Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Staga on May 05, 2004, 05:36:57 AM
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The full text of a letter from some 50 retired US diplomats urging President Bush to reverse his Middle East policy.
[ripsnorted]
Dear Mr President:
We former US diplomats applaud our 52 British colleagues who recently sent a letter to Prime Minister Tony Blair criticising his Middle East policy and calling on Britain to exert more influence over the United States.
As retired foreign service officers we care deeply about our nation's foreign policy and US credibility in the world.
We also are deeply concerned by your April 14 endorsement of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's unilateral plan to reject the rights of three million Palestinians, to deny the right of refugees to return to their homeland, and to retain five large illegal settlement blocs in the occupied West Bank.
This plan defies UN Security Council resolutions calling for Israel's return of occupied territories.
You have placed US diplomats, civilians and military doing their jobs overseas in an untenable and even dangerous position
It ignores international laws declaring Israeli settlements illegal.
It flouts UN Resolution 194, passed in 1948, which affirms the right of refugees to return to their homes or receive compensation for the loss of their property and assistance in resettling in a host country should they choose to do so.
And it undermines the Road Map for peace drawn up by the Quartet, including the US. Finally, it reverses longstanding American policy in the Middle East.
Your meeting with Sharon followed a series of intensive negotiating sessions between Israelis and Americans, but which left out Palestinians.
In fact, you and Prime Minister Sharon consistently have excluded Palestinians from peace negotiations.
Former Palestinian Information Minister Yasser Abed Rabbo voiced the overwhelming reaction of people around the world when he said: "I believe President Bush declared the death of the peace process today".
A return to the time-honored American tradition of fairness will reverse the present tide of ill will in Europe and the Middle East - even in Iraq
By closing the door to negotiations with Palestinians and the possibility of a Palestinian state, you have proved that the United States is not an even-handed peace partner.
You have placed US diplomats, civilians and military doing their jobs overseas in an untenable and even dangerous position.
Your unqualified support of Sharon's extra-judicial assassinations, Israel's Berlin Wall-like barrier, its harsh military measures in occupied territories, and now your endorsement of Sharon's unilateral plan are costing our country its credibility, prestige and friends.
It is not too late to reassert American principles of justice and fairness in our relations with all the peoples of the Middle East.
Support negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis, with the United States serving as a truly honest broker.
A return to the time-honored American tradition of fairness will reverse the present tide of ill will in Europe and the Middle East - even in Iraq.
Because the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is at the core of the problems in the Middle East, the entire region - and the world - will rejoice along with Israelis and Palestinians when the killing stops and peace is attained.
Signatories include
Andrew I Killgore, Ambassador to Qatar, 1977-1980
Richard H Curtiss, former chief inspector, US Information Agency
Colbert C Held, Retired FSO and author
John Gunther Dean, former Ambassador to India
Thomas J Carolan, Counsel General Istanbul, '88-'92
C Edward Bernier, Counselor of Embassy, Information and Culture, Islamabad, Pakistan
Donald A Kruse, American Consul in Jerusalem
Ambassador Edward L Peck, former Chief of Mission in Iraq and Mauritania
John Powell, Admin Counselor in Beirut, '75-'76
John Gunther Dean, last position held US Ambassador to India
Greg Thielmann, Director, Office for Strategic Proliferation and Military Affairs, Bureau of Intelligence and Research
James Akins, Ambassador to Saudi Arabia
Talcott Seeyle, Ambassador to Syria
Eugene Bird, Counselor of Embassy in Saudi Arabia
Richard H Nolte, Ambassador to Egypt
Ray Close, Chief of Station Jeddah, Saudi Arabia 1971-1979
Shirl McArthur, Commercial Attache, Bangkok
Thomas J Scotes, Ambassador to Yemen 1975-1978
Robert V Keeley, Ambassador to Greece
Edward RM Kane, CIA Deputy Chief of Station in Iraq
[/ripsnorted]
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3681999.stm
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About time.
Retired people who have served their countries in government, usually have an enormous amount of experience in their fields and ought to have a collective voice to be heard, whether in opposition to the Government of the day or in support of it. Being retired they really can speak 'without fear or favour'.
Ravs
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Traitors.
