Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: GRUNHERZ on May 11, 2004, 07:35:29 PM
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:mad: :(
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What Grunz? methinks your post is missing something.
Ravs
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:confused: :( lol
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Don't be too hard on him. That's about the most coherent Grun post I've ever read.
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man he looks pretty hot :)
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He's one of the most intelligent posters on this board. Don't write him off yet. He's got something up his sleeve.
Gunz...have something up your sleeve
Ravs
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I know exactly what he's talking about. Come on, it's not that hard.
Words can't even describe what I'd like to do to the five in the pictures.
I see why the Russians like the Chechens so much.
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I see why the Russians like the Chechens so much.
Freedom Fighters? :)
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They were chanting allah akbar during the whole thing....
Is that what god means to these men? Do you worship him by butchering a man?
I'm not a muslim but I found that incredibly disrespectful, disturbing and saddenining. Is that how we, the people of the earth in 2004, worship god these days?
It's just like the KKK with their cross burnings or the nazis with their perversion of christianity or the old militarist Japanese with their hatefil interprestion of religion...
These people are sick... We need to fight them, we need to stop them, we need to speak out against them wherever they are...
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Some might say that God is a terrorist. I might actually think about it but I suspect that God is whatever anyone wants God to be.
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The kid's house is 40 minutes from me.
Cant even imagine what his parents have been going through...
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Originally posted by Yeager
Some might say that God is a terrorist. I might actually think about it but I suspect that God is whatever anyone wants God to be.
Nope God is God......people who cut somones head off on camera purely becuase he's American or a Jew or both.....Are terrorists.
I'm still waiting for ONE just ONE prominent muslum or arab leader to denounce this killing. Were are the librals on this DEMANDING AN APOLOGY.....or is it we as Americans should be the only ones that have to say sorry?
GOOD GOD they cut his head off alive while he's screaming and they're chanting alah akbar. It took five wacks to kill him.
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I REALLY hate to ask, but...does anyone have a link to the video of the beheading?
I want my blood to boil over with anger (again).
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If they did, they'd be unwise to post it.
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Couple different sites have it up... I wont post it here though.
Instardban.
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Nope I wouldnt advise it either. I just heard a commentary about in on the news and it sounds like Berg died a VERY painfull death.
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Well I'd imagine that having your head cut off with a rusty knife "cut a loaf of bread style" would hurt - even if the blade was blessed by Allah.
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Originally posted by Saurdaukar
Well I'd imagine that having your head cut off with a rusty knife "cut a loaf of bread style" would hurt - even if the blade was blessed by Allah.
They said it took 5 whacks and he screamed the whole time
I gotta go to the gym or somthing....I'm beyond angry
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Brutal.
And maybe when the pics come out of the murdered Iraqi prisoners some will say "So that's what America is to these guys, eh?"
Fairs fair, huh?
fakes left, breaks right, runs for it.
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No, Nash, they are all criminals, no matter what side they are on. The US, however, will ajudicate the criminals on our side, while those boys will be showered with flowers and kisses from thier side.
That is why we are right and fighting for good, and they are not.
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This is why you don't invite civilians to an occupa... er... I mean a war.
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Yep, Liz.
It's the thing the apologists always overlook, isn't it?
One side condemns, investigates, prosecutes and punishes.
The other side rejoices.
But then, that's exactly the same isn't it?
I can see how the apologists confuse the two.
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Im reminded of a story in Acts about how a old man volunteered to sell ALL his belongings to give the money to Peter (I think it was Peter). But the old man kept some money for himself and lied about it. Just then Peter humiliated the old man and God smite the old man and killed him right there on the spot. Then the wife, an old women came to Peter hours later and Peter asked the old women if she knew what the old man had done with the money, the old women lied and said no and God killed her too, right then and there. This was the story where I put the book down.
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Nazi Germany government killed people in WW2.
Canada government killed people in WW2.
All the same, right Nash?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nazi Germany government killed people in WW2.
Canada government killed people in WW2.
All the same, right Nash?
Well... it would be... if Iraq had tried to take over the world while killin' folks...
Otherwise it's another one of those confusing Nazi analogies.
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Originally posted by Toad
Yep, Liz.
It's the thing the apologists always overlook, isn't it?
One side condemns, investigates, prosecutes and punishes.
The other side rejoices.
But then, that's exactly the same isn't it?
I can see how the apologists confuse the two.
I love this line of thought.
Say you get an Iraqi invasion/occupation of the United States of America. And say, Bubba manages to hang one of them sand ******s from an Oak tree. You tellin' me you wouldn't give at least an attaboy?
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I don't see me saying, "attaboy" to our troops who are abusing terrorists, do you?
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He was complaining about the attaboys er I mean rejoicing by the other side.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
They said it took 5 whacks and he screamed the whole time
It was hard to hear anything above the killers chanting allah akbar. Hmmm... didn't look like whacks... more like hard cutting..
It's gruesome.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Some might say that God is a terrorist. I might actually think about it but I suspect that God is whatever anyone wants God to be.
I agree with yeager on this. God is whatever you want him/she/it to be. God is pretty vicious in the old testament. Smiteing his enemys left and right, and to the muslims we are the enemys of God.
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Originally posted by Sandman
It was hard to hear anything above the killers chanting allah akbar. Hmmm... didn't look like whacks... more like hard cutting..
It's gruesome.
You could hear his last wind gurgling out of his lungs... That was particulary disturbing to me considering the religious overtones..
Nash..
Why did you not apply the same nuanced analyisis when you simply equated US behavior to that of these men...
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
They were chanting allah akbar during the whole thing....
Is that what god means to these men? Do you worship him by butchering a man?
I'm not a muslim but I found that incredibly disrespectful, disturbing and saddenining. Is that how we, the people of the earth in 2004, worship god these days?
It's just like the KKK with their cross burnings or the nazis with their perversion of christianity or the old militarist Japanese with their hatefil interprestion of religion...
These people are sick... We need to fight them, we need to stop them, we need to speak out against them wherever they are...
Agreed ! this is bullchit people and to think that there are stunninghunks on this BBs almost defending them:mad:
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nash..
Why did you not apply the same nuanced analyisis when you simply equated US behavior to that of these men...
Cuz I only give the "nuanced" version when folks hit the PayPal button.
But I'll give ya freebie. Just.... make yer question make sense to me.
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Defending them is pretty dumb. Worse then defending the troops that abused the POW's. Anyone who defends the actions of these guys has lost concept of reality.
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Originally posted by Nash
Well... it would be... if Iraq had tried to take over the world while killin' folks...
Otherwise it's another one of those confusing Nazi analogies.
You seem to be saying the analogy I posted is not appropriate beacuse Iraq was not the invading party in this war....
That doest seem to be relevant....
The US incidents happened because there was a failiure in training, discipline and the chain of command.
On the other hand this beheading happened precisely because of the training, discipline, and chain of command of these terror groups.
Thats a big difference. I hope you are man enough to admit that....
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As long as this is a freebie...
The only difference between the prison guards and these so-called terrorists depends on who's standing in whose house.
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I'm in a picture post kind of mood tonite
(http://dogsnot.net/pics/army.jpg)
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Originally posted by Nash
As long as this is a freebie...
The only difference between the prison guards and these so-called terrorists depends on who's standing in whose house.
"so-called terrorists"
I'll remember that.....
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I love that picture...
What I do is....
I close my eyes and concentrate really deeply and ask myself: "Nash, do I rule?"
Then I open my eyes real quickly, and, there it is: "Of course you do, Nash."
Then I close my eyes and ask myself: "Nash, do you treat others with respect?"
Then I open my eyes and see "Of course you do, Nash." (even though I don't really feel that one... but... who am I to argue?)
Then I close my eyes and.... whoah.... did I fall asleep? How long was that? I gotta get to bed. I open my eyes...
"Of course you do, Nash"
That thing has never steered me wrong.
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hehe, I put that in quotes for you (really)... then I deleted the quotes... then I put them back in... then I deleted them. Was entirely based what your base reaction would be.
If you were a fish I'd grab the most ridiculous fly outta my tacklebox, shrug off the taunts of my pals, and say "I'm goin' Grunnin' today". You latch onto the obvious and ignore the rest.
confusion... guess I am tired. I ended up settling on bolding "these" just to take the brunt off of Grun's sensitivities. Kind of a weak thing to do, but I don't want to make anyone cry.>
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Wow! what an amzing wit you possess...
I am just stunned at the great lengths of trouble you go to in order to make yourself feel clever in defense of those who wouldn't think a quarter of a second to cut your head off while chanting alllah akbar....
But if it suits you.... Silly child....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Wow! what an amzing wit you possess...
I am just stunned at the great lengths ....
Thank you Grun. Thank you very much.
To anyone starting out in this biz, let me tell you now... It's not all glamour. Kinda like 5 minutes of laziness punctuated by almost an hour of panic for no reason whatsoever. But if you work hard and dedicate yourself, you will get there.
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If anyone wants to see the video i will send the link to you thru via email, send me an email(sig) and ill Forward you the link..
It is one of the most brutal things i have ever seen in my life.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I'm in a picture post kind of mood tonite
(http://dogsnot.net/pics/army.jpg)
Those are some ugly guys.
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the little short guy looks like he owns the two big lugs.
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I've seen the video...............These people and those like em need to be put down like rabbid animals. If it was up to me I'd nuke the whole place, turn it into beaded glass!
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Just watched the video.
My opinion of these arseclowns are that they have not evolved past that of the great apes!
No waite the great apes are even smarter and more human than these pieces of ****.
Pull the troops and all coallitions peoples out.
Then send in the b-52s and nuke em into the stone age.
They want to see ahlah! well lets help arrange the meeting shall we.
:mad: :mad: :mad:
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Oh and sandman friendly advice.
Remove the link to that site man cause I can bet ya Skuzzy will have a cow.
And you can imagine some 10year old going there to see it .
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yeah sandman get rid of that post with the link skuzzy will have a stroke!
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There was no link. Just the name of a site.
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i know i was typing in a hurry in case skuzzy "looked" in to make sure we are behaving
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Originally posted by Sandman
There was no link. Just the name of a site.
Ok I was just trying to help ya man.
I have felt the wrath of Skuzzy and was just trying to save ya the trouble.
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I took your recommendation. I didn't want to, but I did. Thanx.
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And all this guy did was help people rebuild their lives, he lived to help others.
