Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Staga on May 06, 2004, 08:43:46 AM
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Hell if I know :)
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because you left the light on in the outhouse!
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{Staga'tized}
Kathleen D. McCarthy, Director of the Center for the Study of Philanthropy, responds:[/color]
With a few exceptions [such as Hungary, where private support supplies a slightly higher percentage of nonprofit revenues than in the US], Americans are by far the most generous in their support of educational and charitable endeavors. Several factors account for this: an ethos of limited government; the lack of a fully developed welfare state; strong religious incentives to give and volunteer; an unparalleled record of economic expansion over the past two centuries; and an enduring ethos of "civic stewardship"-- the belief that people who prosper within a community have a moral obligation to reinvest at least some of their wealth in community betterment. As a result, local citizens — both rich and poor — historically have worked in tandem with their state and local governments to provide social and educational services that the government would not have been able to provide on its own.
On the other hand, it’s important not to overemphasize the role of private giving in maintaining these services. All of the data we have so far suggest that nonprofit organizations — everything from charities to "private" colleges and museums — subsist on a mix of public and private support. This is as true in Italy, France, Germany and the United Kingdom as it is in the United States. Moreover, although the ratio of private support varies from one type of nonprofit organization to another, aside from cultural endeavors, most American nonprofits receive the bulk of their support either from government and/or fees for service, with philanthropic giving running third. In other words, government does provide a great deal of support for nonprofits — often far more than individual donors. This is why the government cutbacks over the past two decades have been so devastating. Private philanthropy has been unable to match the magnitude of the cuts, forcing many nonprofits to rely on increased fees and more aggressive marketing to maintain their operations — despite the magnitude of our national benevolence.
The Independent Sector responds:
As a nation, Americans are comparatively far more generous than all other nations--particularly across all socioeconomic levels. Independent Sector research indicates that in the United States giving has maintained a stable share of the nation's economy for three decades. With some slight fluctuations, charitable contributions have represented 2% of the Gross Domestic Product since 1966--the highest giving rate of any nation. (Two percent of the GDP is a large amount since giving would have to increase by more than $75 billion, or 50%, to reach 3% of the GDP). In comparison, in Canada and the United Kingdom, countries with similar infrastructures to the United States, charitable contributions were .72% of the GDP and .55% of the GDP respectively.
Why are Americans so generous? America has a strong tradition of giving as exemplified by the benevolence the Native Americans showed Christopher Columbus. Governor John Winthrop got the spirit of philanthropy off to a good start when he preached "a model of Christian charity" to Puritans bound for New England in 1630. John Harvard in 1638 was the first American to bequeath his library and half of his estate to a newly founded Harvard University in Cambridge, Massachusetts. In 1751, gifts from Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Bond and others established Pennsylvania Hospital, the first general hospital in the United States.
Until the nineteenth century charity primarily involved providing aid for basic support directly to poor individuals. But when the Industrial Revolution and the subsequent population migrations from rural to urban areas created new social problems, philanthropy took a new direction. The new field of social work was developed to address issues of systemic poverty, and the government began taking the responsibility for providing basic human needs.
The middle and late nineteenth century saw major bequests and endowments--which still influence us today:
The Smithsonian Institution was created by a gift from an admiring Englishman, James Smithson, in 1846.
The huge fortunes amassed by some American industrialists such as Andrew Carnegie, John D. Rockefeller, and Henry Ford were the basis for the large trust funds that make up the wealth of some of today's largest foundations.
Industrialist Alfred Nobel established the Nobel Prizes in 1901.
Giving has changed a great deal in twentieth century America. With the establishment of Social Security and other government programs designed to provide a "safety net" for the poor and elderly, Americans have expanded their giving beyond providing basic survival needs. Today, they also contribute to funds to fight specific diseases; protect the environment; support education, research and the arts; and advocate for particular public policies.
Although charitable organizations are asked to pickup the gaps that cutbacks in government programs have generated, this does not necessarily influence the amount Americans have always contributed. Factors such as expansion of the economy, tax incentives, higher salaries and more jobs are more indicative of higher giving percentages than a "need" to fill in the gap left by cuts in government social spending.
[/Staga'tized}
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mostly tho... it is because Americans are put off by the infrequent bathing habits and lack of dental care of the rest of the world.
well.... that and socialism but... I believe there is some evidence they are related items.
lazs
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that and the hairy armpitted ladies
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Originally posted by lazs2
mostly tho... it is because Americans are put off by the infrequent bathing habits and lack of dental care of the rest of the world.
well.... that and socialism but... I believe there is some evidence they are related items.
lazs
:lol Storch and Lazs..:rofl
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Juri Gagarin was a fool. He travelled around the world three times and returned to CCCP.
Awesome!!! :rofl
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DETH TO STAGAREEKA!
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Only about 30percent or less hate the rest of the world, and my guess is the shorter working week.
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My money's on the airplanes slamming into skyscrapers or the exploding embassies or the ships getting blown up in port, etc.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
My money's on the airplanes slamming into skyscrapers or the exploding embassies or the ships getting blown up in port, etc.
and people like staga :D
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As individuals....Americans are incredibly generous.