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Will not last long and you will see their photos, e-mail adress and telephone numbers here in.
And a request to 'have fun' with them.
Ecke
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hmm... I allways thought that retired people were just people out of touch with what was happening...
Truth be told... most of em were pretty much out of touch several years before their official retirement.
lazs
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"to deny the right of refugees to return to their homeland"
The inclusion of this statement makes the letter very suspicious to me. If the Palestenian refugees were allowed to return to their old homes from the 1940s that would likely mean the end of the state of Israel as a Jewish nation. Thats hardly an impartial or nuanced statemt from these diplomats and is very much in contrast to the reasonable calls for US policy moderation elsewhere in the letter.
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So Grun supports "Lebensraum"-ideology?
Somehow I'm not surprised :)
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Guess who wrote this:
Without consideration of "traditions" and prejudices, it must find the courage to gather our people and their strength for an advance along the road that will lead this people from its present restricted living space to new land and soil, and hence also free it from the danger of vanishing from the earth or of serving others as a slave nation.
For it is not in colonial acquisitions that we must see the solution of this problem, but exclusively in the acquisition of a territory for settlement, which will enhance the area of the mother country, and hence not only keep the new settlers in the most intimate community with the land of their origin, but secure for the total area those advantages which lie in its unified magnitude.
Sounds like it came from Ariel Sharon's pen, doesn't it?
Surprise; it's from "Mein Kampf"; written by certain corporal.
Funniest thing is that US is supporting a country which acts almost like nazi-germany in thirties.
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Originally posted by lazs2
hmm... I allways thought that retired people were just people out of touch with what was happening...
Truth be told... most of em were pretty much out of touch several years before their official retirement.
lazs
Bit of a generalisation there, Lazs. Many retired people do some very good work. It may be a cultural difference between us, but older people often have wisdom and experience that younger people lack.
I'm surprised you have the information available to say they were 'out of touch' before their retirement. Diplomats, when they are in service, usually play very essential roles that are 'low key' as far as public appearances and statements are concerned.
Or are you just stirring the pot? ;)
Ravs
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Originally posted by Staga
Guess who wrote this:
Sounds like it came from Ariel Sharon's pen, doesn't it?
Surprise; it's from "Mein Kampf"; written by certain corporal.
Funniest thing is that US is supporting a country which acts almost like nazi-germany in thirties.
Please be carefull with such statements. Even though I'm not a friend of Isreal politcs it is totally wrong to compare this to Nazi Deutschland and u surely know why.
I hate those comparism (they only work with Bush and Hitler :D ;) ). Isreal is Isreal and Nazis are Nazis.
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... and Israel is practising "Lebensraum"-ideology thought I'm quite sure they don't call it with that term.
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Originally posted by Staga
... and Israel is practising "Lebensraum"-ideology thought I'm quite sure they don't call it with that term.
That doesnt make them to Nazis.
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Originally posted by Duedel
That doesnt make them to Nazis.
sure not
it makes them on "like" nazi in eyes of msny people.
anyway how did Blair&Bush react on those letters?
im wondering nobody call them terrorist lovers yet :D
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And staga supports the holocaust against the Jewish people... You just want all those awful Jews gone, that puts a twinkle in your cold blue eyes, dont it aryan boy?
Somehow I'm not surprised.....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And staga supports the holocaust against the Jewish people... You just want all those awful Jews gone, that puts a twinkle in your cold blue eyes, dont it aryan boy?
Somehow I'm not surprised.....
Is this a joke or another proof of ur malfunction?
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Ecke-109-
That is a pretty lame statement
There is a big difference between this and what that little tool said about Tillman and this.
These people if it is real are expressing their opinions without pissing on someone’s grave.
Both parties have every right to do what they did, but at least these showed a little class and kept it from being an attack on a dead hero.
Moral posturing from some who’s country gassed 6 million plus people is always amusing though.
(do not give us any of the, that was not my Germany BS, if people on this board can criticize the United States for atrocities that happened over a hundred years ago, I think it is fair to blame the people of Germany for closing their eyes and letting the Nazi’s do what they did These were you grandfathers and grandmothers in all likely hood. )
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
(do not give us any of the, that was not my Germany BS, if people on this board can criticize the United States for atrocities that happened over a hundred years ago, I think it is fair to blame the people of Germany for closing their eyes and letting the Nazi’s do what they did These were you grandfathers and grandmothers in all likely hood. )
doesn't this equaly lame ?
