Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: FUNKED1 on May 13, 2004, 01:51:31 AM
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No blood for oil!
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2.03 in phoenix, was 1.40 or so at new year's.
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I'm in Phoenix, couldn't tell you what I pay for gas, because I don't :) well, except for my motorcyle
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Originally posted by NUKE
I'm in Phoenix, couldn't tell you what I pay for gas, because I don't :) well, except for my motorcyle
2.11 - 2.15 most places for unleaded. Almost as bad as last August when the pipline broke.
Drove out to CA earlier and everywhere I saw was in the 2.30 range for unleaded.
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Im driving to CA tomorrow.
I remember very well when that pipeline broke, what a pain. I had to run natural gas at times, couldn't find regular fuel.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Im driving to CA tomorrow.
I remember very well when that pipeline broke, what a pain. I had to run natural gas at times, couldn't find regular fuel.
If you're coming in via the 10...
Last cheapest place I saw gas was that Loves on the north side of the highway in Indio. Once you get through the pass the prices start getting real ugly.
Construction spots at;
The last bridge in AZ before the checkpoints, and just west of the pass around Banning they had the 10 shut down to one lane on the west bound side.
Drive safe :cool:
p.s. To add irony/humor to my trip. I was almost at Buckeye when I realized I'd forgotten my cameras and had to go back for them. :rofl
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Ty Jigsaw
Do they still have the checkpoint coming back? I mean that military (?) one where everyone has to stop......? that really slows things down.
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We gotta start stealing that oil!!! Bush lied!!!!
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I can't find cheaper than $2.13 in Phx.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Ty Jigsaw
Do they still have the checkpoint coming back? I mean that military (?) one where everyone has to stop......? that really slows things down.
Quite welcome sir
Didn't see any, but it was dark(ish) when I hit the state line. Only one I can confirm is the agricultural checkpoint going into CA.
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$2.05-$2.15 for 93 octane in Miami/Ft. Lauderdale
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Originally posted by Steve
I can't find cheaper than $2.13 in Phx.
A few stations in north central(ish) and the one off I17 and t-bird were 2.11 when I gassed up earlier. Same one was 2.15 yesterday though.
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Just paid $2.20/gal. I asked if they'd just take a kidney, but he said that wouldn't be enough.
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:D
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Out of interest, how much does diesel cost in the US? In all the European countries I know of, it's about two thirds of the cost of 95 octane unleaded. Except Britain, of course, where the Blair/Labour/socialist thinking is that if we're driving diesels we're getting much better fuel mileage therefore using less and paying less tax. To make up for that, diesel in Britain is priced even higher than unleaded. :mad:
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Blair out in 2005!
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Originally posted by beet1e
Out of interest, how much does diesel cost in the US? In all the European countries I know of, it's about two thirds of the cost of 95 octane unleaded. Except Britain, of course, where the Blair/Labour/socialist thinking is that if we're driving diesels we're getting much better fuel mileage therefore using less and paying less tax. To make up for that, diesel in Britain is priced even higher than unleaded. :mad:
It's priced the same as 87 oct. here. Well, speaking for Houston only. 93 oct. is about $2/gal.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Out of interest, how much does diesel cost in the US? In all the European countries I know of, it's about two thirds of the cost of 95 octane unleaded. Except Britain, of course, where the Blair/Labour/socialist thinking is that if we're driving diesels we're getting much better fuel mileage therefore using less and paying less tax. To make up for that, diesel in Britain is priced even higher than unleaded. :mad:
yup, diesel is cheaper here too
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Diesel used to be much cheaper than gas in the U.S. until the govt decided it was a great source of tax revenue...... the result is that it is no cheaper than gasoline now.
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Gasoline is IIRC the first burn off in the refining process and initially cheaper to produce that diesel. gasoline has its octane increased and other additives introduced thereby causing the increases in production costs. The largest portion of the price we pay at the pump is for taxes.
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Originally posted by storch
Gasoline is IIRC the first burn off in the refining process and initially cheaper to produce that diesel. gasoline has its octane increased and other additives introduced thereby causing the increases in production costs. The largest portion of the price we pay at the pump is for taxes.
I understood that diesel is a lower grade of fuel (less refined) than gasoline. So I would have thought that a gallon of diesel could be made using less crude oil than would be needed to produce a gallon of 95-octane unleaded gasoline.
In 1997 (before we got Blair) 60% of the pump price was tax. It is now closer to 80%.
Dowding! :aok
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well they got the blood, I say its time to take the oil ...
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Diesel is primarily a waste product of gas production. Until the introduction of diesel cars in the US in the mid 70 it was 50-60% less than 87 gasoline at the pump. After the introduction of diesel cars the price rose to 100-120% of 87 gasoline.
This would not be that big of a deal if it only affected those diesel cars. The problem is it affects transportation of goods. 18 wheelers average around 8mpg. When the cost of transporting goes up, it eventually makes it's way to the shelf price of goods. The trucker is not the one making the profit from the increase.
I say the overall pump price of gas is at least 50% higher than it should be simply because of oil company manipulation. Putting groups of refineries offline at the same time for overhaul instead of a staggered shedule creates a false shortage. The Energy Department has done NOTHING to stop this practice.
While the eyes of the nation have been focused on "The War on Terror" we have been letting the energy industry run wild. We need to take a look at the DOE and find out why this is being allowed to happen.
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Originally posted by rpm371
I say the overall pump price of gas is at least 50% higher than it should be simply because of oil company manipulation. Putting groups of refineries offline at the same time for overhaul instead of a staggered shedule creates a false shortage. The Energy Department has done NOTHING to stop this practice.
While the eyes of the nation have been focused on "The War on Terror" we have been letting the energy industry run wild. We need to take a look at the DOE and find out why this is being allowed to happen.
We agree! (Drops dead from shock...{thump}...)
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Jupiter HAS aligned with Mars.
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Originally posted by rpm371
Jupiter HAS aligned with Mars.
And Pluto has aligned with Uranus. :eek:
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"The Energy Department has done NOTHING to stop this practice.While the eyes of the nation have been focused on "The War on Terror" we have been letting the energy industry run wild. We need to take a look at the DOE and find out why this is being allowed to happen"
I'll say it again. The people who benefit (read "profit") from controlling the Iraqi oil (and then Opec) is NOT John or Jane Public.
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Originally posted by Westy
"The Energy Department has done NOTHING to stop this practice.While the eyes of the nation have been focused on "The War on Terror" we have been letting the energy industry run wild. We need to take a look at the DOE and find out why this is being allowed to happen"
I'll say it again. The people who benefit (read "profit") from controlling the Iraqi oil (and then Opec) is NOT John or Jane Public.
Better check your facts Westy. When you do, post the links, or sources of information here please.
Words on a BBS mean nothing without facts to back them up.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
And Pluto has aligned with Uranus. :eek:
Aww, Mongo straight!
(http://www.lakenetnwi.net/alexkarras.jpg)
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You mean like you? I should post Cut & Pasted walls of text consisting of others literary work and opinion? Or post links and a synopsis none of which you have any intention of reading. It's been done on the board here and at AGW by others several times already. All of which gets branded and replied to by the neanderthal-con and neo-con as "Bush is Hitler" "No blood for Oil," "diud you forget 9/11???!!! and "lies lies lies" - in other words the post and poster gets defamed and the message minimized
With all that has transpired and been uncovered over the past year alone I'm amazed people like you still support the US administration, a veritable house of lies, so strongly.
I don't need to do any research for you. I posted my firm opinion based on past deceptions & practices by US officials and oil corporations, on who is now in office, past legislation attempts by some of the heads of this administration and on who has headed certain corporations in the past.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Words on a BBS mean nothing without facts to back them up.
you ought to know ............... :rolleyes:
lucifer
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We should be drowning in oil.
All the money we spent "liberating" that country should be repaid with cheap oil.
Gas prices should be below a dollar a gallon.
The ONLY good thing about high gas prices is perhaps people will start figureing out a way to get around without useing it.
Ohh and Hyrdogen isn't the answer if its produced by coal burning power plants or removing it from natural gas.
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The hybrid gas/electric vehicle is the future. It just makes sense. Railroads have used this technology for over 50 years.
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Originally posted by Westy
I posted my firm opinion based on past deceptions & practices by US officials and oil corporations, on who is now in office, past legislation attempts by some of the heads of this administration and on who has headed certain corporations in the past.
Thats all I wanted to know. I usually lead my posts with IMO if I have no facts to back it up.
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Originally posted by lucifer666
you ought to know ............... :rolleyes:
lucifer
Hiya Weazel! Glad you found your way back in! :aok :rofl
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Ahhh I finaly found something that makes Virginia worth living in, according to what I've seen, we have the cheapest gas prices in the US. I can buy a gallon up at the local gas station for $1.40.
