Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: airguard on May 10, 2004, 01:34:47 PM
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Cant belive it when Bush said this:
President Bush today praised embattled Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, saying he was doing "a superb job." Bush said the United States "will honor rule of law" in its investigation of abuse at Iraqi prisons. Meanwhile, the Army general who wrote a report critical of U.S. treatment of Iraqi prisoners will appear Tuesday before the Senate Armed Services Committee, sources say.
Well I lost my faith, rumsfeld covererd this up as he knew it already in January, and that suck.
Guess he tought it was slightly going to roll over and not beeing shown, well what do I know.
OK somone might say : It was terrorists so who cares.
If we bring ourselves on the same lowlife idiology as the terrorists we all have lost, we really dont have to and for sure dont need to.
Another thing is I can see that 1 (and only 1) will be standed prosecuted in Iraq ? WTF there is more than one ..... why should only 1 person be sacrified like that. Not only 1 person can do like we seen in the papers/news last days.
That is more than I can understand.
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Your info is faulty. There was no cover-up AFAIK. There will be many Courts-martial on this issue, and our system did what it was supposed to do.
All that being said I think it would be difficult to understate the mess these idiots (the guilty soldiers and officers) made.
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Raven sit next to the Raven.
hush hush freedom hater :D
orel
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well my info was from CNN, I just read it this evening.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Your info is faulty. There was no cover-up AFAIK. There will be many Courts-martial on this issue, and our system did what it was supposed to do.
actualy what was your system suppoused to do ?
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watch and learn lada. It won't be pretty but hopefully justise will come out the other end....
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I would like everyone to think back on all the scandals aired in public by other world powers over the past 50 years or so... anyone? Bueller?
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Originally posted by Udie
watch and learn lada. It won't be pretty but hopefully justise will come out the other end....
i do Udie and i already read that some soldiers already got rebuke .
:rolleyes:
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This whole "scandle" dumbfounds me. WERE IS THERE A SCANDLE?
These guys broke the rules.......they started an investigation......the appropriate people have been fired/replaced/charged
There was no cover up but rest assured the DOD does not like airing its dirty laundry for the world to see for obvious reasons.
What truely disgusts me is the poeple Making this into a scandle for no other than thier own political reasons and to further their agenda.
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Originally posted by lada
i do Udie and i already read that some soldiers already got rebuke .
:rolleyes:
Well ya know I read the day after we entered bagdad that we had found WMD ;) and then read it again several other times over the next few months. This thing has just started. American justice moves slow sometimes. It's usually ugly and stinks. BUT justice usually does come out the other end.
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LOL Udie ok
Scandal about this is fact that red cross pointed on this problems several times last year.
Nothing has change until pictures become available.
Attitude of US`s ministry of defence until it become public is Scandal.
Im not surprised that US army is fool of ill people, we got similary problems here even in most prestige units.
For example in past 2 years 4 or 5 soldiers and one psychologist were charged for abusing of younger male soldiers in President`s palace.
Simply older soldiers raped younger soldiers and when they went cry to psychologist, he raped them too. It happen instead of guarding president :D :D
We have kind of hot folk over here
:rofl
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
This whole "scandle" dumbfounds me. WERE IS THERE A SCANDLE?
We are there to "liberate" the people from a man that habitually used torture and degradation. It's hard to hold on to the mantle of righteousness while doing the same thing.
The we're investigating it, doesn't negate the fact that it has compromised our credibility.
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Originally posted by lada
LOL Udie ok
Scandal about this is fact that red cross pointed on this problems several times last year.
Nothing has change until pictures become available.
Attitude of US`s ministry of defence until it become public is Scandal.
Im not surprised that US army is fool of ill people, we got similary problems here even in most prestige units.
For example in past 2 years 4 or 5 soldiers and one psychologist were charged for abusing of younger male soldiers in President`s palace.
Simply older soldiers raped younger soldiers and when they went cry to psychologist, he raped them too. It happen instead of guarding president :D :D
We have kind of hot folk over here
:rofl
Well I don't think you got my poing. Point is what you hear in the media and truth are probably slightly out of phase. And I doubt very seriously that our military is full of "ill people" It's all voluntary and the best armed best trained military force in the history of the world. And it's NOT evil.
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Originally posted by Udie
And I doubt very seriously that our military is full of "ill people" It's all voluntary and the best armed best trained military force in the history of the world. And it's NOT evil.
I don't know Udie, some have accused me of being pretty sick, and I have my evil moments.
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well then we are DOOOMED :D
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Originally posted by lada
LOL Udie ok
Scandal about this is fact that red cross pointed on this problems several times last year.
Nothing has change until pictures become available.
wrong.....the investigation started long before any pics were made public
Attitude of US`s ministry of defence until it become public is Scandal.
wtf is a ministry of defence??? if you're freferring to the DOD they did everything by the book
For example in past 2 years 4 or 5 soldiers and one psychologist were charged for abusing of younger male soldiers in President`s palace.
Simply older soldiers raped younger soldiers and when they went cry to psychologist, he raped them too. It happen instead of guarding president
We have kind of hot folk over here
so .00008% of the soldiers over there did somthing they werent supposed to......I still dont see how this is a scandel.....and WTF are you talking about?????
We are there to "liberate" the people from a man that habitually used torture and degradation. It's hard to hold on to the mantle of righteousness while doing the same thing.
but we do not and have not "Habitually" tortured or degraded anyone. This is an isolated incident The difference is the people who did this will be punished. So yes mantle of righteousness still applies.
The we're investigating it, doesn't negate the fact that it has compromised our credibility.
Our credibility is damaged because the truth is not being reported and people are turning this into a "scandel" to further their political agendas
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
wrong.....the investigation started long before any pics were made public
post a link please
so .00008% of the soldiers over there did somthing they werent supposed to......I still dont see how this is a scandel.....and WTF are you talking about?????
no from 100 man 5 were abused, that makes it 5%
go and learn count before you make you look silly
but we do not and have not "Habitually" tortured or degraded anyone. This is an isolated incident The difference is the people who did this will be punished. So yes mantle of righteousness still applies.
wow so it never ever happen in your army before ?
or it were never public ?