"While at Cornell, he traveled to Ghana to teach villagers how to make bricks out of minimal material. His father said Berg returned from Ghana with only the clothes on his back and emaciated because he gave away most of his food. Michael Berg said his son saw his trip to Iraq as an adventure in line with his desire to help others."
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"The only difference between the prison guards and these so-called terrorists depends on who's standing in whose house."
hhhmmm Nash, so we (americans) slap afew iraqis that have killd our sons, brothers,sisters, fathers etc, because soldiers went there to takeout saddam and give those people a fair chance and making somethin for themselves and to improve their living conditions, fresh water etc.
Those "so-called terrorists" hold down a guy who wasnt even a soldier and only went there to help rebuild and make life for those people better, saw off his head while hes alive, while thats bad enough, from the looks of it, they use some piece of watermelon knife to do it, i cannot imagine what that guy felt in his last mins.
And you consider both of these the same?
while i do not agree with beating POWs, i cannot see how anyone would put these 2 together.
sorry Nash, when made that post some months and months ago think we know the one. I gaind alot of respect for you as a person it was a rough battle but you were doin it.
But after that chit, even though you prob dont care and i dont really know you, i have lost all respect for you. Sorry.:(
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Can't win em all. ;)
Democracy has to be earned.
s'about as simple as I can put it.
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...and intardnet respect is the most highly valued thing.
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Respect isnt important to some people obviously, its important to me though.
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Disgusting.
I have no intention to see that video, but from what I ear, I am disgusted.
This people has lost any resemblance with the humankind.
BUT.
I have read a couple of posts here, about nuking guilty and innocents togheter, that deserved "Allah akbar" as soundtrack.
disgusting.
(without capital letter: talk is different than do).
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Originally posted by Lizking
while those boys will be showered with flowers and kisses from thier side.
Where do you suppose to see him in sutch situation ?
But i have to admit it isnt not justice, coz some of coalition soldies will got to jail for few months and nobody kiss them.
Check what happen to people whitch cooperated with occupants during ww2.
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Nash, little over the top playing devil's advocate here :)
I'm sorry for that guy and his familly.
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Oh my.
I love how Toad and Grunherz are happy to suddenly refer to the people doing the killing as some sort of coherent body of people.
The difference is that the US is a civilised State that purports to conduct its affairs with legitimacy and fair handedness, whereas this mythical other 'side' is a rag-tag bunch of outlaws, extremists and terrorists. You can't lump them all together and treat them like a State like Nazi Germany, or then hold them up to our expectations of how a State should behave. This is why I believe the 'War on Terror' is a misnomer of epic proportions.
This difference is that the US et al must be held accountable if they are to be considered superior to the people who butchered this guy. And that is something we all can agree on, right?
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Originally posted by Naso
"Allah akbar"
I think it means somethink like God is great. Not sure trough.
Chechenian partizans waving like this everytime they destroy some Russian stuff or kill few soldiers.
If you will translate public speech of some US politics, you could probably translate "God bless" as "Allah akbar" , since word Allah is arabic expresion for meaning of God in generaly.
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I know what means.
and Allah, Yaveh, Ieova are word coming from the same semitic (Aramaic) root.
Was just pointing that the same fanatic hate is fueling part of both sides.
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"and Allah, Yaveh, Ieova are word coming from the same semitic (Aramaic) root."
All consist of five letters ...... and so does "Lorna"
I see the link!!
BTW. some of you people need to come to the realisation that someone explaiing somehting is not the same as defending that same thing. It's not a hard concept.
Well. Except for the neanderthal-cons it might be.
*neanderthal-con: several evolutionary steps down the conservative ladder from neo-con. (also see Rush Lumbaughmagnon man). Exhibits instinctual, primitive, reactionary knee jerk reponses to opposing observations and criticisms, automatic defense mechanism causes spontaneuos outburts of pure inuendo and exageration, prone to C&Ping debunked "walls of text" from radical right wing blogs and ezines. Card carrying member of the Bush Brigade where duty is optional and when time is actually to be served the participants are stationed in South Dalota where they will defend North America from the threat of the Iraqi navy. Also a flag waving, standard bearing member of the Rumsfield_Feldgendarmerie where the excuse is that anything we do is done because they do worse.
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Originally posted by Nash
You tellin' me you wouldn't give at least an attaboy?
That's exactly what I'm telling you.
Kill them in combat? You betcha.
Behead or hang one that came over to rebuild something? Absolutely not; in fact, I'd "engage" a "Bubba" I found trying to do that.
Apparently, from your commentary in this thread and your post about trolling, you've made a decision to eschew discussions of the type we've had before.
Fine by me; I'll bear that in mind from now on.
Ta.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Oh my.
I love how Toad and Grunherz are happy to suddenly refer to the people doing the killing as some sort of coherent body of people.
The difference is that the US is a civilised State that purports to conduct its affairs with legitimacy and fair handedness, whereas this mythical other 'side' is a rag-tag bunch of outlaws, extremists and terrorists. You can't lump them all together and treat them like a State like Nazi Germany, or then hold them up to our expectations of how a State should behave. This is why I believe the 'War on Terror' is a misnomer of epic proportions.
This difference is that the US et al must be held accountable if they are to be considered superior to the people who butchered this guy. And that is something we all can agree on, right?
So you are calling the hand full of people that humiliated a few Iraqi prisoners the "US"? Do you not see the irony in your statement?
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I don't regard them as a "coherent body of people".
However, I don't see ANY of the "Islam is a religion of peace" Mullahs or Clerics speaking out against this. I see no Fatwah condemning these killers. In fact, there is only silence from the peaceful religion of Islam and all its followers. Well, except for the followers of Islam that are openly rejoicing in this murder of a civilian, of course.
Can you help me with a link to the negative commentary about these rag-tag bunch of outlaws, extremists and terrorists from the fine, upstanding, peaceful representatives of Islam?
The US IS being held accountable and, most importantly, we are holding OURSELVES accountable. We are condemning the actions of the troops that break our rules; we'll punish them as well.
We've all seen the commentary from the US participants of this BBS universally condemning the actions of the US troops responsible for the prisoner abuse.
However, I havent' see much in the way of condemnation of this beheading by the apologists for Islam that post here. This thread is a prime example of that absence of condemnation.
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Hi Toad,
Who would say are the 'apologists' for Islam on this BBS?
Ravs
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Originally posted by Dowding
Oh my.
I love how Toad and Grunherz are happy to suddenly refer to the people doing the killing as some sort of coherent body of people.
The difference is that the US is a civilised State that purports to conduct its affairs with legitimacy and fair handedness, whereas this mythical other 'side' is a rag-tag bunch of outlaws, extremists and terrorists. You can't lump them all together and treat them like a State like Nazi Germany, or then hold them up to our expectations of how a State should behave. This is why I believe the 'War on Terror' is a misnomer of epic proportions.
This difference is that the US et al must be held accountable if they are to be considered superior to the people who butchered this guy. And that is something we all can agree on, right?
They are a cohernt group of people.... Their policy is terrorize the world and impose some sort of radical islamo fascism wherever they can..
Did you not get the memo?
Have you allready forgotten 911? Or Bali? Or Daniel Pearl's excecution. Or the Madrid bombings? Or any of the hundreds of acts of terror done under the wing of Al Qeada radical islamic training, funding and encurragement. The thousands of dead? Real dead, just as dead as if they were killed by nazi panzers rolling accprss russia or by japanese bayonets in the jougles of burma...
And who cares that they are not 100%like a nation state? Why are you trying to put it into some sort of old fashined box. They are atrhreat just as real and imminent as the Germans and Japanese (911= pearl harbor) and we are fighting them the best we can. Apparently, some of us are defending them as best we can.... How nice..
I simply dont understand this pervrse need some of you on the left have to defend these people and somehow marginalize these crimes....
You know if the western left put 10% as much energy into criticizing, protesting and speaking out aginst the terrorists as they do into criticizing the west the world would be amuch better place. I can't imagine how much perverse moral support and uplift those bastards get every time they see a protest on our straets.
Yea yea yea, I know I'm an evil nazi or something baecause only nazis think the terrorists are bad...
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Clearly irony is not your strong point. Or reading comprehension, for that matter.
I said the US and its agents have to be held accountable for its actions, if it is to claim the moral high ground. I did not say the people responsible for murder and mistreatment were typical of the US servicemen or civilians - but they are representatives and as such should be brought to justice so that the reputation of the US is not brought into disrepute. I'm sure that will be the case. Otherwise the actions of this minority will seen to be an acceptable facet of American culture/behaviour.
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Ravs,
I don't think that would take much research. One could look at the threads on the "American prisoner abuse" and the very few posts on this beheading and then match up names. I think one would find that some names from the American "abuse" threads are noticably absent in any thread condemning the beheading. I suppose that means little to some but not to others.
I'll forego the "naming of names". After all, I suppose that's just my opinion and there's never much point in the "did not / did so" arguments that would follow. I suspect Skuzzy would rightfully take a dim view of it anyway.
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Originally posted by Dowding
Clearly irony is not your strong point. Or reading comprehension, for that matter.
I said the US and its agents have to be held accountable for its actions, if it is to claim the moral high ground. I did not say the people responsible for murder and mistreatment were typical of the US servicemen or civilians - but they are representatives and as such should be brought to justice so that the reputation of the US is not brought into disrepute. I'm sure that will be the case. Otherwise the actions of this minority will seen to be an acceptable facet of American culture/behaviour.
I dont even know why this is an argument about the "moral highground" It's not like there is a cover up going on here. Its not like they are trying to sweep this under the rug. US service men who violate the Uniformed Code Of Military Justice will be punished accordingly.
Show me a video of a US soldier beheading a civilian shouting god is great in this conflict and I'll eat my hat.
Hmmm.....lets see here...>Build schools or blow them up......build schools or blow them up......build schools or blow them up. Decisions decisions What would the good guys do?
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Where did I defend the terrorists?
You can't in one breath call these people barbarians or criminals and in the next show surprise that they justify the label. You can't express moral superiority in one instance, and then express a wish to dispense with the very processes which make us civilised.
Well you can, but it's call hypocrisy.
And the people doing these atrocities are not a nation state - they are a disparate collection of terrorist groups with the same target. Many of them would refuse to sit around a table together due to differing agenda or ideology.
My guess is that OBL doesn't mastermind every attack against Western civilisation.
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So Gunslinger, Iraq is not about humanitarian concerns over the fate of the Iraqi people under the rule of Saddam? That would have been taking the moral high ground, I'm afraid. Afterall, we rightfully labelled Saddam a tyrant.
