response to everything...:rolleyes:
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:rolleyes: is right.
Just because it didn't turn out that badly for you doesn't invalidate the research.
One has to wonder though, if you and your brother would have been super-jeanius multi-bajillionaires if your father hadn't spanked you. ;)
eskimo,
"They do not represent one dude’s ideas based on a VERY small sample, a biased opinion, lack of considering thousands of variables, and an unscientific approach and analysis to a question. These are long term scientific studies that generally weed out the possibilities of bias, sample size, and most variables having a serious impact on the findings."
You should read some of the critisms of the research. In some of Strauss's research he includes the use of belts and such as corporal punishment. The use of a weapon is generally considered to be abuse, not corporal punishment.
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Originally posted by texace
My dad spanked both me and my brother when we were younger, and now we're both in college and leading rather good young adult lives.
Yeah, we did poorly in school and we think violent behavior is a good response to everything...:rolleyes:
The most common defense of corporal punishment that I see is, “My parents whooped me when I was bad and I turned out just fine.”
This is a faulty defense. The use of corporal punishment does not mean that a child will become a heartless violent criminal, and once again you are talking about a pretty small sample size. Kids who were raised with other discipline forms also turned out pretty well, so what? Some kids who have terrible childhoods and parents, yet turn out very well, others have everything in the world going for them and end up a disaster. A few examples prove nothing.
The key words in studies that criticize the use of corporal punishment are: more/less likely, can lead to, increases/decreases the risk/likelihood, show more/less, etc. Guarantees are not implied.
What counts in understanding such issues is not pulling out a few first hand examples; but to compare 500 kids who were disciplined with corporal punishment to another 500 similar kids who were NOT disciplined with corporal punishment (similar in socioeconomic, race, region, etc.). When you use such a scientific approach, the problems of using corporal punishment clearly become evident.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
The most common defense of corporal punishment that I see is, “My parents whooped me when I was bad and I turned out just fine.”
This is a faulty defense.
Yoink.
"Fallacy: Appeal to Tradition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also Known as: Appeal to the Old, Old Ways are Best, Fallacious Appeal to the Past, Appeal to Age
Description of Appeal to Tradition
Appeal to Tradition is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
X is old or traditional
Therefore X is correct or better."
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
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From my experience:
Families that do not punish children in the form of a spank or two: Kids end up losers, disrupters, the type you see in the grocery store where they're telling their parents to shove it...
Families that do:
Kids end up very polite, thoughtful, and caring.
That's all I need to know(My own experience). I'm no doctor, but common sense tells me a swat keeps kids in line. (We're not talking "Hitting" as Funks article suggests")
(Caution: the aforementioned experience is only from male children)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
From my experience:
Families that do not punish children in the form of a spank or two: Kids end up losers, disrupters, the type you see in the grocery store where they're telling their parents to shove it...
Families that do:
Kids end up very polite, thoughtful, and caring.
That's all I need to know(My own experience). I'm no doctor, but common sense tells me a swat keeps kids in line. (We're not talking "Hitting" as Funks article suggests")
(Caution: the aforementioned experience is only from male children)
Rip,
I think that you are assuming a lot; that all of the other well behaved children in the store are disciplined with corporal punishment. My personal experience has shown that some parents in stores hit their kids when they act up, and sometimes it only makes the kid’s temper tantrum and crying worse.
The parents of kids in stores who tell their parents to shove it are not representative of the alternative of corporal punishment; they represent no form of punishment or parenting. You are oversimplifying discipline. It is not an issue of spank or do nothing. There lots of very effective discipline options other than spanking. When my kid act-up, she loses TV, computer, or a multitude of other privileges. She learns to behave, and also learns that violence is not an option and that her parents will never hurt her.
eskimo
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"From my experience:
Families that do not punish children in the form of a spank or two: Kids end up losers, disrupters, the type you see in the grocery store where they're telling their parents to shove it...
Families that do:
Kids end up very polite, thoughtful, and caring.