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sure Straffo, a little but no more lame then the guys who hate or think the US is bad because of the indian stuff. :D
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Originally posted by Duedel
Please be carefull with such statements. Even though I'm not a friend of Isreal politcs it is totally wrong to compare this to Nazi Deutschland and u surely know why.
I hate those comparism (they only work with Bush and Hitler :D ;) ). Isreal is Isreal and Nazis are Nazis.
Sure they are...
(http://peru.indymedia.org/uploads/pic3.jpg)
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Nice Wall!!!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
And staga supports the holocaust against the Jewish people... You just want all those awful Jews gone, that puts a twinkle in your cold blue eyes, dont it aryan boy?
If is it for me, i prepared somethink special regarding my eyes :D
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"to deny the right of refugees to return to their homeland"
The inclusion of this statement makes the letter very suspicious to me. If the Palestenian refugees were allowed to return to their old homes from the 1940s that would likely mean the end of the state of Israel as a Jewish nation. Thats hardly an impartial or nuanced statemt from these diplomats and is very much in contrast to the reasonable calls for US policy moderation elsewhere in the letter.
The letter says:
We also are deeply concerned by your April 14 endorsement of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's unilateral plan to reject the rights of three million Palestinians, to deny the right of refugees to return to their homeland, and to retain five large illegal settlement blocs in the occupied West Bank.
I think it's the unilateral nature they object to.
Anyone with any sense knows the right of return is the main thing the Palestinians have to give up in negotiations. In return, territory (the West Bank and Gaza) is the main thing Israel has to give up in negotiations.
Denying the right of return before negotiations means the Palestinians have already conceeded before reaching the table.
It makes peace less likely because the Palestinians can't hope to gain what they need from talks, and Israel is in a position where it feels it can then wring futher concessions from the Palestinians.
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all this from a guy who has a UN flag for an avitar. The UN doesnt care about anything else than the UN. It is a worthless body and about as effective as a school crossing guard.
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yes gunslider un doesnt have any claws.
Btw. did note somethink very interesting about date regarding road map this week ?
there were **4** subjects.
1. Us
2. israel
3. UN
*4. EU*
this is probably first time, when Eu represent itself as Eu regarding these matters.
It will be interesting to see what will they try to achieve as Eu.
It remind me same stuff before WW2... "About us, without us.", in Munich
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Israel is Israel and Nazis are Nazis.
Originally posted by Sandman
Sure they are...
(http://peru.indymedia.org/uploads/pic3.jpg)
I thought it was the commies who made walls.
And the Han Dynasty...
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Originally posted by Duedel
Is this a joke or another proof of ur malfunction?
How come you didnt ask staga the same question?
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Originally posted by ravells
About time.
Retired people who have served their countries in government, usually have an enormous amount of experience in their fields and ought to have a collective voice to be heard, whether in opposition to the Government of the day or in support of it.
Ravs
I don't know how it is in the UK, but in the US ambassadors are largely chosen on the basis of how much money they raise for the President's election campaign. They are usually not 'unbiased' civil servants.
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GtoRA2,
You are mixing up a lot and its hard to take your post serious.
Moral posturing from some who’s country gassed 6 million plus people is always amusing though.
Thats classy. Dont you have any better arguments? You need to go back 60years in history to just tell me that i better should shut up?
Yes, we gassed, hung up,let starve, killed with bullets and bombs and whatever comes to your mind ..we did it. 6 millions? NO! At least 20 millions died, because we decided to follow the wrong leadership! And we payed a very high price for doing so. And still pay nowadays.
You dont need to be amused about my so called 'moral posturing'.(btw real moral posturing looks different to me)
Dont take it so easy! You need to understand that you cant deny our right to speak out loud. Hey 20 millions dead!! Germany has a first hand experience which you never will have!...hopefully.
My grandpa died in Stalingrad, my grandma which lived in former Prussia had to flee with her little daughter (my mom) from the incoming red army at the very last second.