So... first it wasn't about WMD. Now it's not about the fate of humanity. Tell me, exactly why did we invade?
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Dowding,
I don't think anyone here is really disagreeing with you.
However, I think a few, like myself, are wondering about the total absence of condemnation from the civilized, peace loving Mullahs, clerics and Islamic governments. Those are indeed supposed to be "civilized" people and "nation states".
Where are those voices?
Where are the voices of those who, in some threads just a bit down the page, were vociferously castigating the US soldiers "guilty of prisoner abuse" and the US itself for allowing that abuse to happen?
Where are those voices?
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"...total absence of condemnation from the civilized, peace loving Mullahs, clerics and Islamic governments. Those are indeed supposed to be "civilized" people and "nation states....Where are those voices?"
Toad go to Google news, CNN, Reuters and the BBC and you will see the news about Arabs being repulsed and horrified at what happened.
Here. I'll help.......
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/3706763.stm
Just a reminder - there is a significant difference in time between the continental US and the Middle East. So last night when several people were all indignant about not seeing any negative Arab response to this hideous murder bear in mind that it was midnight-3am over there.
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Westy, I read the BBC and Reuters stories on it.
Note in both cases they have some comments from "the man on the street" and that this commentary is pretty equally divided saying "Bad thing" and "Americans deserve it". In short, it's a split decision from the man on the street.
I have yet to find a comment from a leading Mullah or Islamic Cleric in any Islamic country condemning this action. Where's the speech from the Mosque telling the faithful that this is an unconscionable act? No news of that....... and there probably won't be.
Where is the Fatwah isssued by some major Islamic cleric saying these people are an abomination in the eyes of Allah? Saying that they should be turned in by the faithful and punished?
Where is the condemnation by the government of any Islamic state saying these people are an embarassment to Muslims everywhere?
Got a link for any of those?
I've seen the mixed message from the "man on the Arab street". That's all that's out there as far as I know.
Nothing from the religious leaders of Islam or the "civilized" governments of the Arab world.
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Are you really surprised people hold a civilised Western democracy to a higher degree of scrutiny than a bunch of criminals?
About the Muslim voices - perhaps they go unreported. They may have been slow in the past, but the UK Council of Muslim Clerics recently condemned the use of Mosques to incite religious intolerance. Just one example, I'm sure there are more.
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Well we've gone from from total absence of outrage to mixed messages by the man on the street and now you're looking for specific fatwahs? And if found I predict the next reply would to that you needed to see a specific condemnation from Shiek Johndoesalami or Mullah Ohmyachingbakk.
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I think if any Muslim Cleric or government spoke out against this beheading it'd be front page news on every paper in the world.
I believe you realize this as well.
The idea that say...... the government of Iran spoke out against the beheading and it just didn't make CNN is laughable isn't it?
The idea that say...... the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in Iraq condemned these killers and issued a Fatwah against them would go unreported by the BBC is also laughable, isn't it?
The idea that the Grand Ayatollahs of the three greatest mosques in Islam, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, the Mosque of the Prophet in Medina, and al-Aqsa in Jerusalem all condemned these killers would go unreported in the world press is also laughable, no?
Where is any condemnation other than the decidedly mixed opinion from the "muslim on the street"?
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Is that just a dodge, Westy?
In the US threads, there were outcries and demands for apologies from the US government, Bush, firing of Rumsfeld, etc.
There was essentially universal condemnation of the abuse by the US "man in the street".
I haven't asked to be shown anything from the "muslim in the street" in the world press in any of my posts.
I want to see the "officaldom" of Islam condemn this act.
You can't find it and you won't. I think we all know why and it isn't because it's going unreported.
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Originally posted by Westy
"...total absence of condemnation from the civilized, peace loving Mullahs, clerics and Islamic governments. Those are indeed supposed to be "civilized" people and "nation states....Where are those voices?"
See any "muslim in the street" there?
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Actually, it is, if you look at Fox news they list some.
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please stop quoting neo-dowling, your ruining my ignore.
or at least just stick to the salient points. oh wait....
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I am so tempted to say, pack it up, fug these savages and let's bring the boys home. It ain't worth it. If these people want to live like animals, let them. But I realize if we don't fight them in Iraq, they'll be cutting the heads off people in my neighborhood soon enough.
Arab Media Play Down, Ignore Beheading
2 hours, 12 minutes ago
By ZEINA KARAM, Associated Press Writer
BEIRUT, Lebanon - Arab media reacted cautiously Wednesday to the videotaped beheading of an American civilian by Islamic militants in Iraq (news - web sites), with some newspapers conspicuously playing it down or even ignoring it.
The biggest pan-Arab satellite television channels broadcast an edited version of the gruesome video, not showing the actual killing of Nick Berg, 26, of West Chester, Pa., a Philadelphia suburb. The businessman was abducted in April.
In one of the most explicit displays, Kuwait's Al-Siyassah daily ran a photo of a masked militant holding up Berg's severed head.
The video of the execution was released on the Internet too late for some Middle East newspaper columnists to react to it. The killing, attributed to Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's group, appalled many Arabs.
Some opinion-makers condemned the killing.
"This shows how base and vile those who wear the robe of Islam have become," said Abdullah Sahar, a Kuwait University political scientist.
Some said it surpassed the American military's abuse of Iraqi prisoners in Abu Ghraib prison, which has been the top story for the past 10 days in the Middle East.
"We were winning international sympathy because of what happened at Abu Ghraib, but they come and waste it all," said Abdullah Sahar, a Kuwait University political scientist, said of the Islamic militants responsible.
In the video, the masked militants said they were taking revenge on Berg because of the abuses at the Baghdad prison.
Mustafa Bakri, editor of Al-Osboa weekly newspaper in Egypt, said Berg's death will only hurt efforts to expose American offenses against Iraqis.
"Such revenge is rejected," Bakri said of the execution. "The American administration will make use of such crimes just to cover their real crimes against Iraqis."
Bakri spoke as he took part in a Cairo demonstration by about 50 Egyptian journalists and lawyers against American human rights abuses in Iraq.
Al-Jazeera and Al-Arabiya, the big two satellite networks, aired carefully edited versions of the video. In Al-Arabiya's edit, a militant is seen drawing a knife and jerking Berg's body to one side. The rest is not shown.
"The news story itself is strong enough," said Jihad Ballout, spokesman for Qatar-based Al-Jazeera. "To show the actual beheading is out of the realm of decency."
Lebanon's private Al Hayat-LBC station led its bulletins Wednesday with the video. Its news presenter said: "We apologize to our viewers for not showing the entire tape because of the ugliness of the scene."
Kuwait state television broadcast the news of the execution late Tuesday but not the video.
Iraqi newspapers reported nothing about the killing, although it may have broken to late for them.
Egypt's leading daily, Al-Ahram, ignored the beheading Wednesday. Two other major pro-government newspapers ran news agency reports on their inside pages, without photos.
An Al-Ahram editor, Ahmed Reda, said the news came too late Tuesday night for the paper to confirm the video's authenticity with the U.S. government.
Newspapers in Syria, where the government controls the press tightly, did not report it at all.
A professor of journalism at the American University in Cairo, Hussein Amin, said the handling of the story by Egypt's pro-government papers was political and appropriate.
"I think that the government does not want to show this on the front page as a main item because it shows a very poor — poor is not the proper word; disgusting maybe is the better word — example of revenge," Amin said. "There is also the threat that it could be happening to other Americans. If they put it on the front page, (it could be seen as) they are favoring this kind of action."
Jordanian newspapers, state television and radio reported Berg's killing, but without commentary.
Most Lebanese newspapers, such as the left-wing As-Safir, published the report and a photograph of Berg sitting in front of the militants. As-Safir ran the headline: "Al-Zarqawi slaughters an American to avenge Iraqi prisoners."
In many Arab newspapers, the beheading received less display than the news of America's imposing sanctions on Syria and the killing of six Israeli soldiers in Gaza City.
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You still seem to be making the point that Muslims are somehow bound to a hierarchy in a similar way to how a US soldier is accountable to his superiors. That is senseless.
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I just hope Nicks sacrifice wakes up the pan arab world to the very real threat they face of annihilation.
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If you're talking to me, that's not my point.
I'm saying that there ARE...... well, supposed to be........ "civilized" or "responsible" or "peace-loving" leaders of Islam, both religious and secular leaders.
Yet NONE, as in NONE of these supposedly "civilized" or "responsible" or "peace-loving" leaders has publicly spoken out to condemn this act.
It's not because the world media has ignored such pronouncements.
It's because they aren't being made.
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Originally posted by Toad
Westy, I read the BBC and Reuters stories on it.
Note in both cases they have some comments from "the man on the street" and that this commentary is pretty equally divided saying "Bad thing" and "Americans deserve it". In short, it's a split decision from the man on the street.
I have yet to find a comment from a leading Mullah or Islamic Cleric in any Islamic country condemning this action. Where's the speech from the Mosque telling the faithful that this is an unconscionable act? No news of that....... and there probably won't be.
Where is the Fatwah isssued by some major Islamic cleric saying these people are an abomination in the eyes of Allah? Saying that they should be turned in by the faithful and punished?
Where is the condemnation by the government of any Islamic state saying these people are an embarassment to Muslims everywhere?
Got a link for any of those?
I've seen the mixed message from the "man on the Arab street". That's all that's out there as far as I know.
Nothing from the religious leaders of Islam or the "civilized" governments of the Arab world.
Well, on one hand people say the majority embrace us and want us there, then you show me this. Kind of contradicts that whole thought , no? We got saddam, we got his sons, their WMD are gone, so why are we there if they don't want us there? It's time to face facts, the majority don't like us, and would just as soon kill us than look at us. We got what we came for, let's go home. Rebuild Iraq, pffft, they got plenty of wealth in oil, let them rebuild it themselves. As a matter of fact I think they owe us for damages.
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I'm with Toad on this. I would like to see Arab leaders condemning the killing. The silence has been deafening. Arab leaders should be leading by example. I get the impression that they are sitting on the fence.
Dowding, I appreciate those Arab leaders may not be in control of the people who carried out the killing, but nobody is asking them to apologise or carry out investigations. A simple condemnation of the action would do.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Sixpence
the majority don't like us, and would just as soon kill us than look at us.
I think you're quite wrong there. There've been some links on this bbs to Iraqi blogs that state the opposite. But then, who'd believe that right? No doubt a CIA blog operation.
