Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: muckmaw on May 11, 2004, 11:12:15 AM
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Well, in the current enviornment of media Hyperbole, why is this case called "Abuse" but the Iraqi Prisoners were "Tortured"? Seems to me, these innocent children were alleged treated much worse than almost all the Iraqi cases I've read about.
God, I hate the media!
Suit Claims Abuse by Nuns at Mass. School
55 minutes ago Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!
By MARTIN FINUCANE, Associated Press Writer
BOSTON - Nine former students of the Boston School for the Deaf filed a lawsuit Tuesday alleging they were raped and beaten by nuns at the now-defunct school.
The plaintiffs accused at least 13 nuns in the lawsuit, along with a priest and a male athletic instructor at the school and a former top official in the Boston Roman Catholic Archdiocese, according to their attorney, Mitchell Garabedian.
The alleged victims, three women and six men, were between the ages of 7 and 16 when, they claim, they were sexually and physically abused between 1944 and 1977. The Boston School for the Deaf, in Randolph, was run by an independent, nonprofit corporation until it closed more than a decade ago.
"They are all speech-impaired and hearing-impaired," said Garabedian, who represents a total of 31 former students at the school and expects to file more lawsuits. "Instead of receiving an education they received beatings and sexually abusive actions."
Garabedian said the abuse included fondling, rape, and rape with foreign objects. At least one student's head was submerged, face-first in a toilet until she passed out; others were locked in closets for hours as a form of punishment. The alleged victims are now 41 to 67 years old.
"The physical abuse is extremely disturbing," said Garabedian, who has represented hundreds of people who filed lawsuits alleging sexual abuse by priests.
The nuns named in the lawsuit are from the Congregation of the Sisters of St. Joseph of Boston. The case is the first to allege widespread abuse by nuns in the Boston area since the clergy sex abuse scandal began in Boston in early 2002.
The 100-page complaint filed in Suffolk Superior Court cited 13 nuns by name and said other plaintiffs, including at least one other nun, were unidentified. Some of the plaintiffs were accused of participating in the abuse; others, like Bishop Thomas V. Daily, who held several top posts in the Boston Archdiocese, were named for alleged negligence in failing to supervise the others.
William Shaevel, an attorney for the school, said he had not yet seen the lawsuit or received details of the allegations.
"We've asked for but have not received any of the specifics, so we have not been able to conduct our own investigation," he said. "Our guiding principle here will be to conduct our investigation and deal with this with sensitivity, respect and dignity."
The Rev. Christopher Coyne, spokesman for the Boston Archdiocese, did not immediately return a message seeking comment.
Boston was the epicenter of the clergy sex abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. Cardinal Bernard Law resigned in December 2002 amid criticism of his handling of the crisis, and the archdiocese reached an $85 million settlement last year with more than 550 people who said they were abused by priests.
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Well rape is expected from the catholic church, not the US military.
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If you had pictures of the abuse to those children whilst it was happening then I can guarantee you that the nuns and others responsible would be having a much hotter time of it.
Ravs
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So this is what it comes down to?
If there's video and a sound byte, its a much more serious offense, worthy of the term "Torture"?
If it's just some children making an accusation, then it's only abuse?
Sad, really.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So this is what it comes down to?
If there's video and a sound byte, its a much more serious offense, worthy of the term "Torture"?
If it's just some children making an accusation, then it's only abuse?
Sad, really.
Well so far it is only an accusation, and it has only been on the wire for a day with no real proof comming out. So the news says, well do we follow congressional hearings with alot of nifty pictures or do we follow a story that just hit the wire with little to no proof as of yet? The media is just giving the american people what they want to see.
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Stabby, I'm not questioning the coverage..
I'm questioning the wording used by news outlets.
If the allegations are true, why were the kids only "Abused" when the Iraqi's were "Tortured"?
Seems to me, if true, the kids treatment was the same if not worse in most cases.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Stabby, I'm not questioning the coverage..
I'm questioning the wording used by news outlets.
If the allegations are true, why were the kids only "Abused" when the Iraqi's were "Tortured"?
Seems to me, if true, the kids treatment was the same if not worse in most cases.
Were kids beaten to death?
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Were the Iraqi's?
Oh, wait, yes there were 2 Homicides out of how many prisoners?