As a nation....Americans are increibly generous.
but, their foreign economic policy is ruled by their corporations and there...they are not so generous. And that is what people generally do not see, because it is not reported in the press. Look here (http://www.corpwatch.org/)
I hate to break it to you lot whilst you're so busy patting yourselves on the back, but you have the same bell curve of personalities that exist everywhere. Greedy people, good people, evil people, and charitable people.
You're not perfect. Nobody is. But right now, no matter how many ripsnorted statistics you can field, America's popularity amongst other nations in the world is really suffering. It doesn't matter if it's an accurate or inaccurate view, the point is that the view is there.
If you want the rest of the world to think you're wonderful...you've got to be much better at PR than you have been so far. This whole war has been a debacle of public relations. The coalition has let a relatively primitive country run rings around us on PR...and that is what we are supposed to be good at.
I think that part of it is a fundamentally differing point of view. In America, everyone loves a winner, but the rest of the world...like a humble winner.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Why are Americans so generous? America has a strong tradition of giving as exemplified by the benevolence the Native Americans showed Christopher Columbus.
lol...I had to stop here. This is just frigging hilarious...and absolutely ridiculous.
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i think its because we keep sending them our crappy singers
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Originally posted by storch
that and the hairy armpitted ladies
If only we could get rid of the indigenous. I say you should receive a grant to move to Finland. :D
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Oh Boy!
Actually I've been to Finland. All the people we met seemed very nice and friendly. They seemed to like Americans. Been to Helsinki twice and had a wonderful time!
If I had the chance, I'd go back, if I was sure Harri and Helene would be my tour guide again!!
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Originally posted by vorticon
i think its because we keep sending them our crappy singers
You dont mean Davide Hasselhoff do you LOL.
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Originally posted by ravells
America's popularity amongst other nations in the world is really suffering. It doesn't matter if it's an accurate or inaccurate view, the point is that the view is there.
Very Very true sir.
And something must be done about that.
Just as soon as we kill every single terrorist on the planet then we concern ourselves with how much the rest of the world loves us.
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Great plan! Kill everyone you conceive of as a terrorist and there will only be Mr Black left.
Ravs
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Ripsnort,
Do you have some sort of cut n paste macro or something?
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by ravells
Great plan! Kill everyone you conceive of as a terrorist and there will only be Mr Black left.
Ravs
:rofl
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Originally posted by ravells
Great plan! Kill everyone you conceive of as a terrorist and there will only be Mr Black left.
Ravs
Or we could just sit around and wiat for another 9-11
Did not say anything about whom i might conceive as a terrorist.
i think our intelli community has a pretty good idea who the bad guys are.
I am of the belief that a good offense is a great defense.
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Originally posted by B17Skull12
:rofl
Laugh if it funny boy if they bring back the draft you im sure will be one of the first to go LOL.
Or you could just inlist and do your duty striaght up.
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Originally posted by txmx
Or we could just sit around and wiat for another 9-11
Do you want to be free or do you want to be secure?
You can't have both.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Do you want to be free or do you want to be secure?
You can't have both.
If given that choice I would take security any day.
We take for granted so much of our freedoms any way Im sure most would not miss it.
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They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. - Benjamin Franklin
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If he's trying to light his shoe on fire poke his eye out!
txmx.
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Originally posted by Swager
Oh Boy!
Actually I've been to Finland. All the people we met seemed very nice and friendly. They seemed to like Americans. Been to Helsinki twice and had a wonderful time!
If I had the chance, I'd go back, if I was sure Harri and Helene would be my tour guide again!!
You can count on that, Bro ! Miss You and Greg, hope to see you again !
-Gotta use this quote myself, so well it fits here :)
Actually I've been to USA. All the people we met seemed very nice and friendly. They seemed to like Finns . Been to California twice and had a wonderful time!
If I had the chance, I'd go back, if I was sure James and Gloria would be my tour guide again!!
And the same goes with You too Swag !!
:D
Cheers !
Harppa
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Originally posted by txmx
If given that choice I would take security any day.
We take for granted so much of our freedoms any way Im sure most would not miss it.
Spoken like someone that is truely afraid of freedom.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Spoken like someone that is truely afraid of freedom.
Funny you should say that being as I served 4 years in the military in the service of my countries freedoms.
Where and when did you serve again?
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Originally posted by txmx
Funny you should say that being as I served 4 years in the military in the service of my countries freedoms.
Where and when did you serve again?
I did not serve, and have no desire to. That is not being discussed. What is, is your idea that taking away our freedoms to make us feel more secure is a good thing. It is not, it is the policy of a national socialist.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
I did not serve, and have no desire to. That is not being discussed. What is, is your idea that taking away our freedoms to make us feel more secure is a good thing. It is not, it is the policy of a national socialist.
Oh I would bet If you could go back in time and ask the people who died on 9-11 if they could have traded maybe just a little personal freedoms to save there lives.
I think the answer would be YES.
And i bet you could even today If there relitives mind having to stand in line a little longer at the airport to assure that God willing nothing ever happends like 9-11 again.