I am in receipt of email from two different special forces operatives that say the majority is glad to have us. One says that the locals regard the al-Sadr militia in much the same way US citizens viewed the Mafia in the '20's. Just a bunch of protection racket crooks that prey upon the common citizens.
But that's all propaganda too. Except, if you look, you can find other sources saying the same thing.
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Originally posted by ravells
Dowding, I appreciate those Arab leaders may not be in control of the people who carried out the killing, but nobody is asking them to apologise or carry out investigations. A simple condemnation of the action would do.
Ravs
Thanks, Ravs.
Much better said than I could do at present.
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Originally posted by Toad
I think you're quite wrong there. There've been some links on this bbs to Iraqi blogs that state the opposite. But then, who'd believe that right? No doubt a CIA blog operation.
I am in receipt of email from two different special forces operatives that say the majority is glad to have us. One says that the locals regard the al-Sadr militia in much the same way US citizens viewed the Mafia in the '20's. Just a bunch of protection racket crooks that prey upon the common citizens.
But that's all propaganda too. Except, if you look, you can find other sources saying the same thing.
Well, make up your mind
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When did I say otherwise?
Are you confusing me with someone else?
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"I think if any Muslim Cleric or government spoke out against this beheading it'd be front page news on every paper in the world. I believe you realize this as well."
Sure it would make the news. Just as would it would if Jesse Jackson, Jerry Falwell or the Pope condemned the murder too. They haven't either. So should I read into the absence of the same from them that they silently condone what the terrorists did too?
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Originally posted by Toad
When did I say otherwise?
Are you confusing me with someone else?
I think if any Muslim Cleric or government spoke out against this beheading it'd be front page news on every paper in the world. I believe you realize this as well. The idea that say...... the government of Iran spoke out against the beheading and it just didn't make CNN is laughable isn't it? The idea that say...... the Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani in Iraq condemned these killers and issued a Fatwah against them would go unreported by the BBC is also laughable, isn't it? The idea that the Grand Ayatollahs of the three greatest mosques in Islam, the Grand Mosque in Mecca, the Mosque of the Prophet in Medina, and al-Aqsa in Jerusalem all condemned these killers would go unreported in the world press is also laughable, no? Where is any condemnation other than the decidedly mixed opinion from the "muslim on the street"?
That seems to say "they all hate us", correct me if I am wrong. I don't know how else to take that.
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Jeez, Westy........ you're down to that? What a reach.
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Six,
It's not saying "they all hate us". There are "man in the street" inteviews that condemn this act from many Islamic countries.
What you don't see is a leader of the religion or of one of the governments stepping up and condemning it.
What do YOU make of that?
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Originally posted by Toad
Six,
It's not saying "they all hate us". There are "man in the street" inteviews that condemn this act from many Islamic countries.
What you don't see is a leader of the religion or of one of the governments stepping up and condemning it.
What do YOU make of that?
That they don't like us. I don't know how else to put it. It has been that way for centuries.
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I think there's more to it than that.
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In one of the most explicit displays, Kuwait's Al-Siyassah daily ran a photo of a masked militant holding up Berg's severed head.
What really disgusts me, is the same display shown on a on a well know German newspaper.
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Originally posted by Westy
"I think if any Muslim Cleric or government spoke out against this beheading it'd be front page news on every paper in the world. I believe you realize this as well."
Sure it would make the news. Just as would it would if Jesse Jackson, Jerry Falwell or the Pope condemned the murder too. They haven't either. So should I read into the absence of the same from them that they silently condone what the terrorists did too?
If the people cutting the victums head off did it while shouting, 'For the Glory of Christ" then I would expect a statement of condemnation from the church.
In this case, I expect said condemnation from the leaders of Islam, in who's name this man was publicly butchered.
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Originally posted by Toad
I think there's more to it than that.
Oh, there is alot more to it than that. Look, one of our main problems in the middle east is trust, they do not trust us. And they have good reasons, over the years past we(our government)(along with many aother governments) have tried to gain some kind of control over the area(puppet governments, etc.) Even if you want to argue that, that is the perception of arabs, so I think we can at least agree on the perception part.
Now all that is in the past, and that is a legit argument, we are here and now. But trust is not something you turn off and on, it is an emotion, and must be earned. Now I felt we were doing a good job on gaining trust, but recent events have thrown that all away. And I agree that it may have been a few that did it, but that's not the way they see it, and that is what is more important, the way they see it, it's their trust we need. I said it before, the longer we are there, the more anti-American sentiment will build, and to Bush's credit, he is sticking to his guns and holding fast to the June 30th deadline. We got what we came for, we got saddam, we got his sons, we cleared out the WMD. If they don't want us there I have no problem bringing the boys home, let them kill each other, not us.
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Did a quick google search, and couldn't find any Arab leaders directly quoted as condemning the prisoner atrocities either. Perhaps someone can find something.
Why are they being so quiet about the Berg killing? The only conclusion I can come to is because they may feel that the statement of condemnation may be unpopular amongst a significant proportion of their own people - which, if it is true, is a pity.
Ravs
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Six, we can't leave now. There's that issue of trust. We did those things you said but we also promised to rebuild the country and give them a shot at governing themselves without a civil war to determine the leadership.
I think there's two basic reasons you won't hear anything from the Islamic leadership.
One: Some of them do indeed dislike us intensely. They have no condemnation to give over this killing. They support it in their hearts.
Two: What Ravs said. There are some decent folks in positions of power but they are afraid to speak out. For fear of losing influence, for fear of losing position or power. To me, this is worse than the folks in case One. If Islamic leaders are too fearful to condemn such an act for fear their followers will turn on them or that they will bring down A-Q upon themselves, well, they aren't much in the way of "leaders" then are the? They're followers and they're letting the most violent of their religion "lead" the way.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Some might say that God is a terrorist. I might actually think about it but I suspect that God is whatever anyone wants God to be.
There's only one God Yeag:)
Hope you're doin well....we all miss ya
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To the usual suspects:
Why, for the love of Allah, does the following hold true?
Young man with a rifle shoots prarie dogs infront of a camera. You cry out 'an act of unspeakable cruelty!' and chant for his death at the hands of mutant bears.
Young man with a knife cuts off the head of another human being infront of a camera. You attempt to justify his actions.
May you live in interesting times, as they say.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Im reminded of a story in Acts about how a old man volunteered to sell ALL his belongings to give the money to Peter (I think it was Peter). But the old man kept some money for himself and lied about it. Just then Peter humiliated the old man and God smite the old man and killed him right there on the spot. Then the wife, an old women came to Peter hours later and Peter asked the old women if she knew what the old man had done with the money, the old women lied and said no and God killed her too, right then and there. This was the story where I put the book down.
Read chapter 4 as well Yeag.
What you may think is right or wrong may not be the issue at hand. Just remember....God will not be mocked....by any of us. There is alot at stake thru the events unfolding in our lives...it's not a game nor is it just history.
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Best I could do Toad with the small, moving target you and a few others want hit. I don't think you're going to get headlines copies of anyone's apology or condemnation of this guys murder. You want to stew in some kind of pseudo-indignation then have at it. I don't have time left today, nor the care to at this point, to change your mind.
"Young man with a knife cuts off the head of another human being infront of a camera. You attempt to justify his actions."
I don't think this was aimed at me but I'll reply anyway. I don't see anyone trying to show justification in anyway. I keep seeing that assinine accusation pop up here and on AGW and it's become as bad as the idiotic over-use of the word "terrorist"
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Yeah, Westy.. like it's totally unrealistic to expect the authority figures of Islam or of the governments of Islamic countries to condemn this act.
Well, I guess it is to some people. To others worldwide, the Islamic silence on this issue is deafening.
But hey, I don't blame you for getting out of the thread.
It's tough to defend their silence....... as you've shown.
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Originally posted by Toad
Six, we can't leave now. There's that issue of trust. We did those things you said but we also promised to rebuild the country and give them a shot at governing themselves without a civil war to determine the leadership.
Right, but that was with the assumption we would have their support. Why the hell should we rebuild Iraq if we can't get any support from it's leaders? If the anti-American sentiment grows, and the killings continue w/o any support, then screw em, let them sort it out themselves. Either they are with us, or they are not, if they are not, cya.
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It's not unrealistic. Never said it was.
"It's tough to defend their silence....... as you've shown."
No need to be an arse Toad. I'm not defending anything done, or not, by anyone. The only thing you could possibly misconstrue (not that YOU would ever do that) as defending anyone is giving the Arba world the benefit of the doubt DUE TO THE TIME ZONE difference.
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i have never agreed with this war.
America seems to always stick its nose where it doesn't belong.
Sure people everywhere are worried about terroist and bombs and etc..
And i totaly agree that beheading a person and mistreetment of prisoners does not justify anything
But we can not blame everyone for a few mistakes.
There are good people over there and bombing all of them only will cause for further hate.
and the circle of hate will continue..
its got to stop somewhere..
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Originally posted by ravells
Why are they being so quiet about the Berg killing? The only conclusion I can come to is because they may feel that the statement of condemnation may be unpopular amongst a significant proportion of their own people - which, if it is true, is a pity.
Ravs
Agree with Ravs, and, partially, with Toad.
Strange, but true.
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Originally posted by Westy
It's not unrealistic. Never said it was.
"It's tough to defend their silence....... as you've shown."
No need to be an arse Toad. I'm not defending anything done, or not, by anyone. The only thing you could possibly misconstrue (not that YOU would ever do that) as defending anyone is giving the Arba world the benefit of the doubt DUE TO THE TIME ZONE difference.
So you're basically saying that given some more time, condemnation by the Arab world is forthcoming?
How long should we all wait?
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Originally posted by Dowding
Clearly irony is not your strong point. Or reading comprehension, for that matter.
I said the US and its agents have to be held accountable for its actions, if it is to claim the moral high ground. I did not say the people responsible for murder and mistreatment were typical of the US servicemen or civilians - but they are representatives and as such should be brought to justice so that the reputation of the US is not brought into disrepute. I'm sure that will be the case. Otherwise the actions of this minority will seen to be an acceptable facet of American culture/behaviour.
My reading comprehension is fine thanks. It is your capacity for logic that seems to be short here. Let me spell it out for you; You are calling the very few servicemen/women representatives of the US while claiming that the Muslim "soldiers" are not representative of Islam. Your bias and ignorance are showing.
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Originally posted by Westy
No need to be an arse Toad.
Seems we agree then.
As for your "defense"...... well, as I look at your posts, they consist mostly of either "proof" that a few Islamic "men in the street" did indeed condemn this act or reasons why the "responsible Islamic leaders" haven't commented.