That's all I need to know(My own experience). I'm no doctor, but common sense tells"
Bull. "Common sense" is nothing but a lable for reasoning that one doesn't understand. Nice try on the false humility though to try and lend validity to your arguement. :rolleyes:
"Fallacy: Biased Sample
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also Known as: Biased Statistics, Loaded Sample, Prejudiced Statistics, Prejudiced Sample, Loaded Statistics, Biased Induction, Biased Generalization
Description of Biased Sample
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is biased or prejudiced in some manner. It has the following form:
Sample S, which is biased, is taken from population P.
Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.
The person committing the fallacy is misusing the following type of reasoning, which is known variously as Inductive Generalization, Generalization, and Statistical Generalization:
X% of all observed A's are B''s.
Therefore X% of all A's are Bs. "
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/biased-sample.html
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Originally posted by eskimo2
When my kid act-up, she loses TV, computer, or a multitude of other privileges. She learns to behave, and also learns that violence is not an option and that her parents will never hurt her.
eskimo
Well, speaking for my kids, they did not even know what a loss of priviledge was at age 2, Eskimo, and I have a hard time believeing yours did as well. Kids don't have the ability to understand what "future" loss of privileges are, unless its immediate (such as taking a toy from their hands at that immediate point in time)
First off, my kids never acted up in a store. Why? Because first and foremost they are always positively reinforced for good behavior, which lessons the chances of bad behavior. However, they knew what the consequences for bad behavior was, a swat on the butt...thus making good behavior that much more desireable and easy to do from their view. One does NOT work without the other.(Positive reinforcement/negative punishement) You have to have both. If you don't, you're failing as a parent. Now, I can count the numbers on my hand that I've personally had to spank my children, it was very few, however, it was VERY effective, and promoted good behavior, and quickly.
I certainly agree it all depends on the kid, my youngest has been spanked twice, my oldest probably 7 or 8 times...they're all different. I congratulate you if you've never had to spank your child, but there are those of us that have had no choice but to turn to that method, and guess what...it works.
I will never condemn a parent for not spanking a child that didn't deserve it,(All other methods worked) but I *will* condemn a parent for not spanking a child that should have been!
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One does NOT work without the other.(Positive reinforcement/negative punishement) You have to have both. If you don't, you're failing as a parent.
Fortunately this is just not true. Assuming you equate punishment to "swats".
If a positive behavior is fostered through the avoidance of punishment, then the absence of the punisher opens the door to the opposite behavior.
Remember the golden rule of parenting. (OK I'm making it up, but it should be a golden rule)
You are raising future successful adults, not well behaved children. There is a big difference.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Well, speaking for my kids, they did not even know what a loss of priviledge was at age 2, Eskimo, and I have a hard time believeing yours did as well. Kids don't have the ability to understand what "future" loss of privileges are, unless its immediate (such as taking a toy from their hands at that immediate point in time)
First off, my kids never acted up in a store. Why? Because first and foremost they are always positively reinforced for good behavior, which lessons the chances of bad behavior. However, they knew what the consequences for bad behavior was, a swat on the butt...thus making good behavior that much more desireable and easy to do from their view. One does NOT work without the other.(Positive reinforcement/negative punishement) You have to have both. If you don't, you're failing as a parent. Now, I can count the numbers on my hand that I've personally had to spank my children, it was very few, however, it was VERY effective, and promoted good behavior, and quickly.
I certainly agree it all depends on the kid, my youngest has been spanked twice, my oldest probably 7 or 8 times...they're all different. I congratulate you if you've never had to spank your child, but there are those of us that have had no choice but to turn to that method, and guess what...it works.
I will never condemn a parent for not spanking a child that didn't deserve it,(All other methods worked) but I *will* condemn a parent for not spanking a child that should have been!