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Originally posted by rpm371
The hybrid gas/electric vehicle is the future. It just makes sense. Railroads have used this technology for over 50 years.
Keep an eye on nanotechnology and hydrogen, they're using it now in labs to produce hydrogen without resorting to fossil fuel for the separation stage (however its done in small scale, experimentally)
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it ain't about the gas in your car --- j about everything goes up when oil rises
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http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=3AFY1ISQFDNF0CRBAELCFEY?type=reutersEdge&storyID=5133834
Here's s timely piece that sheds a little light on who the benefactors (profiting parties) are. Oil prices continue to go up, the public gets accustomed to it and the rich get even richer - and more powerful. And Mr Averagejoe Conservative smiles the whole while thinking "the party" and "the government" really, really, trully! are working for and making plans for his benefit.
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Nice to have a car that gets 30+ to the gallon right now.
Diesel is cheaper than gasoline for PUC vehicles (semis, commercial, etc). For the public, it's heavily taxed so the price usually falls somewhere between 87 and 92 octane fuel (Usually closer to 92). For PUC it is usually 10-15% less than 87.
MiniD
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My Accord gets good mileage. Filling it up each week still hurts.
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/oil/2004/0128oilprofit.htm
More solid reasoning that Iraq was indeed not a war for oil but simply for ridding the country of all those nasty WMD, cease the human rights abuses and boot a repressive regime.
"In order to understand the magnitude of these profits, it is useful to know that the worldwide profits of the world’s five largest oil companies in 2002 were $35 billion. Our estimate of the “most probable” annual profits in Iraq are $95 billion, three times this sum! Total company profits in Iraq, over time, would be an enormously large sum – ranging from a low of about $600 billion to a high of about $9 trillion."
http://www.consumerwatchdog.org/utilities/pr/pr004238.php3
(neo-con1 to neocon2: "Let's hope no one mentions the causes and reasons the US/UK over threw the gov't of Iran and installed the Sha back in the 1950's!"
neocon2 to neocon1: or that anyone looks up the "Kissinger plan")
http://www.mymethow.com/~joereid/oil_coup.html
http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2003/03/ma_273_01.html
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Originally posted by Mini D
Nice to have a car that gets 30+ to the gallon right now.
Diesel is cheaper than gasoline for PUC vehicles (semis, commercial, etc). For the public, it's heavily taxed so the price usually falls somewhere between 87 and 92 octane fuel (Usually closer to 92). For PUC it is usually 10-15% less than 87.
MiniD
Dodge will have it's first hybrid diesel/electric truck out sometime this year or next.
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Originally posted by Westy
http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml;jsessionid=3AFY1ISQFDNF0CRBAELCFEY?type=reutersEdge&storyID=5133834
Here's s timely piece that sheds a little light on who the benefactors (profiting parties) are. Oil prices continue to go up, the public gets accustomed to it and the rich get even richer - and more powerful. And Mr Averagejoe Conservative smiles the whole while thinking "the party" and "the government" really, really, trully! are working for and making plans for his benefit.
Hmm, I saw this:
Producer country cartel OPEC has reined in output, while Iraqi supplies are still constrained by conflict.
Tight U.S. refining capacity and booming Chinese demand are also keeping prices up. With 60 percent of the world's spare capacity in Saudi Arabia, civil unrest there has fueled the price fire.
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Originally posted by Mini D
Nice to have a car that gets 30+ to the gallon right now.
Diesel is cheaper than gasoline for PUC vehicles (semis, commercial, etc). For the public, it's heavily taxed so the price usually falls somewhere between 87 and 92 octane fuel (Usually closer to 92). For PUC it is usually 10-15% less than 87.
MiniD
I'm getting between 26-30 with my commute car. What hits the pocket book is doing these week-end fishing trips, which cost between $25-$50 in gas just to go a couple hours travel time. Ah well, I knew what I was getting into, and I'm enjoying it. ITs worth the cost to see smiles on the kids faces when they pull in a 2 lb. trout!
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$1.22 for farm diesel here.
Of course we don't use it in the truck. That would be illegal.
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Took a hundred years for Gas to get above a dollar, now the oil companies have closed 150 refineries creating a false shortage.
They are gouging us and it's getting ridiculous. It doesn't matter if OPEC up's production by 100%...there are not enough refinineries on-line to keep up with demand. What americans need to do is work from home and/or not fuel up for 1 day.
If everyone did this great gas-out day it would have there storage overflowing and they would drop prices.
Seems like the amount of federal and state taxes on a gallon of gas has also made up a large part of the price.
Just think, the people used to revolt when they were oppressed with such high taxes. They had a "tea Party" over a half a cent tax. Now if you were to utilize your civil rights to protest you could be labeled a terrorist. Sad,sad,sad
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Originally posted by Mini D
Nice to have a car that gets 30+ to the gallon right now.
Diesel is cheaper than gasoline for PUC vehicles (semis, commercial, etc). For the public, it's heavily taxed so the price usually falls somewhere between 87 and 92 octane fuel (Usually closer to 92). For PUC it is usually 10-15% less than 87.
MiniD
Aha! Your Mini is diesel, hence Mini D? I've had my Golf 1.9 TDi 6 months, and now that the engine is run in I can get 50+mpg quite easily, but a gallon here is about 4.54 litres.
That two-tier diesel pricing is something I dread as diesels become more popular and the government looks for new ways to make up the tax shortfall as more and more people switch from gas to diesel. We already have a two tier system: "Red Diesel" for marine use and all other non road use including farm vehicles that do not use the public road is available and costs less than half than road diesel.
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Diesel in Europe is a better grade than what is sold in the U.S. Euro standards call for sulphur levels half of what is required here, which increases production costs.
Euro diesel sulphur requirements are getting more stringent, either this year or next year. I forget which.
I'll have to dig the breakdown up again.
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yup scsi.... they are upping the standards again for some reason, i think it has something to do with removing more of the particles that can cause cancer and other nasty lung stuff.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Diesel in Europe is a better grade than what is sold in the U.S. Euro standards call for sulphur levels half of what is required here, which increases production costs.
Euro diesel sulphur requirements are getting more stringent, either this year or next year. I forget which.
I'll have to dig the breakdown up again.
That's interesting. Road diesel pump price here can vary by about 6p/litre depending on whose product is being sold by the filling station. The best deal for diesel here is from Esso (sold in the US as Exxon) where, oddly enough, their product is branded ULS-2000 (ULS = ultra low sulphur). Makes it sound like the cheapest is the best.
I've been warned off buying "cheap" diesel from supermarket outlets. It's cheap because they don't always put in the additives that are needed to maintain smooth operation/clean injectors.
Does anyone here drive a diesel in a very cold weather state? I'm wondering if you ever have problems with fuel "waxing". The coldest morning we had here last winter was about 21°F, and I had no problems with starting/running.
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i use diesel, and yes it gets very cold here, and no i dont have any problems
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If you do a little isopropyl alcohol goes a long way to keeping injectors clean and prevent waxing. also cuts down on that green slime that builds up in the lines. have been using it in my tractors for years and will swear by it
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Originally posted by rpm371
Aww, Mongo straight!
(http://www.lakenetnwi.net/alexkarras.jpg)
Hey Boss can we have some more beans!!
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That green slime you are referring to is diesel mixed with water. The alcohol will make that worse as alcohol absorbs moisture and when it evaporates, you are left with the moisture.
Beet1e, I would guess that the Esso diesel is devoid of many additives and that is why the costs are less. It could also be they started with a naturally low sulfur crude. Brazilian crude is very low in sulphur and some Euro crude is as well.
U.S. crude is pretty rich in sulphur and I suspect that is why there is no low-sulphur requirement in the U.S. for diesel.
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Skuzzy, The tractor in question is used sporadically. the humidity here is very high. by mixing the alcohol with the diesel fuel the hassel of having to remove the fuel filter/remove air from the system prior to starting seems to be eliminated. do you have any suggestions or a better idea? this solution was proposed by my diesel mechanic and has worked fine.
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If you have a moisture problem, then alcohol can absorb the moisture, but it must be moved through the system quickly or it will simply redeposit the moisture someplace else in the system.
Not familiar enough with the tractor to make any recommendations.
Mechnical fuel pump? Electric fuel pump?
One trick we used on our tractor was to keep the fuel tank heated. This eliminated the moisture problem (coast of Texas). It is a cheap solution and during the winter helped the tractor get cranking.
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Here in Finland we have three (or four) different diesel-oils for sale in here: summer grade, winter grade, special winter grade and if weather gets really gold also Arctic grade Diesel. Summer grade goes well to -5c -10c, some even down to -15c.