And out of how many Coalition/Iraqi Interactions over the past year?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Were the Iraqi's?
Oh, wait, yes there were 2 Homicides out of how many prisoners?
And out of how many Coalition/Iraqi Interactions over the past year?
And 10 under investigation. Well you wanted to know why some media outlets(almost none say torture anymore) said POW's were tortured. I gave you a reason, do not go and have a hissy fit.
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Sadly, this torture was within the doctrine of the church, which considered disabillity a symptom of faithlessness.
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I was talking about the public's reaction.
I think it would be true to say that if those prisoner pictures had never been published, this PR disaster would never have occured.
In the same way, if pictures had been published of these children during the act of abuse which showed the aggressor and the abuser in the same shot - Yes, I think there would be lynch mobs after those nuns and others.
People are much more reactive to images than they are to words in situations like these.
I agree, it is sad. You should go over to the Amnesty International site and read about the untold horrors that ordinary people suffer daily - and be horrified.
Ravs.
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So because there were 2 proven murders of Iraqi Prisoners, out of the thousands in captivity, the others who were stripped and hazed were victums of torture?
Forgive me if I do not subscribe to this logic.
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Originally posted by ravells
I was talking about the public's reaction.
I think it would be true to say that if those prisoner pictures had never been published, this PR disaster would never have occured.
In the same way, if pictures had been published of these children during the act of abuse which showed the aggressor and the abuser in the same shot - Yes, I think there would be lynch mobs after those nuns and others.
People are much more reactive to images than they are to words in situations like these.
I agree, it is sad. You should go over to the Amnesty International site and read about the untold horrors that ordinary people suffer daily - and be horrified.
Ravs.
That's alright, I'm depressed enough just walking into work.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So because there were 2 proven murders of Iraqi Prisoners, out of the thousands in captivity, the others who were stripped and hazed were victums of torture?
Forgive me if I do not subscribe to this logic.
They were more then hazed. It was torture. Being abused while in captivity. Sorry that is torture.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
They were more then hazed. It was torture. Being abused while in captivity. Sorry that is torture.
Main Entry: 1tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument
Main Entry: 1abuse
Pronunciation: &-'byüs
Function: noun
1 : a corrupt practice or custom
2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : MISUSE
3 obsolete : a deceitful act : DECEPTION
4 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
5 : physical maltreatment
I could not possibly disagree more, but I've no interest in continuing this exchange.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Main Entry: 1tor·ture
Pronunciation: 'tor-ch&r
Function: noun
1 a : anguish of body or mind : AGONY b : something that causes agony or pain
2 : the infliction of intense pain (as from burning, crushing, or wounding) to punish, coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure
3 : distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument
Main Entry: 1abuse
Pronunciation: &-'byüs
Function: noun
1 : a corrupt practice or custom
2 : improper or excessive use or treatment : MISUSE
3 obsolete : a deceitful act : DECEPTION
4 : language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
5 : physical maltreatment
I could not possibly disagree more, but I've no interest in continuing this exchange.
You do understand that kind of shame to a muslim is a form of mental torture, and physical. Tell me, how do you know those men were not in agony?
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So because there were 2 proven murders of Iraqi Prisoners, out of the thousands in captivity, the others who were stripped and hazed were victums of torture?
Forgive me if I do not subscribe to this logic.
If the pictures had been reversed, the iraqis standing over naked americans, you would have blown a gasket.
Logic is one thing you do not seem to subscribe to very often.
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There's video of Arabs beheading an American Prisoner today..
I wish they would have just stripped him naked and put a dog collar on him.
But your above all this, right Furious?
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by muckmaw
There's video of Arabs beheading an American Prisoner today..
I wish they would have just stripped him naked and put a dog collar on him.
But your above all this, right Furious?
:rolleyes:
I am, stooping to their lvl, or even close to it does not make us any better then the people that crashed the planes into the towers. How are supposed to claim moral high ground and win over the average iraqi with those aholes in the prisons.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
I am, stooping to their lvl, or even close to it does not make us any better then the people that crashed the planes into the towers. How are supposed to claim moral high ground and win over the average iraqi with those aholes in the prisons.
You say this as it is a matter of policy. IT IS NOT.
