Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: BigGun on May 06, 2004, 10:54:03 AM
-
Was watching on the news a group of protestors in Iraq, protesting the US being there. It just struck me as odd, if US wasn't there they would never be able to protest anything without a bullet in the head. Ironic.
-
In fact they were protesting against US invasion without getting any "bullets in their heads".
I see irony in a different thing. US declared that they were "liberating" Iraqi people from "evil dictator" who opressed and tortured them. Now they torture Iraqis themselves...
-
I wondered a similar thing about the whole "torture" of the prisoners thing.
If any of those captive insurgents had been "guests" of Sadaam in an Iraqi prison where torture was a daily thing they must have been thinking "Is this all they are going to do to us? What a bunch of pansies."
-
Boroda,
You amaze me. Just wondering, would you rather be in the hands of the Russian police, in a Russian jail, or in the hands of the American Military, in a military jail?
We see on our television from time to time films of Russian police in action. Yeah, it's all pretty there. Hell, I think the treatment at the hands of Iraqi Insurgents would be nicer than the Russians.
Try not to ignore history and the extremely high count of Russian atrocities.
And of course, Stalin was a sweetheart of a guy.
dago
-
Originally posted by Boroda
In fact they were protesting against US invasion without getting any "bullets in their heads".
I see irony in a different thing. US declared that they were "liberating" Iraqi people from "evil dictator" who opressed and tortured them. Now they torture Iraqis themselves...
If that's what you call torture, I guess I was worried about the Red Menace all those years for nothing!
From the pictures and details I've gotten, that's what we call "Fraternity Hazing".
Don't believe the hype!
-
Originally posted by Boroda
I see irony in a different thing. US declared that they were "liberating" Iraqi people from "evil dictator" who opressed and tortured them. Now they torture Iraqis themselves...
Could be worse I guess - like charred bodies hanging from a bridge.
-
Originally posted by Dago
Boroda,
You amaze me. Just wondering, would you rather be in the hands of the Russian police, in a Russian jail, or in the hands of the American Military, in a military jail?
Definetly I'll prefer Russian Militia to a concentration camps built by occupants.
Our militia is corrupt, it is ineffective, I don't like that bastards in grey uniforms, but they don't torture people and don't make pictures of tortures for fun, like nazis did.
Originally posted by Dago
We see on our television from time to time films of Russian police in action. Yeah, it's all pretty there. Hell, I think the treatment at the hands of Iraqi Insurgents would be nicer than the Russians.
Yes, on your television you were told that Russians are all criminals and eat little babies alive. I love your propaganda.
I saw some of the films about our Militia. I loved the comments. They make you believe that special forces capturing armed criminals is what we have here every time someone gets arrested.
Originally posted by Dago
Try not to ignore history and the extremely high count of Russian atrocities.
And of course, Stalin was a sweetheart of a guy.
You know, I was not surprised when I heard the news about tortures in Iraq. Song Mi, you know...
In Stalin's times we had two times less people in prisons then in 1999... Please stop speaking about things that you don't know.
I just wonder - does anyone still believe in American "good intentions" in Iraq?
-
Originally posted by Monk
Could be worse I guess - like charred bodies hanging from a bridge.
You mean you need to use German experience from Belorussia?!
This is crazy... :(
-
Boroda will you ever get over Communisms failure and Russia losing the cold war?
-
Ah, so the Gulag was just a Russian Vacation resort! Right on Boroda, glad you straightened that out! ;)
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/gula.html
-
Originally posted by Vulcan
Boroda will you ever get over Communisms failure and Russia losing the cold war?
That would be a big NEGATIVE.
-
Originally posted by Boroda
You mean you need to use German experience from Belorussia?!
This is crazy... :(
eerrr....ya, WTF?
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Yes, on your television you were told that Russians are all criminals and eat little babies alive. I love your propaganda.
Actually, I never heard or saw a TV show saying all Russians were criminals, or that you ate babies, but maybe you were hiding something. Every trip I have made to the fromer SU, I found most people to be very nice, hospitable, and good all around people. With the exception of our "military escort" who were corrupt and sadistic bastards, the people there were great. The only "bad" thing I ever heard about the USSR was the obvious, your government was corrupt, did not believe in human rights, and generally oppressed the masses so that a few could live in luxury.
Originally posted by Boroda
I saw some of the films about our Militia. I loved the comments. They make you believe that special forces capturing armed criminals is what we have here every time someone gets arrested.
The only "anti-Russian" film I ever saw was Red Dawn, and that was so far fetched I laughed. Personally the only police I saw in my visits drove around in Black Zil's and looked like police. Maybe they had there RPG's and RPK's hidden. LOL
Originally posted by Boroda
You know, I was not surprised when I heard the news about tortures in Iraq. Song Mi, you know...
So, 25 people act like animals, and now the whole of the American Army is sadistic torturers... come on Boroda, your anti-US goggles are blinding you. It is wrong of those few, but they will be punished, you can be very sure of that. They (the soldiers who did this) gave the US Army a black eye, but you can be sure they will pay severely, especially with the president's attention fixed on them. As for torture and carnage wrecked on a population, need we remind you of the USSr's policies in Afganistan??? I seem to remeber bombs in toys distributed amongst the Afgani population by your Army that maimed and killed thousands of CHILDREN. Not to mention your wonderous propesity for "electrically" interogating prisoners. I have someone who would love to meet you, he is a close friend who lives in the states, but had been captured by your forces over there. He has false teeth, because he crushed his while be electrocuted by Russian Army personnel who were questioning him. So don't lecture US about atrocities, when you could write a book on it from your recent history.