What would you call that approach to this subject?
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I think we'll see leaders of Islam come forth to condem this... it just hasn't happen yet.
They have to. It goes against what they claim their relgion is all about... they'll need to distance themselves
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I wonder if the people who performed this atrocity truly appreciate how it affects your typical U.S citizen or soldier.
It doesn't scare us,it just enrages us.
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"What would you call that approach to this subject?"
My approach was more of offering explanations than any kind of defense. By trying to point out to the indignant (more than just you) that there indeed were more than a "few" Arabs who were disgusted by what happened and that posts here calling for Arab public condemnations were made when it was in the middle of the night over there.
Is it that hard to shed the cut & dry, black OR white, "with us or against us" attitude?
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Rememeber Islam Is peace!
Yeah right !! now someone pull my finger.
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Ah, an explanation. OK.
Let's see.. this came out Tuesday and hit all the headlines.
So, how long would be a reasonable period to wait before we should expect to hear a condemnation of the act from either leading Ayatollahs or Mullahs and the political leadership of the prominent Islamic countries in the area like Iran, Syria, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, et al?
In your opinion, of course.
I'm willing to wait........ how long do you think would be reasonable?
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From what I can find here: http://www.allied-media.com/aljazeera/index.htm Al Jazeera isn't even carrying the story. Where are you finding these expressions of outrage among Muslim leaders over this murder Westy?
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Originally posted by Westy
"What would you call that approach to this subject?"
My approach was more of offering explanations than any kind of defense. By trying to point out to the indignant (more than just you) that there indeed were more than a "few" Arabs who were disgusted by what happened and that posts here calling for Arab public condemnations were made when it was in the middle of the night over there.
Is it that hard to shed the cut & dry, black OR white, "with us or against us" attitude?
Please define, "a few".....then compare that to the more than a few who voiced their distaste of the conduct by our MP's towards Iraqi prisoners here in the US.
Then if ya want, respond to my first post to you.
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Oh, yeah........ how long should I expect to wait for the posters in the "American abuse" threads that so vociferously condemned the US, its soldiers and its leaders to drop by here and condemn this beheading?
Any guideline on that?
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Thats NEO-WESTY tyvm
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I'm shocked that the leading Muslim religious authorities have not condemned this. If it was just a beheading or another murder maybe I could undrestant their silenve. But it wasnt.
They were yelling "GOD IS GREAT" as they slowly cut off a living mans head. They were chanting "GOD IS GREAT" as this defenseless innocent man was screaming in agony. They were chanting "GO IS GREAT" as his last breath gurgleed out through the blood of his severed windpipe. They were chanting "GOD IS GREAT" as they lifted up his severed head....
Ravells is right. The selence is defeanining.
However the bizzare defense and marginalization of thes ascts by some on the left is even more stunning....
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Originally posted by Toad
Westy, I read the BBC and Reuters stories on it.
Note in both cases they have some comments from "the man on the street" and that this commentary is pretty equally divided saying "Bad thing" and "Americans deserve it". In short, it's a split decision from the man on the street.
What do you mean by "American diserve it"
Occupants are occupants, so they deserve what occupants deserve.
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Originally posted by txmx
Rememeber Islam Is peace!
Yeah right !! now someone pull my finger.
Hmmm.... I seem to remember hearing about times in history that the same thing could be said about Christianity.
Islam doesn't have the market cornered on having people warp their religion to justify their crazed ideals.
This is NOT about religion. whether those animals say it is or not. They killed that man because of their political views... plain and simple
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"So you're basically saying that given some more time,condemnation by the Arab world is forthcoming? How long should we all wait?"
I'd say there might. I'm not anti-Muslim or Arab so I'm not denying them the benefit of the doubt. I'd hope to see some but how long should you wait? Seeing as you're not I cannot answer that. Only you could.
"Let's see.. this came out Tuesday and hit all the headlines....how long do you think would be reasonable?"
It hit the WESTERN headlines; the BBC, Foxnews, Reuters etc. which are all "7X24" on the web as well as broadcast. When I was looking for Arab reaction yesterday and last night there was nothing anywhere (that could even be reached) Today at least there is. As for how long to wait. See above. But don't hold your breath. There was a lack of secular condemnation on the web, in print and tv when Pearl was murdered too.
"Please define, "a few"...."
A few today is a lot more than the none being noted yesterday.
"then compare that to the more than a few who voiced their distaste of the conduct by our MP's towards Iraqi prisoners here in the US. "
Why? Are the expectactions of American servicemen behavior more or less than those for a people from a tribal culture that hasn't changed much since the 7th century?
"Thats NEO-WESTY tyvm
Atypical Yeager non-contribution.
They killed that man because of their political views... plain and simple]
Absolutely. The same people (or type - Islamic extremists) did this to Pearl in Pakistan.
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I actually am taking a liking to NEOism.
I am a NEOist!
LONG LIVE THE NEO!!!!!
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Originally posted by Monk
What really disgusts me, is the same display shown on a on a well know German newspaper.
seriously i have no clue, why does that disgusts you ?
its part of reality isnt it ?
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So, there's plenty of time to get the reaction of the "Muslim on the street" in many countries but there's just been no time to ask someone in either a religious or governmental leadership position?
And there's no 24/7 news services in Arab lands? It was on AlJazeera about 10 hours ago and they've got "man in the street" reaction already.
I guess this is such a complicated issue... beheading a civilian ... that the leadership has to go into deep thought about whether or not they should say it's bad?
As for how long to wait. See above. But don't hold your breath. There was a lack of secular condemnation on the web, in print and tv when Pearl was murdered too.
[/b]
It would seem you realize what's going to happen even as you "explain" the non-action taken so far.
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Hey... I just thought of something (surprise!)
There are people that don't think that Bush has any responsiblity to apologize for the mis-treatment of iraqi prisoners. The thinking there is that he was not in the direct chain of command NOR was he one of the individuals. So why should he.
OK.... if none of the Islam Leaders were directly involved in the beheading, why do they have to say anything about it? They didn't have anything to do with it... right? They don't owe anyone anything....... right?
I think that they should because they need to distance themselves from the act that the animals did in allah's name but, what does it have to do with them besides that?
Just because they don't say anything about it, doesn't mean that they support it. In our own country, our politicians always jump at the chance to get on a soup box to admonish something that everyone obviously thinks is terrible... but that isn't the only way to handle it.
edit... i'm not sure how vocal they have been about mistreatment of iraqi prisoners but if they have been screaming about how terrible it is... then HELL YA THEY SHOULD SPEAK UP ABOUT THIS!!!!
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Originally posted by mosgood
There are people that don't think that Bush has any responsiblity to apologize for the mis-treatment of iraqi prisoners.
Really? Who are they? Any examples?
Clearly, Bush thought he had to apoloize, because he did.
They killed that man because of their political views... plain and simple
[/b]
Well, yes. But you don't dispute the fact that in that region, the religion is completely entertwined with the state? For example, you agree that both Iran and Taliban Afghanistan are/were Islamic States that use the Qu'ran as the ultimate source of political authority and civil law?
So, in this case, their "politics" is Islam itself?
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That video basically said:
We are killing this man for god.
If the big Islamic authorities dont condemn it, I may peronally have to seriouly rethink my long held positive stance on the current staus of Islam in general.
This is one of those moments when they have an opportunity to show their true colors and hwt they really stand for.
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They killed that man because of their political views... plain and simple
The fact that you think this is ok because of political views makes me sick. Charles Manson had people killed because of his political views. I suppose his actions are then justified as well?
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Yes. There's always plenty of time to get "man on the street" comments as all you have to do is stop one on a sidewalk or pose a question on the web as the BBC has. But as to there not having been time to ask religious or government leaders how do you know they have not?
As for 24/7 arab news? Yeah. Al Jazereera (Foxnews for the Arabs) is the only one I find that offers an English version and even then while many claim they are the most "middle of the road" as far as Arab news goes I find them to be extremely biased. Might as well look to Pravda for the truth too. So I don't look for news there with any hope of objectivity. That Al Jazeera did not lace the report with an anti-American slant or Islamic extremist spin was a surprise. However from home last night and al ltoday most links I've tried to reach for other Middle Eastern news websites is extremely slow or outright unreachable.
Anyway. I'd offered possible explanations. You've drummed your fingers with dramatic impatience. Once again Toad & Westy won't see eye to eye. Nothing new.
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Originally posted by Steve
The fact that you think this is ok because of political views makes me sick.
I never said that it's ok for any reason. Where do you see that?
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"I never said that it's ok for any reason. Where do you see that?"
See my earlier definition of neanderthal-con. I'd add to that they instinctually put words in your mouth or at a bare minimum completely distort what you say..
(speaking of where's Marlet and Hortlund)
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Patience is my middle name.
However, I know and I think you know that these condemnations from Islamic authority figures isn't coming, no matter how long you or I wait.
Lastly, they can stick a mike in the face of Abdul on the street but it's beyond the ability of a major, respected news organization to call Government HQ or the most famous Mosque in all Islam and attempt to get the views of the leadership?
Even if they have to say "we called but the government/ayatolla had no comment at this time"?
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Originally posted by Toad
Really? Who are they? Any examples?
Clearly, Bush thought he had to apoloize, because he did.
{qutoe]They killed that man because of their political views... plain and simple[/quote
Well, yes. But you don't dispute the fact that in that region, the religion is completely entertwined with the state? For example, you agree that both Iran and Taliban Afghanistan are/were Islamic States that use the Qu'ran as the ultimate source of political authority and civil law?
So, in this case, their "politics" is Islam itself?
man you are non educated lame, whitch know nothing about Iranian, Afghan law....
so be quite, coz you are far away from reality.
Since your president call God name on every second public speach, we should probably consider Iraq and Afghanistan to be Crusade war, by your logic...
Go and study some of ME political system before you post sutch things
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
This is one of those moments when they have an opportunity to show their true colors and hwt they really stand for.
It is, but they dont need you public opinion do they ?
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Originally posted by lada
It is, but they dont need you public opinion do they ?
But you see its much more about them and who they are and what they stand for than it is about my opinion...
But again why are you marginalizing this whole thing?
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Hizbollah Slams Beheading of American as Un-Islamic
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group condemned Wednesday the beheading of an American hostage by Iraqi militants as an ugly crime that flouted the tenets of Islam.