Hey If ya aint guilty ya should not mind being asked a few questions and maby being searched.
If It makes our country a little safer Im all for It.
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Originally posted by txmx
Oh I would bet If you could go back in time and ask the people who died on 9-11 if they could have traded maybe just a little personal freedoms to save there lives.
I think the answer would be YES.
And i bet you could even today If there relitives mind having to stand in line a little longer at the airport to assure that God willing nothing ever happends like 9-11 again.
Hey If ya aint guilty ya should not mind being asked a few questions and maby being searched.
If It makes our country a little safer Im all for It.
Spoken like a true national socialist.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Spoken like a true national socialist.
Again your running off at the mouth at something you probably are not old enough to understand.
In what should be a discussion on the issues you have brought it down to a level of trading insults.
By calling a vet a socialist is not only insulting to me is silly and childish as well.
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Originally posted by txmx
Again your running off at the mouth at something you probably are not old enough to understand.
In what should be a discussion on the issues you have brought it down to a level of trading insults.
By calling a vet a socialist is not only insulting to me is silly and childish as well.
You really have no idea what a national socialist is do you? Sir, i believe you are the one that has brought this debate down the drain. Instead of arguing your point you started to beat your chest about prior military experiance, and now your assuming that your age brings wisdom.
Back to the arguement. Losing our freedom's is what the terrorist wanted to accomplish from 9/11. Our founding father's believed in freedom over security, knowing that you cannot have both.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Spoken like someone that is truely afraid of freedom.
In your quote above you stated that I was truely afraid of freedom.
To wich I replied I served in the military protecting my countries freedoms.
Then I ask you if you served.
Because If you have not then I feel that you are in no position to question me on my loyaties to my country.
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Oh and for the record I am a republican.
Although I may not vote this time around as I am not to thrilled with either of the two guys running.
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Originally posted by txmx
In your quote above you stated that I was truely afraid of freedom.
To wich I replied I served in the military protecting my countries freedoms.
Then I ask you if you served.
Because If you have not then I feel that you are in no position to question me on my loyaties to my country.
You support the idea of given up freedoms in order to feel more secure. You are therefore afraid of what freedom brings.
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Stabbythebigsalamander is right in this case mrwhoever.
The willingness to give up personal freedoms for whatever reason is never a good thing.
My eloquence(LOL!) is lost by the hour and the beer. I can't say what I want to, but I know that you are wrong:D
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
You support the idea of given up freedoms in order to feel more secure. You are therefore afraid of what freedom brings.
Freedom brings responsabilities!
And with those come choices to sometimes do the right thing for the long run.
Just like we dont let 12 year olds drive cars.
Although they some might be able to do just fine.
Now Is there freedom as an American being stepped on by having to waite till there 16?
I know a silly example but I hope you get my point.
And my point is that sometimes we all must take a hit for the greater good.
Now If that makes me guilty of caring for my fellow citizen then so be it.
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Originally posted by txmx
Freedom brings responsabilities!
And with those come choices to sometimes do the right thing for the long run.
Just like we dont let 12 year olds drive cars.
Although they some might be able to do just fine.
Now Is there freedom as an American being stepped on by having to waite till there 16?
I know a silly example but I hope you get my point.
And my point is that sometimes we all must take a hit for the greater good.
Now If that makes me guilty of caring for my fellow citizen then so be it.
Driving a car is not a constitutional right. Invasion of privacy is, and that is a completely different matter. That is something you fought to defend in the armed services.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
Stabbythebigsalamander is right in this case mrwhoever.
The willingness to give up personal freedoms for whatever reason is never a good thing.
My eloquence(LOL!) is lost by the hour and the beer. I can't say what I want to, but I know that you are wrong:D
Yes Yes now noble but my point Is that human life should supercede any sense of freedoms.
Can you not say that If by giving up just a little persoanl freedom you could have prevented 9-11 you would gladly do it right.
thats all im saying.
Im not however saying that we should be subject to being spied apon or wire tapps and the such with out probible cause.
There must be checks and balances to keep those whom WE elect in check.
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Originally posted by txmx
In your quote above you stated that I was truely afraid of freedom.
To wich I replied I served in the military protecting my countries freedoms.
Then I ask you if you served.
Because If you have not then I feel that you are in no position to question me on my loyaties to my country.
That "Starship Trooper" book was way kool. :D
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Arlo are the bars closed now?
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Yeah they are. Whatcha doin up past yer bedtime? :D
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Ah ya know old people like me cant sleep.
And I have Gas so the old lady locked me out of the bed room again.
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Originally posted by txmx
Yes Yes now noble but my point Is that human life should supercede any sense of freedoms.
The freedoms that we enjoy supercede any human life. That is what our country was based on. That is what the fathers of our country faught(sp) for. I will never give that right up, and I will die for it.
As an ex-veteran yourself, I have a hard time understanding why you feel this way.
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Originally posted by Lazerus
The freedoms that we enjoy supercede any human life. That is what our country was based on. That is what the fathers of our country faught(sp) for. I will never give that right up, and I will die for it.