Clearly immediacy is the key to punishing little ones. I’m sure that you wouldn’t spank a 2 year old for something that they did much earlier. My two year old gets something taken away or time out immediately for misbehavior. My four year old can get time out and lose privileges for misbehavior. At four she understands that her actions can lead to a loss of privileges. An important part of our discipline routine is that she is told why she is in trouble, why she shouldn’t have done what she did, and what a better choice would have been. When she gets out of time out, or refers to a lost privilege, she is asked to explain in her own words why she went to time out or lost the privilege, and what she should have done. Through this process, she clearly shows that she understands.
A week and a half ago the four year old didn’t clean up her room after being ask to a few times. My wife and I put all of her books, toys and clothes that were on the floor into trash bags. Since then she has cleaned her room after the first request.
Last week my two year old ran down the driveway toward the street. My wife and I took turns chewing her out. Then I drew a face on a potato and told her, “This potato is you Britta, and this is what will happen if you get hit by a car.” I then had her watch as I ran the potato over with my car. The way she screamed and cried you’d have thought she saw a puppy get run over. For a two year old, I think that she has a pretty good understanding of how dangerous cars can be. (The problem is she is generally fearless and doesn’t seem to learn after getting hurt.)
My point is; good parenting is not easy or simple. Each situation may require a bit of reasoning, talking, explaining and creativity. IMO, A parent who resorts to spanking has simply run out of good ideas and has resorted to a primal, instinctive and simple approach. Negative reinforcement does not have to include violence to be effective.
eskimo
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Oh great... now she's gonna be scared to death of Mr. Potato Head.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Fortunately this is just not true. Assuming you equate punishment to "swats".
No, I am not equating it to swats..however negative punishment is in most cases an escalation process. Some kids understand sooner than others and change the behavior before it comes to that..
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Originally posted by midnight Target
You are raising future successful adults, not well behaved children. There is a big difference.
Never seen adults who were successful who were not "well-behaved" (which is a broad term) , except for the rare occasional Rap star or Hollywood star.
Respect and responsibility is what I teach.
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I spit on my father once when I was 8.
Hey whooped my little butt.
I never have spit on anyone ever again.
Was It the spanking that taught me the lesson?
I dont know but what ever it was it was a lesson i never forgot.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
IMO, A parent who resorts to spanking has simply run out of good ideas and has resorted to a primal, instinctive and simple approach.
eskimo
Obviously we disagree here, and I certainly disagree with "simple approach"...kids tend to understand simple approaches, why complicate things for a mind still developing. If X happens, Y will happen, if X continues to happen, Z will happen. K.I.S.S.
Originally posted by eskimo2
Negative reinforcement does not have to include violence to be effective.
eskimo
Here we agree...it does not HAVE to include, but where we differ in opinion is that I believe it should be used as a last resort when all else fails, if not, then you have "an Austin" like my original post displayed.
Neither of us is wrong or right, we each have a different approach to it. And, I might add, try having two sons, girls are easy compared to boys for behaviorial problems at a young age.
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Originally posted by txmx
I spit on my father once when I was 8.
Hey whooped my little butt.
I never have spit on anyone ever again.
Was It the spanking that taught me the lesson?
I dont know but what ever it was it was a lesson i never forgot.
\
My father claims I was spanked on more than one occasion but I do not remember it. I do remember at age 5 of losing some privileges because I used one of his antique fishing poles for a sword, but by that age spanking was long gone.
Just having him in my face put the fear of God in me, and straightened out any unwanted behavior.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
\
Just having him in my face put the fear of God in me, and straightened out any unwanted behavior.
I know what you mean LOL.
My Dad was a retierd Marine and he ran the house like boot camp.
Nothing like having to wear your hair high and tight during high school in the 70s LOL.
But his strong hand is what kept me from ever doing something stupid and going to prison or getting killed.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Yoink.
"Fallacy: Appeal to Tradition
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also Known as: Appeal to the Old, Old Ways are Best, Fallacious Appeal to the Past, Appeal to Age
Description of Appeal to Tradition
Appeal to Tradition is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
X is old or traditional
Therefore X is correct or better."