I guess its pure luck it happen in Iraq and Afghanistan right now at once.
Our credibility is damaged because the truth is not being reported and people are turning this into a "scandel" to further their political agendas [/B]
your credibility can not go lower since horrible WMD has been so well hidden by SH
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
but we do not and have not "Habitually" tortured or degraded anyone. This is an isolated incident
You don't know this. In any case, it doesn't matter what you believe. What the people of Iraq believe is the issue.
We must prove that this is indeed an isolated incident and then we must ensure that Iraqi people believe that it will never happen again.
It's an uphill climb. As we used to say in the nav, "one 'aw-shucks' cancels many attaboys."
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I'll just throw this out there...
for the soldiers that may have executed or killed prisoners (there are currently a number of mysterious deaths being investigated as well), is the death penalty appropriate?
And no, I am not making any political statement, I am not in the military, so I am not up to speed on the UCoMJ.
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Seems like gunslinger(or others) dont understand how important this is ?
If USA did have no reason for WMD, (as it seems like now) then why go on the same godamed line Saddam Hussein did with his fellow citizens.
This only cause hate from the people youre trying to "help"
It will not work at all.
Gunslinger do you really wanna give away youre upper hand ?
It was known 4 months ago in your own department of defence that somthing was wrong, and I can only guess that it was the pictures they was talking about.
They shoulda done somthing about it months ago, not after the public seen it.
In my world its called ****ty leadership or just plain lies.
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I do understand. What you dont understand are people are blowing this issue out of the water just to persue thier own political agendas.
WTF should have been done differently?
Idealy this shouldnt have happend but truth be told there is NO scandel here. THE ARMY DID EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK ONCE THE ABUSE HAS BEEN REPORTED.
Yes I understand that this can cause a loss of credibility with the iraqis......WHAT ELSE CAN THE US DO?????
At least there is alegaitions and a trial....did they (iraq) have that befor? NO
Lada....go and learn to read befor you tell me to count.
I said SOLDIERS.....there's roughly 150,000 of them over there. If you look at the percentage that caused this mess its somthing around the number I gave you.
so .00008% of the soldiers over there did somthing they werent supposed to
didnt say anything about prisoners.
post a link....do a search but here you go
Jan. 6, 2004: The U.S. Army discharges three reservists and ordered them to forfeit two months' salary for abusing prisoners at a detention center in Iraq." — Associated Press, Jan. 6, 2004
Jan. 13, 2004: A soldier of the 800th Military Police Brigade at Abu Ghraib reports allegations through chain of command.
Jan. 14, 2004: Combined Joint Task Force-7 criminal investigation is initiated
Jan. 16, 2004: U.S. Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt holds briefing on criminal investigation. CENTCOM issues press release to publicly acknowledge the investigation.
Jan. 17, 2004: Brig. Gen. Janice Karpinski, commander of 800th Military Police Brigade, is formally admonished and suspended from her duties in writing by Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez regarding the "serious deficiencies in her Brigade." [Taguba Report, pg. 44]. Sanchez called the recent detainee abuse at Abu Ghraib the most recent example of poor leadership that "permeates the Brigade." — Taguba Report
Jan. 19, 2004: Sanchez requests senior level investigation of procedures at the prison.
Jan. 24, 2004: Gen. John Abizaid directs the Coalition Forces Land Component Command to conduct the investigation requested by Sanchez.
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/iraqi_prisoner_abuse_timeline-2.html
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I do understand. What you dont understand are people are blowing this issue out of the water just to persue thier own political agendas.
WTF should have been done differently?
Idealy this shouldnt have happend but truth be told there is NO scandel here. THE ARMY DID EVERYTHING BY THE BOOK ONCE THE ABUSE HAS BEEN REPORTED.
Yes I understand that this can cause a loss of credibility with the iraqis......WHAT ELSE CAN THE US DO?????
At least there is alegaitions and a trial....did they (iraq) have that befor? NO
Lada....go and learn to read befor you tell me to count.
I said SOLDIERS.....there's roughly 150,000 of them over there. If you look at the percentage that caused this mess its somthing around the number I gave you.
didnt say anything about prisoners.
post a link....do a search but here you go
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/World/iraqi_prisoner_abuse_timeline-2.html
That old saying about the forest and the trees comes to mind.
Maybe you just don't get it, or maybe you just don't want to get it.
It means f*** all who did what by the book, what the percentages are or the fact that the vast majority of U.S. and Coalition troops conduct themselves appropriately and within the law. All that matters is that a population has seen their occupiers beating and degrading their fellow citizens. They will not give a rats bellybutton that some 19 year reservist is put on trial....they will not give a rats bellybutton that GWB and Rumsfeld are sorry about it....they will quickly forget all the good that has been done when they recall the images of humiliation and torture.
When you understand that the "truth" and the "facts" and saying "I'm sorry" mean f*** all in winning hearts and minds you will appreciate what a disaster this could be.
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I love it when foreigners try to tell me how my country should operate.
Sorry, but if you don't have a vested interest then your opinion means squat to me.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
I love it when foreigners try to tell me how my country should operate.
Sorry, but if you don't have a vested interest then your opinion means squat to me.
youre just a bit tit arrogant ?
Operating in the world (as a police) can give you big trubble if you dont act like it, but if you do you can do alot.
If the US/UK cant get the Iraqi's on their side they have a huge problem.
you seems to forget about a huge point here.
It is not that easy as you say : telling you how your country should operate, and for sure nobody like what they seen so far.
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IMO Yes, very happy with him and this admin, hoping for 4 more years of the same - thanks for asking :)
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
I love it when foreigners try to tell me how my country should operate.
Sorry, but if you don't have a vested interest then your opinion means squat to me.