As an ex-veteran yourself, I have a hard time understanding why you feel this way.
Without human life what good is freedom?
I also worked 8 years as an EMT so I put a very high value on human life.
And have a very strong hatred of those who would want to take it away!
I am not condoning a police state please dont miss understand me.
I am just saying more securty at airports and at our borders.
We now have to be very carefull who we let in our country.
We cant afford to drop our guard ever again.
The enemy wants to kill use and they will not stop!
Man I wish the USA was like it was back in the 1950s but it aint that world anymore.
And that in of it self Is very sad.
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Originally posted by txmx
By calling a vet a socialist is not only insulting to me is silly and childish as well.
he wasn't calling you a socialist.
he was calling you a nazi.
did you enlist direct from finishing 4th grade?
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Originally posted by Shane
he wasn't calling you a socialist.
he was calling you a nazi.
You probably should think before you flap your yap there skippy!
As I'm Jewish and take great offense to that remark.
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Jews have a particular thing about making it to the fifth grade?
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Originally posted by Arlo
Jews have a particular thing about making it to the fifth grade?
LOL yeah being as we own all the banks we need to know how to count.
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Excellent bate Staga :D
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Originally posted by txmx
LOL yeah being as we own all the banks we need to know how to count.
Hehe ... yeah .. I remember when you made a big deal about being Jewish in your "MrBlack" incarnation. Just figured it was all part of the "I think I'll reinvent myself in some way" thang. Or maybe it's "I better go a bit left or right of center or they'll find me" paranoia thang. The particular attempts you make at coming off Jewish generally fall short of the mark. But there are indeed websites that will help you out. Not that THAT matters either.
I bet you may be the one single Jew on the planet that doesn't know what a "national socialist" is. :D
But hey ... gay ga zinta hate. ShruG :aok
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Originally posted by txmx
LOL yeah being as we own all the banks we need to know how to count.
Jewish and a sig that says "jesus saves" with a baptist URL?
I call BS.
And I might be as old as you :) Drafted 69....
:lol
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Older, Lew .... older. Glad I could make you feel better this morning. ;)
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Originally posted by txmx
You probably should think before you flap your yap there skippy!
As I'm Jewish and take great offense to that remark.
did *I* call you a nazi? no. i merely enlightened you.
i think nazi is too harsh and confers too much legitimacy, anyway.
i'd have used "tool."
just keep flapping your yap; thinking isn't your thing, obviously.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Excellent bate Staga :D
it was just a cheap joke and look what it become :D
Anyways I find it quite funny that txmx says he's a jew but doesn't recognize word "national socialist" from a "socialist"... oh well
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Originally posted by Silat
Jewish and a sig that says "jesus saves" with a baptist URL?
I call BS.
And I might be as old as you :) Drafted 69....
:lol
He was in the army, was an EMT and is again claiming to be Jewish.
But he's not MrBlack...oh no.
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MrWhomever,
1. I must agree with sandy and stabby. Sandy, I was going to quote Benjamin Franklin myself.
2. You claim to be a jew yet your sig line states that Jesus saves and the website for the southern baptists.
You are a bad testimony and should consider removing both. If you are a jew why not change it thusly. "Jesus saves but Moses invests".
Peace
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Originally posted by Shane
did *I* call you a nazi? no. i merely enlightened you.
i think nazi is too harsh and confers too much legitimacy, anyway.
i'd have used "tool."
just keep flapping your yap; thinking isn't your thing, obviously.
I used national socialist to point out his ignorance.
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Ripsnort,
Find yourself a wall mounted map of the world - a large one.
Now stand in front of said wall map, as you normally would. Now step backwards 2ft so that your nose is now 25 inches away from that part of the map depicting the USA. Look around... those other coloured areas you can see are countries. Yes - other countries. And there are hundreds of them, with dozens of different languages and dialects, cultures etc. Can you guess the US proportion of the world's surface area (including Alaska)?
It's less than 2%.
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beet1e, we still own said map. get used to it.
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hang on for a few beetle.... waiting for the popcorn
ok....done....go ahead :aok
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trade freedom for security??? txmx is a woman? sheesh... there is no security even in prison. even in your bed with armed guards around you.... you can trade every bit of your freedom away and never have security.
You should trade as little freedom as possible for security... semi secure borders demand some loss of freedom at times as do wars...
Nothing could have stopped 9/11 or something like it. you can't prevent people from hurting each other. You can't put a policeman on every person and another policeman on the policeman.. and so on. You can't make every one bundle up in riot gear and helmets and travel in indestructable bubbles and have any quality of life.
Without freedom there is no quality of life.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Without freedom there is no quality of life.
lazs
As it relates to guns I assume.
You aren't "free" lazs...despite possession of all your guns. You aren't free to drive too fast, you aren't free to ride a motorcycle without a helmet, you aren't free to enjoy about 20% of your income, etc etc etc etc etc.
Pound that chest as hard as you want but you are just as restricted in most things in everyday life as any European (more so in some cases).
Guns give you a false sense of freedom dude.
