Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Tumor on May 08, 2004, 05:47:30 AM
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Here it is in black and white.
The proof is in the pudding - watch Rummy's testimony. Apparently he was more interested in launching an investigation and finding out exactly what happened upon learning of the "abuse" than calling a press conference.
A man doing his job without the spotlight - unthinkable.
The truth apparently makes no difference.. it's all about how much more hate you can spread.
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just a small correction Tumor... its in black and red if im not mistaken
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and the little fact that these abuses have been reported since last fall and Rummy did nothing until the pics came out.
Whoever told you that Rummy was hot on investigating it is pulling your leg. They sat on this for months.
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[GENEVA (May 6, 8:44 am ADT) - The international Red Cross said Thursday it repeatedly demanded that U.S. officials correct problems in Iraq's Abu Ghraib prison before recent revelations about the abuse of Iraqi inmates by American soldiers.
Spokeswoman Nada Doumani said she could not say the problems included "specifically" the abuse allegations made in the media in recent days. The U.S. authorities did fix some problems quickly and took longer to address other complaints, said Doumani, speaking from Amman, Jordan.
She declined to say whether the ICRC reports were the basis for the U.S. investigation begun in January after an American soldier reported prisoner abuses, but she noted that the reported abuses occurred last year - at a time when the ICRC was visiting and reporting on shortcomings at the prison.
Who's 'they' Strk? Looks like 'they' started an investigation in January.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Looks like 'they' started an investigation in January.
Yep.
Timeline of the abuse controversy (http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/05/07/abuse.timeline.ap/index.html)
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NO NO NO!!! No investigation. LIES!!!!
I just have to belive Rumsfeld personally rapedc the prisoners!!! YES YES he is evbil soooooo EVIL!!!!
YESSSSSSSS!!
Right strk?
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Originally posted by strk
and the little fact that these abuses have been reported since last fall and Rummy did nothing until the pics came out.
From the CNN Timeline:
January 13, 2004: Army Spc. Joseph M. Darby, an MP with the 800th at Abu Ghraib, first reports cases of abuse at the prison.
January 16: Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez orders a criminal investigation into reports of abuse at the prison by members of the brigade. The military also announces the investigation publicly
Three days between initial report and ordered investigation.
Did nothing?
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Originally posted by strk
and the little fact that these abuses have been reported since last fall and Rummy did nothing until the pics came out.
From the CNN Timeline:
January 13, 2004: Army Spc. Joseph M. Darby, an MP with the 800th at Abu Ghraib, first reports cases of abuse at the prison.
January 16: Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez orders a criminal investigation into reports of abuse at the prison by members of the brigade. The military also announces the investigation publicly
Three days between initial report and ordered investigation.
Did nothing?
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Who's 'they' Strk? Looks like 'they' started an investigation in January.
Looks like you are right. Do you have a link?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
NO NO NO!!! No investigation. LIES!!!!
I just have to belive Rumsfeld personally rapedc the prisoners!!! YES YES he is evbil soooooo EVIL!!!!
YESSSSSSSS!!
Right strk?
Having a gasm because I was mistaken? Don't you have anything better to do?
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Originally posted by Toad
From the CNN Timeline:
Three days between initial report and ordered investigation.
Did nothing?
That was not the first reported incident. So the Army investigated in January, but kept it under wraps with no charges until the pics come out? Is that how it went? Was anyone charged before the pics came out??
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Originally posted by strk
That was not the first reported incident. So the Army investigated in January, but kept it under wraps with no charges until the pics come out? Is that how it went? Was anyone charged before the pics came out??
Hey Strk:
Can't find the link I used anymore (a May 6 story is too old for yahoo) but Toad's CNN timeline story is pretty good.
By the way, has Ken Lay been charged yet? It's been longer than last January since he came to the radar screens.
Seems like with all the pictures they have enough evidence to get several convictions but I do not know all the intimate details of the prosecuter's case. Do you?
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Originally posted by strk
That was not the first reported incident. So the Army investigated in January, but kept it under wraps with no charges until the pics come out? Is that how it went? Was anyone charged before the pics came out??
What is the "first reported incident" then? Link, please. Might as well all start off on the same page.
In the case of Abu Ghraib, it appears to be the first report. Unless you have other documentation?
The investigation proceeded and two days after the investigation began, the leadership was removed. This act of suspension effectively ended their Army careers, btw. That seems fast.
January 18: A guard leader and a company commander at the prison are suspended from their duties, and Sanchez admonishes Brig. Gen. Janis Karpinski, who commanded the brigade
The investigation continues and six soldiers are charged about 3 months into the investigation. Notably, this is about a month BEFORE the pictures are shown to the public.
March 20: Six soldiers face charges stemming from alleged abuse at the prison. The military announces the beginning of possible court-martial proceedings......
April 28: CBS airs the photos, setting off an international outcry. Bush first learns about these photos from the television report, his aides say.
So, the answers to your questions are "no", "no" and "yes" respectively.
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BTW, what were the "authorities supposed to do? Lynch those resposible?
Like in the Wild West "good old days"? Sanchez should have gotten the first report, mounted up a posse, ridden down to Abu Ghraib and hung the six suspects from the nearest lamp post?
Or is there some "outrage timeline" that I don't know about that specifies exactly how long an investigation is supposed to take and 3 months (Jan 16 Investigation Initiated, March 20, six soldiers charged) is way too long?