Originally posted by Boroda
In Stalin's times we had two times less people in prisons then in 1999... Please stop speaking about things that you don't know.
Well I guess a bullet in the base of the skull would definitely keep your prison population down... ask Stalin's former regime, they perfected the art.
Originally posted by Boroda
I just wonder - does anyone still believe in American "good intentions" in Iraq?
I do, and I know more than 65% of the recent Iraqui poll does too. I am sure if you talked to less Baathists, and more Suni Muslims and Kurds who were severly oppressed, you might find the number is quite high. But you are morethan welcome to listen to liberally biased press, it is guaranteed to make you look like the stooge you look like now.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Ah, so the Gulag was just a Russian Vacation resort! Right on Boroda, glad you straightened that out! ;)
http://www.loc.gov/exhibits/archives/gula.html
Rip, you have a bad habbit of putting words in my mouth. I'll never say it was a "vacation resort". My Grandfather spent two years in BAMLag, 1933-34.
Nice article. As many lies as usual.
By 1934 the Gulag, or Main Directorate for Corrective Labor Camps, then under the Cheka's successor organization the NKVD, had several million inmates.
GULAG population reached one million prisoners in 1940. I'll not read it any further, sorry. Standard anticommunist sheise. Your propaganda didn't use imagination, it simply copies Goebbels's lies.
I thought we were talking about irony, not about how evil all Russians are... :rolleyes:
Oh, sorry, looked at the "letter to Bolshevik" at the page you gave. There is nothing common between the original letter and translation. Beautiful propaganda work, beautiful. I love your methods.
-
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl Comedy gold Boroda!!!!
Damn, I may have left AH, but I could NEVAR leave this BBS...too much entertainment!:lol
Denial, its not an Egyptian river!
-
Originally posted by Bodhi
Actually, I never heard or saw a TV show saying all Russians were criminals, or that you ate babies, but maybe you were hiding something. Every trip I have made to the fromer SU, I found most people to be very nice, hospitable, and good all around people. With the exception of our "military escort" who were corrupt and sadistic bastards, the people there were great. The only "bad" thing I ever heard about the USSR was the obvious, your government was corrupt, did not believe in human rights, and generally oppressed the masses so that a few could live in luxury.
This can be said about any government. I have told you - I don't like our militia, and I think that the only way to fight the situation is do decimate it, and hang bastards on street lamp posts :mad:
Originally posted by Bodhi
The only "anti-Russian" film I ever saw was Red Dawn, and that was so far fetched I laughed. Personally the only police I saw in my visits drove around in Black Zil's and looked like police. Maybe they had there RPG's and RPK's hidden. LOL
Here only big brass-hats drive around in black ZILs, but they prefer Mercedes-Benz now... Militia cars are now white-blue...
Originally posted by Bodhi
So, 25 people act like animals, and now the whole of the American Army is sadistic torturers... come on Boroda, your anti-US goggles are blinding you. It is wrong of those few, but they will be punished, you can be very sure of that. They (the soldiers who did this) gave the US Army a black eye, but you can be sure they will pay severely, especially with the president's attention fixed on them.
I hope they will be punished, but I remember what happned to the company commander who slaughtered Song Mi. He was sentenced to 3 years in jail and released almost immediately after trial. No one of his soldiers who killed several hundreed people was punished.
Originally posted by Bodhi
As for torture and carnage wrecked on a population, need we remind you of the USSr's policies in Afganistan??? I seem to remeber bombs in toys distributed amongst the Afgani population by your Army that maimed and killed thousands of CHILDREN. Not to mention your wonderous propesity for "electrically" interogating prisoners.
Bombs in toys?! Are you nuts? Watched too mant Rambo-3 or what?!
Trap-bombs in toys were invented by "freedom-fighters" that you supported. Also - bombs in tape-recorders, thermoses, other goods Soviet soldiers were buying or finding in "rebels" bases. Don't tell me it was made by Soviets. I have many friends who served there and saw it.
It seems to me it's a nature of your propaganda: first teach terrorists to fit bombs into toys and then accuse Russians. People will believe everything you say about Russian atrocities.
Originally posted by Bodhi
I have someone who would love to meet you, he is a close friend who lives in the states, but had been captured by your forces over there. He has false teeth, because he crushed his while be electrocuted by Russian Army personnel who were questioning him. So don't lecture US about atrocities, when you could write a book on it from your recent history.
Ah, a mercenary? He should be thankfull he got out of there alive. Foreigners caught with arms can be executed immediately as mercenaries according to all the conventions. Literally - mercenaries are not humans, they are dangerous animals.
Did Soviet officers who questioned him make pictures? I bet he'll say they did. If he's the person who told you about Soviet bombs in toys - everything else he says is a lie.
Originally posted by Bodhi
Well I guess a bullet in the base of the skull would definitely keep your prison population down... ask Stalin's former regime, they perfected the art.
Did you see the statistics of death penalies during Stalin's times? You'll be surprised. I wonder how it compares to the US and Western statistics at the same time...
Originally posted by Bodhi
I do, and I know more than 65% of the recent Iraqui poll does too. I am sure if you talked to less Baathists, and more Suni Muslims and Kurds who were severly oppressed, you might find the number is quite high. But you are morethan welcome to listen to liberally biased press, it is guaranteed to make you look like the stooge you look like now.
The purpose of all public opinion polls is to manipulate public opinion.
The purpose of all public opinion polls performed by occupation forces is to justify the occupation.
