Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StabbyTheIcePic on May 07, 2004, 11:27:02 PM
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Sure looks like it.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/
But Rumsfeld warned the committee that the worst was yet to come. He said he had looked at the full array of unedited photographs of the situation at Abu Ghraib for the first time Thursday night and found them “hard to believe.”
“There are other photos that depict incidents of physical violence towards prisoners, acts that can only be described as blatantly sadistic, cruel and inhumane," he said. “... It’s going to get a good deal more terrible, I’m afraid.”
Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.
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Hey Stabby, which banned BB member are you again?
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My God I hope they don't give those to the media.....
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That chick that's appearing in all the photos? Kimmy England or something? She got sent home on account of her getting pregnant.
I could easily spend 10 minutes just thinking about everything that entails.
The sickness AND the sick comedy.
. "This is your father when we went out on our first walk together."
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man the rest of her life is MUD, hopefully they'll hand her over to the Iraqi's and let them deal with her ;)
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So how do the Islamic guards sodomise the boys without seeing them naked? Oh, the humanity!
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Originally posted by Lizking
So how do the Islamic guards sodomise the boys without seeing them naked? Oh, the humanity!
Oh cod.. those who know not will think this horribly inappropriate.
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Originally posted by Nash
That chick that's appearing in all the photos? Kimmy England or something? She got sent home on account of her getting pregnant.
I could easily spend 10 minutes just thinking about everything that entails.
The sickness AND the sick comedy.
. "This is your father when we went out on our first walk together."
Agreed. This is going to piss allot of people off, but welcome to the world of a Reservist Military. Thanks to a decade of slashing cuts in active duty military.
...whod'a thunkit?
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The cuts haven't stopped.
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Originally posted by Sandman
The cuts haven't stopped.
-18,000 USAF by 2005.
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Kinda makes you wonder what the hell is going on, eh?
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Spill it Sand... Yer second home is the Pentagon. :) Whatcha think IS going on?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Kinda makes you wonder what the hell is going on, eh?
Whats going on is the fantastical idea that we (the U.S.) have the capabiltity and desire (if needed) to fight a two or three front war with the forces at hand. Naturally.. this comes from having politically appointed civilian service secretaries.
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Transformation (http://www.oft.osd.mil/)
For the Navy, Sea Power 21 (http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/cno/proceedings.html)
I'm not sure what the Air Force and Army have named thier "vision" statements.
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Aw crap....
Links.
Fine.... be like that.
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Originally posted by Tumor
-18,000 USAF by 2005.
Yup....good bye recruiting shortages hello palice chase.
Seriously people what do you expect. The military is full of fine citizens. BUT, look were we recruit from. Look at college kids and look at the things they do. Look at our teenagers and some of the things they do that have been caught of "video".
This is your military...the good....the bad...the ugly.
Is this a surpise? If so you are SNOWED. Do you think this sort of thing has never happend before? If the anser is no please grab your ears and bang your head against your computer screen.
The difference is this: We have high speed internet and digital cameras very plentiful. You are going to see the ugliest sides of humanity almost as they happen.
You have people that want to hide there head in the sand and politicise EVERYTHING.
Stabby you are correct....this watermelon is gonna happen....it wouldnt matter if Bush were pres. It wouldnt matter if kerry were pres. It wouldnt matter if George Washinton himself were CIC.
BUT think of it this way. These people are a minority in the military. Right or wrong this is not the norm. The norm is you do your job.....you follow the rules....or you end up shackled in an orange jump suit.
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Nevermind Sand... Gunslinger beat ya to it.
The reason for it is, appearently, high speed digital cameras.
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Originally posted by Nash
Aw crap....
Links.
Fine.... be like that.
:D
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Originally posted by Nash
Nevermind Sand... Gunslinger beat ya to it.
The reason for it is, appearently, high speed digital cameras.
Ok, FWIW... everything, and I mean EVERYTHING will be ok, so long as you provide lots of pics closely related to your avatar.
T.
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See Sand? Good try with your avatar.... But for every avatar related thread hyjack you get, I get another. You can't win.
;) Tumor
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Originally posted by Nash
Nevermind Sand... Gunslinger beat ya to it.
The reason for it is, appearently, high speed digital cameras.
That's not it. :)
We are becoming a long-distance warfighter. The american people have no stomach for seeing their children sent home in body bags. Look for less people in combat. More remote operated vehicles and more automated systems. I wouldn't be at all surprised in 25 years to see that the Air Force and Navy no longer strike anything directly. Unmanned vehicles and missiles will be the order of battle, followed by a smaller and smaller force of grunts (no insult intended).