Let's be clear about a couple of things:
1. A prison in Iraq is not "your country".
2. I do have a vested interest, as do a number of other foreigners whose citizens serve in Iraq, Afghanistan and other hot spots. To the extent that what has happened makes life more difficult or dangerous for Canadian soldiers in Kabul.
You might remember Kabul....Afghanistan...fighti ng the war on terror before getting distracted elsewhere, where at least these "foreigners" contributed 2,000 + troops to free up U.S. forces for the little adventure in the Gulf.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
I love it when foreigners try to tell me how my country should operate.
Sorry, but if you don't have a vested interest then your opinion means squat to me.
If ur country tries to play world police than we should have the right to tell you our opinion about it.
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I love this attitude.....even though this is not a widespread problem....even though this was reported to the press and an ivestigation started.....even though prisoner abuse is not uncommon on the battlefield or conflict zone....even though these iraqi prisoners are all still alive and breathing....even though those that committed evil acts will be punished...........ITS STILL A SCANDEL
I guess according to some on this baord we should just pack up and leave Iraq to anoarchy cause a few guys were abused.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I love this attitude.....even though this is not a widespread problem....even though this was reported to the press and an ivestigation started.....even though prisoner abuse is not uncommon on the battlefield or conflict zone....even though these iraqi prisoners are all still alive and breathing....even though those that committed evil acts will be punished...........ITS STILL A SCANDEL
I guess according to some on this baord we should just pack up and leave Iraq to anoarchy cause a few guys were abused.
I'm not sure if u really realize the importance. There are many islamic people that look at the USA as an occupying force. They dont see the USA as a liberator and now this. Per example for a moslem to undress oneself in front of a woman is a very bad sin. No everyone can see it in the TV how the occupying forces not only put the prisoners down but rather show no respect for the whole religion and its not a matter of a few idiotic soldiers. Its seams to be a matter of ur whole government (the british included).
Its to late to leave Iraq but a better planned after war era would have prevented ur country from many problems. The USA is acting like a like a bull in a china shop.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
...some have accused me of being pretty sick, and I have my evil moments.
Sometimes getting into a good, old fashion fist-fight was really satisfying; that adrenaline rush when you really did taste blood in your mouth was better than any drugs.
I OD'd once (2vs1) and ended up to hospital with crushed shoulder (clavicula); that was quite crappy trip :D
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Originally posted by Duedel
I'm not sure if u really realize the importance. There are many islamic people that look at the USA as an occupying force. They dont see the USA as a liberator and now this. Per example for a moslem to undress oneself in front of a woman is a very bad sin. No everyone can see it in the TV how the occupying forces not only put the prisoners down but rather show no respect for the whole religion and its not a matter of a few idiotic soldiers. Its seams to be a matter of ur whole government (the british included).
Its to late to leave Iraq but a better planned after war era would have prevented ur country from many problems. The USA is acting like a like a bull in a china shop.
SO what would you recommend the US do about the current situation. I fully realize the muslum view of the US. That's a cutlural veiw and and the sooner people realize they arnt going to change it the better the world is going to be.
BTW I saw a guy on TV levitate himself once over the grand canyon. I also saw a guy in a spider costume that shot webs from his arms and swung from buildings.
Let me guess lets just apease all the terrorists in the world all at once from some UN slush fund. Do you think that's going to stop terrorism?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
SO what would you recommend the US do about the current situation. I fully realize the muslum view of the US. That's a cutlural veiw and and the sooner people realize they arnt going to change it the better the world is going to be.
BTW I saw a guy on TV levitate himself once over the grand canyon. I also saw a guy in a spider costume that shot webs from his arms and swung from buildings.
Let me guess lets just apease all the terrorists in the world all at once from some UN slush fund. Do you think that's going to stop terrorism?
Very interesting and very intellectual post. I really was asking me for a ms if i should ignore the idiotic part of ur post (thus the last 2 paragraphs) and give u an honest answer but i guess it would be forlorn hope.
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Just saw on the news: "Palestinians vow revenge for abuse of Iraqi prisoners"
I don't thing those prisoners should have been "abused" even if they did blow up woman and children.
But does anyone else see the irony in this. These same terrists that kidnap people....blow themselves up in crowded markets.....slit journalist's throats are complaining about this
All this goes to show for me is that the US is not perfect. The US has done alot of good things in Iraq:
Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
Those that commited vile acts will be punished. What more does anyone want.....this is what I dont understand
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Just saw on the news: "Palestinians vow revenge for abuse of Iraqi prisoners"
I don't thing those prisoners should have been "abused" even if they did blow up woman and children.
But does anyone else see the irony in this. These same terrists that kidnap people....blow themselves up in crowded markets.....slit journalist's throats are complaining about this
All this goes to show for me is that the US is not perfect. The US has done alot of good things in Iraq:
Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
Those that commited vile acts will be punished. What more does anyone want.....this is what I dont understand
Does not take much for all this to go down the drain dosn't it?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Just saw on the news: "Palestinians vow revenge for abuse of Iraqi prisoners"
I don't thing those prisoners should have been "abused" even if they did blow up woman and children.
But does anyone else see the irony in this. These same terrists that kidnap people....blow themselves up in crowded markets.....slit journalist's throats are complaining about this
All this goes to show for me is that the US is not perfect. The US has done alot of good things in Iraq:
Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
Those that commited vile acts will be punished. What more does anyone want.....this is what I dont understand
They are complaining about it, if that's the right word, because the United States gave them a propaganda victory on a silver platter.
As to your list of good achievements, they are all, in fact, very good and I commend the U.S. for doing such good things in a very poor and desperate country. What you don't understand, or fail to grasp, or just don't get, is that you don't need to convince your fellow Americans of the good that is being done, you need to convince the Muslim world.
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Sorry...double posted.
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Originally posted by MJHerman
They are complaining about it, if that's the right word, because the United States gave them a propaganda victory on a silver platter.
As to your list of good achievements, they are all, in fact, very good and I commend the U.S. for doing such good things in a very poor and desperate country. What you don't understand, or fail to grasp, or just don't get, is that you don't need to convince your fellow Americans of the good that is being done, you need to convince the Muslim world.