Sorry, but this things are obvious....
-
Irony is inviting the press into Abu Gharib jail where allegations of human rights abuses is being investigated then throwing the press out when the detainees start talking to them, citing press coverage as a violation of the detainees human rights.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl Comedy gold Boroda!!!!
Damn, I may have left AH, but I could NEVAR leave this BBS...too much entertainment!:lol
Denial, its not an Egyptian river!
Rip, seriously. The "translation" is made in such a way that the whole letter looks absolutely distorted. I hope you believe in my Russian reading skills ;)
It's not my fault that any source you bring here is a propaganda lie. Like if I'll start accusing you of hanging black people and keeping poor Indians in reservations.
-
Originally posted by Monk
eerrr....ya, WTF?
You meant that burning prisoners and hanging the bodies in public places could be better? Like Germans did in Belorussian villages? To scare people so they'll not support partisans?...
:rolleyes:
25 people in the whole American army you say?.... :rolleyes:
-
Baroda can't be this stupid.. Please just set teh hook bud.. u got em..
-
Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
Baroda can't be this stupid.. Please just set teh hook bud.. u got em..
:( but true...
-
Originally posted by Boroda
You meant that burning prisoners and hanging the bodies in public places could be better? Like Germans did in Belorussian villages? To scare people so they'll not support partisans?...
Actually the germans did no such things, it all russuian revisionist propaganda lies. The SS is especially misreprsented in this regard as few people really know that the SS stood for "Super Sweet" and they were exactly like that to russian people who loved them and their behavior.
Arent you glad boroda that now you know the real facts and nt just th awful lies given to you by biased soviet prpagandists?
:rolleyes:
-
I remember going through USAF winter survival at Fairchild AFB in Jan 75. They put bags over our heads and stripped us naked. We were in unheated cells and it was pretty dang cold out.
I guess I was "tortured", eh?
Anyone know of a good lawyer? I'd like to sure for $300 million for pain and suffering from "torture".
Yeah, the deal in Iraq was way wrong. Yeah, those responsible should be punished.
But "torture"? Puhleez. Humiliation, to be sure; "torture"?... time for a reality check, dudez.
I'll get all worked up and teary-eyed about it when I see some of the "peaceful" Islamic leaders crying for investigations into what their co-religionists have done and are still doing in Iraq.
But of course I won't be holding my breath while waiting.
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Actually the germans did no such things, it all russuian revisionist propaganda lies. The SS is especially misreprsented in this regard as few people really know that the SS stood for "Super Sweet" and they were exactly like that to russian people who loved them and their behavior.
Arent you glad boroda that now you know the real facts and nt just th awful lies given to you by biased soviet prpagandists?
:rolleyes:
Is this the official post-Yugoslavian Croatian version?
I hope you are not writing for American history books.
Sorry, I think I misunderstood Monk's post. Looks like I made a common mistake of first writing and then thinnking :( Did he mean that Americans who were hanged from the bridge by Iraqi crowd?
Charred bodies hanging from bridges make me remember nazi atrocities first. Sorry.
-
Originally posted by Toad
Yeah, the deal in Iraq was way wrong. Yeah, those responsible should be punished.
But "torture"? Puhleez. Humiliation, to be sure; "torture"?... time for a reality check, dudez.
I'll get all worked up and teary-eyed about it when I see some of the "peaceful" Islamic leaders crying for investigations into what their co-religionists have done and are still doing in Iraq.
But of course I won't be holding my breath while waiting.
No chit!:aok
-
Anyone ever notice that when Boroda starts looking like a fool in a thread, suddenly "something is lost in translation" excuse comes out? Ohhh, the Soviet bloc mentality, arrogance at its finest.
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Anyone ever notice that when Boroda starts looking like a fool in a thread, suddenly "something is lost in translation" excuse comes out? Ohhh, the Soviet bloc mentality, arrogance at its finest.
Thats BS RIp.. Boroda is doing just fine.. Its not his fault you are ignorant and cannot speak/translate russian. He was attempting to help you..Your just too blind from hate to recognize it...
dude
-
Originally posted by Ripsnort
Anyone ever notice that when Boroda starts looking like a fool in a thread, suddenly "something is lost in translation" excuse comes out? Ohhh, the Soviet bloc mentality, arrogance at its finest.
Thanks.
I think it's obvious that for us "charred bodies hanging from bridges" means nazis, while for you it means poor occupants killed by a barbaric mob. Nothing was "lost in translation", it's cultural, not lingual misunderstanding.
Please, remind me, when did I use this "excuse" before?
It's cultural difference. For Soviet people occupants taking pictures of people they torture and posing in front of them means nazis. It is a first thing that comes in mind. That's why people here are so angry about that "15 people from the whole American army".
-
Toad, please define "torture".
-
Originally posted by Curval
I wondered a similar thing about the whole "torture" of the prisoners thing.
If any of those captive insurgents had been "guests" of Sadaam in an Iraqi prison where torture was a daily thing they must have been thinking "Is this all they are going to do to us? What a bunch of pansies."
Just quoting myself, because it backs up my opinion of what Toad said.
-
Boroda has got to be the ultimate troll!
-
Dont let a camera and 15 people holding signs scare you into thinking the entire country is in turmoil.
Half these frikken protests are probably organized by the media anyway.
Jeez people...
-
tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.
1. a) Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
b) An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
Toad did you volumteer for USAF winter survival training?