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her names not kimmy its Lynndie England
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In 25 years, we will have a US based strike force that can hit any target on earth within a few hours. We are developing land based aircraft that can reach orbit and deliver payloads anywhere, eliminating airspace and foriegn base restrictions...while being pretty much invulnerable to any defense.
The only limit to our power will be the will to fund it.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Ok, FWIW... everything, and I mean EVERYTHING will be ok, so long as you provide lots of pics closely related to your avatar.
T.
Tumor my avitar is my past. To be honest your avitar is my future. (mostly a quality of life issue)
I work on ejection seats now for the USAF. This gives me a broad range of perspective from being a ground pounder and a maintainer.
Really though the US military. No it does not revolve around digital cameras. It revolves around people just like you and me.
Have you seen the video of the teenagers in vegas who are rich kids that go around beating the crap out of others. Does that make sense. It does if you remember being a teenager.
I've trained alot of newbies in the military from the poor black kid who grew up in the projects to the rich white kid who joined to piss off his parents. To take our troops today and lump them into one group is wrong. We have all walks of life all creeds all religions both genders and all colors. We get the best and the worst of society. WE ARE held to a greater standard and for that I get total strangers shaking my hand and saying thank you for no other reason than doing my job. Sorry for ranting tonite....maybe if you've served or no somone who has and talked to them you know what i'm saying. It just deeply sadens me that the WORLD is paying that much light on this and the US is so politicising this.
truth is its simple.....its war....wars ugly.....pople do bad things....doesnt make it right.....but to exploit it for personal gain is even worse in my book
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Originally posted by NUKE
In 25 years, we will have a US based strike force that can hit any target on earth within a few hours. We are developing land based aircraft that can reach orbit and deliver payloads anywhere, eliminating airspace and foriegn base restrictions...while being pretty much invulnerable to any defense.
The only limit to our power will be the will to fund it.
Yep... and there won't be anyone riding these machines. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman
That's not it. :)
We are becoming a long-distance warfighter. The american people have no stomach for seeing their children sent home in body bags. Look for less people in combat. More remote operated vehicles and more automated systems. I wouldn't be at all surprised in 25 years to see that the Air Force and Navy no longer strike anything directly. Unmanned vehicles and missiles will be the order of battle, followed by a smaller and smaller force of grunts (no insult intended).
You are very much correct.
I stated in a previous post that I work on ejection seats. I've been told in so many words that the F-35 will be the last system I ever learn. Main reason: It will be the last manned tacticle system developed. Its actually a common joke with new guys saying "the UCAV needs an egress final"
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
her names not kimmy its Lynndie England
Lynndie, eh?
K lemme try it out.
Lynndie.
Lyndieeeee.
Lynndieaaaa.
Lynndiooooooooh......
Gimmy some lynndie.......
Lynndelicious.....
GAWDAMMIT $%$# way to ruin a good thing.
Don't get me wrong, I still have the hots for her. But now I gotta rethink my plans.
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http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=1302907
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Lynndie England, 21, a rail worker's daughter, comes from a trailer park in Fort Ashby, West Virginia, which locals proudly call "a backwoods world".
I had to stop after the first line.....if that's not a steryotype (not saying its not true) I dont know what is.
:rofl
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Tumor my avitar is my past. To be honest your avitar is my future. (mostly a quality of life issue)
I work on ejection seats now for the USAF. This gives me a broad range of perspective from being a ground pounder and a maintainer.
Really though the US military. No it does not revolve around digital cameras. It revolves around people just like you and me.
Have you seen the video of the teenagers in vegas who are rich kids that go around beating the crap out of others. Does that make sense. It does if you remember being a teenager.
I've trained alot of newbies in the military from the poor black kid who grew up in the projects to the rich white kid who joined to piss off his parents. To take our troops today and lump them into one group is wrong. We have all walks of life all creeds all religions both genders and all colors. We get the best and the worst of society. WE ARE held to a greater standard and for that I get total strangers shaking my hand and saying thank you for no other reason than doing my job. Sorry for ranting tonite....maybe if you've served or no somone who has and talked to them you know what i'm saying. It just deeply sadens me that the WORLD is paying that much light on this and the US is so politicising this.
truth is its simple.....its war....wars ugly.....pople do bad things....doesnt make it right.....but to exploit it for personal gain is even worse in my book
Gun... FWIW, having worked with Marines, Army, and Navy the last 3 yrs, I have to say I find the USMC the most capable, well organized and "have it's **** together" service... peroid.
However.. I was referring to Nash's avitar..not yours. Hey, I love your avitar. But Nash's gets me all hot and botherd :)
T.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I had to stop after the first line.....if that's not a steryotype (not saying its not true) I dont know what is.
