Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on May 08, 2004, 10:40:56 PM
-
Just a heads up for the older dudes that realize they aren't bulletproof.
Due to a history of heart disease in the family, my older brother decided to get a heart scan at the beginning of April and scheduled an appointment. He had a work conflict and had to cancel. Before he could reschedule, he was chatting with a buddy that told him he had just gotten a heart and body scan at a different place for the same price my brother was going to pay for just a heart scan.
So, my brother reschedules at the dual scan/ same price place.
His heart scan turned out fine. His body scan showed a baseball size tumor on his right kidney.
He went into overdrive and due to some great connections he has through his college class, he got right on the problem. Diagnosed on April 6, the kidney was removed on April 26 after numerous other doctor visits and scans of various types.
The tumor was kidney cancer, clear cell. It had not yet penetrated the kidney membrane, so they feel they got it all and the other scans did not show any "spread" anywhere else.
The short story is, as we age, ship happens. A heart/body scan cost him about $500. In all probability, it added many years to his life and avoided an untimely, abrupt painful ending.
OK, now you know. Check it out, oldsters. Cheap insurance to my way of thinking.
Oh, your health insurance probably won't pay because these scans really aren't all that valuable, you know........ :rolleyesthingie:
-
Thanks for the info Toad. Hope your brother's gonna be OK. Looks like the body scan caught it in time.
A lot of people, especially men, tend to put checkups on the back burner, either out of distrust of doctors or through denial. Plus, all those tests are expensive and financially exhausting. Not to mention the disruption of one's routine, and the stress involved there.
I've heard married men live longer, probably because their wives make their husbands keep in shape and have regular checkups. Also, they don't tolerate lots of drinking and burning the candle at both ends.
See how lucky we unmarried guys are.:D
Les
-
Didn't mean to sound flippant Toad. Figured someone would have replied by now.
Anyway, yes it's a serious subject, and something everyone eventually has to cope with. I often weigh my decisions of things I've done in the past, that got me started on the road to perdition...compared to what might have been had I chosen another path. For me it was joining a High School fraternity at 16, and learning to drink and smoke pot. Never did acid or pills, and those things were very commonplace at almost every party. We had one member who od on something, and he almost died. That was back in the 70s, during the zenith of what had been spawned in the 60s. That time period was getting out of hand.
It was a complete change of direction for me. I had been attending a Christian school, but changed to public school because I wanted to be in the frat (next door neighbor was Sgt. at Arms and got me in.) Also, my brother had been in the same frat many years earlier...about 20 years earlier. He recently died of cirrossis of the liver at age 62. He was an alcoholic, but functional up 'til about the last 2 years of his life. He had a stressful job though.
I did start on a regimen of physical fitness by taking karate lessons, which was grueling and painful. But I stuck with it throughout HS and into college. I believe that was the physical "money in the bank" for me that lasted 25 years.
Then again, I was making deposits and not taking withdrawls so often as I do now. Wish I had the guts to get back into that, but I had a heart attack during a workout 4 years ago, and am just plain reluctant to go back. Think it was such a surprise to everyone, I waited 30 minutes for class to end before asking anyone to take me to the hospital, such was our self disipline. It was the only form of exercise I truly enjoyed, but at 46 man, I'm getting old too. It sucks.
I wonder sometimes though, if I had stayed in the Christian school how my life would have been. That school was pretty authoritarian, and to some degree, shut out worldly things such as going to social events (dances/sockhops), or listening to modern music, which they associated with leading to drinking, drug taking, and becoming a wastrel.
They may have been right, but seemed to me they were delivering and expecting a regimented education geared toward the ministry. Not mainstream. I wanted to learn worldly things. That education comes with a price.
Sorry for the long post and sentimental gibberish. You're spot on Toad. Thanks for reading.
Les
-
Bump for your health
-
we did bring home from hospital my grandfather 13 days ago, w/o stomach... he lost it due to cancer, he is 85 years old and he were b|tching on HC world cup, so his health is improving :D
dad is going under knife on wednesday with similary problem but on his back
:rolleyes:
ohh well.
-
Lada.
My boss, Bill Knapp said, "don't ever let those doctors cut on you." Don't ever let anyone near you with a knife.
Les
-
My Boss says, "Nothing heals like cold hard steel."
-
Are these MRI's?
I mean, just what kind of scan is this? If one was to inquire with their physician and mention this, what does yours refer to it as, and who performs these?
-
Sorry to hear about your brother's kidney loss. But it sounds as if the overall outcome is a much happier one than it could have been.
Advice taken! I'm approaching my own golden moment in December - might be a good time to start thinking about this stuff.