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"Without freedom there is no quality of life."
Amen
!
-- Westy
(p.s. looks like the nTH incarnation of the pathalogical liar MrBlack has been clearly outed)
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curval... u are correct in everything except assuming that I agree with the restrictions placed on me now by my country.
I will not be voting for democrats.
I want more freedom not less.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I will not be voting for democrats.
Fair enough lazs.
Glad to see the above in your quote...Kerry has a woody for my little island and would love nothing more than to shut us down and deprive ME of certain freedoms.
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curval.. I am consistent.. Not only do I not want my freedoms taken away but I won't vote anyone elses away either. democrats eventually come after everyone.. It is a function and result of big government.
and not ending womens suffrage.
lazs
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Curval, the helmet laws are a state by state issue.
In Florida you may ride without a helmet if you wish, I do not.
Yes we pay taxes but I am thankful that I'm not getting all the government i'm paying for (paraphrasing Will Rogers).
Any society requires certain restrictions on individuals.
I think you might be confusing libertinism with liberty.
I believe America is about as free a society as there is today.
But I have to agree with some of my liberal friends that since 9-11-01 we have been restricted to a great extent and it does trouble me some. I personally have not been but the concept is troubling.
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Originally posted by lazs2
democrats eventually come after everyone..
SPOILER: He's talking about guns again.
Just play along and pretend that you've never heard of the Patriot Act.
:aok
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No sandie... I am talking about guns and hot rods and helmet laws and seat belt laws and "hate crimes" and PC and public schools and well... any of a number of things.
The patriot act is pretty bad. It won't last no matter who is in power.
When liberals talk about "freedom" they mean being able to smoke pot or have gay marriage or cuss on the radio or TV.
Truth is... more of my time is spent with Hot Rods than guns anyway... I would not even care about talking about guns with yu guys if you were not trying to restrict me. If there were not so many people that believed and regurjitated the anti gun propaganda I wouldn't feel I had to say anything about em except.... To people who enjoyed em too.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
No sandie... I am talking about guns and hot rods and helmet laws and seat belt laws and "hate crimes" and PC and public schools and well... any of a number of things.
You're not going to get an argument from me on this. :)
The patriot act is pretty bad. It won't last no matter who is in power.
I hope you're right. I fear that you are not.
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Originally posted by Gixer
Ripsnort,
Do you have some sort of cut n paste macro or something?
...-Gixer
Yeah, I do...jealous? ;)
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I am right sandie... the patriot act is overreacting and a little of the old self perpetuating burocracy thing at work... more people more power more funding...
Overreacting to it and voting in democrats is a very bad way to cure..... overreacting.
lazs
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Originally posted by storch
I believe America is about as free a society as there is today.
In what ways are you "free'er" than say Monaco, Lichtenstein, or any other European country inhabitants?
I'm not just being argumentative here....frankly there is always a chest pounding "We are Free" argument to suggest why the US is "better" than European countries.
The only "more free" issue that I can see relates to gun ownership.
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i fail to see how being told what you can do is any more acceptable than being told what you cannot.
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Originally posted by storch
beet1e, we still own said map. get used to it.
...but the rest of the world owns the wall it hangs from.
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Is said map that we own a cloth map or is it laminated?
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I think this is the map that Storch is talking about :D
Ravs
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/258_1083947820_bushmap.jpg)
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OMG ROFL :D :rofl :D
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I'm still waiting for a response to my question above.....anyone?
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I think its easier to get hold of government documents in the US, Curval - Freedom of Information there is less curtailed than it is here.
Also, I think that their press are not as restricted when it comes to privacy of individuals. I.e. their balance of 'freedom of expression' against 'right to privacy' is weighted more to the 'freedom of expression' side than it is in Europe.
That's all I can think of, but I'm sure there must be more. And cases where the 'freedoms' in Europe exceed those of the US as well.
Ravs
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I totally agree with the map that Bush suppossedlly drew.
curval... free trade and economic freedom translate into a lot of freedom here. Obviously a high standard of living works out to mean "freedom" in a sense. Most things cost less here. A person is probly free'er to pursue a bussiness here. We have less taxation than most. We have a constitution that limits governments powers.
I will admit that the trend in the U.S. is away from the 1st and 2nd amendments these days but that is a bad thing not a good one.
lazs
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True GS... i read in VG before xmas that norway has the highest ammount of legal guns in private ownership per person in the world.
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Originally posted by ravells
I think its easier to get hold of government documents in the US, Curval - Freedom of Information there is less curtailed than it is here.
Also, I think that their press are not as restricted when it comes to privacy of individuals. I.e. their balance of 'freedom of expression' against 'right to privacy' is weighted more to the 'freedom of expression' side than it is in Europe.
That's all I can think of, but I'm sure there must be more. And cases where the 'freedoms' in Europe exceed those of the US as well.
Ravs
Yes Ravs, but clearly those items are real streches when it comes to determining who is more "free".
On the German autobaun you can, and should, drive far faster than would could ever drive in ANY state in the US. Given how much emphasis and value Americans put on their automobiles then Germany far surpasses the freedom afforded to Americans in this regard.