:rofl
Gun, you and I are usually on the opposite side of a subject, but I gotta agree with ya on this.
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Originally posted by Nash
Lynndie, eh?
K lemme try it out.
Lynndie.
Lyndieeeee.
Lynndieaaaa.
Lynndiooooooooh......
Gimmy some lynndie.......
Lynndelicious.....
GAWDAMMIT $%$# way to ruin a good thing.
Don't get me wrong, I still have the hots for her. But now I gotta rethink my plans.
you have the hots for Lyndie England? She is a skank.
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Originally posted by Tumor
Gun... FWIW, having worked with Marines, Army, and Navy the last 3 yrs, I have to say I find the USMC the most capable, well organized and "have it's **** together" service... peroid.
However.. I was referring to Nash's avitar..not yours. Hey, I love your avitar. But Nash's gets me all hot and botherd :)
T.
Ill second that tumor. Marines are in a class by themselves.
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Personally, in light of these sickening revelations, I think it is time for our society to do some soul searching about our attitudes involving sex, self-gratification, ego-centrism, and moral values in general.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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The question on my mind is how was this allowed to go on for the past year?
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Originally posted by Nash
Lynndie, eh?
K lemme try it out.
Lynndie.
Lyndieeeee.
Lynndieaaaa.
Lynndiooooooooh......
Gimmy some lynndie.......
Lynndelicious.....
GAWDAMMIT $%$# way to ruin a good thing.
Don't get me wrong, I still have the hots for her. But now I gotta rethink my plans.
Ok now I'm afraid that you are taking drugs again... ;)
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
The question on my mind is how was this allowed to go on for the past year?
IMO Poor leadership and supervision at the prison is the primary cause, training could be a problem too.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
IMO Poor leadership and supervision at the prison is the primary cause, training could be a problem too.
Or it could just be human nature... http://www.prisonexp.org/
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Originally posted by Sandman
Or it could just be human nature... http://www.prisonexp.org/
But thats not an excuse.
Its also human nature not to want to get killed yet the Army is very succesful in training and leading people to enter battle.
They should have an equally effective taining and leadership program to prevent abuses.
So I wont accept that as a line of reasoing, they should train people better.
If that article I posted is accurate anout the predominant cultural attitudes of this MP unit's membership then there needs to be some serious training going on before these people are ever allowed to be in contol of another human being.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Or it could just be human nature... http://www.prisonexp.org/
My question is who allowed this **** to go on for the past year? Why did their superior officers turn a blind eye?
This is not human nature, this is the nature of sick humans.
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According to that right-wing pro-bush site, it DIDN'T go on for a year. Check the "Abuse Timeline" they have posted.
According to CNN:
October-December 2003: Many of the alleged abuses at Abu Ghraib take place during this time period
........
January 13, 2004: Army Spc. Joseph M. Darby, an MP with the 800th at Abu Ghraib, first reports cases of abuse at the prison.
January 16: Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez orders a criminal investigation into reports of abuse at the prison by members of the brigade. The military also announces the investigation publicly
Looks like first instances in October, investigation begins in January. Four months.
There's no excusing it and it shouldn't be excused.
There's also no way to make it into the "standard of behavior" of all US troops.
It's an aberration, not a norm. Those that try to depict it otherwise are simply making themselves look........ like people of low intelligence.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
But thats not an excuse.
Its also human nature not to want to get killed yet the Army is very succesful in training and leading people to enter battle.
They should have an equally effective taining and leadership program to prevent abuses.
So I wont accept that as a line of reasoing, they should train people better.
If that article I posted is accurate anout the predominant cultural attitudes of this MP unit's membership then there needs to be some serious training going on before these people are ever allowed to be in contol of another human being.
What about the private contractors that were doing such things. Even if we reform our army, what about them?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
So I wont accept that as a line of reasoing, they should train people better.
You're probably right, but I bet they spent most of their training dollars learning how to fight instead.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
My question is who allowed this **** to go on for the past year? Why did their superior officers turn a blind eye?
This is not human nature, this is the nature of sick humans.
The perpetrators, the immediuate superiors, and the commander of the prison - it's their "fault."
However its the US presidents responsibility to accept and correct the situation.
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This Lyndie chick really made a FOOL out of her self and did for sure discrace her uniform no excuse for that kind of silly crap.
Stabby I'm allways gonna be on or militarys side but in the case of these tards I agree with ya bud.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
What about the private contractors that were doing such things. Even if we reform our army, what about them?