Islamic fundamentalism: seeks to destroy America and kill Americans. No ifs ands or buts about it. Woman children men soldiers doesnt matter to them.
US ARMY: Has distinct policy in place that prohibits this type of activity. Those rules were broken and those that commited crimes will be brought to justice.
That's the difference between us and them. That's what makes us better than them.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
You say this as it is a matter of policy. IT IS NOT.
Islamic fundamentalism: seeks to destroy America and kill Americans. No ifs ands or buts about it. Woman children men soldiers doesnt matter to them.
US ARMY: Has distinct policy in place that prohibits this type of activity. Those rules were broken and those that commited crimes will be brought to justice.
That's the difference between us and them. That's what makes us better than them.
What i ment by stooping to their lvl is a reply to muckmaw wanting to do a little torture himself.
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Originally posted by ravells
People are much more reactive to images than they are to words in situations like these.
That's because people either can't read or don't have the time to read. People trust their eyes first and their brains second. If they see it, it must be true. Kinda like that picture of the shark under the Golden Gate Bridge that's jumping out of the water to attack a helicopter crewman - "I can see it right there in the picture!"
And of course, the Iraqi prison photos of a 20-something year old woman with a butch haircut leading a naked man around by a leash immediately conjured up images of all sorts of sexual perversions. The media was able to play up to the repressed sexual fantasies of its audience.
This sort of reminds me of the humorous scene in "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" where Eli Wallach's character is about to be hanged and the sheriff is reading off the list of crimes he committed. When the sheriff gets to "sexual relations with a white woman" Eli snarls at an older lady in the crowd, who reels back and clutches a handkerchief to her face "Oh!". hehehehe.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
There's video of Arabs beheading an American Prisoner today..
I wish they would have just stripped him naked and put a dog collar on him.
But your above all this, right Furious?
:rolleyes:
Read what you write, dolt.
quote:
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So because there were 2 proven murders of Iraqi Prisoners, out of the thousands in captivity, the others who were stripped and hazed were victums of torture?
Forgive me if I do not subscribe to this logic.
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You use no logic. You twist to suit. Had those in the pictures been americans, you for sure would call it torture.
Don't presume to know my feelings on these issues just because I feel the need to call you on your bull****.
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Originally posted by gofaster
That's because people either can't read or don't have the time to read. People trust their eyes first and their brains second. If they see it, it must be true. Kinda like that picture of the shark under the Golden Gate Bridge that's jumping out of the water to attack a helicopter crewman - "I can see it right there in the picture!"
And of course, the Iraqi prison photos of a 20-something year old woman with a butch haircut leading a naked man around by a leash immediately conjured up images of all sorts of sexual perversions. The media was able to play up to the repressed sexual fantasies of its audience.
This sort of reminds me of the humorous scene in "The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly" where Eli Wallach's character is about to be hanged and the sheriff is reading off the list of crimes he committed. When the sheriff gets to "sexual relations with a white woman" Eli snarls at an older lady in the crowd, who reels back and clutches a handkerchief to her face "Oh!". hehehehe.
Excellent observation, GF
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It's just so hard to believe. The Catholic Church has brought so much good to the world and has never done anything to harm anyone.
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Originally posted by Furious
Read what you write, dolt.
quote:
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So because there were 2 proven murders of Iraqi Prisoners, out of the thousands in captivity, the others who were stripped and hazed were victums of torture?
Forgive me if I do not subscribe to this logic.
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You use no logic. You twist to suit. Had those in the pictures been americans, you for sure would call it torture.
Don't presume to know my feelings on these issues just because I feel the need to call you on your bull****.
Apparently, you feel the need to call names as well as what you deem BS.
Funny, Furious. I always thought you were better than everyone else on this board. Well, at least you seem to think that is the case anyway.
*Shrugs*
Read what I posted again. Why is one group's treatment torture and the other termed abuse? At the very least, both groups were treated equally harsh. At most, the raping of children rates as more abusive than spapshots of men in compromising situations.
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Originally posted by muckmaw
So because there were 2 proven murders of Iraqi Prisoners, out of the thousands in captivity, the others who were stripped and hazed were victums of torture?
If you keep saying "hazed" enough maybe it will make it true. :rolleyes:
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well one thing we won't be saying about them is "decapitated"
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Originally posted by muckmaw
...whining...
