Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Staga on May 05, 2004, 05:50:09 AM
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Kuretsky was found guilty of manslaughter over the killing, was sentenced to six months in prison - though four of them will take the form of community service - and was demoted to the rank of first lieutenant.
Was Hortlund judging in that court ?
Whole Story (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3681551.stm)
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And yet Israel has by far the best system of justice in the entire Middle East.
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I believe staga hates jews even more than he hates Americans. Imagine how he feels about an American jew.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I believe staga hates jews even more than he hates Americans. Imagine how he feels about an American jew.
lazs
Why do u believe this?
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was kidding... don't believe staga hates anyone.
lazs
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Just think, if he were a Palestinian, and had killed a dozen people, he would have been a hero to his people. Then, later, when the Israelis kill him and a couple of his buddies with a rocket attack, the whole world would be furious over this 'political assasination'.
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Agree that it is a very light sentence for a manslaughter conviction and probably doesn't send much a message to the rank and file of the IDF.
That said, where is the article which talks about the Palestinian gunmen who have been convicted by the PA judicial system for "recklessly" wiping out the Israeli mom and her kids last week?
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Originally posted by ra
And yet Israel has by far the best system of justice in the entire Middle East.
i disagree on this one
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Originally posted by lazs2
I believe staga hates jews even more than he hates Americans. Imagine how he feels about an American jew.
lazs
neg. he post facts and he expect some discussion, may be your point of view or defense
but you have no idea how to react, but callinghim jew hater or usa hater.
dont worry ... you are not the only one
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Originally posted by lada
i disagree on this one
Because.........?
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because there are countries with much more sophisticated *criminal* law in ME that Israel have
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Originally posted by lazs2
was kidding... don't believe staga hates anyone.
lazs
i do not agree again..
i belive he hates his financial controler ....
coz its nature :D
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Originally posted by lada
because there are countries with much more sophisticated *criminal* law in ME that Israel have
Such as......?
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iran have much better criminal law that Israel.
if you do not consider 2 months in prison and 4 months of public services to be proper charge per murder of civilian whitch has happen at late 2002.
Law system, where it takes 2 years to put some into the jail for 2 months per murder is in my opinion pretty funny.
what makes you to think its best ?
this link is from same page, whitch staga posted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3685501.stm
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Originally posted by lada
iran have much better criminal law that Israel.
if you do not consider 2 months in prison and 4 months of public services to be proper charge per murder of civilian whitch has happen at late 2002.
Law system, where it takes 2 years to put some into the jail for 2 months per murder is in my opinion pretty funny.
what makes you to think its best ?
this link is from same page, whitch staga posted.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3685501.stm
Lada,
I don't know enough about legal systems other than those which follow the Western model (such as Israel's) so let me ask you this:
1. Does Iranian law have a concept of innocent until proven guilty?
2. Does Iranian law protect fundamental freedoms of the accused, such as the right to counsel, a right against self incrimination, a right against unreasonable search and seizure, a right to a jury trial, protections against forced/unreliable confessions, a right to a speedy hearing before an impartial tribunal, etc.
3. Is there an appeal process under Iranian law?
4. What is the typical punishment for manslaughter under Iranian law (the IDF soldier was not convicted of murder)?
Basically, if you think that countries can do better that the Israeli justice system, then the same must be said for the justice system of every liberal democracy. So does that mean that you would prefer the Iranian legal system to the US, Canadian or UK legal system as well?
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Originally posted by MJHerman
Basically, if you think that countries can do better that the Israeli justice system, then the same must be said for the justice system of every liberal democracy. So does that mean that you would prefer the Iranian legal system to the US, Canadian or UK legal system as well?
First of all im talking about criminal Law, as i said before.
No i would not prefer iranian criminal Law to any other country.
Criminal law as any other law must be made on "local" priciples. if it doesnt raise from local principles, it will not be efficience.
I will try to find all anwears on your question and post links if there will be any.
regarding terms manslaughter and murder.
Do you trying to say, that he killed him acidentaly ?
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Originally posted by lada
First of all im talking about criminal Law, as i said before.
No i would not prefer iranian criminal Law to any other country.
Criminal law as any other law must be made on "local" priciples. if it doesnt raise from local principles, it will not be efficience.
I will try to find all anwears on your question and post links if there will be any.
regarding terms manslaughter and murder.
Do you trying to say, that he killed him acidentaly ?
Manslaughter is defined as "the unlawful killing of a human being without malice aforethought". In other words, it is not premeditated. So, not accidental per se, but at the same time there was no intention to kill. Reckless disregard for another person's life would be the best way to sum up manslaughter.
Murder is where there is a prior intention to kill.
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ok got it
if i see it correctly, its manslaughter untill they prove that soldier were ill or racist for example. right ?
you first question.
yes, confirmed by iranian, whitch is not lawyer, cant find any link regarding this
ad 2).
In all cases Yes, but these two
"protections against forced/unreliable confessions, a right to a speedy hearing before an impartial tribunal"
dont know, can find any info, how is it achieved
ad 3).