And in the muslim world they really do not care about things like education.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
And in the muslim world they really do not care about things like education.
And the source for such a generalization is?
Does that mean that their are no educated Muslims? Do the doctors, lawyers and businesspeople throughout the Muslim world obtain their degrees from Crackerjack boxes?
How about Muslims who reside in North America? Do they not care about education? Or are they not part of "the muslim world"?
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The really silly part is, we are treating the Al Quada and Taliban guys at Guantanamo better than we treated these Iraqis.
AND these Iraqis are NOT the guys who are setting bombs and flying planes into buildings. In some cases they are in for stealing a car or looting a store.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
And in the muslim world they really do not care about things like education.
I would say "Terrorists" don't care much about education rather than muslims
Terrorists (the majority just happend to be musims) whould just as soon blow up a school built by American soldiers filled with children.
AGAIN people say I dont get it but I DO! This is not a scandel. I will say this in plain english. THIS IS BEING BLOWN OUT OF PORPORTION BY LIBRALS AND AMERICA HATERS TO UNDERMINE THE BUSH ADMIN AND THE EFFORTS IN IRAQ. I have not seen or heard were these guys were put into excrutiating pain or killed. I've heard of isolated incidents.....but more or less these guys were humiliated. The worst crime here is that they alloud a camera in a prison were interrogations were taking place.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger I have not seen or heard were these guys were put into excrutiating pain or killed. I've heard of isolated incidents.....but more or less these guys were humiliated. The worst crime here is that they alloud a camera in a prison were interrogations were taking place. [/B]
Are you ignoring the news? There have been murders, and red cross has been saying it was common place.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Are you ignoring the news? There have been murders, and red cross has been saying it was common place.
SHOW ME! I've seen one report of a prisoner dieing in custody....other than that I dont see this as commonplace.
I'd be just slightly more outraged if this had happend to everday citizens off the street....I veiw these people as prisoners that have information. I little force....sure. I dont agree w/ what I saw in the pictures.....But I dont think this is a scandle.
If this had not been investigated.....SURE
If this had been covered up.............SURE
If there had been wide spread abuse torture and murder.....sure
I saw a coupld of naked guys getting mistreaded....and infront of a woman. This aint right but its not a scandle.
The difference between us and The former regeim is we have rules. We follow them ore pay the conciquences. That's how things work. Soldiers broke the rules. The army announced an investigations. People have been charged and questions LONG BEFOR ANY OF US SAW ANY OF THESE PICTURES
This is not a scandle.....this is librals and terrorists using this to further their political agenda.
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Your arguing bud to people that aren't going to change. This board is full of em.
Lib's and Muslims want an apology...I say NO...They didn't apologize for 4 dead americans being dragged and torn apart after being burned alive. No apologies.
I don't agree with what was done with the Iraqi prisoners. It's beneath the U.S. Armed forces as a whole and they perps. should be tried to the full letter of the UCMJ and Civilian law.
Your exactly correct IMO about this is purely blown up for political gain. IF ANYONE has doubts about that then just watch CSPAN while they were questioning Rummy.
Hillary Clinton , Ted "Hiccup" Kennedy , Robert Byrd , all 3 were purly trying to show rummy incompetant. They are using this for political gain and NOTHING else. Hillary Clinton is one of the Biggest liars I have ever heard.
She asked Rummy if he thought he could still do his job. He answered with a resounding yes. At the press media after the hearings she said he said he wasn't sure. Thats NOT what he said at ALL. SH is just a friggin liar.
Robert Byrd made the statement that Rummy was to blame and he should resign...as did Kennedy and a few others. Lying hypocritical pompus tulips all of them.
I have had enuff of liberal morons that skirt issues and turn this into a purely political event to further their agenda.
And before I go on..there are Republicans that are no better.
There is a young Senator from Tennesee and I can't think of his name at this moment , whom I may add is a DEM. who was on Fox news this morning. The guy was a class act. No stone throwing. No remarks agaisnt Repubs. or Dems.. Just honest answers to some good questions with good intentions for this country and the war. I found him intriuging. (sp)
This WHOLE thing is just like you say..BLOWN UP FOR POLITICAL GAIN.
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I SAW THAT.....Your talking about Ford. He seemed like a really good guy. Smart and educated about the situation.
I have to ask some of these librals. What's more important....protecting the troops in Iraq and Americans around the world......or beating bush
I'm not just being partisin here there are republicans hopping on this wagon as well.
If the Dems. put up a candiate that could do more than just "beat Bush" I'd consider voting for him/her.
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Yep...that was him...Dang guy was cool...Now HE I may could get behind. I'm a bush guy...My Wife and I both are. But , if I thought there was someone out there that would do a better job then I would consider them.
Bush is and has done a great job IMO. Kerry offers me no resfulnees when it comes to thinking he would do well by this country. He seems much the contrary. He reminds me a bit of Hillary. The truth is what I want it to be. He is not an honest person.
I relly like Fred Thompson from Tennesee as well when he was a senator. Down to earth kind of guy.
WHERE ARE THOSE GUYS WHEN WE NEED EM?
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There is a difference between cruel punishment and torture.
Why is that those who are crying the most over cruel punishment cried the least about the torture Sadaam was committing? If burying people alive isnt a form of torture I dont know what is.
These guys are prisoners. They may have information that can be vital to the war effort. I dont think they are just gonna up and tell us everything we need to know by offering them donuts and coffee. They are gonna need a lil persuasion. They need to be shown that if they do good and answer all questions without defiance the cruel punishment will stop. Thay are not getting gassed or beat within 2 inches of their life. yet.
In all honesty they should be treated the same way they would treat our soldiers. Even with whats surfaced in the media at this point in time they are still being treated better than our guys would be treated.