My dad had prostate problems for some years, but he was active in his life teaching music, and wouldn't make time to get it checked out. When he did finally go into hospital, it was found that the cancer had spread to his pancreas.
We'll never know if his life could have been prolonged by earlier diagnosis.
-
Originally posted by LePaul
Are these MRI's?
No, they are computed tomography (CT) scans, specifically helical CT (also called spiral CT).
This is most commonly recommended in particular people with certain risk factors. For example, it’s being evaluated for colorectal imaging in patients at risk for colorectal cancer.
Although it’s great that this worked out for Toad’s brother, in general this test is not recommended for screening low risk patients and has not shown to lead to beneficial intervention in this population. The problem is that, as with any diagnostic test, it is not 100% accurate and carries the risk of false-positives and false-negatives. Most studies suggest the risk of a false-postives far outweighs any benefits of earlier detection in a population in which the incidence of disease is very low.
Retail (direct-to-patient) marketing of these screening tests is increasingly common in the United States so you have to be careful about what you read. As always, it’s best to check with your doctor first.
-
Originally posted by myelo
No, they are computed tomography (CT) scans, specifically helical CT (also called spiral CT).
In other words, the guy lays on a table while machines whir and click over his hospital-gowned body? Where's the fun in that? Whatever happened to sexy nurses in revealing white uniforms that clung to the natural curves of their body, listening through stethoscopes, checking blood pressure, and telling the guy to turn his head an cough? :p
(http://www.lollipoplingerie.com/Merchant2/graphics/00000001/RIC2214.jpg)
Seriously though, just what is a "full body scan"? Sounds like a bunch of trumped-up snake oil technology to me. I did a physical 4 years ago (need to go in again, tho) and all the lady did was check my heart, my lungs, my blood pressure, and pulse at the major artery points (including pelvis and foot for circulatory flow), and a quick look at eyes, ears, throat. At least, that's all I remember her doing. When I woke up, she was buttoning her blouse! :eek:
-
One Example (http://www.bodyscanimaging.com/home.html)
This is just one example of a company that does these scans. They explain it pretty well. They have about a dozen sites around the country.
I've obviously got a different view of it than Myelo; I'd have to say his is somewhat typical of the medical profession. Generally, most doctors see no need and many of them will discount the tests as "false positives". However, there are additional tests that can be done for just about any "positive" that shows up and these will either confirm or invalidate the finding.
It seems to me that with full body scan pricing dropping below $500 now in many places that this is cheap insurance. An "office call" to a doctor in this area is nearing $100 and that's just the office call. Add in a chest X-ray and a blood test and you can hit $300 no sweat.
If it shows nothing, you're out $500. Let's see, back in AWGenie days I had some bills for two months of play that came to more than that.
OTOH, if it shows a baseball size tumor on your kidney or perhaps a 95% block of your Left Anterior Descending artery, it's worth WAY more than $500.
As an aside, with respect to false positives, did you know that the thallium stress treadmill heart tests are wrong 10% of the time? They will either show no problem when there is one or a problem where there is none in 1 out of ten cases. The "false positives" for a Heart Scan are in the 1-2% range. The Heart Scan is on the order of 80% cheaper than a thallium stress test.
As I said, make up your own mind. There is a chance it will show nothing and a chance it will show a "false positive". There's also a chance it'll show you "bad news" early enough to do something about it.
All for $500. Or less. Beet, you can walk in, flip out a credit card and get one done in 30 minutes or less at the next con most likely. For less than your hotel room will cost! ;)
-
Closest one up my way is Manhatten, not much in the NE
Its interesting, my family history is heart disease & strokes. I eat better than my grand parents did, etc etc...be interesting to have a scan and see how things appear.
Thanks for the lead
-
If you have a family history of heart problems, this may well be the cheapest thing you ever do for yourself.
I"ve got a good friend that's a retired cardiologist that is deeply involved in studying genetics and heart disease. This guy is SMART and he's working with even smarter guys. They are getting real close to identifying the genetic markers for coronary heart disease.
Suffice it to say, if the males in your family line have a history of heart disease, especially if it occurs before age 60, I think you'd be extremely smart to get this done. Even at a relatively young age, because you can keep the disc and do another check in 5 years and compare the progress of the calcification around your arteries.
If it's in the family history, you need to pay attention. Just had a friend bury one of his friends. Dead from a heart attack at age 33. Interestingly enough, there was a distinct family history of heart attacks in his father's line before age 50. With the tools, drugs and techniques available now, this doesn't have to be as bad as it is.