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-tradition.html
Wrong fallacy, I think it's this one: http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/hasty-generalization.html
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I like the pushups idea, whoever posted that one.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
I like the pushups idea, whoever posted that one.
LOL, try getting a 2 yr old to do push ups, and watch them giggle.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Obviously we disagree here, and I certainly disagree with "simple approach"...kids tend to understand simple approaches, why complicate things for a mind still developing. If X happens, Y will happen, if X continues to happen, Z will happen. K.I.S.S.
Here we agree...it does not HAVE to include, but where we differ in opinion is that I believe it should be used as a last resort when all else fails, if not, then you have "an Austin" like my original post displayed.
Neither of us is wrong or right, we each have a different approach to it. And, I might add, try having two sons, girls are easy compared to boys for behaviorial problems at a young age.
Rip,
“Simple” was part of “primal, instinctive and simple”. Combined with these other two words the implication is that the parent is resorting to primitive behavior instead of thinking the problem through.
Girls tend to have their own issues, and most importantly, every child is different. My 2 year old is a hundred times more defiant than her big sister (just now she got out of her booster chair and sat on her unfinished dinner; she was then sent to time out without dessert). I do have boys, (about 240 of them, ages 5 to 14) and have a very good idea what they are like. I discipline both boys and girls five days a week.
You say that you only spank as a last resort, when all else fails. I can’t believe that you have tried EVERYTHING. You indicated that discipline for little ones needs to be immediate. When you resort to spanking, do you do so immediately? If so, it sounds as if you didn’t really take the time to try everything else.
eskimo
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Originally posted by eskimo2
Rip,
“Simple” was part of “primal, instinctive and simple”. Combined with these other two words the implication is that the parent is resorting to primitive behavior instead of thinking the problem through.
Girls tend to have their own issues, and most importantly, every child is different. My 2 year old is a hundred times more defiant than her big sister (just now she got out of her booster chair and sat on her unfinished dinner; she was then sent to time out without dessert). I do have boys, (about 240 of them, ages 5 to 14) and have a very good idea what they are like. I discipline both boys and girls five days a week.
You say that you only spank as a last resort, when all else fails. I can’t believe that you have tried EVERYTHING. You indicated that discipline for little ones needs to be immediate. When you resort to spanking, do you do so immediately? If so, it sounds as if you didn’t really take the time to try everything else.
eskimo
Well, all I can say is the results speak for themselves. My 2nd grader is doing late-term 3rd grade math, only one other child in his 2nd grade class is doing this. He's had all "3" on his report cards since kindergarten (measured "1, 2 and 3" for performance)
My pre-schooler read at age 5, alone with no parental help (I love flash cards!). No other kids are doing this in his class, mom and dad must read to them. The school nurse called me 3 weeks ago to let us know that my 2nd grader was coming home with a cut on his cheek, told me the low down of what happened. 5 min later she called back and said "your son is the most respectful, polite child I've ever met in 20 years of being a school nurse! I just had to tell you!"
So, in essence, yeah, couple spanks now and then isn't going to hurt them, and the positive reinforcement along with spending maximum time with them lessens the chances of of having to resort to negative punishment.
Did I tell you the oldest son has hit 10 home runs and has a .889 batting avg. after 8 games so far this season? Proud father. We've taught them respect, we've taught them patience, and we've taught them to be polite. When they got out of hand, they knew what the consequences were, and those times they got out of hand were few and in between because no one likes a spanking. ;)
On the other hand, Austin (just one example) who's rarely disciplined, never spanked, is doing poorly in school, is a bully, constantly in trouble, worse player on our baseball team, and is reading kindergarten level as a 2nd grader. Thats just one of the examples of poor parenting, lack of negative punishment I could give you.
And, girls are a breeze at this age, I envy you. :) (The neighbors have 2 girls identical ages as my sons...)
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Wait until they are teenagers.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Wait until they are teenagers.