"Hizbollah condemns this horrible act that has done very great harm to Islam and Muslims by this group that claims affiliation to the religion of mercy, compassion and humane principles," the Shi'ite Muslim group said in a statement.
An Islamist Web site Tuesday carried a video clip of the execution of the man who identified himself as Nick Berg, with a statement saying a group linked to al Qaeda did it in revenge for the abuse of Iraqis by U.S. troops.
Hizbollah said Berg's killing had diverted the world's gaze from an escalating furor over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by occupation soldiers.
"The timing of this act that overshadowed the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in occupation forces prisons is suspect timing that aims to serve the American administration and occupation forces in Iraq and present excuses and pretexts for their inhumane practices against Iraqi detainees."
The Syrian-backed group which the United States deems "terrorist" said the executors' behavior was closer to "the Pentagon school -- the school of killing and occupation and crimes and torture and immoral practices that were exposed by the great scandal in occupation prisons."
Washington blames Hizbollah, whose attacks forced Israeli troops to withdraw from south Lebanon in 2000 after a 22-year occupation, for 1980s suicide bombings against its embassy and Marines barracks and the abduction of Westerners in Beirut
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Try to understand the mentality of the people who would do such atrocities as hacking a head off of a man? Even in the most jingoistic sense, wouldn't this understanding assist our cause.
"Know your enemy and you can defeat him."
I just wonder why the simple act of pointing out that others may have a completely different view of World events causes such hatred.
Peace........ ya buncha knubskulls!
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Lada,
So you're going to say the Taliban in Afghanistan did not use the Qu'ran as the law of the state?
Iran in the same fashion to a lesser degree?
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Toad I was expecting to see some at some point. Not as much nor quickly given as you and a few others have expected. But certainly not because others have been so condemning of the Us and UK for prisoner abuses. But I also suspect the worst of their lot would simply do so to gain PR "points" and try to gain some "moral" ground (as I see in Muckmaws post while I was typing this reply out)
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Originally posted by muckmaw
Hizbollah Slams Beheading of American as Un-Islamic
BEIRUT (Reuters) - Lebanon's Hizbollah guerrilla group condemned Wednesday the beheading of an American hostage by Iraqi militants as an ugly crime that flouted the tenets of Islam.
"Hizbollah condemns this horrible act that has done very great harm to Islam and Muslims by this group that claims affiliation to the religion of mercy, compassion and humane principles," the Shi'ite Muslim group said in a statement.
An Islamist Web site Tuesday carried a video clip of the execution of the man who identified himself as Nick Berg, with a statement saying a group linked to al Qaeda did it in revenge for the abuse of Iraqis by U.S. troops.
Hizbollah said Berg's killing had diverted the world's gaze from an escalating furor over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by occupation soldiers.
"The timing of this act that overshadowed the scandal over the abuse of Iraqi prisoners in occupation forces prisons is suspect timing that aims to serve the American administration and occupation forces in Iraq and present excuses and pretexts for their inhumane practices against Iraqi detainees."
The Syrian-backed group which the United States deems "terrorist" said the executors' behavior was closer to "the Pentagon school -- the school of killing and occupation and crimes and torture and immoral practices that were exposed by the great scandal in occupation prisons."
Washington blames Hizbollah, whose attacks forced Israeli troops to withdraw from south Lebanon in 2000 after a 22-year occupation, for 1980s suicide bombings against its embassy and Marines barracks and the abduction of Westerners in Beirut
Something about this statement seems very surreal...... :confused:
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MT, you know that we can not tolerate people acting, talking and living differently. That would be a Non-Conservative idea. Please report for political re-education.
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Perhaps the true problem is that the mentality of the people who would do such atrocities as hacking a head off of a man is understood all too well.
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Well, as I said. I'm a patient man. I suspect, however, that one will require unending patience in this case.
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Mr. Berg's death at the hands of barbarians is, in the grander scheme of things, a very minor event. With respect to his family and friends who I am sure are suffering through an unbelievable tragedy, his is, simply put, a casualty of war.
But the question that keeps popping into my mind is this: Where your primary enemy has no concern for his casualties, has the tacit support of the local population, and is willing to commit crimes which no one in the Western world could ever imagine, do you actually think that this "war" can ever be won?
The same old story. All the battles will be won, but the war will be lost (or at least not won). Frankly, my view is that no U.S. Administration has ever understood their enemy when it comes to terrorists, and they still don't understand their enemy. For whatever reason the United States still doesn't understand that you cannot defeat an enemy that so willingly takes the lives of others while at the same time is so willing to give their own lives.
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rpm371
As if you can be a judge of tolerance?
You are just as bad as the righties here, you just happend to be left.
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MT
Were did you get the idea that no one wants to learn about whats going on with these guys? I always though the best way to beat someone was to get in their head?
Did I miss a thread?
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Didn't look like "hacking" to me looked more like they SAWED his head off
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
MT
Were did you get the idea that no one wants to learn about whats going on with these guys? I always though the best way to beat someone was to get in their head?
Did I miss a thread?
Well ... sort of. I've been Skuzzedited. I started a new thread but Skuzzy decided it belonged here I guess. I was acually commenting on this thread AND the one GRUN started about Nash.
Ahh well. It's Skuzzy's board.
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:( :mad:
Hard to find words.
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Originally posted by MJHerman
you cannot defeat an enemy that so willingly takes the lives of others while at the same time is so willing to give their own lives.
the animals that beheaded that american wore masks.....doesn't look to me that they were willingly giving their owns lives.
Personaly, I think that the only victory we can achieve in Iraq will be when we pull out, leaving a government in place. After that, it's not our responsiblity. The Iraqis HAVE to take ownership of thier own country and be responsible for how it turns out. If it falls to hell again and they allow another tyrant to brutalize them (most likely), than that's their lot in life until the country as a whole rises up and takes care of thier own business.
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Well that was confusing as all heck!
lol I thought your thread got deleted!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
However the bizzare defense and marginalization of thes ascts by some on the left is even more stunning....
The "Left" hasnt marginalized this tragic murder. You are beginning to sound like a Rush puppet.
Now we do agree that the silence from the leaders and moderates in that part of the world is deafening.
Im wondering if there really is a sizable moderate population in Araby at all.
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" I suspect, however, that one will require unending patience in this case."
If they don't I'll apologize. But even Bush didn't make a statement till this afternoon about Berg.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040512-2.html
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Like I said, I'm patient.
Like you, I'm still waiting on the condemnation of the Pearl murder.
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Originally posted by MJHerman
Mr. Berg's death at the hands of barbarians is, in the grander scheme of things, a very minor event. With respect to his family and friends who I am sure are suffering through an unbelievable tragedy, his is, simply put, a casualty of war.
But the question that keeps popping into my mind is this: Where your primary enemy has no concern for his casualties, has the tacit support of the local population, and is willing to commit crimes which no one in the Western world could ever imagine, do you actually think that this "war" can ever be won?
The same old story. All the battles will be won, but the war will be lost (or at least not won). Frankly, my view is that no U.S. Administration has ever understood their enemy when it comes to terrorists, and they still don't understand their enemy. For whatever reason the United States still doesn't understand that you cannot defeat an enemy that so willingly takes the lives of others while at the same time is so willing to give their own lives.
First off we can't start minimizing a brutal MURDER cause thats what it was. Not a causualty of war. This man was a innocent civilian trying to help the very people that murdered him.
second: with their faces covered it didn't seem like they were to ready to give up their lives
Third: i think the U.S. administration does understand the enemy they just aren't willing to sink to that barbaric, cruel and inhumane level
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Originally posted by Westy
" I suspect, however, that one will require unending patience in this case."
If they don't I'll apologize. But even Bush didn't make a statement till this afternoon about Berg.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/05/20040512-2.html
I have no doubt that you will be a great aplogist for the terrorists!
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I've noticed a couple of threads in here that refer to "we always stick our nose where it doesn't belong" and "We shouldn't be over there" etc....etc....
Hummmm Lets see.
WWI we were not attacked on our soil.
WWII we were not attacked on our soil
Korea we were not attacked on our soil
Nam we were not attacked on our soil
Desert Storm we were not attacked on our soil
9-11 we WERE attacked on our soil and we chased the cowards right to Iraq.....seems to me George called the war over way too soon. We should have leveled the place then called it over.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I actually am taking a liking to NEOism.
I am a NEOist!
LONG LIVE THE NEO!!!!!
I know Kung Fu.
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Originally posted by koda76
I've noticed a couple of threads in here that refer to "we always stick our nose where it doesn't belong" and "We shouldn't be over there" etc....etc....
Hummmm Lets see.
WWI we were not attacked on our soil.
WWII we were not attacked on our soil
Korea we were not attacked on our soil
Nam we were not attacked on our soil
Desert Storm we were not attacked on our soil
9-11 we WERE attacked on our soil and we chased the cowards right to Iraq.....seems to me George called the war over way too soon. We should have leveled the place then called it over.
It's Afghanistan, mate, Afghanistan.
Iraq have to be another row in your post.
P.S.
WW2 you were attacked, already forgot Pearl Harbor?
Hallywuud made a couple of movies on it too.
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"I know Kung Fu"
Well ever meat his brother Pork Chop?!
"WWII we were not attacked on our soil"
Right! I mean when the Germans nuked the Peruvian airforce into oblivion at San Pearl Harbor what did that have to do with us? But we fought anyway!
"9-11 we WERE attacked on our soil and we chased the cowards right to Iraq....."
Yeehaw. Now yer talk'n. that you Belushi? Anyway. I *always* thought Afghanistan was a ruse. I just had this sixth sense it was a red herring.
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Sorry but iraq got nothin to do with 9-11.
Bush had more link to alquida (financial) than saddam ever did.
don't understand me wrong
I hope the allied get these cruel barbarians and just kill em,
they don't need to be captured and they don't deserve any fair trial.
This Berg wasn't even a soldier a civilian with the heart on the good place. He helped on projects in africa for instance.
These murderers don't even have the guts to get a real US soldier.
They must have been very frustrated and Berg a litle naive. I guess it's hard to imagine what it is to be there especialy from my computer chair. These photos from iraq prisoners where very stupid.
But this act is the mother of stupidity itself.
I'm afraid this could become a problem wich if escalates never can be solved by outsideforce.
History always has proven that a country has to go his natural own way. An good example is the formerly sovjet union. I hope the mainstream iraq people wants what the alied want.
I hope heart can be won if not it's gonna be a bigger problem.
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rabid animals - and should be treated as such - put out of their miserable existence
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No I didn't forget peal harbor....that was a military installation on an island that was not on american soil......today it is as it is now a state.