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
2. Excruciating (snip) mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
Well ****... we're going to have to hire a boatload of shrinks to talk to the prisoners now. Im sure they are all suffering from nervous breakdowns after their horrible ordeal... all that work and no Greek letters on their sweatshirt.
-
Listen.... nobody is saying that what happened is good. It was wrong to treat prisoners like that and the "individuals" that did it need to be punished.
What they did was not only morally wrong, but places any of our soldiers that find themselves prisoners in the future in the same jeapordy.... or worse.
Boroda, are you saying that this treatment is SOP for the American Army? If so... your wrong. period Are you saying that this is reflective of how americans are in general? This is not what we are about... and if you feel it is.... I'll use your own words "Please stop speaking about things that you don't know. "
-
Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Arent you glad boroda that now you know the real facts and nt just th awful lies given to you by biased soviet prpagandists?
:rolleyes:
It's like some of the elders in my family are fod of saying: The only ones who stayed in Russia past the early 90s were either stupid, unlucky, criminal or any combination of the above.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
tor·ture ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tôrchr)
n.
1. a) Infliction of severe physical pain as a means of punishment or coercion.
b) An instrument or a method for inflicting such pain.
2. Excruciating physical or mental pain; agony: the torture of waiting in suspense.
3. Something causing severe pain or anguish.
Toad did you volumteer for USAF winter survival training?
ex·ag·ger·ate
v. ex·ag·ger·at·ed, ex·ag·ger·at·ing, ex·ag·ger·ates
1)To represent as greater than is actually the case; overstate
2)To enlarge or increase to an abnormal degree
-
In Stalin's times we had two times less people in prisons then in 1999
LOL, I suppose that was because Stalin just had everyone shot, no need for prisons.
According to the Memorial human rights group, Stalin's policies were responsible for the deaths of 9 million to 12 million people, including those who perished in the famines of 1932-33 and 1946-47. It says 25 million passed through the Gulag, Stalin's network of prison camps, or were exiled.
You have more than twice the 25 million of Stalin in the gulags now? Wow, I didnt realize it was so bad there, you have my sympathies.
dago
-
70% of all Iraqis have had NO(zero, that is none, not any) Contact with American forces. Isn't that an interesting little tidbit?
-
Shoot i stepped off the bus at reseption station at Ft Leornard wood Mo and a drill Sgt ask me where is was from.
LOL I said well man Im from Colorado.
The next thing I know I am picking myself up off the pavment.
And another time on a forced road march I was not moving as fast as the DS thought I should have been.
Got a jump boot square in the crack of my butt cracking my tail bone.
Had my face slapped a couple of times too.
This you see was back in the day when they could and would knock the crap out of ya in the army.
Don't think they can get away with it now but my point is was I tortured?
LOL the funny part is after basic graduation the DS that broke my tail bone took me out and got me drunk.
He said he felt bad about it and that he was just trying to motivate me LOL HE DID .
-
What are you implying is being exaggerated Eagler?
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Toad, please define "torture".
Define?
Well, here's what torture isn't:
It isn't stripping someone or some people naked and taking their picture(s). That's humiliation.
There's no physical damage there. Mental anguish perhaps, but hey, this is a daily "locker room" event. People and the world survive such ghastly happenings every day.
Now, some examples of torture to clarify what it is:
First Reliable Evidence of Widespread Rape in Chechen Conflict (http://www.torturecare.org.uk/news/newsRelease04-15-04.htm)
....During assessment and treatment, 16 of the women and one man disclosed that they had been raped. In 13 of these cases, the alleged perpetrators were Russian soldiers, in three cases they were said to be Russian police officers, and in one Chechen rebels....
In its report, the Medical Foundation also documents other forms of torture and ill-treatment, including repeated kicking, beating and burning. Its medical doctors have documented shoulder dislocations, fractures, and damaged kidneys...
Physical damage in all cases and mental anguish that goes far beyond the exposure of ones private parts to the camera.
Hope that helps.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Toad did you volumteer for USAF winter survival training?
No.
I offered to spend the time on the beach in California mentally preparing myself for CCTS training.
They insisted, however, and ordered me to go to Fairchild.
-
Thanks for the response.
I am somewhat surprised though that you would make an arguement with what seems to be a pretty obvious flaw in it.
To paraphrase.
X and Y have similar elements, therefore they are the same.
You compare the two incidents, but you totally ignore all the contasting elements that totally differentiate the two incidents.
-
You'll figure it out eventually. You're a sharp guy.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
What are you implying is being exaggerated Eagler?
the entire thing - to make the good the US has done and is doing in sandsville look bad
yep, what some did was out of line, they will be dealt with - now pls move on - but you can't as this is something that makes the US look bad so that is good for you and others here
-
Originally posted by Boroda
.
I just wonder - does anyone still believe in American "good intentions" in Iraq?
Yea. I DO.
For one thing This is the exeption rather then the norm yet it is spoken of as if all the thousands of prisoners were being treated in this manner. They are not.
Talk about propaganda
Yet these things are mild and almost childsplay in comparison to what is done to our people when captured by them.
But I guess that is ok right?
In every war atrocities are committed by all sides.And yes we had some of our soldiers do some not so nice things in WWII also. As did the Brits, Germans, Russians etc etc etc
So while this was untasteful to say the least. It is not entirely without precident.
For another thing it was pointed out that had Saddam been in power any protest against a current authority would have been met with swift and brutal punishment and often not nearly as quick and merciful as a bullet in the head
so yes I beleive we do have good intentions.
