Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Modas on May 11, 2004, 10:52:48 AM
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Sorry if this has been posted already but....
I'm hearing on the news that there are additional pictures AND videos of iraqi prisoners being tortured (not the ones already released)
Why in the name of all that is holy would you release MORE of this stuff? IMO that is like drinking gas and p1ssing on a brush fire. Who's releasing this stuff? The governent? News agencies?
Someone should pull their heads out of thier collective butts and wake up. We know this stuff is going on, no need to release more stuff and make the situation worse.
Punish those responsible and move on.
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Its election year.
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If the pics are military property then they can burn them in a bonfire for all I care. If they are personal property or in the hands of a news service... tough tatas. The press will print whatever it sees fit. Ain't freedom wonderful?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Its election year.
Do not give me that election year BS. They would be release this stuff anyways. If you do not think that most Americans want to see these, then you are kidding yourself. Plus it is the job of the media to release a story, and this is a story.
btw it is the military releaseing them.
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Ratings.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Ratings.
You do not think this is a legitimate news story?
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
You do not think this is a legitimate news story?
I do indeed.
But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.
There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there. This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause. Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago? Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?
What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I do indeed.
But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.
There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there. This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause. Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago? Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?
What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?
There is an investigation that is on going in congress now. Would you like them to not cover this story?
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Congress is showboating. I figure its only a matter of time before a collection of overzealous Democrats reckon a "fact finding mission" is in order... complete with cameras and a makeup team, of course.
The real investigation is the responsibility of the DoD and has been underway for months.
You didnt answer my question.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I do indeed.
But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.
There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there. This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause. Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago? Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?
What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?
This is wrong for so many reasons, I don't know for sure where to start, but I'll try.
But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.
The wound has not healed, it's bleeding freely. It's a trust wound. Our allies have doubts about our moral credibility, and our enemies feel that their hatred of us is vindicated. If we are not completely, and I mean COMPLETELY open and honest with exposing our dirty laundry, saying 'mea culpa', punishing the offenders with no special treatment, and fixing the problem for the future, then that TRUST can never be rebuilt.
There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there. This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause. Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago? Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?
It's breaking news because hearing about these new pictures IS news. Without context, what's to prevent everyone in the world from thinking that the new pictures prove a continuing pattern instead of an isolated incident? You and I know that this was aberrant, but there are plenty of people out there who WANT to believe that the US is in the business of torturing innocents and killing puppies. The new pictures MUST be analyzed to death so we can make it clear that the guilty will be punished.
What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?
1. The United States of America is not the military. The USA has a military, but it is a tool, not the entity of our country itself. As a result of this, the media, government, corporations, and everyone on the soil of our great land is best served by scrutiny where it is needed.
2. Liberty is like a flower, and the truth is light. As jerky and annoying as some reporters are, the fact remains that a vigilant media points light at places that would prefer to remain dark, and those dark areas are where individual rights wither.
Without their scrutiny, the country we live in would have many dark places.
I make no excuses for their personal character. I know that every human in this country, media included, has his or her own agenda. If I were to believe that every reporter is guided by a sense of patriotism then I would be a fool, but that's not important. To push the light metaphor one step further, a reporter is like a guy wearing a miner hat. No matter where he looks, his spotlight follows, and as my mother used to say, 'even a blind chicken finds a piece of corn occasionally'. Of course, she said it in german, so it sounded like swearing, but for me, that just reinforces my belief in the ideals that make this country great. People like my mom strike out from their homes and birthplaces and make the journey to the United States of America because there are so many things that make this land better then anywhere else.
If you suppress the media, then many of those things will wilt in the darkness and eventually die.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
I do indeed.
But its hardly necessary to reopen the wound multiple times following the healing of said wound.
There is plenty of 'breaking news' out there. This **** is already a week old and its been on the TV without pause. Why not focus on the investigation that began months ago? Why not have a talking head come in and 'analyze' the steps taken to learn about and contain the problem?
What do you think we have to gain by causing more damage to the war effort?
The damage is done, we are create more enemys in iraq faster then we can kill them.
It is congress's job to make sure that the military is kept in check, and that the people responsible are punished. Would you rather there be no checks and balances and the military just run itself with no oversite from the representation of the people of which it serves?
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
There is an investigation that is on going in congress now. Would you like them to not cover this story?
But you have stated over and over that investigations dont matter. Everyone has completly ignored the FACT that once these abuses were reported to the chain of command (or higher) the army handled the investigation by the book.
This was a failure in leadership from the brigade commander on down. There was a break down in military discipline.
Again I see the damage. I dont see the scandel. A crime was committed and justice is being done. This is because we have rules and laws. When they are broken we seek to fix. This is what seperates us from the terrorists.
The American public has NO RIGHT to see these pictures. The guards taking them were in fact breaking the law by doing so.
Releasing the rest of the photos will just make matters worse and make the jobs of GIs in iraq that much harder. THE PROBLEM IS BEING FIXED GIVE IT TIME.
[edit] sorry bout the edit. I accedently hit enter and it posted befor I was finished
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
But you have stated ove and over that investigations dont matter. Everyone has completly ignored the FACT that once these abuses were reported to the chain of command (or higher) the army handled the investigation by the book.
Yes thats fine the army handled the investigations by the book. On a violation is large and disgracefull congress has deemed that it shall do it's job and investigate the military to make sure it has done it's job to the fullest. I would hope that you do not disagree with this.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Yes thats fine the army handled the investigations by the book. On a violation is large and disgracefull congress has deemed that it shall do it's job and investigate the military to make sure it has done it's job to the fullest. I would hope that you do not disagree with this.