IIRC it's the paraffine which crystallizes in the fuel filter and prevents flow thru it when using summer grade in winters.
Friend used to drive a semi (well not a semi but a 25m "train") and his longest trips were to Kazakhstan.
French semi joined to their convoy with tanks full of some crappy mid-european diesel which, of course, choked the filter.
I bet that French driver was happy when my friend told him that he's having few hundred liters arctic diesel "Just in case"....
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They have drains on your fuel filters just for that.
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Originally posted by Staga
Here in Finland we have three (or four) different diesel-oils for sale in here: summer grade, winter grade, special winter grade and if weather gets really gold also Arctic grade Diesel. Summer grade goes well to -5c -10c, some even down to -15c.
IIRC it's the paraffine which crystallizes in the fuel filter and prevents flow thru it when using summer grade in winters.
Friend used to drive a semi (well not a semi but a 25m "train") and his longest trips were to Kazakhstan.
French semi joined to their convoy with tanks full of some crappy mid-european diesel which, of course, choked the filter.
I bet that French driver was happy when my friend told him that he's having few hundred liters arctic diesel "Just in case"....
we got the same diesel oils in norway as you have staga, and we dont see any problems with dieselcars in norway either.
I was not aware that it was a diffrence that big between the middle euros and the skandinavian :D
Edit: the tossers need some -25c degrees iI guess to find out :)
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btw if water is problem Here's (http://www.perma-cool.com/Catalog/Cat_page26.html) the solution. Just simple fuel-filter/water separator.
If your local sparepart shops won't have one then find nearest marine shop, they should have them.
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2.05 is average in Tempe Steve.
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Kubota L245 1978 with mechanical fuel pump, heating the tank is a possibilty. It's just a pain to need it and have to spend an hour plus doing maintenance. great tractors otherwise. a marine fuel/water separator sounds like a great idea as well. thanks staga.
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Diesel in Europe is a better grade than what is sold in the U.S. Euro standards call for sulphur levels half of what is required here, which increases production costs.
Euro diesel sulphur requirements are getting more stringent, either this year or next year. I forget which.
I'll have to dig the breakdown up again.
Things are going to get much tighter here in the coming years, and even the oil industry doesn't exactly know what is going to happen. Diesel sulfur is going to drop to 7 ppm leaving the refinery, and can only increase to 15 ppm by the time it leaves the retailer's tank. This has been a major challenge for the oil industry since current highway "lower sulfur" diesel is about 500 ppm, but the downstream distribution channel is in for an even greater challenge.
Petroleum products are shipped in pipelines, tanker trucks, barges, etc. You ship multiple products using the same infrastructure, and some products may have sulfur levels of several thousand ppm. The ability to cross contaminate this diesel above 15 ppm is not that hard, and the impact of that results in damage to the next generation of pollution control equipment pretty quickly. (Who says the oil industry is all powerful? The automakers kicked the industry’s bellybutton on this requirement, making clean air a “fuel” problem for diesel instead of finding a better emission technology). This of course creates liability issues, and the likelihood that somebody has to eat the cost of diesel that is contaminated above 15 ppm (but nobody knows who yet). These issues have to be worked out. Various off road diesel dynamics and phase in periods issues (some regions and small refiners can carry and produce the 500 ppm for a longer period than other for hardship reasons) further complicate matters by having maybe 6 grades (as I remember off the top of my head) of diesel total. That means marketers will likely carry what’s easier, safer and in the most local demand at the expense of others.
The end result is that most refineries will likely have made the investments to produce the new ultra low sulfur diesel. But, many terminals and bulk plants may not carry it, and some may close. The base price will certainly be higher by some percentage, but supply volatility price increases and general availability of the appropriate diesel for the appropriate engine in all markets is far from certain. Might not be an issue, or could be a total mess in about 2006. Fortunately, Iraqi crude is low sulfur crude :)
Charon
Here’s a detailed analysis: http://www.nacsonline.com/NR/exeres/2E275E2B-AE24-4CEB-AFC6-1DD2A1E4099C.htm
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As for gas prices, refinery capacity, etc. The only way around that is a regulated industry. In a free market, and with all of the consolidation (oil company mergers/less competiton/set world demand) the upstream oil industry is doing exactly what it needs to do to maximize shareholder value and quarterly profitability - like it or not. (I'm glad I telecommute :)) Iraq wont result in cheaper gas (LOL!), just more profits upstream for whoever gets the E&P contracts. That's where the real money is (Big oil). Actually selling it is small, inconsquential oil. Even refining is more trouble than its worth for the majors.
Charon
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Originally posted by Mini D
Nice to have a car that gets 30+ to the gallon right now.
Diesel is cheaper than gasoline for PUC vehicles (semis, commercial, etc). For the public, it's heavily taxed so the price usually falls somewhere between 87 and 92 octane fuel (Usually closer to 92). For PUC it is usually 10-15% less than 87.
MiniD
Mini, you just THINK it's cheaper. Trucks with a PUC sticker get the bill all at once. Lots of states work this way with a reciprocal agreement to share fuel taxes. You can buy $50 worth of fuel or pay the tax anyway whether you buy or not.
I remember once in Arizona at a little rinky dink station in the desert where I stopped for fuel. There was a sign saying 77 cent a gallon tax paid. Tax Paid ment for vehicles with the PUC sticker. An old man in his RV came near attacking the guy when he told him it was 1.07 a gallon for him after he filled up. :rofl
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Storch, in the winter it helps to keep the fuel tank full to decrease condensation. Also there is usually a drain at the bottom of the fule tank to drain out any water, which settles to the bottom of the tank.
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You'd think that after all of these "Blood for Oil" wars we'd own one of those moddle East countries by now...
eskimo
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Correct me if I’m wrong here. But doesn’t the commodities market have a wee bit to do with the price of oil? A very fast check showed today’s Light Crude at 40.85 a bbl.
http://money.cnn.com/markets/commodities.html
While in Oct 2003 it was only 31.88 bbl. That seems to be a large jump in 6 months or so. http://www.oil.net/reuters/energyOverview.asp
If there’s a big demand for light Crude, doesn’t that force the price to climb? Higher gas prices at the end? It seems Soybeans climbed up 10.25 per bu just today. Wouldn’t that price increase also show up at the soybean pump at your local grocery store at some point?
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That ain't nothing yet wait till mid summer. Going to the gas station will feel like being mauled by a bear minus the coupons.
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Correct me if I’m wrong here. But doesn’t the commodities market have a wee bit to do with the price of oil? A very fast check showed today’s Light Crude at 40.85 a bbl.
Absolutely. And that price is usually controlled by the amount of oil released into the market. The goal is keep prices at the maximum profit point short of seriously impacting demand. This largely sets the base price of gasoline or diesel, etc. For a long time OPEC held production to fit a "basket" that (off the top of my head) kept prices in the $23-$28/bbl range.
The same factors come into play downstream with refined products like gasoline and diesel. With the refining capacity in the US at 98 percent in the summer, any hint of a disruption due to refinery fire or pipeline break etc. in a region means a potential shortage and higher rack prices. Combined with various environmental fuels regulation, and the inability to easily make up a shortfall (in many cases) because Indiana gasoline can't be used in Chicago, and you can get an immediate short term spike in gasoline prices that can be quite high. No one wants to have dry tanks, and it's a seller's market.
Charon
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Originally posted by Torque
That ain't nothing yet wait till mid summer. Going to the gas station will feel like being mauled by a bear minus the coupons.
LOL!!!
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If one were to assume a 6% fuel price inflation rate, 0.35 per gallon in 1970 would be 2.53 / gal now.
We have been living with cheap fuel for a long time now.
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Filled up today. 1.89 here.
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I may have to get a loan for my next fill up.
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I can get 12mpg if I keep my foot out of the secondaries.
lazs
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I'd love to see a .10 a gallon tax added on right now.
The money collected goes into a "lottery pot". It's divided into 60% for 1st place, 30% for 2nd place and 10% for 3rd place.
Winners are first teams/companies to develop a workable/cost effective system to use hydrogen to fuel automobiles. Let an independent board set the standards, not the government or the car companies.
Woohoo...... even if it didn't turn out, it'd be as much fun as watching a great sporting event as folks tried to grab the brass ring.
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$1.87 in Western Montana, and the people here are on the verge of a riot, most people here cant remember prices this high. I just laugh, they were higher than this when I left Cali 6 months ago....
FYI: diesel is $1.85 here.....
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If im not wrong, one of important factor, whitch brough price higher are lies about oil reserves in US.
Anyway its still too cheap copare to rest of the world
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yes lada... America is one big lie told by big fat American bully liars.... It hardly seems fair that we run everything and live so well... Oh well.... we can't hang on much longer..