Believe it or not...we learned our lesson the tough way. As we deserved it and more. We learned a lot through that. we learned i.e. what it means to be responsible. And this gives us the right to speak. Even when someone like you is just 'amused' and never ever will learn anything.
...if people on this board can criticize the United States for atrocities that happened over a hundred years ago,....
Oh man, you are so sensible. You shure can tell me where i posted something like that?
You must have found a rotten apple around here (no hard task btw) and now judging the whole basket for that? Wake up! That is primitive thinking.
There is a big difference between you and me. I dont blame a whole country because of a couple of rotten apples. Like you do. I only blame the rotten apples. I know so much gentle fellows (americans and others) in the game, that it is impossible for me to blame a whole country because of a few low minded primitive subjects which stick in this rotten forum nothing else to do than feeding their own prejudices. This is part of my responsibility i mentioned above.
I could tell you much more, but i am tired about this. I better go in to the game now and kill someone...yeah..like my grandfathers did.
Ecke
Btw...what is your ingame handle. Or are you only a poster?
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Nice post Ecke.. Responsibly written.. Salute brother!!
dude
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Ecke,
That was a low blow, on my part, I was in a pissy mood this morning so you got some of that. I know how stupid my post was, but you post just rubbed me the wrong, way cause I did not think the comparisons made sense.
I said 6 million, cause some people denie even that number, (I do not know any germans who do, mostly just american tools. I know the number is much higher as you say)
I am not trying to shut you up, you have as much right as me or anyone to say what you want, lol I just got rubbed the wrong way and trolled/made an bellybutton of myself.
In game handle is GTORA2, and I am a real subscriber, but I have not had much time to play in the last month, since my GF moved away on short notice, and I had to get out of the apartment I was in, all in all the last 30 days or so have been pretty ****ty.... but I can play now and will prolly tonight so if youwant to take me down online thats cool!:D I am pretty damn rusty though.
So I gues since I have never seen anything other then todays post from you that I was anoyed by I was the bigger jerk here, Sorry about that!
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Ecke
I had guessed the content of your post 3 hours before you actually posted it.
You confirmed also that you have a better temper than I ;)
also for you GtoRA2
Ps : Ecke I now why I support you in the squad even with your incessant German chit-chat with Messy and Adri ;)
I'll be back tomorow if I'm able to really fix my main PC
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misread, diregard
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Originally posted by straffo
Ecke
I had guessed the content of your post 3 hours before you actually posted it.
You confirmed also that you have a better temper than I ;)
also for you GtoRA2
Ps : Ecke I now why I support you in the squad even with your incessant German chit-chat with Messy and Adri ;)
I'll be back tomorow if I'm able to really fix my main PC
yeah yeah ... average over tempered fench Josef....
im so happy that you will come back from you vacation and will be back up to cover our nuts
:D
orel
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"I thought it was the commies who made walls.
And the Han Dynasty..."
some countries make walls to keep their people in and others make walls to keep people out... there is a huge difference...
lazs
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I said 6 million, cause some people denie even that number, (I do not know any germans who do, mostly just american tools. I know the number is much higher as you say)
Well as far as I know holocaust denier are hit pretty harder in Germany than in the US .
I can be wrong ,but for exemple I think you can display SS item or even wear SS Item in the USA, don't ever try to do that in Germany !
All the German I know are pretty well informed and instructed about what was done during WWII , and all share the same disgust for Nazism and all the atrocity made by Nazy.
Is certainly one the reasons why I can have German friends when my familly suffered greatly during WWII.
I recognize their acheivement and continous efforts ,I'm proud to have German friends.
But a BBS is the not the place to dicuss this.
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Yeah in the US straffo you can own all the SS bull**** and worship hitler if you are dumb enough to fall for the neo nazi BS.
none of it is ilegal. You can may all kinds of Nazi **** on ebay the last time I checked, (WW2 stuff not Nazi but it was mixed in) but that was years ago.
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About eBay , I can't legally access those item and I think it's the same for a German.
There was a legal action against eBay and Yahoo taken by French goverment some year sago.