Yes, check link below
ad 4). for murder there is death penality
for accidents (car accidents for example) im not sure, its somehow connect to will of family of death person.. realy not sure about this one. Typicaly it could b somethink like 10 years.
will try to ask this one.
Here is few links if you wanna study more about their system,
quite interesting is family Law
http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/world/iran.htm
this is one more link about law, but regarding family law http://www.law.emory.edu/IFL/legal/iran.htm
http://news.findlaw.com/international/s/20040415/iraqirankillingdc.html
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Originally posted by MJHerman
2. a right to a speedy hearing before an impartial tribunal
This is not even available in Eu if im not wrong.
Hey guys is it available in your countries ?
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As far as I under stand he was trialed under military law by the military. This is not exacly the same as the civilian law system.
The sentence IS rediculously light. Had he been trialed by the civilian court, this would have been greatly more severe.
How many Iraqi or Afgan civilians had been killed by the coalition? How many US soldiers were convicted of manslaughter? British?
Polish?
Spaniards?
anyone else?
Bozon
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Originally posted by lada
This is not even available in Eu if im not wrong.
Hey guys is it available in your countries ?
You are wrong (at least in theory) check out the Human Rights Convention.
Ravs
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Originally posted by bozon
As far as I under stand he was trialed under military law by the military. This is not exacly the same as the civilian law system.
The sentence IS rediculously light. Had he been trialed by the civilian court, this would have been greatly more severe.
How many Iraqi or Afgan civilians had been killed by the coalition? How many US soldiers were convicted of manslaughter? British?
Polish?
Spaniards?
anyone else?
Bozon
Not quite Bozon...have a look at this (http://www.sundayherald.com/34963)
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Originally posted by ravells
You are wrong (at least in theory) check out the Human Rights Convention.
Ravs
human rights convention is plain paper for children
things whitch matter are constitution and Law.
HRC is something what should Law and constitution respect.
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Where are you from, lada?
The human rights convention has developing case law in a very big way.
Ravs
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central europe, Czech
you can do what ever you wanna do, but you belongs to constitution and law here....
bad law can be overhanded by constitution
constitution can not be overhanded by anything else here.
whats odd about that ?
ahh i almost forget... since this month there is may be some Eu constitution above, but its not done yet.
if your words were correct sutch thing like EU const. would not be nessecery
HRC can be used here only for foreigners, while they apply for political azil
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So...tell me. Which parts of the HRC don't agree with your constitution?
Ravs
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Iran's Justice System is truly advanced.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2430139.stm
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Although strangely enough, a long time ago, Muslims practised relative freedom of religion whilst Christians were burning people at the stake.
Come the time that muslims can untangle religion from politics the world will be a safer place.
ravs
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Originally posted by lazs2
was kidding... don't believe staga hates anyone.
lazs
errr yes I do... ex-boss, ex-gf, one of my uncles and couple aunts, neighbour's dog...
oh and I loathe idiots and basically everyone who thinks he's better than someone else because of his skin colour, religion or ethnic background. We're all scumbags; some of us are just in denial.
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Wisdom has several forms....
Originally posted by Staga
We're all scumbags; some of us are just in denial.
"I have no color prejudices nor caste prejudices nor creed prejudices. All I care to know is that a man is a human being, and that is enough for me; he can't be any worse."
--Mark Twain
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The sentence IS rediculously light. Had he been trialed by the civilian court, this would have been greatly more severe.
Like Nahum Korman's?
Korman was the security officer for a settlement near Bethlem. In the morning, some Palestinian children had thrown stones at settler's cars.
Korman drove to a nearby village, grabbed an 11 year old child he thought had been involved, knocked him to the ground, stood on his neck, and hit him on the head with the but of his pistol. The boy suffered a fractured skull and his spinal cord was broken. He died the next day in hospital. Korman got 6 months community service.
That was in 1996.
Between the 19th December 1987 and 18th March 2001, Israeli settlers killed 119 Palestinians in the occupied territories.
In six cases, the police did not bother to investigate.
In 39 cases, the investigation was closed with no action.
22 cases resulted in conviction
Six were murder, seven manslaughter, seven negligence, two "firing in a public area", illegal possesion of a weapon, and endangering people on a highway.
4 of the 5 convicted of murder had their sentences reduced or pardons from the president or parole board.
One of those was Yoram Skolnick, who shot dead a Palestinian who was tied up on the ground. Sentenced to life, he was released after 7.5 years.
(In total, the muder convictions were:
Life imprisonment;
Life imprisonment, reduced to 13 years' imprisonment;
Life imprisonment, reduced to 15 years' imprisonment, later reduced to 11.25 years’ imprisonment. The Prisons Service decided to release him after 7.5 years, and the High Court of Justice approved the early release.
Fifteen years' imprisonment, reduced to 12 years' imprisonment, and then to 10 years’ imprisonment.