Is Rumsfeld doing a good job? I think so. The man has to account for more information than any one person can inturprate in one day. Why should he be held accountable if there was a breakdown in the chain before him? You cant solve a problem that you dont know about. Now if he did know and delagted to someone else in my mind he still took action to fix the problem. Out of all the things he has to do I cant see him stopping everything he is ding to focus on one problem. Thats what the subordinates are for.
He's one man with a very big plate of food that cant all be eaten in one day.
-
Exactly.....Thanks wolf.
The same people that are crying right now are completly silent about: The former iraqi regiem, Iran, N. Korea, China, Most African nations, Syria, Ect.
The list goes on and on.....What's defined as torture to some people would look at these prisoners tratment as exemplary
EDIT:
These prisoners treatment may not meet American standards BUT that IS/HAS been delt with. I dont see what all the CONTINUING fuss is about
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
The same people that are crying right now are completly silent about: The former iraqi regiem, Iran, N. Korea, China, Most African nations, Syria, Ect.
And the people who were crying about the former Iraqi regime were completely silent about Iran, N. Korea, China, Most African nations, Syria, Ect.
There's a point to be made here, but I can't be arsed to figure out what it is.
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What has happened to unarmed flexcuffed iraqi detainees, in their own country, at the hands of my fellow americans -is extremely regrettable and shamefull to the hilt. In my opinion this action has threatened the mission far more than the militant insurgents ever could have hoped to do. Might as well pack it up and bring the show home if this crap doesnt get fixed yesterday.
Rummy did a fabulous job after 9/11 and up to and during the opening drive into iraq but his handling of affairs in the occupation has been dismal and getting worse. Yes, it is now an occupation, and although not necessarily a bad thing, when the people want and need a stabilizing occupation to gather themselves up with, what we have become is unwanted and detested and after looking at too many photos I dont blame them.
I personally think rummer should consider very seriously resigning.
Very seriously.
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(http://www.onlinewahn.de/rumsfeld.jpg)
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I think we should wait till June 30th. Give Iraq back to Iraqies which has allways been Americas mission in the first place.
Do you really think IRAQI Oil is gonna make a difference in the world market or our price at the pump.
Do you really think we want to stay their.
Do you really think that Iraq is worse off now.....at least now they have the freedom to say how much they like/disslike somthing w/o having to be ferried off to a torture chamber without ever being seen again.
All of THOSE iraqi prisoners are still breathing.
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
All this goes to show for me is that the US is not perfect. The US has done alot of good things in Iraq:
Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
* School attendance is up 80% from levels before the war.
* Over 1,500 schools have been renovated and rid of the weapons stored there so education can occur.
* The port of Uhm Qasar was renovated so grain can be off-loaded from ships faster.
* The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
* Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time ever in Iraq.
* The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
* 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
* Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
* Sewer and water lines are installed in every major city.
* Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
* Over 100,000 Iraqi civil defense police are securing the country.
* Over 80,000 Iraqi soldiers are patrolling the streets side by side with US soldiers.
* Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever
* Students are taught field sanitation and hand washing techniques to prevent the spread of germs.
* An interim constitution has been signed.
* Girls are allowed to attend school.
* Textbooks that don't mention Saddam are in the schools for the first time in 30 years.
"While the email appears to provide some truthful information, it is replete with misinformation. I don't have time to check each representation in the email, but here's an overview:
- Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
This is interesting. A lot of kids have been immunized in Iraq. In fact, last year the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) "25 million doses of vaccines to Iraq to help prevent the spread of polio, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, measles, and tuberculosis -- considered the main killers of children in developing countries."- At the time, UNICEF spokesman Gordon Weiss explained that the children of Iraq would need several stages of repeated immunizations for the immunizations to be effective:
"Iraq is in a particularly delicate stage at the moment -- postwar, with a lot of the health system having broken down and a lot of the water systems having broken down, as well. So children are more than ever this year vulnerable to water-borne diseases. Usually you don't vaccinate just once, you vaccinate a number of times in order to have the vaccinations work."
Here's what the Fact Sheet says:
"USAID has partnered with UNICEF, the World Health Organization (WHO) and Abt Associates to support health program in Iraq. Since the end of the war, USAID has vaccinated three million Iraqi children under the age of five, administered tetanus vaccine to more than 700,000 pregnant women, and by April 30, 2004 the USAID mission will have provided updated vaccinations to 90 percent of pregnant women and children under five years of age."
Hmmm. UNICEF said that 3 1/2 million Iraqi children were vaccinated last year. Does this mean that the vaccination program is not being pursued as much as last year? I don't know.
I also don't know where the 400,000 number came from. Last year, Iraq had approximately 4.2 million children in Iraq under the age of five. If fewer than 10% of young Iraqi children have up-to-date immunizations out of the millions who have been on an immunization schedule and are exposed, that would seem to be a serious failure.
That being said, hundred of thousands of immunized children has got to be a good thing.
- The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
Nonsense. First, there's nothing in the Fact Sheet about oil. Iraq is presently exporting approximately 1.9 million barrels of oil a day, or under 60 million barrels per month. And that's going to be difficult to maintain. You probably already know that insurgent attacks have been limiting the exports.- In August -- the supposed 2 billion barrel month -- Iraq was expecting to export fewer than 1.2 million barrels a day, about 37 million barrels for the month.
- Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.
Here's what the Fact Sheet says:
"Iraq has 13 major wastewater facilities. Baghdad's three facilities are currently inoperable and comprise three quarters of the nation's sewage treatment capacity. Raw waste flows directly into the Tigris River. In the rest of the country, most wastewater treatment facilities were only partly operational before the conflict, and a shortage of electricity, parts, and chemicals has exacerbated the situation and only a few wastewater treatment plants are operational. Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities operate at about 65 percent of the pre-war level of three billion liters a day."
Water does appear to be getting to a lot more people. But, apparently, at a price. A witness from Basra last month claimed:
"The [water] plant seems to be working well . . . This plant is up and going and provides water for a huge number of people. Someone is constructing a new plant to expand so that there is drinking water. I have not met anyone here yet despite the poverty who is not buying drinking water."