I would not AT ALL disagree to a congresional investigation. I would completly disagree with congressional grandstanding and politicising this to promote political agenda.
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Chairboy, it sounds as though you are more concerend with the political fallout on a global scale. Understandably so, of course, as I suppose world opinion is something we should give thought to now and again, but all kidding aside, I'd be far more concerned with ensuring that something like this never happened again at the nuts and bolts level than whether or not the showboating illusion of 'investigation' was good enough for the fine people of Syria.
There is a problem - I say we fix it. 'Trust' is an issue we can tackle after the abuse of prisoners is sorted out. If the problem will be solved (and it will be) I have no problem with the DoD withholding further damaging pictures which will only serve to undermine US efforts, contributing zero to the investigation or the 'healing' process.
Perhaps my opinion would change somewhat if the media and congress went after the officers and enlisted men responsible for this rather than the most important political target they can lay their hands on who, arguably, has done everything right thus far.
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I guess the question is, do you want a free and open society where the populous has a right to know what its government is doing (providing, of course, for operational security), or a socialist society where the government controls what it wants its people to hear?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I would not AT ALL disagree to a congresional investigation. I would completly disagree with congressional grandstanding and politicising this to promote political agenda.
How are they grandstanding to promote a political agenda? The most outspoken senators are 3 republicans. It seems like noone in the senate can do anything without you labeling a politcal agenda onto it.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
It seems like noone in the senate can do anything without you labeling a politcal agenda onto it.
ROFL!
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Chairboy, it sounds as though you are more concerend with the political fallout on a global scale. Understandably so, of course, as I suppose world opinion is something we should give thought to now and again, but all kidding aside, I'd be far more concerned with ensuring that something like this never happened again at the nuts and bolts level than whether or not the showboating illusion of 'investigation' was good enough for the fine people of Syria.
I agree that the problem must be fixed, I think our disagreement comes in the definition of what 'fix' means. Fixing this problem is a lot more then just preventing it from happening again. If you blow a fuse in your car, replacing the fuse doesn't 'fix' the problem, it just addresses the symptom. You still need to find out what caused the fuse to blow in the first place.
If we don't deal with the trust issues worldwide, we'll see another generation of America haters grow up. Out of that generation, who knows how many attackers will be groomed to strike against our soil the way the 19 hijackers did on that terrible day 3 years ago?
I'm a software quality assurance professional, and one of the basic tenents of our work is that a bug gets exponentially more expensive to fix as time passes. If you fix it before you ship, the cost is negligible compared to fixing it in the field. The same applies here, and if we don't 'fix this bug' as early as possible, the cost of dealing with it 'in the field' will be measured in the lives of killed US soldiers and civilians.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
How are they grandstanding to promote a political agenda? The most outspoken senators are 3 republicans. It seems like noone in the senate can do anything without you labeling a politcal agenda onto it.
Calling for Rumsfeild to step down after they've done everything right during this IMO is politically motivated.
And no its not just 3 republicans.....most of the democrat senators this morning seemed to me like they were digging for somthing that just wasnt there.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Calling for Rumsfeild to step down after they've done everything right during this IMO is politically motivated.
And no its not just 3 republicans.....most of the democrat senators this morning seemed to me like they were digging for somthing that just wasnt there.
That is their job, to dig. If it isnt there good. How would you like them to investigate. Ask questions like "is everything doing okay mr general? Do you need more money?"
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
...after they've done everything right during this...
You sure about that?
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Originally posted by Furious
You sure about that?
Do you have evidence otherwise? They performed an extensive investigation after it was reported to the proper officials. I watched the testimony this morning and it sounds plain and simple: Rules were in place to prevent this. Those rules were broken....people will be punished for it.
Stabby....I watched the hearing. When you have them making statements of abuse outside the scope of the current investigation just to bring more bad stuff to the table it is neither productive nor helpfull to the current investigation. They were mostly democrates....its not that they werent looking for proof or anything but they were grasping at straws and creating fiction to me at least
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Do you have evidence otherwise? They performed an extensive investigation after it was reported to the proper officials. I watched the testimony this morning and it sounds plain and simple: Rules were in place to prevent this. Those rules were broken....people will be punished for it.
Stabby....I watched the hearing. When you have them making statements of abuse outside the scope of the current investigation just to bring more bad stuff to the table it is neither productive nor helpfull to the current investigation. They were mostly democrates....its not that they werent looking for proof or anything but they were grasping at straws and creating fiction to me at least
Sounds like you just do not like the fact that the military is being questioned. Congress is just doing its job. Their job is to ask questions, to try and make sure everything is being brought up. Like i said before, would you rather them not ask so many questions?
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Sounds like you just do not like the fact that the military is being questioned. Congress is just doing its job. Their job is to ask questions, to try and make sure everything is being brought up. Like i said before, would you rather them not ask so many questions?
They can question the military all they want. This is their job. But I listen to some of their questions and to me it seems that they are moivated to ask these questions not to investigate but to tarnish. That's what I have a problem with.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
They can question the military all they want. This is their job. But I listen to some of their questions and to me it seems that they are moivated to ask these questions not to investigate but to tarnish. That's what I have a problem with.
We both have our biases i guess. I do not see how the questions are tarnishing the military. Then again i do not have any undying support for them.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
We both have our biases i guess. I do not see how the questions are tarnishing the military. Then again i do not have any undying support for them.
that is quite obvious