I know for sure that some French cops spend their time on Internet to spot and report Nazi apologist/admirer (and pedophiles too among other things)
That not make France like China but I prefer it this way
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Straffo
I do not understand the pedifile thing? what could they do on ebay??
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France isnt china! Your country is more like stalinist russia.. ;)
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oops sorry I was not clear :)
It's not related to eBay ,I know that some free-speech defender will find strange to know we have police forces monitoring internet ,it was just to specify they not only monitor Nazist but also Pedophil , drug dealer ,terrorist wanabe etc ...
In short : free speech isn't as you can't say whatever pass your head without accountability.
I guess it's no more clearer but I tried :D
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Straffo
I do not understand the pedifile thing? what could they do on ebay??
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Originally posted by -MZ-
I don't know how it is in the UK, but in the US ambassadors are largely chosen on the basis of how much money they raise for the President's election campaign. They are usually not 'unbiased' civil servants.
It's different here. Our civil servants are not chosen on the basis as to how much money they give to politicians. They tend to act as a balancing factor...or inertia.
Ravs
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I've never thought of Israel as very good ally of the United States. Sharon lecturing us after 9/11 is one example. But, OTOH, how could anyone side with the Palestinians? They are close to the dumbest people on the planet. Instead of building schools, learn trades, and trying to advance there culture they just sit in the middle of a cesspool of there own making and throw it at anyone who gets near them. They just scream 'Israel, Israel, Israel.....' as if that's the solution to all their problems. But, if they somehow got rid of the Jews who would be next? The Christians..?
I'm not going to care about helping the Palestinians tell they first try to help themselves.
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Originally posted by lazs2
"I thought it was the commies who made walls.
And the Han Dynasty..."
some countries make walls to keep their people in and others make walls to keep people out... there is a huge difference...
lazs
since separation doesnt not reduce xenofobia, i do not see any diference
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I've never thought of Israel as very good ally of the United States. Sharon lecturing us after 9/11 is one example. But, OTOH, how could anyone side with the Palestinians? They are close to the dumbest people on the planet. Instead of building schools, learn trades, and trying to advance there culture they just sit in the middle of a cesspool of there own making and throw it at anyone who gets near them. They just scream 'Israel, Israel, Israel.....' as if that's the solution to all their problems. But, if they somehow got rid of the Jews who would be next? The Christians..?
I'm not going to care about helping the Palestinians tell they first try to help themselves.
When your shops and homes are getting bulldozed by the Israelis to increase their security cordon and there is 86% unemployment, I should think trying to lead a normal life is pretty tricky.
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lada.. if the people behind the walls are free to come and go as they please then it is different than if the people behind the walls are not free to come and go as they please...
An example of each would be a "gated community" here in the states being compared to a maximum security prison.
lazs
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GtoRA2,
Sorry about that!
Thank you for that. I very much appreciate it.
Ecke
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Originally posted by Dowding
When your shops and homes are getting bulldozed by the Israelis to increase their security cordon and there is 86% unemployment, I should think trying to lead a normal life is pretty tricky.
Do you expect the Israelis to put down a Red Carpet for the bombers or somehow try and protect themselfs? If the Palestinians were trying to learn a trade beyond Pyrotechnics there wouldn't be 86% unemployment.
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Originally posted by lazs2
lada.. if the people behind the walls are free to come and go as they please then it is different than if the people behind the walls are not free to come and go as they please...
An example of each would be a "gated community" here in the states being compared to a maximum security prison.
lazs
even if wall doesnt follow boarder ?
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Here's an interesting take on the 'petition' sent to Pres. Bush. Nice read, but I didn't have time to check the references.
link (http://www.townhall.com/columnists/joelmowbray/jm20040506.shtml)
Joel Mowbray
May 6, 2004
Reflecting the perverse logic that has guided the U.S. State Department for decades, sixty former diplomats have written an open letter to President Bush denouncing the current administration’s “unabashed support” for the sole democracy in the Middle East: Israel.
The hyperbolic screed, released this week, is chock-full of gross overstatements and pure myth.
Yet far more important—and what the media will almost surely overlook—is the stench of bias emanating from almost all of the signers, particularly from the man who organized the effort, former Ambassador Andrew Killgore, who served in Qatar from 1977-1980.