But..in every single US/European debate the subject of freedom always comes up. Silliness like "you are subjects, we are citizens" is written in an effort to prop up American freedomaniacs egos...yet when you break it down to basics we are all as free as each other.
It is really very silly indeed.
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... free trade and economic freedom translate into a lot of freedom here. Obviously a high standard of living works out to mean "freedom" in a sense. Most things cost less here. A person is probly free'er to pursue a bussiness here. We have less taxation than most. We have a constitution that limits governments powers.
By all rights then, with the exception of stuff costing less (we have to import all consumable goods) Bermuda is even freer than the US....and we are a colony of Britain.
(Yes, we have our own Constitution here).
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Originally posted by Curval
Yes Ravs, but clearly those items are real streches when it comes to determining who is more "free".
On the German autobaun you can, and should, drive far faster than would could ever drive in ANY state in the US. Given how much emphasis and value Americans put on their automobiles then Germany far surpasses the freedom afforded to Americans in this regard.
But..in every single US/European debate the subject of freedom always comes up. Silliness like "you are subjects, we are citizens" is written in an effort to prop up American freedomaniacs egos...yet when you break it down to basics we are all as free as each other.
It is really very silly indeed.
Do Not forget the crazy liquor laws in America. NEVAR FORGET!
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curval... no... if you have to import everything and if it all costs more then you don't have economic freedom for the average person... you have restrictions on most things... you can't drive most motorcycles or cars (even if there were someplace to drive) you can't own firearms and.... you are a tiny little island that is not really representative. You are basicly an oasis from some of the more restrictive U.K and U.S. tax laws. Sorta like criminals used to be able to make it to a church and cry safe.
While pleasant for most... I would not want to live on an island. If you take the rest of the U.K tho... you will find high taxes and expesive goods and many banned items... you have no choices for your medical and pay to watch your own televisions with programing by the government.
lazs
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Originally posted by Curval
On the German autobaun you can, and should, drive far faster than would could ever drive in ANY state in the US. Given how much emphasis and value Americans put on their automobiles then Germany far surpasses the freedom afforded to Americans in this regard.
But..in every single US/European debate the subject of freedom always comes up. Silliness like "you are subjects, we are citizens" is written in an effort to prop up American freedomaniacs egos...yet when you break it down to basics we are all as free as each other.
It is really very silly indeed.
Yes indeed, the German autobahnen. I'll never forget the day I visited -erni- - a WB squaddie I went to stay with near Munich. I had to drive there from Frankfurt where I was visiting a few other people. The drive between those two cities is a three-laner - no speed limit. And Ernst's last message to me before I made that drive was "The mirror will be your best friend. Very high speed sometimes!" No kidding. Most traffic seemed to be doing 100mph+, and I was letting rip at 120-130. Maxed out at 140 just once and STILL they were passing me! One Merc turbo coupé disappeared into the distance at 150+, possibly nudging 160. But I felt completely safe, because the krauts know how to drive and use the correct lane instead of sitting in the middle lane at 60-70 the way they do here. :rolleyes: Hehe, I thought of the US hillbilly cop that once pulled me over on I-80 near Quad Cities in Illinois for doing a "suicidal" 64mph when the limit was 55 everywhere in the US. :lol For those that don't know it, I-80 is one of the main E-W highways between Boston and San Francisco.
I'm told that Montana has no speed limit. The limit is "as fast as is prudent", which is of course wide open to interpretation - much like Montana itself - lol.
Rav, Curv - I'm looking forward to meeting you guys later this month. ;):D
Lazs - "you have no choices for your medical and pay to watch your own televisions with programing by the government. "
My (American) ex mother in law needed carpal tunnel surgery. But it would have cost $20,000 and she couldn't afford it. So she just had to suffer. As for TV, while we're watching quality programs you'll be watching snippets of sitcoms interspersed between a wall of commercials. I'll take the British version, thanks.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yes indeed, the German autobahnen. I'll never forget the day I visited -erni- - a WB squaddie I went to stay with near Munich. I had to drive there from Frankfurt where I was visiting a few other people. The drive between those two cities is a three-laner - no speed limit. And Ernst's last message to me before I made that drive was "The mirror will be your best friend. Very high speed sometimes!" No kidding. Most traffic seemed to be doing 100mph+, and I was letting rip at 120-130. Maxed out at 140 just once and STILL they were passing me! One Merc turbo coupé disappeared into the distance at 150+, possibly nudging 160. But I felt completely safe, because the krauts know how to drive and use the correct lane instead of sitting in the middle lane at 60-70 the way they do here. :rolleyes: Hehe, I thought of the US hillbilly cop that once pulled me over on I-80 near Quad Cities in Illinois for doing a "suicidal" 64mph when the limit was 55 everywhere in the US. :lol For those that don't know it, I-80 is one of the main E-W highways between Boston and San Francisco.
I'm told that Montana has no speed limit. The limit is "as fast as is prudent", which is of course wide open to interpretation - much like Montana itself - lol.