I would suggest that you simply hold your breath until we are destroyed.
maybe if kerry gets elected... he understands that we should be punished.
lazs
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Here in eastern Montana, $1.95 or so will get you a gallon of a lovely 87 octane + water blend.
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I can't wait for the "Hybrids"...Minivans,SUV's..(Heck,even muscle cars)...To become the new craze.
Then we can sit back and watch as those damn Saudi's start flooding the world market with cheap gas...oops,I mean cheap oil prices.
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Originally posted by lazs2
yes lada... America is one big lie told by big fat American bully liars.... It hardly seems fair that we run everything and live so well... Oh well.... we can't hang on much longer..
I would suggest that you simply hold your breath until we are destroyed.
maybe if kerry gets elected... he understands that we should be punished.
lazs
use brain for better performance you little genius
http://www.thedesertsun.com/news/stories2004/business/20040313024553.shtml
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0419-08.htm
http://www.betterworld.com/getreallist/article.php?story=20040308222042196 (http://www.betterworld.com/getreallist/article.php?story=20040308222042196)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3523646.stm
edit one more for our genius
http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=2516309
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Hey Lada, you stated, "If im not wrong, one of important factor, whitch brough price higher are lies about oil reserves in US."
The links you posted have to do with Shell Oil Company, with worldwide reserves, much of the reserve downgrade has to do with Nigeria. I saw nothing in my skim of the links about domestic US reserves.
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You right Holden, i were not quite sure about Shell`s problem and it were wrong. Im reading more article about it and it seems that beside Shell problems there is one important factor and its raised consumption.
http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn41263.htm
edit: about Shell. Yes shell's lie affected US as well, coz its probably Shell's biggest market. So if Shell lie in generaly, you can expect problems on all Markets, specialy on most biggest.
It were my wrong information that lie's about reserves are limited only to US.
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$2.61 per gallon - I WISH!!! Also a convert to diesel btw, bought my first one 5 years ago, just bought a new 307 2ltr diesel - never go back to petrol now.
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how much of socialist europe's at the pump price for fuel are taxes? I'll bet it's upwards of 80%. my daughter says that it's about US$5.00 per gallon now in some places. Alarming. good thing for us we kicked you guys back across the pond to where you belong. We (the US) should probably withdraw from the UN, too much euro influence coming from that agency.
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1 Litre here cost from 0.8 to 1.2(aprox) €
Taxes are around 50% +- 10%
And fuel consumption here is about 60% lower
for example, germnay need 9.8x less fuel that US
Everybody probably know that germany isnt 10x smaller
:rolleyes:
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Germany and Montana are about the same size.
Germany 357,021 sqkm
Montana 376,978 sqkm
US population = 300 MM Germany = 83 MM
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Germany and Montana are about the same size.
Germany 357,021 sqkm
Montana 376,978 sqkm
US population = 300 MM Germany = 83 MM
yup thats what i say 300/83=3.6 < 19.000/2.000
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All I can do is laugh at you Amurricans... first you buy overweighted cars with big (and fuel hungry) engines and then you ***** when fuel costs more....
"Average fuel economy peaked at 22.1 miles to the gallon in the late 1980's, according to the agency, but has eroded since then to 20.7 miles for the 2003 model year."
(Source (http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/05/business/05weight.html?ei=5007&en=60db96e1515d0b9d&ex=1399176000&adxnnl=1&partner=USERLAND&adxnnlx=1083787301-uYoZKRqRI6bk7RMzQEdPtA))
Just keep on buying SUVs and pickups etc but please, do not ***** if you can't afford to buy gas for it :rolleyes:
Schaden I'm driving a 307 also though it's just an ordinary 1,6XS; not enough km/year to make diesel profitable (We have special tax for diesel cars).
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Originally posted by Staga
Schaden I'm driving a 307 also though it's just an ordinary 1,6XS; not enough km/year to make diesel profitable (We have special tax for diesel cars).
baaaa i drive 307 2.0 HDi and i think that consumption about 8l/100km is too high...
sometime when i drive mercedez Clk with 2.8l im having about 7l/100km.
when i drive a long distance i have about 6l/100km with avg speed 150 kph
all in diesel :)
But we are just stupid bunch of Europains, whitch dont know how to make bussines :D :D :D
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60% tax on gas? No thank you lada. Keep your socialism. In the states we drive more per person than you do also.
When gas gets expensive I can buy muscle cheap... when everyone drives econo boxes gas gets cheap again. If hybrids come into widespread use I would encourage you all to drive em so that gas becomes cheap for my real cars.
so long as we don't get too kerry/european/socialist.
lazs
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Originally posted by lada
But we are just stupid bunch of Europains, whitch dont know how to make bussines :D :D :D
One of the few things you have said I agree with.
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Originally posted by lazs2
gas becomes cheap for my real cars.
Real cars ? :D
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Originally posted by Westy
You mean like you? I should post Cut & Pasted walls of text consisting of others literary work and opinion? Or post links and a synopsis none of which you have any intention of reading. It's been done on the board here and at AGW by others several times already. All of which gets branded and replied to by the neanderthal-con and neo-con as "Bush is Hitler" "No blood for Oil," "diud you forget 9/11???!!! and "lies lies lies" - in other words the post and poster gets defamed and the message minimized
With all that has transpired and been uncovered over the past year alone I'm amazed people like you still support the US administration, a veritable house of lies, so strongly.
I don't need to do any research for you. I posted my firm opinion based on past deceptions & practices by US officials and oil corporations, on who is now in office, past legislation attempts by some of the heads of this administration and on who has headed certain corporations in the past.
worth repeating
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Just keep on buying SUVs and pickups etc but please, do not ***** if you can't afford to buy gas for it
Ahh that's the beauty of America, most of us can afford things people in other countries cannot. You know, our standard of living is so much higher than most of the rest of the world.
I think I'll pull out my gas guzzling 'vette and drive around aimlessly, because I can afford it.
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Originally posted by lazs2
60% tax on gas? No thank you lada. Keep your socialism. In the states we drive more per person than you do also.
When gas gets expensive I can buy muscle cheap... when everyone drives econo boxes gas gets cheap again. If hybrids come into widespread use I would encourage you all to drive em so that gas becomes cheap for my real cars.
so long as we don't get too kerry/european/socialist.
lazs
ok, but could tell us how much healthcare and education costs in your part of the world?
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LOL, get St. Santa to explain to you how he finally realized how much it costs in YOUR part of the world. ;)
Here's a clue.. TANSTAAFL
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Cheapest gas I saw in Phoenix was 2.15 last night.
:eek:
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Dune,
Yesterday I saw 3 different Q/T's at $2.13.
Do you have one in your part of town?
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It's a simple question, how much does Healthcare insuarance cost for say a family of four per annum in the USA and how much would it cost to send two kids to college?
I fully realise that there's no such thing as a free lunch however I can afford the $200 a month for fuel so it's not a biggie.
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I have a Sam's Club card. I can get gas there for 2.09. I was talking about your average chevron, texaco, circle k that I saw.
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It depends.
Depends mostly on what health care plan you are using and what college/university you attend.
There is no one answer to either of those questions.
I can easily afford more than that for gas. At present I'm driving a big ole' pickup truck with a huge V-10. No strain as yet. I use the truck too... most of my driving in it is in support of training/trialing the dogs. Running around town I do in a smaller more efficient vehicle.
I'm probably going to get an even smaller, more efficient vehicle as well.
Jeez, life here is great. Four cars for three drivers.
Don'tcha just hate us?
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Originally posted by Steve
Ahh that's the beauty of America, most of us can afford things people in other countries cannot. You know, our standard of living is so much higher than most of the rest of the world.
I think I'll pull out my gas guzzling 'vette and drive around aimlessly, because I can afford it.
But earlier in this thread, you said "I may have to get a loan for my next fill up."
One of these posts had to be a lie. So which is the real Steve? The bleeding heart pauper, or the nationalistic salamander?
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But earlier in this thread, you said "I may have to get a loan for my next fill up."One of these posts had to be a lie. So which is the real Steve? The bleeding heart pauper, or the nationalistic salamander?
One of them was a joke, Beatoff. See if you can figure it out.
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Originally posted by Toad
It depends.
Depends mostly on what health care plan you are using and what college/university you attend.
There is no one answer to either of those questions.
I can easily afford more than that for gas. At present I'm driving a big ole' pickup truck with a huge V-10. No strain as yet. I use the truck too... most of my driving in it is in support of training/trialing the dogs. Running around town I do in a smaller more efficient vehicle.
I'm probably going to get an even smaller, more efficient vehicle as well.
Jeez, life here is great. Four cars for three drivers.
Don'tcha just hate us?