I understand. Just saying at this age, girls are easier. Thats a fact. :)
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At that age, they are all easier. Trust me. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman
At that age, they are all easier. Trust me. :)
Interesting you should say that..my wife took our boys over to a friends house who has 2 girls, a year older than each of our children. After 2 hours, my wife said of her friend that "She looked shell-shocked, she asked if boys are normally that highly charged, and the fact that she now appreciates anyone with male children..."
;)
Yep, boys are different. Definately.
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Eh, what can I say. I'm not perfect...my views differ, obviously.
But from what I've seen and dealt with, childer who are not punished or "get off light" never learn anything. They accosiate bad things with such hock has "time-out" or "loss of priviledge" for some time. After they get it back, where's the lesson? It's in there, but it takes so much more time to drill it into a kid's head.
I grew up in the 80's and early 90's...back when it was ok to spank your children. Maybe it's that reason I think that this soft punishment stuff is weak and petty.
Eh, it's just me. :confused:
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Well, all I can say is the results speak for themselves. My 2nd grader is doing late-term 3rd grade math, only one other child in his 2nd grade class is doing this. He's had all "3" on his report cards since kindergarten (measured "1, 2 and 3" for performance)
My pre-schooler read at age 5, alone with no parental help (I love flash cards!). No other kids are doing this in his class, mom and dad must read to them. The school nurse called me 3 weeks ago to let us know that my 2nd grader was coming home with a cut on his cheek, told me the low down of what happened. 5 min later she called back and said "your son is the most respectful, polite child I've ever met in 20 years of being a school nurse! I just had to tell you!"
So, in essence, yeah, couple spanks now and then isn't going to hurt them, and the positive reinforcement along with spending maximum time with them lessens the chances of of having to resort to negative punishment.
Did I tell you the oldest son has hit 10 home runs and has a .889 batting avg. after 8 games so far this season? Proud father. We've taught them respect, we've taught them patience, and we've taught them to be polite. When they got out of hand, they knew what the consequences were, and those times they got out of hand were few and in between because no one likes a spanking. ;)
On the other hand, Austin (just one example) who's rarely disciplined, never spanked, is doing poorly in school, is a bully, constantly in trouble, worse player on our baseball team, and is reading kindergarten level as a 2nd grader. Thats just one of the examples of poor parenting, lack of negative punishment I could give you.
And, girls are a breeze at this age, I envy you. :) (The neighbors have 2 girls identical ages as my sons...)
So your kids are "superkids" because their parents spank them? How do you know that it's the spanking that makes them so great? My guess it's because their dad has a carpeted garage. I bet Austin's dad doesn't have a carpeted garage... That's got to be it! Perhaps you should tell Austins dad to carpet his garage too.
eskimo
eskimo
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
There are some valid cases, but not as many as teachers WANT you to believe there are...usually it means the teacher is not willing to work harder with the kids, and/or the kid suffers from disciplinary problems (lack of) at home. I'm sure Austin (my subject I used in my original post) would have been diagnosed with ADHD had he been in a larger, inner city school. Luckily, we have small classrooms out in the 'Burbs, and the teachers are more than willing to work with kids like Austin alittle harder.
I don't know what the hell was wrong with my kid, which Ritalin had a major positive effect on... but if it wasn't ADHD, I would have turned to an exorcist.
....and I'm a firm believer in corporal punishment (distributed by parents and parents only).
Tumor
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You sound like my dad, Rip. :D
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interesting thread..
Ironic how being the polite quiet one gets gold stars in kindergarden but goes unrewarded in the adult world. Especially in America, that competitiveness, that willingness to push boundaries, to go out and compete is what is rewarded.
Since everyone else is junking the empirical study route...my gut says you gotta leave boys a little bit wild...they need to experience success and failure -- and the less it happens in the little-leaguey parent-controlled environments the better. They'll be better off in the end game.
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The biggest lesson from my childhood was when I was put on "observation class" for one day after misbehaving in school. Observation class is a class where all the trouble childs are put when everything else has failed, 75% of them turn out criminals and/or junkies. I behaved considerably better afterwards.:)