Facts are facts sometimes they don't look right but hey thats what makes the world go round.
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No I didn't forget pearl harbor....that was a military installation on an island that was not on american soil......today it is as it is now a state.
Facts are facts sometimes they don't look right but hey thats what makes the world go round.
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Hawaii was American territory.
facts are facts
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So we wern't involved in a war until Pearl Harbor.....fact is is wasn't part of the united states...call it what you want facts are facts
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So we wern't involved in a war until Pearl Harbor.....fact is is wasn't part of the united states...call it what you want facts are facts
Speechless.
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They are not civilized people. They kill our civilians and Italy's and they film the deaths to show the world how great and powerful they are. They pose in the video's like excited school children. They show how they would act if they had the power.
I wish that a US leader would vow revenge. I wish it was politically correct and acceptable to vow to kill 10 for evey American that is killed. I wish the US would make an example of them.
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Alright! Frogman is back!
S! "Koda"
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Originally posted by Eagler
rabid animals - and should be treated as such - put out of their miserable existence
Lowering ourselves to their level makes us not better then they are eagler. Plus it makes Jesus cry:(
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Originally posted by koda76
So we wern't involved in a war until Pearl Harbor.....fact is is wasn't part of the united states...call it what you want facts are facts
Did you pay attention in high school?
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This crap just makes me sick. Al Qaeda animals murdering an innocent civilian in cold blood on television. It's about time that the US takes off the white gloves and get rid of these knuckleheads. I wish our nation's leaders didn't have the "most compassionate fighting force in the world" mentality. Sometimes, you just want to stop playing Mr. Nice Guy and start kicking arse....For me, this is one of those times. An innocent guy gets slaughtered like a pig and we're still playing patty cake with these bastids:mad: When will it ever stop?
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Originally posted by Habu
I wish it was politically correct and acceptable to vow to kill 10 for evey American that is killed. I wish the US would make an example of them.
Yes, round up some random Iraqis and put them on short stakes. That'll show them that we mean business when it comes to freeing people from psychopathic dictators.
Regardless of who does it, that should never be acceptable
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and dont forget! the US Pacific fleet did in fact belong to the US.
Proof that the education system in the US is hurting.
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Originally posted by SoulzofAW3
This crap just makes me sick. Al Qaeda animals murdering an innocent civilian in cold blood on television. It's about time that the US takes off the white gloves and get rid of these knuckleheads. I wish our nation's leaders didn't have the "most compassionate fighting force in the world" mentality. Sometimes, you just want to stop playing Mr. Nice Guy and start kicking arse....For me, this is one of those times. An innocent guy gets slaughtered like a pig and we're still playing patty cake with these bastids:mad: When will it ever stop?
Identifying the correct "bastids" is somewhat problematic. Of course, we could just kill every brown-skinned sand****** we can find. How about that?
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Originally posted by Sandman
Identifying the correct "bastids" is somewhat problematic. Of course, we could just kill every brown-skinned sand****** we can find. How about that?
Do you think they would take the time to identify us and see who's who if they had the chance to kill? Not a chance in hell buddy. Maybe I'm just a tad bit ticked off by that video, but it's getting frustrating to see us fighting the "fair fight" while they slaughter American civilians like animals.
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When you figure out how to discern between the resistance fighters and the oppressed people that we're there to liberate, you be sure and let us know.
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Originally posted by SoulzofAW3
...it's getting frustrating to see us fighting the "fair fight" while they slaughter American civilians like animals.
Ah fer chrissakes pull yer head outta the SAND, mate. It's the Middle East! Of course there's gonna be sword-play. What didja expect?
(http://www.vermontcrossroads.com/art/photos/mt_independence.jpg)
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Originally posted by Nash
Ah fer chrissakes pull yer head outta the SAND, mate. It's the Middle East! Of course there's gonna be sword-play. What didja expect?
(http://www.vermontcrossroads.com/art/photos/mt_independence.jpg)
mmmmmm.... Nash's Avatar....
I'm still waiting for the link to the website, BTW.
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I am not the least bit surprised that a gang of these thugs would slice someones head off while they were alive to experience it.
Remember when a couple of these fellas flew 767s loaded with innocent passengers, women and children, into skyscrapers.
Just tag em and bag em. in the short term thats all that can be done. Long term is to bring these barbarians, by love, candy, force...whatever, into the civilized world, whether they like it or not, the jig is up.
Good news is we have the capability to zap these bastards. Maybe not on schedule but zap them we are. Everyday SF guys and other specialized forces are putting these animals into petre dishes for DNA analysis. Fight the good fight and if you cant seem to figure out who the good guys are then maybe you need to be petre dished.
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Coming soon to a middle east near you, The Crusades Part IV.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Good news is we have the capability to zap these bastards. Maybe not on schedule but zap them we are. Everyday SF guys and other specialized forces are putting these animals into petre dishes for DNA analysis. Fight the good fight and if you cant seem to figure out who the good guys are then maybe you need to be petre dished.
If I may be so bold....
Zapping and petre dishes?
You are starting to lose your mind Yeager. In a satisfyingly interesting way, however... No pink triangles for you. Yer gonna go down fighting. I sense this.
I mean, it all points to some kind of armageddon with you.
I totally dig it.
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Coming soon to a middle east near you, The Crusades Part IV.
They started on Sept. 11.... just didn't get announced.
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Who wouldn't want to go out fighting?
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Originally posted by SavedSaint
And i totaly agree that beheading a person and mistreetment of prisoners does not justify anything
But we can not blame everyone for a few mistakes.
There are good people over there and bombing all of them only will cause for further hate.
LOL Ok If you say so.
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Originally posted by Steve
They started on Sept. 11.... just didn't get announced.
Oh yeah... I keep forgetting about those Iraqi hijackers.
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Originally posted by Sandman
Oh yeah... I keep forgetting about those Iraqi hijackers.
PC Loadletter? What the **** does that mean?
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Well, yer excused for that sorta oversight, Sandman. Yer from Cali, afterall, and it's teaming with the walking dead zombie types I hear.
What's everyone else's excuse?
My guess? Much the same as the way I want to block out the things that disturb me, don't fit. Do not fit my world view, and not in my realm of reality.
Baaaahhhhhh.
Yes NEVAR FORGET THE IRAQI 911!
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Originally posted by Sandman
When you figure out how to discern between the resistance fighters and the oppressed people that we're there to liberate, you be sure and let us know.
Oh thats an easy one.
The resistance fighters are the ones with the big YELLOW strip running down there backs.:aok
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Originally posted by Sandman
Oh yeah... I keep forgetting about those Iraqi hijackers.
Guess you forgot they tried to steal our Kuwaiti oil too. ;)
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Originally posted by AKIron
Guess you forgot they tried to steal our Kuwaiti oil too. ;)
Bush 41 handled that rather well, IIRC.
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You are starting to lose your mind Yeager. In a satisfyingly interesting way
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Combination of aging and alcohol
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Originally posted by Yeager
Combination of aging and alcohol
On a school night?
We are not worthy. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman
Bush 41 handled that rather well, IIRC.
He asked his son to finish the job properly. Soon, the job will be done.
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Oh yeah... I keep forgetting about those Iraqi hijackers.
I never said anything about crusading against Iraqi's. Really really poor liberal ploy though... it's been tried way too much... move on to something else.
You may not like it, but the war on Iraq means the terrorists that are in the area are fighting armed soldiers, for the most part, instead of our civilians here or abroad. We've no doubt killed thousands of people who would kill us, merely because we are American.
Sandman, I know you find it disturbing that we don't wait on our own soil and let them blow us all up. You must prefer this as you have never offered a solution to our problem other than to be critical of our efforts.
I'm thankful that you are not in power, it means the U.S. has a chance to survive.
You can spout that Al Queda and Iraq had nothing in common but anyone that isn't too busy hating our President knows that there was an Al Queda base in Northern Iraq and a jet fuselage for hijack training near Baghdad. Try to cast aside your unfounded hate and see this for what it is, it's the opening moves in a fight for survival, w/ radical islam on one side and the West(viewed as Christian) on the other.
If we lose, if we pull back, the entirety of the U.S. will be a happy hunting ground for terrorists, eventually.
Maybe you are unaware that terrorists have been killing Americans for years and we didn't do anything about it. Example: U.S.S Cole, our embassies, the first WTC.
We are finally fighting back. I know you don't want us to go after those that would kill us, you'd rather we stuck our collective head in the sand and just express impotent horror every time the blew up an American or 3000.
Yes, I am thankful people like you are not in power.
Clinton ignored the problem for 8 years. He was really popular here and abroad... that mattered to him above all else.
The cost of his ego massaging policies is that we are way behind in this war of survival. Like I said it's the ealry stages of the war, but I hope you one day learn that this is indeed that, a war of survival, and I hope you learn it before it is upon your doorstep.
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I suppose that next you'll try and convince us that we're safer today than we were on Sept. 10, 2001.
Okey dokey...
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Contrary to modern PC thinking I always thought the Muslims provoked the Crusades, kinda like today. One of those things that may be resolved only when there are none left to fight?
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Originally posted by Yeager
Combination of aging and alcohol
Nah you don't fool me. :)
There's a whole twist thing going on. The reason I like Eagler so much is that he's not only a decent guy, but he stands firm in his beliefs. Unwavering despite it all.
In short stabs here and there at the canvass, you're starting to paint a picture. It gets more and more fleshed out with each and every post.
What's up man? :)
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Originally posted by Steve
I never said anything about crusading against Iraqi's. Really really poor liberal ploy though... it's been tried way too much... move on to something else.
You may not like it, but the war on Iraq means the terrorists that are in the area are fighting armed soldiers, for the most part, instead of our civilians here or abroad. We've no doubt killed thousands of people who would kill us, merely because we are American.
Sandman, I know you find it disturbing that we don't wait on our own soil and let them blow us all up. You must prefer this as you have never offered a solution to our problem other than to be critical of our efforts.
I'm thankful that you are not in power, it means the U.S. has a chance to survive.
You can spout that Al Queda and Iraq had nothing in common but anyone that isn't too busy hating our President knows that there was an Al Queda base in Northern Iraq and a jet fuselage for hijack training near Baghdad. Try to cast aside your unfounded hate and see this for what it is, it's the opening moves in a fight for survival, w/ radical islam on one side and the West(viewed as Christian) on the other.
If we lose, if we pull back, the entirety of the U.S. will be a happy hunting ground for terrorists, eventually.