Er don't hate anyone, but then I'm not American. Just curious as to how your society pays for healthcare and education. I suppose I could buy more than one car but I prefer to go and buy a holiday house in Greece...each to their own
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*sniffs* I'll bite schaden, I pay for my familie's health care with my earnings. each year I shop for the best package in health insurance available. This warrants us
1. first rate care in the most advanced healthcare system on earth
2.no long waits for service as i've read euros and our Canadian friends experience.
3.why would I need a holiday house in greece? I'm in one of the hottest holiday destination on earth. I live and work in paradise. some people come here and never return home. I have met many like that from all over the world.
Why do you need a holiday home in greece? The Med is cold and usually full of raw sewage in many places I've seen. Even though quite picturesque.
Get a holiday home in the Florida keys a modest one will only set you back about $500,000.00 about half that figure for a manufactured home like many euros dwell in now. No feces dodging here, we have sewage treatment plants that work.
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Well thanks for the invitation, I'm sure it's very nice, but it still doesn't tell me how much one has to pay for a family of 4 for health insuarance and how much it costs to put a couple of kids through college.
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Originally posted by storch
some people come here and never return home.
chmmmm ... Cuba, quantanamo or alcatraz ? :D
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Miami you meathead LOL.
I pay just under $1000.00 per month for health care.
I can't tell you what the cost for the colleges are my daughter has a full ride so all I pay for are books. I suspect it must be around $30,000 per year per child. My other daughter will probably get a full scholarship also with a GPA of 3.9 something and scoring is the 1300's for her SATs.
One can only hope.
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
but I prefer to go and buy a holiday house in Greece...each to their own
Yep, to each is own. I had an airplane for a while worth as much as a lot of holiday houses.
But then, I don't blame you for wanting to get out of the UK if you can swing it. ;)
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Originally posted by storch
Miami you meathead LOL.
I pay just under $1000.00 per month for health care.
I can't tell you what the cost for the colleges are my daughter has a full ride so all I pay for are books. I suspect it must be around $30,000 per year per child. My other daughter will probably get a full scholarship also with a GPA of 3.9 something and scoring is the 1300's for her SATs.
One can only hope.
$1000/month for health care? :eek: I take it that covers the whole family?
I have a BUPA plan which costs me about £350 per quarter or £1400 a year. I can get into a private hospital on that without queueing up behind the pl..., er, people less fortunate than myself. I think I'm doing them a favour, because my BUPA plan takes me out of the overloaded public hospital system and frees those resources for those more in need.
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i paid $2.30 for 93 today. looks like the rx7 gonna be in the garage most of the summer
ghosth hits the damn nail on the head; now that we liberated iraq and her oil for ourselves, why the hell are prices higher? what the hell was our reason for going over there? all it's done is get americans/iraqis killed and its not helping our economy any. :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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Moose, can it be that despite what blitz and the other parrots said, this really wasn't a "war for oil"?
;)
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Yep, wasn't for oil but for all those barrels of WMD they found from... errrr.... nevermind.
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Yup, covers the family of 5 including my daughter away at school.
Now, how much in percentages is your total tax burden, including VATs and taxes on fuel? Do you even know? mine is roughly $75k this year, not including the $11oddk in health care insurance. That leaves me about $90k disposable and I'm a grunt. Well not quite true I own a welding and fabrication shop and we do some pretty neat things every now and then.
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Originally posted by storch
Now, how much in percentages is your total tax burden, including VATs and taxes on fuel? Do you even know? mine is roughly $75k this year, not including the $11oddk in health care insurance. That leaves me about $90k disposable and I'm a grunt. Well not quite true I own a welding and fabrication shop and we do some pretty neat things every now and then.
Difficult to say. Prices for goods in shops/restaurants include VAT as required by law, whereas in the US, tax is added on at the point of sale. I spend about £1500 a year on road fuel. But it's impossible to estimate the tax taken in indirect taxes. However I can tell you that it is much higher now than before Tony Blair came to power. Since then, I'd say the indirect tax take has risen by 50%.
Tell me about school funding - you pay $30,000 for each child every year, but what happens when the school needs some major funding - eg, for a new gymnasium? I've heard the Principal has to "hit up" the parents...
But don't get me wrong. I prefer the American way. That's what Margaret Thatcher brought us. Top rate of income tax was reduced from 83% to 40%, and government got OUT of the business of running airlines and running car companies. VAT had to rise from 8% to 15%, but the people then had the CHOICE of how to spend their hard earned, instead of having a nanny govt doing that for them. Tony Blair's "New Labour" has reversed many of Thatcher's achievements.
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Hard for me to say regarding the school costs as our children were home schooled through highschool by their full time mom and the aid of pretty neat programs. the eldest which is in college is on a full scholarship, the middle one will probably score the same deal. my youngest is 13 so that isn't but five years away. That $75k figure includes my property taxes, all my estimated fuel taxes as well as estimated sales taxes. what i am saying is that arguably (even with healthcare incumbent upon me), economically speaking we are probably better off here than just about anywhere else. And in the course of my adult life I have lived and worked outside of the US.
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Originally posted by storch
Yup, covers the family of 5 including my daughter away at school.
Now, how much in percentages is your total tax burden, including VATs and taxes on fuel? Do you even know? mine is roughly $75k this year, not including the $11oddk in health care insurance. That leaves me about $90k disposable and I'm a grunt. Well not quite true I own a welding and fabrication shop and we do some pretty neat things every now and then.
then you are either not buying insurance on your own - ie not through a group, or your coverage is minimal. I tried one of those more inexpensive health insurance programs for small business - and they didnt cover crap. I had over 10,000 worth of out of pocket medical expenses that year with 2 small kids. Insurance is highly overpriced, and your numbers are extremely cheap for the US. wingnut.
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Ya it's through a group the coverage is good for hospitalization with a $2500.00 deductible terrible prescription coverage though.
There are 5 families on the plan all working for us in our shop.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Tell me about school funding - you pay $30,000 for each child every year, but what happens when the school needs some major funding - eg, for a new gymnasium? I've heard the Principal has to "hit up" the parents...
I've never heard of that. If you're talking about colleges and universities, of course they have funding drives - mostly targeting alumni and businesses, as parents are usually not real happy to fork over more $$ on top of tuition. Public schools (primary and 2ndary) may have funding drives (bake sales and similar BS that obviously aren't much beyond teaching kids how to fund-raise).
But like any other institution, colleges, universities, and gradeschools pay for most their capital investments out of their budgets - usually by taking out loans and paying them back out of their tuition income.
ed: I was paying around $15k a year for in-state (subsidized by the state of Michigan) tuition and housing at a major public university, while an out of state student would have paid around $18k-20k a year (no subsidy).
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We have great prices on almost anything there is : housing, cars, gas, utilities, food, hotel lodgings ( stayed in a suite in CA last night, full kitchen, high speed internet etc, $109.00, in another right now, $129.00)
It's not hard for people that are motivated to make a great living here. I would never want to mess up our way of life and become a high taxed, socialist society.
We also do not depend on anyone for our self defence. We pay for our military, space programs, development ( like the internet itself), we have among the best medical facilities on earth and still pay less taxes and live better than almost any country.
Yeah, we have a good system. Is it the best? I would never say that, just that I love it here and I think it's cat's arse!
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Originally posted by NUKE
I would never want to mess up our way of life and become a high taxed, socialist society.
Ahh, but we're already well on our way. It's up to people who think like you and I to stop it, because the republicrats aren't going to do it.
Our way of life is already messed up by socialism.
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Originally posted by Toad
Yep, to each is own. I had an airplane for a while worth as much as a lot of holiday houses.
But then, I don't blame you for wanting to get out of the UK if you can swing it. ;)
lol I actually like living and working in the UK, I won't retire here but Wimbledon is pretty nice for London, I tried the US for a year after working in Hong Kong - well California which probably isn't a good example of America I suppose and find the UK less of a culture shock than the US was.
It's interesting to see the "no free lunch" argument that was raised, I'd agree, but I'd say low fuel prices are America's free lunch whilst American's would say, free healthcare and education for everyone was ours....
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
lol I actually like living and working in the UK, I won't retire here but Wimbledon is pretty nice for London, I tried the US for a year after working in Hong Kong - well California which probably isn't a good example of America I suppose and find the UK less of a culture shock than the US was.
It's interesting to see the "no free lunch" argument that was raised, I'd agree, but I'd say low fuel prices are America's free lunch whilst American's would say, free healthcare and education for everyone was ours....
You don't have "free" heathcare, lol.
We have almost everthing less expensive over here, plus we fund the most powerful military on earth...all the while paying less tax than you. A lot of the socialist EU countries might be impressed by "free" healthcare, but most could not even defend their nation without outside help.
We have it all in America.
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Why are you lot so defensive and so eager to proclaim that your way of life is "better" than anyone else's?