These people are now free. Free to speak out against what they dont like. Free to stand up and say publically and loudly they do not like who is in charge. And free to say they do not want us there any longer. OR any of a billion other things they may want ot say be they right or wrong they are free to do so.
How many of those freedoms were allowed under Saddam?
-
Originally posted by txmx
Shoot i stepped off the bus at reseption station at Ft Leornard wood Mo and a drill Sgt ask me where is was from.
LOL I said well man Im from Colorado.
The next thing I know I am picking myself up off the pavment.
And another time on a forced road march I was not moving as fast as the DS thought I should have been.
Got a jump boot square in the crack of my butt cracking my tail bone.
Had my face slapped a couple of times too.
This you see was back in the day when they could and would knock the crap out of ya in the army.
Don't think they can get away with it now but my point is was I tortured?
LOL the funny part is after basic graduation the DS that broke my tail bone took me out and got me drunk.
He said he felt bad about it and that he was just trying to motivate me LOL HE DID .
How caveman-ish. I think we should put together a war crimes tribunal to condemn the actions of basic instructors everywhere.
Hell, I could probably get a serious chunk of money out of it too - I didnt break a tail bone, but I had my nose bloodied in the middle of a couple humps by a large black gentleman wearing duece gear and five stripes on two occassions!
I want a presidential apology!
(PS: Regardless of what you hear these days - instructors still use 'physical motivation' as necessary. And I do think its necessary on occassion. Sometimes its the only thing some of the young lads recognize to mean 'Im in charge.')
-
Well said Eagler The wrongs commited are being delt with .
But my goddness If having a hood put over your head and having to stand around neekid is the worst we did !
As far as torture goes it was pretty lite.
In fact i would not even call It torture but more degridation and humiliation .
Do some reearch on the treatment of americans by the japanese in WW2 .
Now there was torture!
Now please do not get me wrong on this.
These young soldiers where very wrong and should be and are being punished for there stupid actions.
But i think the world press has got ahold of a juicy bone that they are going to chew on for a very long time.
-
Originally posted by Saurdaukar
How caveman-ish. I think we should put together a war crimes tribunal to condemn the actions of basic instructors everywhere.
Hell, I could probably get a serious chunk of money out of it too - I didnt break a tail bone, but I had my nose bloodied in the middle of a couple humps by a large black gentleman wearing duece gear and five stripes on two occassions!
I want a presidential apology!
(PS: Regardless of what you hear these days - instructors still use 'physical motivation' as necessary. And I do think its necessary on occassion. Sometimes its the only thing some of the young lads recognize to mean 'Im in charge.')
Oh dont get me wrong partner.
I deserved every bit of "extra" motivation I got.
When I got to basic I thought I was the c ock of the walk LOL.
I quickly found out i was not.
If I ever saw Drill SGT Tally again And Drill SGT fernadez I would buy them dinner and thank them for kickin my butt!
-
Originally posted by Eagler
the entire thing - to make the good the US has done and is doing in sandsville look bad
Well I guess the US government (including the Bush administration) and military are in on the plot as well.
yep, what some did was out of line, they will be dealt with
You don't know that, you are hoping that. There are still to many questions regarding the military intelligence contractors and they roll they played, as well as those had authority over them.
Originally posted by txmx
But my goddness If having a hood put over your head and having to stand around neekid is the worst we did !
It isn't.
-
Originally posted by Toad
You'll figure it out eventually. You're a sharp guy.
I guess not that sharp, because I can't see anything but an incomplete comparison as the basis for ridicule, unless you were sodomized with a broomstick during your winter survival training.
-
Originally posted by muckmaw
If that's what you call torture, I guess I was worried about the Red Menace all those years for nothing!
From the pictures and details I've gotten, that's what we call "Fraternity Hazing".
Don't believe the hype!
RW talking Point Alert!
Rush-Hannity-O'Reilly - frat prank comparison. Dont you know that frat boys volunteer for it?? big difference.
-
Oh, you realize my point, I think.
It's just that you wish to make it into more than I said. IMO, of course.
Like all these incredibly important, vital, red hot issues of the minute on the news channels, let's just let it play out a bit until there's a better picture of what did and did not happen.
Then there might be a basis for further discussion.
Or it may turn out to be another tempest in a teapot that serves to get people to tune in to CNN for the very latest in critical updates.
-
Mr. Toad, you're a realist, aren't you?
:cool:
-
Originally posted by BigGun
Was watching on the news a group of protestors in Iraq, protesting the US being there. It just struck me as odd, if US wasn't there they would never be able to protest anything without a bullet in the head. Ironic.
Funny as I recall plenty of protesters in Iraq prior to the invasion some in a big red london bus who never received a bullet in the head.
However plenty of press seem to of died to US bullets since the Invasion. Hear two more were killed driving in their car the other day even though they had PRESS written all over it in big flourecent letters.
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Hear two more were killed driving in their car the other day even though they had PRESS written all over it in big flourecent letters.
...-Gixer
Got any real details on it? Or are you just absolutely sure that no one would ever pack a car with explosives, write PRESS all over it in big letters and then use it to car bomb something?
-
Yeah I think Saddam would have allowed his people to protest just prior to going to war. Looks good for them don't ya think? What about the fact he let how many prisoners he had been keeping go right prior to the war? I'm sure he'd been planning on doing that all along right?
If you think a bunch of stupid guard troops who acted like college students are what the rest of the military are about your sadly mistaken. They hazed those prisoners which isn't right at all but folks make it out to being more than it is. They do deserve to be punished for their actions but give me a break on calling it torture.