- The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
Not true. According to the Fact Sheet, on March 11, 2004, power peaked at approximately 92% of "the pre-conflict generating level". ABC reports that power generation is off since last October and is averaging somewhere around pre-conflict generation.
- 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
Not true. The Fact Sheet provides no information about this. But, the Washington Post on March 5, 2004 reported
"Health Minister Khudair Fadhil Abbas said about 90 percent of the hospitals and clinics have been brought back to the same poor conditions as before the war but that the others will take more time to reach even that low level."
Here are the first few paragraphs from the article:
"The stout woman, covered from head to toe in a black abaya, shuffled into the crowded hospital. She went straight to the emergency room and opened her robe to reveal a tiny baby wrapped in fuzzy blankets. The boy had been born prematurely, and the family was afraid he was going to die.
Uday Abdul Ridha took a quick look and shook his head. The physician put his hands on the woman's shoulders in sympathy, but his words were blunt. "I'm sorry," he said. "We cannot help you. We don't have an incubator, and even if we did, we are short on oxygen. Please try another hospital."
Scenes like this one at the Pediatric Teaching Hospital in Baghdad's Iskan neighborhood have become common in Iraq in recent months, as the health care system has been hit by a critical shortage of basic medications and equipment. Babies die of simple infections because they can't get the proper antibiotics. Surgeries are delayed because there is no oxygen. And patients in critical condition are turned away because there isn't enough equipment."
- Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
False. In June, 2003, US authorities put a halt to local elections. We installed mayors and administrators of our choosing.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
I don't know how many Iraqi police are on duty, given widespread desertions.- But, we know how many police are in the New York Police Department -- 39,110.
- According to the 2000 Census, NY City had a population of more than 8 million and covered an area of 320 square miles.
- According to 1993 estimates, the population of Iraq is about 19,435,000.
- Iraq is about the size of California, approximately 171,000 square miles.
Though New York, like any other big city, can be dangerous at times, armed insurgents aren't blowing people up daily. New York has about 1 police officer for every 205 residents. Iraq -- which does have armed insurgents blowing people up daily -- has about 1 police officer for every 324 citizens.
- Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
Not true. The Fact Sheet says that before we invaded 1.2 million Iraqis had "subscribed to landline telephone service." As of March 9, 2004, "104,680 subscribers to the Iraqi landline phone network were reconnected." Repairs have reconnected some form of telephone service between Baghdad and 20 other cities.
- Girls are allowed to attend school.
True, but not because of the invasion. Girls were allowed to attend school during Saddam's rule. Between 1997-2000 82% as many girls attended primary school as did boys. 62% as many girls attended high school as did boys, during the same period.
The email is not informative, but disinformation. It's propaganda. While he did not cite any particular rule, Lt. Col. Hapgood said that members of the force are not to take a politically partisan stance in any communications they use in which they identify themselves as members of the force. Lt. Col. Hapgood, in essence, also said that it was improper for Sgt. Reynolds to attack Senator Kerry in his email.
Thanks to Andrew Lazarus for his comment at dailyKos- for some fact checking leads.
- "
http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html
-
We can't be bothered with facts. We're winning their hearts and minds!
-
I just try to keep the big picture in mind. Those responsible for abuse of prisoners must be punished to the maximum extent.
I don't believe that the US armed forces as a whole are corrupt, but it does sicken me that these bad apples have made life much, much more dangerous for all of the others serving in Iraq and abroad. They commited crimes that will endanger American lives, as well as ruin the lives of those they have subjected to this disgusting crime.
On the overall view, I believe Iraq will be a better place with a promising future as a result of US and allied action.
-
Dishonor for the whole unit (http://washingtontimes.com/national/20040510-122707-7878r.htm)
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
"While the email appears to provide some truthful information, it is replete with misinformation. I don't have time to check each representation in the email, but here's an overview:
- Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
This is interesting. A lot of kids have been immunized in Iraq. In fact, last year the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) "25 million doses of vaccines to Iraq to help prevent the spread of polio, tetanus, diphtheria, pertussis, measles, and tuberculosis -- considered the main killers of children in developing countries."- At the time, UNICEF spokesman Gordon Weiss explained that the children of Iraq would need several stages of repeated immunizations for the immunizations to be effective:
"Iraq is in a particularly delicate stage at the moment -- postwar, with a lot of the health system having broken down and a lot of the water systems having broken down, as well. So children are more than ever this year vulnerable to water-borne diseases. Usually you don't vaccinate just once, you vaccinate a number of times in order to have the vaccinations work."
Here's what the Fact Sheet says:
"USAID has partnered with UNICEF, the World Health Organization (WHO) and Abt Associates to support health program in Iraq. Since the end of the war, USAID has vaccinated three million Iraqi children under the age of five, administered tetanus vaccine to more than 700,000 pregnant women, and by April 30, 2004 the USAID mission will have provided updated vaccinations to 90 percent of pregnant women and children under five years of age."
Hmmm. UNICEF said that 3 1/2 million Iraqi children were vaccinated last year. Does this mean that the vaccination program is not being pursued as much as last year? I don't know.
I also don't know where the 400,000 number came from. Last year, Iraq had approximately 4.2 million children in Iraq under the age of five. If fewer than 10% of young Iraqi children have up-to-date immunizations out of the millions who have been on an immunization schedule and are exposed, that would seem to be a serious failure.
That being said, hundred of thousands of immunized children has got to be a good thing.
- The country had its first 2 billion barrel export of oil in August.
Nonsense. First, there's nothing in the Fact Sheet about oil. Iraq is presently exporting approximately 1.9 million barrels of oil a day, or under 60 million barrels per month. And that's going to be difficult to maintain. You probably already know that insurgent attacks have been limiting the exports.- In August -- the supposed 2 billion barrel month -- Iraq was expecting to export fewer than 1.2 million barrels a day, about 37 million barrels for the month.
- Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.