Maybe you are unaware that terrorists have been killing Americans for years and we didn't do anything about it. Example: U.S.S Cole, our embassies, the first WTC.
We are finally fighting back. I know you don't want us to go after those that would kill us, you'd rather we stuck our collective head in the sand and just express impotent horror every time the blew up an American or 3000.
Yes, I am thankful people like you are not in power.
Clinton ignored the problem for 8 years. He was really popular here and abroad... that mattered to him above all else.
The cost of his ego massaging policies is that we are way behind in this war of survival. Like I said it's the ealry stages of the war, but I hope you one day learn that this is indeed that, a war of survival, and I hope you learn it before it is upon your doorstep.
Dang! Thats made some sense to me and Im drunk.
I agree Steve a good defense Is a better offense!
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What's up man?
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I see the world in black and white, grey and in colour. I see your POV, I see Eaglers, Sandman, Steve, Toad, Frogm4n, GRUNZ..all of them. I see all these points of view and I agree with ALL OF THEM!!!!!!!
ARGHHHHH!!!!!!!
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cool. :cool:
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Originally posted by Steve
You may not like it, but the war on Iraq means the terrorists that are in the area are fighting armed soldiers, for the most part, instead of our civilians here or abroad. We've no doubt killed thousands of people who would kill us, merely because we are American.
That's entirely possible. It's also probable that we've killed thousands of people that had no ill will towards this country in the process. Those people had families. You can have little doubt that the surviving members are going to be angry about it.
Sandman, I know you find it disturbing that we don't wait on our own soil and let them blow us all up. You must prefer this as you have never offered a solution to our problem other than to be critical of our efforts.
I'm thankful that you are not in power, it means the U.S. has a chance to survive.
First, we'll have to agree that Iraq was even a problem. Not going to get there. They were effectively contained and have been so for nearly a decade.
You can spout that Al Queda and Iraq had nothing in common but anyone that isn't too busy hating our President knows that there was an Al Queda base in Northern Iraq and a jet fuselage for hijack training near Baghdad.
Hussein did not control the Kurdish north... this just in.
Try to cast aside your unfounded hate and see this for what it is, it's the opening moves in a fight for survival, w/ radical islam on one side and the West(viewed as Christian) on the other.
Hate? Have I ever said anything even remotely hateful of anyone?
If we lose, if we pull back, the entirety of the U.S. will be a happy hunting ground for terrorists, eventually.
I remember this one. It used to sound an awful lot like, "The Russians are coming! The Russians are coming!"
Maybe you are unaware that terrorists have been killing Americans for years and we didn't do anything about it. Example: U.S.S Cole, our embassies, the first WTC.
Likewise, we have been doing the same. It's easy to categorize this as simply an Islam/Christian thing. Unfortunately, it seems that what really have is this never ending cycle of vengeance. It's working so well in Israel, we should give it a go in Iraq.
We are finally fighting back. I know you don't want us to go after those that would kill us, you'd rather we stuck our collective head in the sand and just express impotent horror every time the blew up an American or 3000.
The "War on Terror" can't be won by squandering manpower and resources in Iraq. It might be good for Israel for us to be there, but there's little for us to gain.
Yes, I am thankful people like you are not in power.
Clinton ignored the problem for 8 years. He was really popular here and abroad... that mattered to him above all else.
The cost of his ego massaging policies is that we are way behind in this war of survival. Like I said it's the ealry stages of the war, but I hope you one day learn that this is indeed that, a war of survival, and I hope you learn it before it is upon your doorstep.
Hmmm... Iraq was contained... North and South Korea were talking about unification. You're right, we are so much better off today...
If history is any indicator, I'll be dead before we distangle from this mess.
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The "War on Terror" can't be won by squandering manpower and resources in Iraq. It might be good for Israel for us to be there, but there's little for us to gain.
Here is a classic lib retort. You puke this up... yet offer no real solution. LOL
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xcuse me but that's a classic neocon retort.
You make a huge gawdamn mess and then blame the libs when NOBODY now knows what the hell to do to fix it.
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See Nash, that's the difference between a reasoning person like me and a blind liberal whacko like you.
I see the stuff going on in Iraq as a war we are winning, all you see is a gawdamn mess.
Futhermore I... must concentrate... I think that.... look away from avatar... you libs are..... bouncing hoots... oh my... uhhhhhhh.
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Originally posted by Nash
xcuse me but that's a classic neocon retort.
You make a huge gawdamn mess and then blame the libs when NOBODY now knows what the hell to do to fix it.
Those that oppose the current US administration would like for it to be a huge mess that no one knows how to "fix". I won't be so fast to make that judgement. I think things will begin to settle down in Iraq beginning in July, unfortunately for the neo-libs.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I think things will begin to settle down in Iraq beginning in July, unfortunately for the neo-libs.
All politics aside, I hope you're right... but I doubt it.
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Yeah, I don't think what's happening in Iraq is a huge mess. I mean, it's a war and that's messy in itself, but overall what we are doing in Iraq is a good thing for the Iraqis and for our security.
We are holding back to much over there in my opinion.
In the end I feel that Iraq will be in good hands and free, just like Germany and Japan. We are not leaving until Iraq is secure, no way.
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Well, I'm willing to give ya the benefit of the doubt.
Consider this...
Has there been a single thing to date that's given you any reason for such faith?
What have you been right about thus far, and upon what do you base your confidence?
You only hope you're right.
And it is a gawdamned mess.
And yeah, unfortunately, time will tell.
and you will still blame the libs, somehow.
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are you asking me or Steve, Nash?
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Take 100k dead Iraqi's.
Now they aint worth one single American death IMHO.
DO we belong there?
I have no freeken idea.
But we are there right or wrong.
Now what Is the right thing to do?
Haul arse and leave em hangin?
Kill alot of them and hope we get the bad guy's?
Or just kill the muslim big mouth trouble makers?
When we turn over control on 6-30-04
I am afraid that the monkeys will be running the zoo.
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I blame the libs for 8 years of dereliction under Clinton. I will blame Bush if he buckles under pressure from that same bunch that gave the Islamic extremists the confidence that we are a weak and divided country that can be destroyed by their attacks.
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^
Nah doesn't sound like a mess to me....
Mostly Steve et al, Nuke.
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Come awn Iron if Bill was the architect of the current gong show you guys would be going bat sh! t.
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Bill put on quite a show Nash. The most damaging may be yet to be seen. Sure hope we never have to fight the Chinese over Korea or Taiwan. If we do, thousands more Americans may die simply because of the technology he sold to them for campaign money. Of course his lame responses to 8 years of terrorist attacks are what I refer to as being his dereliction.
Only time will tell if our aggressive response in the middle east is an effective deterrent to terrorism.
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Originally posted by Nash
Come awn Iron if Bill was the architect of the current gong show you guys would be going bat sh! t.
I would have supported Clinton if he did this, because I believe it's the only option we had left and was the right thing to do.
Some people are not swayed by politics, but instead are guided by what they feel is right or wrong. If I believe something is the right thing to do, I could care less if it's a liberal or a conservative in charge or responsible for it.
I dislike people that put politics above country.
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Originally posted by NUKE
I would have supported Clinton if he did this, because I believe it's the only option we had left...
Well... that's your belief and lord knows yer entitled to it. Not much I can say about that.
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well, at least you could make me laugh and post a funny pic or something.....that freaking pot chasing the guy almost made me hack up a lung in laughter.....classic!
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What about the muslims in USA and Europe?
Are you a gas chamber man, or do you prefer machinr guns or some other method?
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Suprising this thread is still open.
...-Gixer
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Skuzzy, please ban this Storch guy. How can he be left to promote genocide?
If he was recommending the genocide of Jews he'd be banned in a heart beat.
"I'm a patient man."
We know Toad. Exactly where are those WMD?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What about the muslims in USA and Europe?
Are you a gas chamber man, or do you prefer machinr guns or some other method?
If they be terrorists....three taps to the forehead is the preffered method I believe
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Originally posted by Dowding
Skuzzy, please ban this Storch guy. How can he be left to promote genocide?
Yea I'm pretty shocked by it too. :(
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Originally posted by Gixer
Suprising this thread is still open.
...-Gixer
Nothing really wrong with this thread. A few guyhs have posted some vile stuff and one guy tried to hijack it - but came to nothing.
I'd say it's not a lock thread now...
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time check
Edit: Cripes, storch made his call for genocide at like 4 in the moring HTC time. Give Scuzzy a chance to wake up and get into work.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Nothing really wrong with this thread. A few guyhs have posted some vile stuff and one guy tried to hijack it - but came to nothing.
I'd say it's not a lock thread now...
Not so sure about that, didn't take long for it to degenerate into the usual ignorance of religious and racial remarks.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by storch
Apparently it's ok for muslims to want to eradicate us but not the other way round.
You wrong, some muslims want to eradicate us, not all.
It's ugly, but an opinion held by many.
And alot of people are ignorant morons. Just because an idea is popular doesn't make it valid.
If even one prominent muslim stepped forward and condemned these actions I would reconsider my position. I will wait patiently to see if that comes about.
You will wait patiently for what exactly? For a prominant muslim to come to your door and condemn the actions? It's pretty fricking hard to find some thing if you don't look for it.
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all i have to say is nuke em all they r good 4 is terrorism even the little kids right after 9/11 i seen a video of weman and kids chearing as some guys burned a US flag so all we would be doing is getting rid of the next generation of terrorist. and thats what we should do.
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Storch, I am a hawk when it comes to this war but I believe that only a certain "radical" element of Islam advocates violence against the West. Now, that number may be in the millions, I dunno....but to advocate the killing of all muslims is.... well..... way extreme.
As for those muslims who would actively bring death to us, I say kill 'em all before they kill us.
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/258_1084443686_potty.jpg)
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Originally posted by TrueKillJG54
all i have to say is nuke em all they r good 4 is terrorism even the little kids right after 9/11 i seen a video of weman and kids chearing as some guys burned a US flag so all we would be doing is getting rid of the next generation of terrorist. and thats what we should do.
Warms one heart to realise that we have semi literate proponents of killing women and children amongst us!!
Definitely the stuff that makes America great!
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Definitely the stuff that makes America great!
Oh great, another assinine anti-American comment.
Schaden... what % of americans do you think advocate the killing of innocent children and women? Seriously.
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no woman or child that saports terriorisam is innocent they should all be killed
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Give it enough rope and it seems any thread will degenerate into something contemptable.