...Read what I posted again. Why is one group's treatment torture and the other termed abuse? At the very least, both groups were treated equally harsh. At most, the raping of children rates as more abusive than spapshots of men in compromising situations.
You have indicated that what occured in the Iraqi prisons is not torture. You called it hazing. Yet you complain others are not using the proper terminology in comparison to a situation of your choosing. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?
...and I KNOW that you would define the same treatment of an american prisoner in Iraq as torture. You know it as well. This makes your arguement even less convincing.
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Originally posted by gofaster
That's because people either can't read or don't have the time to read. People trust their eyes first and their brains second. If they see it, it must be true. Kinda like that picture of the shark under the Golden Gate Bridge that's jumping out of the water to attack a helicopter crewman - "I can see it right there in the picture!"
Go faster is getting what I'm saying. Remember how this was the iconic picture of vietnam?
This is going to be the iconic picture of Iraq
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/258_1084315523_prisoner.jpg)
Wars are as much about truth as perception. When was the last time we saw pictures of troops building schools or water plants? People remember strong images. We need pictures like these:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/258_1084315828_happy-iraqi.jpg)
which I think are just as iconic. Just need to get them published more.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Furious
You have indicated that what occured in the Iraqi prisons is not torture. You called it hazing. Yet you complain others are not using the proper terminology in comparison to a situation of your choosing. Do you not see the hypocrisy in this?
...and I KNOW that you would define the same treatment of an american prisoner in Iraq as torture. You know it as well. This makes your arguement even less convincing.
All I am doing by using the word hazing, quite intentionally, mind you, is the exact thing the media is doing, just on the other side of the spectrum.
You seem quick to point out my hypocrisy, yet you fail to see that same flaw in the mainstream media.
Frankly, the Iraqis were abused. They were not tortured or Hazed. This of course, does not include those that were murdered.
Believe what you want. I really don't care, no matter how omnipotent you may think you are. The fact is, no matter who is receiving this treatment, in my opinion, it is abuse, but not torture.
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muck, for wider purposes it does not matter a fig what you and I define torture as. What matters is what the rest of the world thinks. And from what I've read/seen/heard they think it's torture.
Ravs
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Originally posted by muckmaw
All I am doing by using the word hazing, quite intentionally, mind you, is the exact thing the media is doing, just on the other side of the spectrum.
You seem quick to point out my hypocrisy, yet you fail to see that same flaw in the mainstream media.
Great you proved your point, the media has biases (surprise surprise) and you are a hypocrit.
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Originally posted by ravells
Go faster is getting what I'm saying. Remember how this was the iconic picture of vietnam?
This is going to be the iconic picture of Iraq
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/258_1084315523_prisoner.jpg)
Wars are as much about truth as perception. When was the last time we saw pictures of troops building schools or water plants? People remember strong images. We need pictures like these:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/258_1084315828_happy-iraqi.jpg)
which I think are just as iconic. Just need to get them published more.
Ravs
Actually, I think this one will be more memorable.
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Originally posted by ravells
muck, for wider purposes it does not matter a fig what you and I define torture as. What matters is what the rest of the world thinks. And from what I've read/seen/heard they think it's torture.
Ravs
Thats the whole point, though.
The reason the rest of the world is so upset about this is due more to media hyperbole than anything else.
You must realize most people in this world do not bother to think for themselves. They digest 10 second soundbytes and spit it back to the pollster when prompted.
Most of the world calls this torture because thats what CNN calls it.
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Yep.
Sadly so.
Ravs
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Ravs-
I believe it was the same soldier you pictured that said this morning that she was "Ordered" to pose for that shot and others by superior officers and she did it against her will.
What do you make of this?
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I know the picture you mean (woman with the lead), but I didn't post it. I posted the one of the hooded prisoner on the box.
Whether or not she was asked to pose for the picture makes no difference to the impact the picture has and will cause. It's out there and it will continue to do damage for a long time.
Ravs
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So Muck, are you more concerned that "the media" is giving preferential treatment to the iraqis with the word "torture" or with what actually happened to these kids? Who gives a watermelon what word the media uses, it doesn't make the acts of violence any more or less real. Get over it.