If we wanna go into the whole civilians being killed in Iraq how about what Iraqis are doing to their own right now? How many have been killed by their own since the start of the war/liberation? If they cared so damn much about peace and wanting civil rights then maybe they'd linch the militias that are supposedly fighting for them but yet in the same respect killing them on a daily basis. It's funny how so many wanna stand up and cry wolf against the US while their own people(militias) don't care if they (Iraqis) get caught up in the crossfire. Ofcourse if it's American bullets that kill innocent civilians it's wrong but if Iraqi militias do it it's because the Americans started it and they (militia)were protecting Iraq from the US invaders.
It's rather amusing how the tides turn. In the beginning many Iraqis were glad Saddam was gone and wanted to start over again with rights as a human being. As time has passed they now seem to want their old regime back and get rid of the invaders that they once greeted with open arms.
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Hear two more were killed driving in their car the other day even though they had PRESS written all over it in big flourecent letters.
I haven't heard it mentioned anywhere that that incident involved the US military.
"Two foreign journalists killed in Iraq
Last Updated Fri, 07 May 2004 17:29:51
BAGHDAD - Two foreign journalists were killed Friday in a drive-by shooting near Baghdad.
Polish journalist Waldemar Milewicz in 1999 (AP photo)
A Polish and an Algerian journalist died, while another Pole was injured in the attack, about 30 kilometres south of the capital.
All of the journalists reportedly worked for the Polish television station TVP.
The dead have been identified as television correspondent Waldemar Milewicz and producer Mounir Bouamrane.
Polish cameraman Jerzy Ernst was wounded in the arm and is in a U.S. hospital in Baghdad.
A police spokesperson had no further details about the attack."
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2004/05/07/world/iraq_journalists040507
-
Originally posted by Cobra412
They hazed those prisoners which isn't right at all but folks make it out to being more than it is. They do deserve to be punished for their actions but give me a break on calling it torture.
Bull****. Hazing is an initiation ritual performed on people who decide to opt into an orginisation. These prisoner had no such choice.
They were beaten and sodomised with a broomstick. That is torture.
-
I hadn't heard of the other incident your referring to so FU. If your so damn good why don't you go police the the world so we don't have to. Either way I don't condone what they have done. The reports I saw were about them being undressed in front of other prisoners and stacked on top of each other. You can get off your high horse now.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
They were beaten and sodomised with a broomstick. That is torture.
Been real busy, must have missed this.
Link?
-
Taguba report (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/)
6. (S) I find that the intentional abuse of detainees by military police personnel included the following acts:
a. (S) Punching, slapping, and kicking detainees; jumping on their naked feet;
b. (S) Videotaping and photographing naked male and female detainees;
c. (S) Forcibly arranging detainees in various sexually explicit positions for photographing;
d. (S) Forcing detainees to remove their clothing and keeping them naked for several days at a time;
e. (S) Forcing naked male detainees to wear women’s underwear;
f. (S) Forcing groups of male detainees to masturbate themselves while being photographed and videotaped;
g. (S) Arranging naked male detainees in a pile and then jumping on them;
h. (S) Positioning a naked detainee on a MRE Box, with a sandbag on his head, and attaching wires to his fingers, toes, and noodle to simulate electric torture;
i. (S) Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;
j. (S) Placing a dog chain or strap around a naked detainee’s neck and having a female Soldier pose for a picture;
k. (S) A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee;
l. (S) Using military working dogs (without muzzles) to intimidate and frighten detainees, and in at least one case biting and severely injuring a detainee;
m. (S) Taking photographs of dead Iraqi detainees.
and
8. (U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):
a. (U) Breaking chemical lights and pouring the phosphoric liquid on detainees;
b. (U) Threatening detainees with a charged 9mm pistol;
c. (U) Pouring cold water on naked detainees;
d. (U) Beating detainees with a broom handle and a chair;
e. (U) Threatening male detainees with rape;
f. (U) Allowing a military police guard to stitch the wound of a detainee who was injured after being slammed against the wall in his cell;
g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.
h. (U) Using military working dogs to frighten and intimidate detainees with threats of attack, and in one instance actually biting a detainee.
-
Now which of those do you consider "torture"?
Which of these do you consider "standard operating procedure" for the US Armed Forces?
Which of these do you consider an act by a single soldier or small group of soldiers that is clearly in violation of the prisoner policy of the US Armed Forces in Iraq?
-
I just hope the Arab people in general, and the Iraqi people in perticular, will be as able to shrug this off as "hazing" as some of you here can.
-
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/
"But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them “hard to believe.”
“There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. “... It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid.”
Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys."
-
Originally posted by Boroda
Definetly I'll prefer Russian Militia to a concentration camps built by occupants.
Our militia is corrupt, it is ineffective, I don't like that bastards in grey uniforms, but they don't torture people and don't make pictures of tortures for fun, like nazis did.
Yes, on your television you were told that Russians are all criminals and eat little babies alive. I love your propaganda.
I saw some of the films about our Militia. I loved the comments. They make you believe that special forces capturing armed criminals is what we have here every time someone gets arrested.
You know, I was not surprised when I heard the news about tortures in Iraq. Song Mi, you know...
In Stalin's times we had two times less people in prisons then in 1999... Please stop speaking about things that you don't know.
I just wonder - does anyone still believe in American "good intentions" in Iraq?
Boroda. why are so many americans so ignorant to their countries propagand and lies. i suppose becuase tey havnt had hundreds of years of good evolution to become intelligent. :)
the average IQ must be alot lower than Russia or UK
-
Folks, we are not right simply because we are Americans. We are right based on what we do.