Sixteen years' imprisonment, reduced to 13 years’ imprisonment.
Sentence has not yet been imposed.
The longest sentence for murdering a Palestinian was 13 years)
5 of those convicted of manslaughter got less than 4 years, one got 7.5 years, one got 6 months community service.
5 of those convicted of causing death by negligence got community service, one got 5 months, one 18 months.
In the same period, Palestinians killed 114 Israeli settlers (read that again, in 14 years, which included the whole of the first intifada and the first 8 months of the second, Israeli settlers killed more Palestinian civilians than Palestinians killed Israel settlers)
Every case was investigated
In 10 case the case was closed
32 people were convicted, 30 for murder, 1 as an accomplice to murder.
17 suspects were killed by the IDF, 2 during the incidents, 15 afterwards
12 houses were demolished, 2 sealed, 8 partially sealed.
None of the convicted were pardoned or had sentences reduced, most are likely to be held in "administrative detention" after their sentences are up.
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And yet Israel has by far the best system of justice in the entire Middle East.
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Originally posted by Otto
Iran's Justice System is truly advanced.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2430139.stm
"The US State Department had earlier issued a statement condemning the verdict as "a breach of accepted international standards of due process", and vowing to stand "with the people of Iran in their quest for greater freedom, prosperity, judicial due process and the rule of law."
Sounds like a good reason to invade to me.
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Nashwan, your knowledge never ceases to amaze me, but I do get the feeling that you do more of fact collecting then of understanding.
how much time SHOULD he be in prison? 1 4 7 10 15 20 years? Is he a "danger to society"?
obviosly 2 month is too little. but how much is enough? How much for those other guys you mentioned? (which by the way, both their releases smelt badly of politics and stirred the anger of the left wing crowd)
what will you do with the american pilot who bombed a wedding in afganistan killing 50? who killed so many Iraqi civillians this past month? I don't see so many trials going on in britain of british soldiers (and I'm not talking about peeing on prisoners crimes).
Bozon
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And yet Israel has by far the best system of justice in the entire Middle East.
I'd certainly agree with that.
how much time SHOULD he be in prison? 1 4 7 10 15 20 years? Is he a "danger to society"?
How much time should you serve for beating a child so badly he dies? I'd say far more than 6 months community service. I'd say at least 7 years.
Ask yourself would he have got community service if he'd been a Palestinian who'd killed a settler's child for throwing stones? Most likely he'd have been convicted of murder, and sentenced to life.
Is he a "danger to society"?
From my understanding, the Israeli justice systems is like most in that it bases sentences not just on future risk, but with an element of retribution for the crime in question. So even if he would never offend again, he should still be punished for the crime of killing a child.
Yoram Skolnick, who got let out after 7.5 years for murder, associates with Kach, afaik, so I'd say he's certainly at risk of reoffending.
what will you do with the american pilot who bombed a wedding in afganistan killing 50?
I'd investigate to see if he was negligent. If he was, depending on the level of negligence, I'd either reprimand him, dismiss him, or imprison him.
The IDF has killed a great many Palestinian bystanders over the years, which is inevitable given the situation. I'm not suggesting most of them are guilty of anything, although I'd like to see at least some sort of investigation into every unintended death.
But Skolnick shot dead a bound man at point blank range, deliberately. That's not negligence, it's murder. Korman beat a child to death, and even if it's negligence (which I suspect wouldn't be the case if the child weren't Palestinian), the beating was deliberate. He didn't think the child was shooting at him, as is the case of pilot at the Afghan wedding.
Korman was annoyed someone had thrown stones at cars, he attacked a child in retribution, the child died. Ask yourself what would happen if your car was vandilised, you suspected a neighbour's child, you attacked the child fracturing his skull and breaking his neck. Think you'd get off with 6 months community service?
I know if I tried it here, I'd get at least life with a reccomendation of 20 years.
(which by the way, both their releases smelt badly of politics and stirred the anger of the left wing crowd)
That's the point. To a large part of Israeli society, letting out a murderer who's killed Palestinians is a political plus.
The Israeli legal system might be the best in the Middle East, but don't be fooloed into thinking it's fair or just in it's treatment of Palestinians.
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Iran a fair law system ?
what u read the pravda ?
or alquida times.
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Originally posted by Otto
Iran's Justice System is truly advanced.....
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2430139.stm
if you did read that carefully and not only headlines, you could fine this
"The issuing of such verdicts by the judiciary has damaged the credibility of the judicial system, and the image of the Shia clerical establishment,"
Anyway since you already proved to be blind, i will write it again for you.
we are comparing CRIMINAL law...
have a nice time in your country w/o judiciary mistakes.
orel
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Iran a fair law system ?
what u read the pravda ?
or alquida times.
source is our private terrorist organization.. you have links above
go trolling somewhere else, when you cannt post facts
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U made me mad by saying those us soldiers should be ashamed for fighting in vietnam
like they had a choice
they where in hell and when they came home....
there where people like u