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Opb Toad
Like in the Wild West "good old days"?
From one of my favorite movies:
Bean has just shot a man for shooting a picture of Lily Langtry
Judge Roy Bean: "Justifiable homicide."
Goes through the man's pockets
Judge Roy Bean: "I fine this man, uh, $50 for disturbing the peace and $10 for lying around."
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Originally posted by Toad
What is the "first reported incident" then? Link, please. Might as well all start off on the same page.
In the case of Abu Ghraib, it appears to be the first report. Unless you have other documentation?
The investigation proceeded and two days after the investigation began, the leadership was removed. This act of suspension effectively ended their Army careers, btw. That seems fast.
The investigation continues and six soldiers are charged about 3 months into the investigation. Notably, this is about a month BEFORE the pictures are shown to the public.
So, the answers to your questions are "no", "no" and "yes" respectively.
Wow!!!! DEFINITE cover up there Toad. Thanks for the heads up.... :D
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PULLING MY HAIR OUT AND BANGING MY HEAD ON THE DESK.
Do you idots realize how long some article 31 investigations take some times.
THE PEOPLE CHARGED HAVE RIGHTS! This is no different than back home. You investigate and file charges. Yes, the charges probably coincided with the pics being made public. This is to apease people like you saying WERE IS THE JUSTICE???????
These soldiers have rights....plain and simple. You investigate....you charge.....than you have trial. They did this BY THE BOOK.
All this crap about Rumsfeild resigning is just political crap
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I am amazed sometimes.
If there were abuses and they could have fixed the problems and prosecuted the individuals responsible without causing a major international incident What is the Problem? .
No one wants a ton of publicity, especially a big **** sandwich like this one if you can avoid it. What did you expect, for the authorities to run right out and say, 'Lookie at what we did!'.
An investigation was started and I am sure that people would have been relieved with or without the story being leaked. If they didn't then the whole thing would have come out eventually.
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yeah on today news has been report that some US soldiers already got rebuke :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Hey Strk:
Can't find the link I used anymore (a May 6 story is too old for yahoo) but Toad's CNN timeline story is pretty good.
By the way, has Ken Lay been charged yet? It's been longer than last January since he came to the radar screens.
Seems like with all the pictures they have enough evidence to get several convictions but I do not know all the intimate details of the prosecuter's case. Do you?
agreed - I saw the CNN story after I posted it.
And I why Ken Lay has not been indicted also. Now that the husband wife just entered their guilty pleas I think they are going to talk and maybe get Keny boy in the net. I hope so b/c he sure deserves it.
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Originally posted by Toad
What is the "first reported incident" then? Link, please. Might as well all start off on the same page.
In the case of Abu Ghraib, it appears to be the first report. Unless you have other documentation?
The investigation proceeded and two days after the investigation began, the leadership was removed. This act of suspension effectively ended their Army careers, btw. That seems fast.
The investigation continues and six soldiers are charged about 3 months into the investigation. Notably, this is about a month BEFORE the pictures are shown to the public.
So, the answers to your questions are "no", "no" and "yes" respectively.
Salvation Army concerns prompted Humans Rights Watch to notify Bremer with 2 letters in September iirc. If I see a link I will post.
But just think about it - there have been a few prisoner complaints flying under the radar - remember the british guy from gitmo?
And you are wrong about when they were charged. It was just last week and it was AFTER the pics became public
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I'll await your link. In the meantime I'll review the HRW website.
Jamal al-Harith? Has there been any verification or substantiation of his claims as yet? I can't find any, anywhere.
As to the timeline on charging the soldiers:
The CNN timeline has them charged on May 20, linked above.
The Washington Post has an article saying they were charged on May 20.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A11587-2004Mar20?language=printer
Islam Online has them charged on May 20.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-03/21/article09.shtml
MSNBC's Timeline has them charged on May 20 as well.
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/4855930/
There can be NO DOUBT that the photos were first made public on CBS “60 Minutes II" on April 28.
How much more do you need?
Six soldiers were charged BEFORE the photos were first aired on 60 minutes....... over a MONTH before the photos were aired.
Let's see YOUR "proof" that this was not how it happened.
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Timeline of Detainee Abuse Allegations and Responses (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/05/07/usint8556.htm)
That's from HRW itself. Nothing in there about letters in September from HRW. In fact, most of the entire timeline shows the US military out in front of HRW in policing their operation and punishing soldiers found to be abusing prisoners.
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So Toad, you're saying that all the photos have done is bring this to the public's attention? You're saying that rather than turning a blind eye, the military was already taking significant steps to prosecute offenders before the photos were shown on 60 minutes?
from Human Rights Watch Website you linked “Eight marine reservists face charges ranging from negligent homicide to making false statements in connection with the mistreatment of prisoners of war in Iraq.” Associated Press, October 19, 2003
Son of a gun, I guess you are right...
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February 6, 2003
* Newsday reports that Vincent Cannistraro, a former intelligence official, told reporters that, “Better intelligence…has come from a senior Al-Qaeda detainee who had been held in the U.S. base at Guantanamo, Cuba, and was ‘rendered to Egypt after refusing to cooperate. ‘They promptly tore his fingernails out and he started to tell things.’ ” (Newsday, February 6, 2003)
Yep that would do it i think.