I'm very happy for you but it is a bit like watching 9 year old's argue that McDonald meals are the best in the world and the only thing that's worth eating!!
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If you want to settle for second best, okay.. ;)
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Why are you lot so defensive and so eager to proclaim that your way of life is "better" than anyone else's?
I'm very happy for you but it is a bit like watching 9 year old's argue that McDonald meals are the best in the world and the only thing that's worth eating!!
When exactly did I say my way of life was better than yours?
I will say that my way of life is better protected than yours
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Originally posted by GScholz
They won't tell ... they'd hate to give you the opportunity to say "Well I pay only $xxx in tax for that".
We get what we pay for!
Like he said the best medical care in the world.
No long waiting lines for office visits.
And dont even get me started on the dental problems you britts have LOL Geez how do you eat with those thangs LOL.
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Originally posted by lada
chmmmm ... Cuba, quantanamo or alcatraz ? :D
Yeah we gotta have somewhere to keep the trash.
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Originally posted by NUKE
We have great prices on almost anything there is : housing, cars, gas, utilities, food, hotel lodgings ( stayed in a suite in CA last night, full kitchen, high speed internet etc, $109.00, in another right now, $129.00)
Last year i used to stay in some corean hotel at Istambul
there were empty kicken (w/o food i mean) but there was high speed internet, living room, TV, for 8€/night :D
over here i realy dont know it is somewhere between 25-80€
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Originally posted by txmx
We get what we pay for!
Like he said the best medical care in the world.
No long waiting lines for office visits.
and what other medical system did you see ?
For example, when i were in hospital at Kermanshash at 20:00
there were no queue and band of great doctors, whitch did know name of our president :eek:
here you can find queue on some specialized stations sometimes.
but our medical system is pretty FUBAR
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Originally posted by NUKE
You don't have "free" heathcare, lol.
We have almost everthing less expensive over here, plus we fund the most powerful military on earth...
Something is called standart health care and its free here (you pay something like 20€ as insurence for it)
If you wanna something way better, here are a lot of private clinics.
So i have no problem with professional health care over here.
We can chose what to use.
Actualy how often and for how long time do you travell abroad ?
Im not quite sure if you have everything most cheap.
I can bet that food is much more cheap over here.
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Originally posted by lada
Something is called standard health care and its free here
Sorry lada but it ain't free.
Doctors and Nurses need to be paid, drugs need to be purchased, electricity needs to be generated, hospitals need to be built and maintained, etc, etc, etc.
It all costs money.
It either comes out of your pocket directly in a bill, or indirectly in insurance, or indirectly in tax.
Aint nothin free in this world.
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Funny how NUKE is in CA and hasn't noticed how it is progressing towards socialism. Even I have observed that, since the 70s. Wasn't CA a staunch republican state back then? Home to Nixon? And now what is it - Kalifornia, Democrat, and welfare bums.
Schaden - you live in Wimbledon? In the 70s, I spent some years living in Raynes Park - or West Wimbledon as the snobs knew it. :D One of my friends of that era still lives in the area - New Malden.
Strk - I read somewhere you played trombone? Same here - lol - B-flat tenor, ie without the left thumb job for a virtual 6 on the slide. Would love to get hold of some CDs of big American bands.
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you mean the people's republic of kalifornia?
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Originally posted by beet1e
Funny how NUKE is in CA and hasn't noticed how it is progressing towards socialism. Even I have observed that, since the 70s. Wasn't CA a staunch republican state back then? Home to Nixon? And now what is it - Kalifornia, Democrat, and welfare bums.
Schaden - you live in Wimbledon? In the 70s, I spent some years living in Raynes Park - or West Wimbledon as the snobs knew it. :D One of my friends of that era still lives in the area - New Malden.
Strk - I read somewhere you played trombone? Same here - lol - B-flat tenor, ie without the left thumb job for a virtual 6 on the slide. Would love to get hold of some CDs of big American bands.
Wimbledon has been seriously smartened up - something to do with all the tennis players, speaking of which the place is going to be heaving with them any moment now....
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Originally posted by beet1e
Strk - I read somewhere you played trombone? Same here - lol - B-flat tenor, ie without the left thumb job for a virtual 6 on the slide. Would love to get hold of some CDs of big American bands.
sure do - strictly jazz. I used to have a trigger/ horn with open wrap but I got rid of it to buy what I have now - silver King Liberty 2B circa 1960 with zero wear in perfect condition. It was like I found my soulmate.
I have a CD of mediocre production quality of my group - a big band - that was taped at a live show. If you really want some excellent live music check out "Ellington at Newport 1956" - the Duke rocks the newport jazz festival and almost starts a riot. Plus it has Paul Gonsalves 27 chorus solo in "Diminuendo and Crescendo in Blue" - good stuff and timeless.
/hijack off
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
free healthcare and education for everyone was ours....
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Sorry lada but it ain't free....
It either comes out of your pocket directly in a bill, or indirectly in insurance, or indirectly in tax.
Aint nothin free in this world.
Man, I gotta go look and see if those discussions I had with St. Santa are still on the BBS.
Amazing how many of the Euro guys really think it's "free" healthcare and university like Santa did.
Then, one day........ the light bulb goes on. Cripes, I'd have paid $50 for a pic of Santa's face when he finally realized where all that money comes from!
:rofl
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my dear friends... I SAID ITS FREE.... and then followed some text in () ......
So read my post again please
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If you think everyone chipping in 20€ covers the cost of "free medical care for everyone" you've still got a lot of learning to do.
Someday, you will finally figure it out too.
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Originally posted by Toad
If you think everyone chipping in 20€ covers the cost of "free medical care for everyone" you've still got a lot of learning to do.
Someday, you will finally figure it out too.
Some day you may learn reading
Some day you may realize that things whitch doesnt make sence to you are not may be stupid, you simply doesnt know all.
I will keep you in this since, you have no clue, how does insurance system here work, nor how money flow....
Use google if you wanna know more.
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LOL. You'll figure it out someday.
TANSTAAFL.
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Yeah, but having them and knowing what to do with them are two different things, arent' they?
Not sure? Ask the Dutch.
Yeah, "free". The hospitals just magically appear, the doctors and nurses work for "free", machinery can be created by saying "I wish I had a PET scan machine" and the pharmaceuticals grow spontaneously like weeds in a cow pasture.
:rofl
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That's your best?
Hey, is your Army "free" too? :rofl
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Originally posted by GScholz
Sure, but we still HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM.
Duh!
Ever heard the experssion "You can pay me now or you can pay me later?"
TANSTAAFL.
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Point is you probably pay more at the end of the day than we do. And we have more of a choice in how/where to spend.
Hey, if you want your government to do all the spending for you, it doesn't bother me in the least. Your call to make.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Sure, but we still HAVE TO PAY FOR THEM. Thanks for the attack though, I guess our soldiers might be better at guarding prisoners though. No sodomy etc.
i would be that sure mate
our Elite unit , whitch guard president is famous.... They are famouse since every 3 months some soldier raped another soldier inside unit.......
man they were supposed to be an elites :rofl
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It'd be mighty hard to show that wouldn't it?
I don't know what your tax structure is over there to pay for the "free" stuff.
Nor do I really care. I think it's grand, however, that you are happy with your system.
;)
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Originally posted by GScholz
Europe got more planes, more tanks and more men under arms than the US of A, and we got "free" healthcare too.
You mean this kind of stuff?
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Toad, let me ask you this. Would you be willing to concede that the American way of health care through private insurance might not be the best way to approach health care? I understand that the Canadian/Eurpoean models you do not agree with. But what about another method.
Would you be willing to say that it should be a national goal that health care be provided to all americans who need it? we should provide that care in the most humane and efficient way possible?
And what if it really is the case that the money we spend as a nation already could pay for all the health care costs but for the insurance companies taking their cut, hundreds of millions out of the system, that leave 40 millions with no coverage who could have been covered. Do you think that the insurance companies should be guaranteed their millions even if it meant 40 million without health care?
And what do you think about Howard Dean's approach in Vermont, where they increased coverage using a number of different approaches and using the legal "machinery" that was largely already in place instead of a sweeping socialization or other drastic measure. Vermont achieved extremely high rates of insureds, way above the national average, and virtualy all of Vermont's children have insurance. THe only ones who don't have simly not applied for it yet. Vermont did this while balancing the state budget.
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First is by Nuke, not me.
Second is a reply to your measurement which I quoted above.
So, "You did it first!"
:p
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Originally posted by rpm371
Diesel is primarily a waste product of gas production. Until the introduction of diesel cars in the US in the mid 70 it was 50-60% less than 87 gasoline at the pump. After the introduction of diesel cars the price rose to 100-120% of 87 gasoline.