Same thing, demand that they have training and behavior standards. Alsa write those into their contracts and hold the them peronally liable for abuses.
Although I hate lawyers and whining lawsiots I personally cant wait for those Iraqis to sue the watermelon out of our country. We ****ed up BAD and we have to held accountyable - yes even financialy. This crap is not what America is about, it pisses me off beyond belief and I hope the guilty parties are severly punished.
Sandaman in light of the current situation consider the ROI of some better MP training early on.... I hope that area now gets a lot more funding...
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
What about the private contractors that were doing such things. Even if we reform our army, what about them?
As long as they fill out the daily TPS cover sheets, they are within behavioral specifications according to company policy.
Seriously, private companies need to conform to the policy of their customer, the USA. Criminal charges are available to the government and will be undoubtably forthcoming.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
As long as they fill out the daily TPS cover sheets, they are within behavioral specifications according to company policy.
Seriously, private companies need to conform to the policy of their customer, the USA. Criminal charges are available to the government and will be undoubtably forthcoming.
Rumsfeld did say yesterday that they were assigned to military units and had US troops as their commanders. If they get everybody involved there will be alot of openings in the military.
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You know this all started from the military letting people run in tennis shoes during PT.
In other words disipline and just a general sense of toughness has gone down a bit it would seem.
We are getting too soft as a society and as an Army.
Ask yourslef this question.
Would this have happended under IKE in 1945?
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Originally posted by txmx
Ask yourslef this question.
Would this have happended under IKE in 1945?
Yes, similar stuff like this happened.
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Ike himself was rabidly anti-Nazi in the post-war period. He and Patton had a serious disagreement on using former Nazis in leadership positions and Patton lost his job over it, basically.
The difference between then and now is the cooperation between the Press and the military. Voluntary censorship, if you will.
Yes, I'm sure stuff far worse than this happened in Germany after the Allied occupation.
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after power will be transfered to Iraqi, should iraqi judge them for crimes in iraq ?
I dont mean this one case, but in generaly.
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I'm reasonably certain that after the transfer of power, there will be a "Status of Forces" agreement between the US military and the new Iraqi Civil Authority. That agreement will determine how crimes are tried and punishment meted out for actions that occur after the transfer of power.
Crimes from before the transfer will be handled by the US military since it is (was) the "authority" in power at the time of the incident.
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im looking forward to see sutch agreement.
well since US refused to belong to International Law, i expect they would like to have imunity there as well
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This is nothing new, btw. This is standard procedure for the US military and has been since about the end of WW2, IIRC.
Status-of-Forces Agreement [SOFA] (http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/sofa.htm)
Status-of-forces agreements are not basing or access agreements. Rather, they define the legal status of U.S. personnel and property in the territory of another nation. The purpose of such an agreement is to set forth rights and responsibilities between the United States and the host government on such matters as criminal and civil jurisdiction, the wearing of the uniform, the carrying of arms, tax and customs relief, entry and exit of personnel and property, and resolving damage claims.
Status-of-forces agreements generally come in three forms. These include administrative and technical staff status under the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Privileges, commonly referred to as A and T status; a “mini” status-of-forces agreement, often used for a short-term presence, such as an exercise; and a full-blown, permanent status-of-forces agreement. The appropriate arrangement is dependent upon the nature and duration of U.S. military activity within the host country, the maturity of our relationship with that country, and the prevailing political situation in the host nation. Specialists who work status-of-forces agreement issues within the Air Force, the office of the secretary of defense, and the department of state are available to help make this assessment and to assist in negotiating any necessary agreements.
The SOFA is usually an integral part of the overall military bases agreement that allows U.S. military forces to operate within the host country. Each SOFA is negotiated separately with the host country (although the United States has a multilateral SOFA with NATO members). Generally speaking, SOFAs have no standard points of differences; some, however, may deal with particular circumstances unique to particular country.
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Sorry but this needs to be done:
(http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/j/msnbc/Components/Video/040507/nn_shuster_soldier_040507.275w.jpg)
Lynndie England, 21, a rail worker's daughter, comes from a trailer park in Fort Ashby, West Virginia, which locals proudly call "a backwoods world".
[country twangy music]"SHE'S THE QUEEN OF MY DOUBLE WIDE"[/country twangy music]
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Smokin'! :aok
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Good Gad man she has a mouth like a bass!
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[country twangy music]"SHE'S THE QUEEN OF MY DOUBLE WIDE"[/country twangy music]
Ain't no way she's a bluegrass or a Hank fan. Probably is an urban wannabe and listens to rap.
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According to Grun's article, I doubt that there is a lot of rap being played in her hometown.