Here's what the Fact Sheet says:
"Iraq has 13 major wastewater facilities. Baghdad's three facilities are currently inoperable and comprise three quarters of the nation's sewage treatment capacity. Raw waste flows directly into the Tigris River. In the rest of the country, most wastewater treatment facilities were only partly operational before the conflict, and a shortage of electricity, parts, and chemicals has exacerbated the situation and only a few wastewater treatment plants are operational. Iraq's 140 major water treatment facilities operate at about 65 percent of the pre-war level of three billion liters a day."
Water does appear to be getting to a lot more people. But, apparently, at a price. A witness from Basra last month claimed:
"The [water] plant seems to be working well . . . This plant is up and going and provides water for a huge number of people. Someone is constructing a new plant to expand so that there is drinking water. I have not met anyone here yet despite the poverty who is not buying drinking water."
- The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
Not true. According to the Fact Sheet, on March 11, 2004, power peaked at approximately 92% of "the pre-conflict generating level". ABC reports that power generation is off since last October and is averaging somewhere around pre-conflict generation.
- 100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
Not true. The Fact Sheet provides no information about this. But, the Washington Post on March 5, 2004 reported
"Health Minister Khudair Fadhil Abbas said about 90 percent of the hospitals and clinics have been brought back to the same poor conditions as before the war but that the others will take more time to reach even that low level."
Here are the first few paragraphs from the article:
"The stout woman, covered from head to toe in a black abaya, shuffled into the crowded hospital. She went straight to the emergency room and opened her robe to reveal a tiny baby wrapped in fuzzy blankets. The boy had been born prematurely, and the family was afraid he was going to die.
Uday Abdul Ridha took a quick look and shook his head. The physician put his hands on the woman's shoulders in sympathy, but his words were blunt. "I'm sorry," he said. "We cannot help you. We don't have an incubator, and even if we did, we are short on oxygen. Please try another hospital."
Scenes like this one at the Pediatric Teaching Hospital in Baghdad's Iskan neighborhood have become common in Iraq in recent months, as the health care system has been hit by a critical shortage of basic medications and equipment. Babies die of simple infections because they can't get the proper antibiotics. Surgeries are delayed because there is no oxygen. And patients in critical condition are turned away because there isn't enough equipment."
- Elections are taking place in every major city, and city councils are in place.
False. In June, 2003, US authorities put a halt to local elections. We installed mayors and administrators of our choosing.
-Over 60,000 police are patrolling the streets.
I don't know how many Iraqi police are on duty, given widespread desertions.- But, we know how many police are in the New York Police Department -- 39,110.
- According to the 2000 Census, NY City had a population of more than 8 million and covered an area of 320 square miles.
- According to 1993 estimates, the population of Iraq is about 19,435,000.
- Iraq is about the size of California, approximately 171,000 square miles.
Though New York, like any other big city, can be dangerous at times, armed insurgents aren't blowing people up daily. New York has about 1 police officer for every 205 residents. Iraq -- which does have armed insurgents blowing people up daily -- has about 1 police officer for every 324 citizens.
- Over 400,000 people have telephones for the first time ever.
Not true. The Fact Sheet says that before we invaded 1.2 million Iraqis had "subscribed to landline telephone service." As of March 9, 2004, "104,680 subscribers to the Iraqi landline phone network were reconnected." Repairs have reconnected some form of telephone service between Baghdad and 20 other cities.
- Girls are allowed to attend school.
True, but not because of the invasion. Girls were allowed to attend school during Saddam's rule. Between 1997-2000 82% as many girls attended primary school as did boys. 62% as many girls attended high school as did boys, during the same period.
The email is not informative, but disinformation. It's propaganda. While he did not cite any particular rule, Lt. Col. Hapgood said that members of the force are not to take a politically partisan stance in any communications they use in which they identify themselves as members of the force. Lt. Col. Hapgood, in essence, also said that it was improper for Sgt. Reynolds to attack Senator Kerry in his email.
Thanks to Andrew Lazarus for his comment at dailyKos- for some fact checking leads.
- "
http://www.orwelliantimes.com/2004/04/26.html
this sounds like propeganda to me. Got any facts to prove its true
Hell it almost sounds like they should go back to torture chambers and mass graves. Is there any turth to this "fact sheet"
-
How to lose a war....it's going to be a great book in a couple of years.
-
Its a book your well versed in.
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
I think we should wait till June 30th. Give Iraq back to Iraqies which has allways been Americas mission in the first place.
Do you really think IRAQI Oil is gonna make a difference in the world market or our price at the pump.
Do you really think we want to stay their.
Do you really think that Iraq is worse off now.....at least now they have the freedom to say how much they like/disslike somthing w/o having to be ferried off to a torture chamber without ever being seen again.
All of THOSE iraqi prisoners are still breathing.
of the 25 pows that have died in the prisons, 2 have been deemed homocides, and 10 more are under investigation.
-
Rumsfeld knew it was bad news and tried to keep it covered up even as it seems from Bush. If the press hadn't got hold of the story doubt Bush ever would of been told or congree and that the abuse would still be going on at that level or more to this day.
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
this sounds like propeganda to me. Got any facts to prove its true
Hell it almost sounds like they should go back to torture chambers and mass graves. Is there any turth to this "fact sheet"
LOL! Oh that's rich, you post a bunch of unsubstatiated BS and ask if there are any facts to back up the rubuttal. Every statement is already sourced and the sources are specified.
The "fact sheet" referred to is the very same USAID "fact sheet" that Sgt. Reynolds claims to have used as a source for the information you posted. Basically you are now calling into question the validity of the source of the very information that you yourself posted. Sweet irony.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Its a book your well versed in.
Careful Yeager....I might have to resort to an open discussion on the SE Asia games 1965 to 1973 and how to be humiliated by short people in black pajama's.
-
by Gunslinger,
"Do you really think IRAQI Oil is gonna make a difference in the world market or our price at the pump."
Wouldn't hold my breath on that one. Be a long time before they can start shipping any oil in quantaties to make a difference on the world market since they keep on blowing up the pipe lines and scaring off all the civilian workers.