This would not be that big of a deal if it only affected those diesel cars. The problem is it affects transportation of goods. 18 wheelers average around 8mpg. When the cost of transporting goes up, it eventually makes it's way to the shelf price of goods. The trucker is not the one making the profit from the increase.
I say the overall pump price of gas is at least 50% higher than it should be simply because of oil company manipulation. Putting groups of refineries offline at the same time for overhaul instead of a staggered shedule creates a false shortage. The Energy Department has done NOTHING to stop this practice.
While the eyes of the nation have been focused on "The War on Terror" we have been letting the energy industry run wild. We need to take a look at the DOE and find out why this is being allowed to happen.
Not true, gas was for many years a dangerous by product of oil refining and was burned off at the plants.
Diesel engines have been around for nearly 30 years longer then gas engines and gas engines were developed as a cheep way to consume gas in a lightweight package.
Diesel has 17% more energy per pound and the engines that use it are much more efficient for many reasons, 2x higher compression ratios, little to no pumping losses, and much leaner combustion at low speeds are but a few.
I drive a 7300 pound 4X4 auto trans. with 325 hp and 600 pounds feet of torque that gets 19 mpg highway and 16 city, I am currently paying 1.73 a gal for #2 Diesel.
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Strk, like everything else, it's not an issue that is easily generalized.
For example, how much of our current health care costs are driven by our "somebody has to pay" legal system in which attorneys get huge percentages of the settlements? A system where "shot in the dark" lawsuits are common because the hope is the target will settle rather than litigate? In short, what piece of the action are the trial lawyers getting? I see you hammering those evil insurance companies, but not the Association of Trial Lawyers of America.
This is one huge lobbying machine. They're rabidly against tort reform. Who do they contribute to the most in order to achieve their goals?
(http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/img/dr_split/D000000065.gif)
You're after the insurance companies and rightfully so. It is unconscionable what they pay a CEO of HMO because the ones that make them most are the ones most successful at minimizing client benefits. Not to mention the other dirty tricks they pull, like authorizing medications based on pharmaceutical company kickbacks. They need their house cleaned.
But what's your position on tort reform? That probably has as much to do with health care costs here as anything the insurance companies do.
I'm not really deeply informed on Vermont's health care but could you read this article and tell me of any inaccuracies you find?
According to the Census Bureau, 9.5 percent of Vermont's population lacked insurance when Dean assumed office in 1991. About 9.7 percent lacked coverage at the end of his term (average of 1999-2001). Over the Dean years, Vermont fell from second to tenth in share of population with total health coverage. Such minute differences could easily be statistical noise, but if Dean claims to be the man who did something about the uninsured in Vermont, it seems there wasn't much of a problem to begin with...
...What does Vermont health care look like today? It's a mixed picture. The percentage of insured citizens is relatively high, but so are Medicaid rolls. It's not clear that Vermonters can sustain the state government's spending. Projections suggest that in Vermont Medicaid will run a $98 million deficit by 2008. And insurance premiums are sky high. "I'm paying a lot and getting little choice," a self-employed Burlington resident told me. He wasn't kidding: To cover his wife and himself, he pays $5,000 a year for a plan with a $1,000 deductible. Because most carriers have left the state, there are only a few insurance companies left in business.
Vermont's Badly Managed Care (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/565ovukj.asp)
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Originally posted by GScholz
Now can we dispense with this genetelia measuring contest?
Originally posted by GScholz (Mine is bigger, so THERE!)
Physician, heal thyself.
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Originally posted by Toad
LOL, get St. Santa to explain to you how he finally realized how much it costs in YOUR part of the world. ;)
Here's a clue.. TANSTAAFL
Hm, I've been looking at figures again Toad. Turns out we pay less of our BNP percentage wise than does the US - but we still manage universal health care.
The reason is quite simple: our administrative costs are much lower than in the US.
There are waiting lists for non critical operations though. Of course, private hospitals are available for those who wish to use them.
Other than that, I'll go back to watching Storch do his Euro-bashing thing. It's entertaining. Oh, and JG-54 rocks :D.
Jump prices haven't gone up despite the increase in fuel prices - our club just lowered them. $17 for 13 000 feet. Even beats the standard US price :D.
Jet-A1 for the turbines however...well, it smells so nicely that it's worth the extra cost. And it's great for kickstarting bonfires.
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So you've decided your parents are taxed fairly now?
And you're cool with the money you get as a student versus what your "neighbors" are making now?
;)
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Strk the health care issue certainly needs to be addressed. Look at it from another angle.
I have two friends that are physicians and one dentist. These guys all went to school forever and at great expense.
One works for the County Hospital and the VA he is a surgeon. He chose this path because he is a liberal and feels like he's giving, blah blah blah. Also he pays no malpractice insurance. Apparently if you die from a bad proceedure in the federal hospital/County Hospital there is no one you can sue.
The other is a private practice cardiologist, he pays IIRC approximately $350,000.00 a year for his malpractice insurance. That means that his patients are paying for that.
If we are to have a sensible and affordable health care system here in the US. it must begin with tort reform.
Both of these guys are in economic parity. The guy that makes the most money and has the most free time is the dentist, go figure.
He has six practices utilizes recently licensed grads to do the lion's share his work and accepts no insurance work at all. He also pays no malpractice, you sign a waiver, some sort of hold harmless document. They perform first rate work at half the cost of what others charge. a root canal with the crown is around $1500.00. I just recently had one done and he charged me half that amount.
It seems that if we think outside of the box a bit there are sensible solutions to the healthcare situation in the US.
The European and Canadian model started out as a marvel. But as the equipment and the facilities aged and there was no capital to upgrade they have sadly fallen behind and the quality of the service has suffered. It's just hard to beat free enterprise. I want whom ever is treating me for whatever to be happy and successful in their work. I want them to make lots of money also.
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Let's see.
Nuke makes a rather unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
You reply with a rather unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
I mirror your unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
You feel it's perfectly alright for you to mirror Nuke's unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
You feel it's simply terrible if anyone mirrors your unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
Got it. Thanks.
As to sodomy and advanced age, well, I'll have to defer to your undoubtedly vast interest, expertise and experience in sodomy. I have no experience in the matter whatsoever.
Isn't mirroring fun?
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Originally posted by storch
The European and Canadian model started out as a marvel. But as the equipment and the facilities aged and there was no capital to upgrade they have sadly fallen behind and the quality of the service has suffered.
How do you know Canadian and Europen dentists are having/using aged equipments ?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well, I don't presume to speak for YOUR military Lada.
i only saying that regarding military, you can not be never sure :)
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well, I don't presume to speak for YOUR military Lada.
well, you did include all of Europe when you mentioned military strength. I didn't know Europe had a cohesive military under one command.
When I said that the US system funds the most powerful military on earth, I meant to make a point about our system .
We have the best of almost everything you can imagine. We have world class: military, heathcare, science, research, technology, universities, space programs, and too many other things to list PLUS low cost of living and HIGH standard of living. Our system funds all of those, plus we get low cost of living and lower taxes than most of you.
We also do not have to depend on another nation to defend ourselves and protect our way of life, unlike a lot of countries that enjoy "free" healthcare. Ours system must be doing okay.
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Gsholz, the point is that the US system has given us all that we need and more. We live well, are not beholden to anyone for our safety, we have low taxes, high standard of living, best healthcare in the world and are taxed less than most.
We are not the most populous nor the largest country either, but our system has provided us with everything we need to protect our lifestyle and our standard of living.
Also, you can't have it both ways when you state that "we" fund the European military. There is no Eurpean military.
America is not bound by any other power, your country is dependent on others for it's very existance.
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Our space program.
Well one question has anyone else been to the moon?
Is anyone else sending probes to mars?
And most of the technology the russians are using they stold from us anyway LOL.
You guys are digging a giant hole for yourselves .
You simply will not win this argument gentlemen as America like us or not really is the BIG dog on this rock right now.
So go have another beer and keep on secretly wishing you where an American!:aok
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Originally posted by GScholz
Are you deliberately trying to be dumb?
Please explain what you mean and I will answer you.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Are you saying the European taxpayer isn't paying for military? Or perhaps you're saying no European state has a military?
hello? Who commands the European military?
Each country in Europe has it's own military, no different than almost any other country. What you are trying to say is that Europe has a united military, which is false.
I could just as well claim that the US funds the European military, and is thus twice as large as we are alone.
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Originally posted by GScholz
which means that every European pays just as much in tax for their military,
Not necessarily. How are you defining "pays just as much"?
As much cash total? As much tax total? As much tax as a percentage? GDP? What? What's the yardstick you're using?
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Idiot! I have never said Europe has a unified military
I pointed out that we (Europe) do fund a military the size of your own, or even bigger ... so your argument that the US taxpayer is paying more for defence is a moot one.
what does this mean then?