Rav, Curv - I'm looking forward to meeting you guys later this month. ;):D
Lazs - "you have no choices for your medical and pay to watch your own televisions with programing by the government. "
My (American) ex mother in law needed carpal tunnel surgery. But it would have cost $20,000 and she couldn't afford it. So she just had to suffer. As for TV, while we're watching quality programs you'll be watching snippets of sitcoms interspersed between a wall of commercials. I'll take the British version, thanks.
Do not forget satilite TV which you can get anywhere.
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beetle... I watched your TV.. no thanks.
I don't really watch much TV but would rather pay a cable co to give me hundreds of stations than to pay a "tax" on every TV I owned. To me... everything in England was... very expensive and very little choice. Everything also seemed to be falling apart.
oh, and sonds like she picked a lousy provider.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... no... if you have to import everything and if it all costs more then you don't have economic freedom for the average person... you have restrictions on most things... you can't drive most motorcycles or cars (even if there were someplace to drive) you can't own firearms and.... you are a tiny little island that is not really representative. You are basicly an oasis from some of the more restrictive U.K and U.S. tax laws. Sorta like criminals used to be able to make it to a church and cry safe.
lazs
Ahh, but laz...I make more money than most which makes up for the cost of living, and I pay no income taxes.
I am restricted as to what car or motorcycle I can drive but that is done for practical reasons. You wouldn't get out of second gear in your Healy here, so it is pointless.
I can't own firearms, but gun crime is almost non existant, so that is no big deal. I can get a gun and shoot at a range, however, if I feel the urge.
I travel freely around the world as a result of having economic freedom supplied from the profession I work at without paying the tax man a huge portion of it.
If wealth is an indication of freedom, which you seem to imply, then perhaps Bahrain, or any of the Arab Emirites, is the free'est place on earth....NOT.
Regardless....can you not see that being more free is a stupid illogical argument when comparing the US to Europe and stating that it is better?
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Ravells - LOL the Map! :lol
Maybe we can get Fester to model it for the main arena. :aok
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Originally posted by lazs2
beetle... I watched your TV.. no thanks.
I don't really watch much TV but would rather pay a cable co to give me hundreds of stations than to pay a "tax" on every TV I owned. To me... everything in England was... very expensive and very little choice. Everything also seemed to be falling apart.
oh, and sonds like she picked a lousy provider.
lazs
No offence laz, but you do realize it was only expensive to you. The english have higher wages.
Americans do have more freedom's, but not by much. Some of things we cannot do are outright silly as well.
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curval... I dio not say you., I said the average person.. so far as standard of living goes. we pretty much agree tho that I woujldn't enjoy most of the things I enjoy if I lived there... it is too restrictive to live there... like I said.. I dont like islands. You may make more than I do but I know a lot of Americans that take home more than you make and... they can use it to buy cheap goods and a huge variety of em... they can also go water skiing one weekend and snow skiiing the next without a passport. They can see mountains and forests and oceans and lakes and deserts... all with a few tanks of cheap gasoline.
stabby... that doesn't explain the lack of variety and... if they are making so much then they sure live badly on it... I wouldn't live in 80% of the places I seen. I wouldn't drive on those roads or I would at least be complaining mightily. Everything seemed to be pretty much falling apart there.
lazs
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LOL, regarding autobhan and speed limits.....
We have a 130 km/h speed limit, and very tough fines and the frigging "perked" driving licence.
Just try to travel in my area on an highway at 130 km/h.
You will be passed by the scooters... WROOOM :)
The "de facto" cruise speed is around 160 km/h, but there are many, and I mean many, me included, that cruise around 180-200Km/h, with eyes open for "Flaks" ;)
In appearance there are many strict laws and limits in our life, but seem that in my region many of those laws are... optionals.
But maybe this is not freedom, is anarchy. :D
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Originally posted by lazs2
curval... I dio not say you., I said the average person.. so far as standard of living goes. we pretty much agree tho that I woujldn't enjoy most of the things I enjoy if I lived there... it is too restrictive to live there... like I said.. I dont like islands. You may make more than I do but I know a lot of Americans that take home more than you make and... they can use it to buy cheap goods and a huge variety of em... they can also go water skiing one weekend and snow skiiing the next without a passport. They can see mountains and forests and oceans and lakes and deserts... all with a few tanks of cheap gasoline.
Right, so we agree that material wealth has nothing to do with freedom. There are lots of richer people than me in Europe, and wealth gives them the freedom to buy stuff, price is no object at all.
As far as the water skiing and snow skiing thing goes, you can do the exact same in many places in Europe...which is really what we are talking about here.
So, can I take it that you agree that the freedom arguement is no longer on the table?
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"someone" should travel more and speculate less, and manybe they would see that their home country is not heaven on earth. :D
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/335_1083955942_image01.jpg)
MPH and right here in the U.S. I could have gone much faster but it was hard to drive this fast and operate the camera at the same time.
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Yea Steve, but had you driven past a cop he would have given you a nice big ticket for speeding...and possibly one for operating a vehicle in a dangerous manner (you know....driving at that speed while snapping pictures of your speedo).