20 minutes and $500 isn't that much to "waste".
There's a lot of other outfits than Bodyscan..... check around
-
Toad, it’s not a matter of cost. It’s a matter of weighing the medical risks and benefits.
Let’s say the scan has a 5% false positive rate (which is pretty good) and the test is 100% sensitive (which it’s not, but it makes the math easier). Further, let’s say you are screening a population with a 0.2% rate of disease (close to the cancer rate in middle aged men).
If you test 500 guys, 26 will have a positive result: 25 false positives (5%) and 1 true positive (0.2% rate of disease). In other words a positive result has a 96% chance of being wrong (25 out of 26).
So 25 guys will get biopsies with the attendant risks -- not to mention the emotional stress -- for every 1 guy you find with real cancer. As an example, a kidney biopsy carries a 1 in 1000 risk of losing the kidney or even death; a pretty significant risk when there is a 96% chance you didn’t need the biopsy in the first place.
But…let’s change the rate of disease to 10%. Now when we test 500 guys we get 75 positives: the same 25 false positive but now 50 true positives. In this case a positive result has 67% chance of being right.
As you can see, with screening tests, the rate of disease is critical. That’s why it’s usually a bad idea to test everybody. Rather it’s better to recommend tests based on the risk of disease. For example, a chest CT might be a great idea for a 50 year-old guy who has smoked 2 packs of Lucky’s a day for 35 years. Probably not a good idea for a 35-year-old nonsmoker.
For some people, I think the scan is a great idea. For others it’s not. My point is to rely on your doctor who can consider your particular situation, including family history and other risk factors. What I don’t want people to do is rely on the companies that do these scans and are trying to sell the service to people that don’t necessarily need it.
-
What do you mean by false positive?
A non-malignant tumor? Or something that doesn't exist at all?
If you are talking about the latter case, wouldn't there be a follow up test of some sort that would confirm or deny the body scan's result? Something less intrusive than a biopsy.
For instance, in the case of a potential tumor on an organ such as the liver or pancreas, wouldn't an ultrasound be in order?
-
A false positive means the diagnosis of a disease that is not there.
It could be lots of things -- scar tissue from a previous problem, a non-cancer nodule, variation in normal anatomy or an outright mistake in reading the test.
On brain MRIs, they’re called “UBOs” -- unidentified bright objects. They’re very common.
For example, in one study 100 normal volunteers had a brain MRI. These images were then mixed with those from patients with pituitary tumors and read by radiologists. 10% of the normal people were incorrectly diagnosed with a pituitary tumor.
And sometimes yes, another test may be done. And based on those results, even more tests or treatments may be ordered. Ultimately this can lead to chain of events which results in ill-advised tests or treatments that cause avoidable adverse effects -- all initiated by an unnecessary test and patient patient/doctor anxiety. This is known as the cascade effect, or by the more technical term “whacking the tar baby.”
-
Your risk assumptions seem to revolve around invasive testing to confirm scan results. IE: needle biopsy or even surgical biopsy.
Using my brother as the example, there were NO invasive tests performed to verify the scan. There were several other scans, most of them with a radioactive component. CT's and PET's for example. The PET scan, in particular, totally confirmed the kidney cancer diagnosis; the tumor lit up like a spotlight due to the radioactive component injected.
So there are ways to check it out without any invasive testing.
Further, if you get a "baseline" scan an it showed a small pea sized growth on a kidney, you could always just "standby" and repeat the scan in 6 months or so. If there was no change, leave it alone. If it was the size of an egg.... well, it NEEDS checking.
I think as time goes by, these scans are going to be recognized for the valuable tool that they are. Because of the heart disease in my family, my sons are going to get baseline heart scans starting at age 25 and repeat every 3-5 years or as necessary. To me, it's really cheap insurance.
I feel the same about a body scan. Get the baseline and see if there's anything that needs watching. Repeat scan at a suitable time if there is something to watch.
As I said..... $500? You can't get cr*p done in the way of overall testing in a regular Doctor's office for $500.
But each to their own. For my family, it's been just about a miracle. The ability to non-invasively "see" a tumor before it metastasized into a fatal problem...... wow, we live in wonderful times.
-
I can't echo the idea of get checked when you can enough! I've been out on medical leave for about 6 months now due to kidney problems. In the process of checking for the pain source, doc decided to do a colonscopy. Didn't find the pain - but did remove 7 polyps, 2 of which would have been cancerous within a couple of years. Doc said they normally don't recommend colonscopy's until a man reaches 50. I'm only 45 and never would have made it to 50....
Get checked while you still have time!!!!