Many of the acts against the prisoners are among the most humiliating, insulting acts that can be performed upon someone from that culture. Many of the prisoners in American custody are innocent citizens.
If you can't understand how sexual humiliation is considered a form of torture, perhaps it will help if you imagine these acts performed upon and photographed by foreigners upon your mother, father, sons or daughters.
If you are human, that would infuriate you, and it should.
And if you don't care about the human rights of foreigners, presumably you do care about what the bottom line will be to America, and I can assure you that whatever intelligence and leverage was gained by that treatment of prisoners, will be overshadowed 1,000 times over by the resentment of the Muslim world and the disgust of the world in general.
What Bin Laden wanted was a war of cultures, and America is repeatedly handing him a propoganda bonanza.
-
I don't think anyone is "shrugging it off".
I hope those responsible are tried and punished to the full extent of the law, commensurate with the damage they have caused to the situation in Iraq.
I think our leadership has correctly expressed our disappointment and outrage against the perpetrators.
OTOH, I don't accept the idea that this is "typical" or "standard" behavior for US forces. Nor do I accept the idea that these things were done "systemically", IE: that this was a standard, ordered-from-above method of dealing with prisoners.
Further, I think that those who attempt to paint it as "typical" or "standard" behavior probably have a different agenda rather than just protesting these acts.
Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys."
Yes, more bad news. However, I'm sure that the people responsible will be punished as I mentioned above.
If anyone wishes to make the case that an army in a similar situation exists or has existed that has/had absolutely no "bad apples" and no disgusting incidences of this kind, feel free to do so.
It's a terrible thing; it's disguting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result.
What else do you want?
-
Originally posted by BigGun
Was watching on the news a group of protestors in Iraq, protesting the US being there. It just struck me as odd, if US wasn't there they would never be able to protest anything without a bullet in the head. Ironic.
Man isn't that the truth.. kinda sad.
-
buck another intelligent person, not clouded by blind patriotism to his country. i salute anyone who has the brains to think about what human existence really is, not just 'american' existance
-
Mechanic,
I take issue with that.
In this instance, what do you see as "propaganda" or "lies"? Looks like to me the authorities have been very forthcoming about what happened, have apologized and have promised to punish those responsible.
I haven't seen any US posters here saying this situation was anything but disgraceful.
Please explain.
-
Originally posted by Toad
Mechanic,
I take issue with that.
In this instance, what do you see as "propaganda" or "lies"? Looks like to me the authorities have been very forthcoming about what happened, have apologized and have promised to punish those responsible.
I haven't seen any US posters here saying this situation was anything but disgraceful.
Please explain.
ok toad, apologies for the last post of mine.
i believe that the nations os USA and UK are forefront in the detruction of the world.
that is all
i dont think we can believe a word that any of our governments say, ever.
its all a load of crap.
my only objections to this is when you get blind patriots who think their country is the best ever and will always be right and just.
it simply not true
patriotism was essential in days gone by but these days its a waste of time in my opinion.
i believe we should be faithfull to our friends and families and not waste time supporting cuases which do not need our help to continue their destructive ambitions
just my honest opinion
:)
-
When Cobra412 was being initiated at his collage, they had to stand around naked with hoods on and masturbate themselves...
Toad I’m reading your debate here and it’s blowin’ my mind man.. You can’t possibly expect to win this..
-
10Bears pretty amusing comment I must say. Even though I didn't go to college I atleast know how to spell it. Maybe next time if your going to make a sarcastic comment you can atleast use a spell checker to keep yourself from looking like your ignorant.
-
you can atleast use a spell checker to keep yourself from looking like your ignorant.
Just for fun:
atleast = at least
your ignorant = you're or you are ignorant
-
guess we put this lot to shame ...
with our "jumping on naked feet" torture methods..
(http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/USPics/bataan/daws3.jpg)
what were we thinking? where is their three square meals, a/c cells and 300 channel cable tvs?
-
Originally posted by 10Bears
Toad I’m reading your debate here and it’s blowin’ my mind man.. You can’t possibly expect to win this..
There isn't anything to "win" here.
It's just pretty obvious what's going on.
Here....... read this again, give me your answer:
It's a terrible thing; it's disgusting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result.
What else do you want?
-
Originally posted by Toad
I don't think anyone is "shrugging it off".
I hope those responsible are tried and punished to the full extent of the law, commensurate with the damage they have caused to the situation in Iraq.
I think our leadership has correctly expressed our disappointment and outrage against the perpetrators.
OTOH, I don't accept the idea that this is "typical" or "standard" behavior for US forces. Nor do I accept the idea that these things were done "systemically", IE: that this was a standard, ordered-from-above method of dealing with prisoners.
Further, I think that those who attempt to paint it as "typical" or "standard" behavior probably have a different agenda rather than just protesting these acts.
Yes, more bad news. However, I'm sure that the people responsible will be punished as I mentioned above.
If anyone wishes to make the case that an army in a similar situation exists or has existed that has/had absolutely no "bad apples" and no disgusting incidences of this kind, feel free to do so.
It's a terrible thing; it's disguting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result.
What else do you want?
I hope youa are right and every one who is responsible gets just punishment.
I think what everyone is worried about is the possibility that the arab world is going to go freakin nuts over this.
-
Originally posted by Eagler
guess we put this lot to shame ...
with our "jumping on naked feet" torture methods..