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Originally posted by Silat
Jewish and a sig that says "jesus saves" with a baptist URL?
I call BS.
And I might be as old as you :) Drafted 69....
:lol
Born Jewish raised babtist as I am adopted.
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Born Jewish raised babtist as I am adopted.
The plot thickens.
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Yea Steve, but had you driven past a cop he would have given you a nice big ticket for speeding...and possibly one for operating a vehicle in a dangerous manner (you know....driving at that speed while snapping pictures of your speedo).
I think it's felony speed and maybe reckless driving.
Then again.. maybe the laws are enforced optionally. :)
You should have been there Curval, a beautiful sunny day during the week and almost no traffic..serendipity baby!
Edit: not felony speed sorry. criminal speed.
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Originally posted by Steve
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/335_1083955942_image01.jpg)
MPH and right here in the U.S. I could have gone much faster but it was hard to drive this fast and operate the camera at the same time.
Whatever happened to the rule of law :(
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Looks like an older vette dash.
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Looks like an older vette dash.
Yeap '86
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Do you guys know the trick to getting your tub of popcorn evenly buttered? Put a straw in it, then raise the straw as you're pumping the butter. Works like a charm!
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Originally posted by VOR
The plot thickens.
Yes what a great mystery.
Lets see how the paranoid little tards can run with this one .
OOHH Adoption wow that never happends he must be lying.
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Do you know how many goobers I can catch with a single troll. LOL
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Originally posted by Curval
Yes Ravs, but clearly those items are real streches when it comes to determining who is more "free".
On the German autobaun you can, and should, drive far faster than would could ever drive in ANY state in the US. Given how much emphasis and value Americans put on their automobiles then Germany far surpasses the freedom afforded to Americans in this regard.
But..in every single US/European debate the subject of freedom always comes up. Silliness like "you are subjects, we are citizens" is written in an effort to prop up American freedomaniacs egos...yet when you break it down to basics we are all as free as each other.
It is really very silly indeed.
It is silly, but you asked a question and I was trying to answer it :)
Much of all of this depends on your definition of 'freedom'. If by 'freedom' one means the ability to do what one wants without government interference, then the freeest people are probably nomadic tribes living in the desert in North Africa or something similar.
If, like Lasz, your definition of freedom is 'having cheap goods to buy with minimal government interference', then Lasz needs to look a little more closely at how much other people's freedoms are being curtailed so he can have his. I refer, of course, to my hobby horse - the out of control corporate mentality where profits matter more than people.
For me, well, freedom is more of a state of mind than anything. In a culture which is obsessed by consumerism (and I count myself in that culture) we find ourselves unhappy if we don't posses more and more. People who are truly free can live with a bare minimum of 'stuff' and still find happiness.
Ravs
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Txmx, you should write an autobiography. You've lived a most interesting life.
I wouldn't worry about the "paranoid little tards" if I were you. They'll believe anything.
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Thanks Beetle...looking forward to meeting you and Curval too.
and after seeing this: Ahh, but laz...I make more money than most which makes up for the cost of living, and I pay no income taxes.
I know who's going to be buying the drinks!
Ravs
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Originally posted by VOR
Txmx, you should write an autobiography. You've lived a most interesting life.
I wouldn't worry about the "paranoid little tards" if I were you. They'll believe anything.
lol! Make that like....10 autobiographies.
:aok
Ravs
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Originally posted by VOR
Txmx, you should write an autobiography. You've lived a most interesting life.
I wouldn't worry about the "paranoid little tards" if I were you. They'll believe anything.
No I will call it my little book on how to get a rise out of the simple minded.
Heck look at all the customers I would have right here.:aok
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Hell, txmx, I might even give you an advance to write them!
It'll be the best work of fiction since 'The secret life of Walter Mitty'
Ravs
:aok
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"lol! Make that like....10 autobiographies."
10?? lol. By the time he's finished here I think he's going to end up making Sybil and her mere 16 personalities look pretty damn normal.
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There's a funny joke here, but I wonder if the subject is in on it or not.
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Lol Vor.
I imagine someone we know and love is doing a furious search on 'Walter Mitty' and 'the Sybil'.
Ravs
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Originally posted by ravells
Hell, txmx, I might even give you an advance to write them!
It'll be the best work of fiction since 'The secret life of Walter Mitty'
Ravs
:aok
Rav's I like you ! You'r one funny guy.
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Originally posted by Westy
"lol! Make that like....10 autobiographies."
10?? lol. By the time he's finished here I think he's going to end up making Sybil and her mere 16 personalities look pretty damn normal.
LOL i have heard more intelligent things come from my arse after eating chilie.
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What you guy's dont get LOL Is every time you play into this multiple personalities gag You are playing into exactly what I want you to LOL.
Its Like I have you trianed now and dont even have to work at it anymore your so conditioned it just takes care of itself LOL.
So at some point you will smarten up and stop feeding my warped sense of humor
and post half way intelligent topics and reply to the subjects allready posted.
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"chili"
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This one is over. txmx,.stop the trolling. It is a discussion board, not your personal playground.