Funny enough Operation Iraqi Freedom was going to be Operation Iraqi Liberation until some think tank brain at the planning stage realised that abreviated to OIL. :lol
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by Yeager
Its a book your well versed in.
Britain is well versed at losing wars? :lol
...-Gixer
-
Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Careful Yeager....I might have to resort to an open discussion on the SE Asia games 1965 to 1973 and how to be humiliated by short people in black pajama's.
IMAO
Schad their problem is that they still belive they won in Vietnam as well as they belive they did a lot of good (may be even great) thing over there :D
-
Originally posted by Gixer
Britain is well versed at losing wars? :lol
...-Gixer
well Tony Blair is political Zombie
he will not win anything in next round
I guess he will leave politic
-
Originally posted by lada
well Tony Blair is political Zombie
he will not win anything in next round
I guess he will leave politic
Blair isn't a Zombie, just Bush's Poodle and a very obvious one at that. Keeping on waiting to see Bush drop him on his back in front of some school children.
Blair won't leave politics but told to go as there will be a vote of no confidence well before the next election.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Blair won't leave politics but told to go as there will be a vote of no confidence well before the next election.
...-Gixer
yeah you right he wont leave from his owen will.
But many members from his pol. party doesnt like him as well.
I said, i guess he will leave, not he is leaving by now.
He have a lot of more domestical problems, like he promised not to rise university fee`s and he raised it.
I would like to hear some trough from Brits here.
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is the chief of police asked resign evertime a crooked cop surfaces?
P-O-L-I-T-I-C-S = 275,000 signatures on Kerry petition (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1506&u=/afp/20040510/ts_alt_afp/us_iraq_prisoner_vote_040510205228&printer=1)
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
All of THOSE iraqi prisoners are still breathing.
I'm sure some SS officers could have said the same thing at Nuremberg :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Careful Yeager....I might have to resort to an open discussion on the SE Asia games 1965 to 1973 and how to be humiliated by short people in black pajama's.
Bull*it Schadenfreude,
this time the story is totally different. These guys are taller, bearded and wear mostly *white* pijamas.
-
I see alot of you defending these actions as some isolated incident. Yet there are well over 1000 pictures out there. Note I think the soldiers about to be tried by court martial are scapegoats..
There is no way with the frequency of what was happening there that the blame falls on 6 soldiers etc.. let alone reservests guardsman (yes men) etc... Its amusing that not one Officer bucked the chain and became a whistleblower with exception of MG Antonio Taguba's report.
Whats happened here is complete and total negligence of the chain of command.
I would say that falls under the Secretary of Defenses door step.. Note until the facts come out (especially if Rum was briefed by the Red Cross to these actions) that Rum should hold his job until further researched. If he was briefed and did nothing then ax him.. If he was briefed and took action thats great..
This latest scandal is just icing on the cake, Rum has shown borderline incompetence with his choosing of minimal troops in a urban combat zone (that one I just can't tactically live with, its ****ing stupid, and his pentagon briefers have let him know..) Just read the Army Times, Im shure that magazine is some liberal front of disinformation ... No exit strategy.. Another no no.. Old Europe new Europe speeches, alienation of our allies the list goes on and on and on..
As a former soldier I'd say Rum is a walking cluster ****. Who has never been on the ground in a line unit ever and yet he's calling the shots as far as the logistics of warfare.. Whats next Oprah Winfrey as General of the Army describing salad tossing to the iraqis..
Wolfowitz may buy into it...
Rant end...
DoctorYO
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
LOL! Oh that's rich, you post a bunch of unsubstatiated BS and ask if there are any facts to back up the rubuttal. Every statement is already sourced and the sources are specified.
The "fact sheet" referred to is the very same USAID "fact sheet" that Sgt. Reynolds claims to have used as a source for the information you posted. Basically you are now calling into question the validity of the source of the very information that you yourself posted. Sweet irony.
After RE-reading the Debunking of the factsheet it sounds to me that Andrew Lazarus for his comment at dailyKos and whatever his credentials might be has nitpicked this thing pretty good.
- Over 400,000 kids have up-to-date immunizations.
He says this is "interesting' but FACT is kids are getting immunizations. They may not be up to date but they are getting them.
"That being said, hundred of thousands of immunized children has got to be a good thing. "
Over 4.5 million people have clean drinking water for the first time
ever in Iraq.
Sounds like this is more or less true. I guess having drinking water isnt important though. lets read on.
- The country now receives 2 times the electrical power it did before the war.
Not true. According to the Fact Sheet, on March 11, 2004, power peaked at approximately 92% of "the pre-conflict generating level". ABC reports that power generation is off since last October and is averaging somewhere around pre-conflict generation.
Actually I have seen reports (they are up and down) that there has indeed been an increase in power production. As more plants come back on line that that number will increase.
More power.....that's gotta be good.
100% of the hospitals are open and fully staffed, compared to 35% before the war.
Not true. The Fact Sheet provides no information about this. But, the Washington Post on March 5, 2004 reported
"Health Minister Khudair Fadhil Abbas said about 90 percent of the hospitals and clinics have been brought back to the same poor conditions as before the war but that the others will take more time to reach even that low level."
And US troops are building/refurbishing them every day.
OK so maybe not 100% but 90% to 35% is still an INCREASE
This guy sounds to me like a profesional nit picker. I agree the FACTS may not be 100% accurate and sound glossed over..>BUT it is a TRUTH that things are getting better........[beatles]got to admit its getting better......its getting better all the time[/beatles]
-
The sun never sets on the English Empire :eek:
-
Hmmm... Powell had some interesting things to say this morning.
http://www.npr.org/features/feature.php?wfId=1892012
NPR didn't post the transcript of the interview, but you can listen to it.
"It could get worse before it gets better. But it will get better. I just don't know what tomorrow will bring, but this is not over yet."
-
they have been saying that line since day one. Things always get worse before they get better and tomorrow it will get worse. Been a line used so many times its worn dry.
-
"the grass is greener on the other side"
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"six of one, half a dozen of the other"? ;)