The two-page letter follows the same basic script that has been used by the U.S. Foreign Service more or less since Israel achieved its independence in 1948: “the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is at the core of the problems in the Middle East.”
Blame for the trouble in the entire region—of which Israel holds less than one percent of the territory and less than two percent of the population—is pinned on “Sharon’s extra-judicial assassinations, Israel’s Berlin Wall-like barrier, [and] its harsh military measures in occupied territories.”
Never mind that the “extra-judicial assassinations” are of terrorist masterminds responsible for the mass slaughter of both innocent Israelis and brainwashed young Palestinians. Or that Israel’s security fence is the furthest thing from a “Berlin Wall-like barrier.”
The letter also dabbles in fiction, stating, “By closing the door to negotiations with Palestinians and the possibility of a Palestinian state, you have proved that the U.S. is not an evenhanded peace partner.”
George W. Bush was the first U.S. president to endorse formally the goal of a Palestinian state, albeit one with leaders free from terrorist ties. Standing firm with Sharon’s plan to combat terrorist leaders in no way conflicts with his explicit desire for a Palestinian state.
Israel is obviously imperfect and hardly beyond reproach, but the moral compass of these statesmen is seriously skewed.
Almost none has ever given more than lip service to the idea of condemning suicide bombings, and many of them have made their Golden years truly “golden” indeed, courtesy of the deep pockets of the Arab nations in which they formerly were stationed.
As noxious as the track records of many of the former diplomats may be, perhaps none is as toxic as that of the man who spearheaded the whole effort, former Ambassador Andrew Killgore. A quick inspection of his history shows that he should be the last person giving lessons on “evenhandedness.”
Killgore may or may not be an anti-Semite, but he certainly could be mistaken for one. That is a strong statement, to be sure, but it seems a fair assessment after spending some time at the website for the Washington Report on Middle East Affairs (http://www.wrmea.com), of which he is the co-founder and publisher.
The site’s front page keeps a counter only of foreign aid money given to Israel. It calls for ending all military aid to Israel, though there is no similar call for ending the exact same level of aid given each year to Egypt for the same purpose, an arrangement that has existed since the Camp David Accords in 1978.
Killgore’s website also has a “Neocon Corner,” where he and others castigate one Jew or another for their sinister loyalties to Israel. (One execption was a hit piece on Dick Cheney.) Typical is a recent column on Richard Perle, former head of the Defense Policy Board. In the course of 800 words, Killgore refers to Perle as: a “fervent Zionist,” a “dyed-in-the-wool Israel-Firster,” part of the “Zionist lobby,” “always active in Zionist organizations,” the “Prince of Darkness,” and a “Zionist ideologue.”
On its web page listing 27 “charitable organizations” are several with which no reasonable group would affiliate. Many are well-known for their radical Islamist agendas, and two in particular should have raised red flags: the United Palestinian Appeal and the Kinder USA, both “charitable” organizations who share leadership with the Holy Land Foundation, which was closed in December 2001 for allegedly funneling money to Hamas.
Given Killgore’s clear biases, it is tempting to use the old line about the kettle and the pot. More apt, however, would be the analogy, “said the desert to the grain of sand.”
©2004 Joel Mowbray
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lada... again not sure if I understand what you are saying but... if you are taliking about walls... they are all the same.. "boarders" are in the States as well as within the states... we have "walls" at the mexican border. The walls are not to keep our people in.
lazs
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Lazs that wall does not follow boarder line, it cross boarder on several places and do not keep proper boarder.
Like 2 miles cut here and there... and so on for example
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Originally posted by lada
Lazs that wall does not follow boarder line, it cross boarder on several places and do not keep proper boarder.
Like 2 miles cut here and there... and so on for example
Which boarder?
Where is your outrage at the killings of civilians propogated by the 'palistinian army'?
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Well it was time someone to play that "antisemitism" card... :D
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Anti-semite, anti-christian, anti-muslem, anti-wiccan...
What the hell is the difference?
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what is a "wiccan"?
lazs
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Pagans.
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I thought that pagans were pagans?
lazs
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Lasz
A Wiccan is a type of pagan (like a .38 is a type of handgun).
Ravs