(http://history.sandiego.edu/gen/USPics/bataan/daws3.jpg)
what were we thinking? where is their three square meals, a/c cells and 300 channel cable tvs?
What prisons are you talking about? Give me an example of an american prison with a/c and 300 channels in their cell. If you can find one I can point to several ****holes that have no a/c, or that enforce hard labor, vermin infested, etc.
THere might be afew plush country club prisons for the rich in the fed system but state prisons aint pleasant places.
-
Oh, some people will go "freakin' nuts" over it. Some simply for political purposes and some because they are actually outraged simply on moral grounds. I suspect the former will far outnumber the latter.
However, what's done is done and can't be undone. It doesn't equate to a huge, incredible war crime, however. Those that try to make it the equal of say, ethnic cleansing in Bosnia simply have another, ulterior motive.
The army........ any nation's army...... will reflect the general populace. IE: if you have thieves in the general populace, there will be some in that army as well.
No matter how good an organization, there's always some "rotten apples". Anyone here want to make the case that there's a Police Force in any large city in the world that doesn't have a few officer's guilty of felonius crime? And yet most police are dedicated to the motto of "Protect and Serve". How can it happen that some are crooks?
As I said:
It's a terrible thing; it's disgusting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result.
What else do you want?
-
I kinda agree with Toad... bad apples, or a set of circumstances that allowed the bad apples to do what they did.
Like he said, "it reflects the general populace". True enough, and I wouldn't expect differently.
Nor, I should hope, would an administration... who would send a certain percentage of these bad apples into the powder keg known as the middle east on the flimsiest of evidence, for the sketchiest of reasons.
They must have thought the trade-off would be worth it. That the pluses would outweigh these minuses.
While the minuses are starting to rear their ugly heads, I get more and more confused about whatever the pluses were supposed to be in the first place.
Is this really worth it? If so, what exactly is "it"? Or does it depend on your definition of "is"? :)
Remember the debates we had over this war Toad? Hindsight is 20-20, and it still aint over, but did you ever suspect that your BBS battles would be reduced to defending actions taken wrt to torture and not a whole lot else?
Ah... those were loftier times.... :)
-
strk
you in the backwoods of mississippi or what?
every prison I know of have air conditioned cells and the majority have cable tv, not to mention libraries and such
the cons live better inside with their buds than outside
I think you have seen one to many reruns of Cool Hand Luke - it aint done that way anymore - thats not being nice enough to the criminals in our PC world...
and this entire uproar is politically driven - trying to make Bush look bad. You think the average Joe gives a rats arse what happens to who in an Iraqi prison???
I don't give a rats arse what happens to who in an American prison and I think I am in the majority on that one...
-
Originally posted by Nash
did you ever suspect that your BBS battles would be reduced to defending actions taken wrt to torture and not a whole lot else?
Clearly a misconception. Please show where I have defended actions taken wrt torture.
I don't condone or approve of any aspect of what happened to the prisoners.
As for the rest, while I was in DC I talked with a person that is directly involved with the "war on terror" at a very high level. I'm sure you'll be interested to hear that he believes chemical weapons were shifted from Iraq to Syria in the two months prior to the war. He had no reason to lie to me, nor did he impart any classified information. However, he just looked me in the eye and said he believes that to be true.
Now, I'm sure that will be easily dismissed by you. I won't be voting for or supporting Bush this time around; he's had his year to find some evidence and display it to the nation.
Still, I can't dismiss what this guy said. I know his history, I roughly know his place in the "war on terror" and he's got access to very high level intel. I also know that he is not "partisan" in the Republican/Democrat sense. What he is, is an old fashioned patriot, neither Dem or Rep but American.
If he's right, then there's some reason this Administration doesn't want to deal with Syria. Yet if the weapons are there, they are probably as much a threat to us as they were in Iraq.
Can't have it both ways. Either they aren't there and the intel was totally wrong. Or they are in Syria and the Admin, so eager to get them out of Iraq is now shirking on getting them out of Syria. Either way, I can't support Bush.
-
By "actions taken wrt to torture", I meant just that. Didn't mean to imply you're defending the torture itself.
"It's a terrible thing; it's disgusting that it happened at all. It's been discovered, action taken, apologies made, restitution discussed and punishment of the guilty will result."
These are actions taken wrt to this mess... And we're not in any disagreement here.
About your friend with the inside info, I remember you saying much the same thing in the months before the war. It's why you were so certain. But the info was that the weapons were in Iraq. If Syria gets invaded and no weapons are found, will it turn out that the weapons are actually in Turkey?
-
I don't feel like I'm "defending actions taken wrt torture" in either case. Seems to me that a lot of folks haven't taken the time to really look at what happened and the timeline followed. What you quoted is just my take on what happened. It needs no defense, because it common sense. It's how people handle problems in large or small organizations or in their personal life. Problem discovery, problem investigated, solution proposed, action taken, move on.
Note that none of the people trying to make this out to be worse than the Holocaust have been able to answer the simple question "what else do you want?"
As for the WMD, my source prior to the war was a different person. The more recent commentary on Syria is a completely different source. As I said, I'm sure you dismiss it easily. I know the guy, know what job he has, know his integrity. I can't dismiss it easily. I'm comfortable with guys like you dismissing it, however. I didn't post it with the intention of trying to change a mind that's been made up long ago. It's merely the reason I still remain somewhat unconvinced that Bush was wrong.
As I said though, if they are in Syria, they'd still seem to be as much of a threat to us as they were in Iraq. So, his inaction in that event is as unsupportable as his being wrong initially to me. All of the same coin.