Nice job resorting to name calling by the way.
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Using dollar denomination, you're saying individual European citizens pay the same in dollars per year for defense as an American citizen?
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Originally posted by NUKE
Nice job resorting to name calling by the way.
He can't help it.
See, it's the US folks that are all the arrogant ones. :)
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Originally posted by GScholz
. Europe as a whole has a comparable military to the US in size, which means that every European pays just as much in tax for their military, AND STILL CAN AFFORD HEALTHCARE AND WELFARE.
I like how you include all of Europe.....hey, why can't I claim all of Europe too when discussing the US military? We are more a part of the European military than you are. Your point is funny.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Yes.
yet you ignore the fact that the US contributes more to the European military than you do.
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Originally posted by GScholz
How so?
NATO
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Sources?
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Originally posted by GScholz
How does US membership in NATO contribute to the European military?
How does it not? By the way, you never said who commands the "European" military.
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Just saw an interesting comment:
"The United States Marine Corps is larger than any single continental European army."
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sometimes I wonder why I waste my brain power on certain people.
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Just to be clear and to enforce my point: there is no such thing as a European military. I win.
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You made the claim, chum. And your claim was the individual Euro taxpayer pays and equal amount for "national defense" as an individual US taxpayer.
What you've just stated doesn't really support that. And you obviously don't have any data to support it.
So, it's an assumption, not a fact.
Ta.
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Originally posted by Toad
You made the claim, chum. And your claim was the individual Euro taxpayer pays and equal amount for "national defense" as an individual US taxpayer.
What you've just stated doesn't really support that. And you obviously don't have any data to support it.
So, it's an assumption, not a fact.
Ta.
he also implies that Europe as a whole has a military..as in a unified force.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Last year the 15 member states of the EU spent about half as much as the US defence budget. Europe has 45 nations (including Russia). Even if you exclude Russia, the remaining 44 European nations probably spend more on defence than the US. If you want you look up the defence budgets for all European nations and compare them to the US, go right ahead. I'm not going to spend hours searching the net.
The US is as much a part of the European military as you or anyone else is.
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Based on Gsholz's arguments, the US combined with the rest of the world, spends more on the European military than his country does.
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Originally posted by GScholz
No, I've never made that claim.
oh, really?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Based on what?
NATO
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I'm done Gsholz, you are really not providing an intelligent argument.
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Originally posted by NUKE
hello? Who commands the European military?
UN ?
since we do not terrorize any region, we do not need central command, but in peace missions.
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Some of our American friends seem to forget that thier standard of living is subsidised by the rest of the world to a tune of $500,000,000,000 last year. The EU made up over 94 billion dollars of that subsidy.
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Subsidized? I don't remember any handouts. Did I get in the wrong line again?!!! :)
Nuttin wrong w/ loving one's country. I'm sure Norway is a grand place... been to Canada for a few hockey tourneys... always had fun. Have several Canadian friends... to be honest they tell me they'd prefer to live in U.S. due to lower income taxes.
I'm not sayin U.S. is better... but I wouldn't rather live anywhere else. :)
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Originally posted by Steve
Subsidized? I don't remember any handouts. Did I get in the wrong line again?!!! :)
That's understandable, the subsidy last year was in the form of a five hundred billion dollar trade deficiate. Basically, the US got five hundred billion dollars worth of goods/services (resources by any other name...) basically for free.
"I'm not sayin U.S. is better... but I wouldn't rather live anywhere else."
In alot of ways the US is better, and I'm glad you live in the country you love the best. Sometimes I feel like I'm living in the country I hate the least. ;)
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Originally posted by Toad
Strk, like everything else, it's not an issue that is easily generalized.
For example, how much of our current health care costs are driven by our "somebody has to pay" legal system in which attorneys get huge percentages of the settlements? A system where "shot in the dark" lawsuits are common because the hope is the target will settle rather than litigate? In short, what piece of the action are the trial lawyers getting? I see you hammering those evil insurance companies, but not the Association of Trial Lawyers of America.
This is one huge lobbying machine. They're rabidly against tort reform. Who do they contribute to the most in order to achieve their goals?
(http://www.opensecrets.org/orgs/img/dr_split/D000000065.gif)
You're after the insurance companies and rightfully so. It is unconscionable what they pay a CEO of HMO because the ones that make them most are the ones most successful at minimizing client benefits. Not to mention the other dirty tricks they pull, like authorizing medications based on pharmaceutical company kickbacks. They need their house cleaned.
But what's your position on tort reform? That probably has as much to do with health care costs here as anything the insurance companies do.
I'm not really deeply informed on Vermont's health care but could you read this article and tell me of any inaccuracies you find?
Vermont's Badly Managed Care (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/003/565ovukj.asp)
first of all, dont bother linking to RW spin trash like the Weekly Standard. You might as well site Matt Drudge or Rushbo.
Second - Med Mal does increase insurance premiums - but premiums also go up when insurance stock investments go south - this is well documented. Also people who have been injure by Med Mal need a system to redress those injuries, and bad things do happen. Also in every state and the federal system a defendant can get his legal costs paid by the plaintiff for frivolous lawsuits
and the big problem with med mal is that the state boards and the AMA are highly reluctant to pull a DR's license after he is sued, even if he causes serious injury. So we have this small percentage of MDs that get sued over and over again. This is part of the problem
Look at VA's solution - state supplied insurance for the highest risk MDs - thereby lowering insurance costs for all - not bad imo
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Originally posted by storch
Strk the health care issue certainly needs to be addressed. Look at it from another angle.
I have two friends that are physicians and one dentist. These guys all went to school forever and at great expense.
One works for the County Hospital and the VA he is a surgeon. He chose this path because he is a liberal and feels like he's giving, blah blah blah. Also he pays no malpractice insurance. Apparently if you die from a bad proceedure in the federal hospital/County Hospital there is no one you can sue.
The other is a private practice cardiologist, he pays IIRC approximately $350,000.00 a year for his malpractice insurance. That means that his patients are paying for that.
If we are to have a sensible and affordable health care system here in the US. it must begin with tort reform.
Both of these guys are in economic parity. The guy that makes the most money and has the most free time is the dentist, go figure.
He has six practices utilizes recently licensed grads to do the lion's share his work and accepts no insurance work at all. He also pays no malpractice, you sign a waiver, some sort of hold harmless document. They perform first rate work at half the cost of what others charge. a root canal with the crown is around $1500.00. I just recently had one done and he charged me half that amount.
It seems that if we think outside of the box a bit there are sensible solutions to the healthcare situation in the US.
The European and Canadian model started out as a marvel. But as the equipment and the facilities aged and there was no capital to upgrade they have sadly fallen behind and the quality of the service has suffered. It's just hard to beat free enterprise. I want whom ever is treating me for whatever to be happy and successful in their work. I want them to make lots of money also.
check out what Virginia is doing about the problem - imo it is a good and suitable solution - the state will insure high risk MDs, allowing lower insurance premiums for the rest of the Drs.
the current bill - http://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?041+ful+SB601ER
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Originally posted by Toad
Just saw an interesting comment:
"The United States Marine Corps is larger than any single continental European army."
that may be true but given the small size of the Corps I find it hard to believe
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Originally posted by NUKE
he also implies that Europe as a whole has a military..as in a unified force.
in my humble I think you assumed that
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When thinking about military power you shouldn't forget that many europen countries are having mandatory military service for all males.
Finland, Sweden and Norway alone are having 4 million more or less combat ready men who have served their time in army in different branches.
Only way to keep unwanted Russian visitors away from Fenno-Scandinavia... :D
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"Only way to keep unwanted Russian visitors away from Fenno-Scandinavia..."
Norway today? Finland tommorow?!
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119670,00.html
sniffing for oil? ;)
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All we have is water.... well maybe some day someone invents car which runs with water :)
(yeah I know how hydrogen is made)
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Hmmm. Water.....
http://www.wetland.org.za/news.htm=&NodeId=912&Id=24
http://www.icrc.org/Web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/htmlall/57JPL4
Well. When the US/UK corporations control all of the oil what do imagine they may go for next?
It may be a few years but the prep work has to begin sometime! ;)
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Basically, the US got five hundred billion dollars worth of goods/services (resources by any other name...) basically for free.
More likely for paper dollars and/or other financial instruments.
C'mon Thrawn.
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Oh, I see Strk. If it's an unpleasant fact you can just ignore it?
:)
Great debate tool!
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Vermont, the Health Care Nirvana:
(Strk, ignore these... they don't agree with your preconceived notions, so cover your eyes and say "nuuuuuuuuuuuuuuHHHHUUUUUUUUUU UUMMMMMMMMMMM!" until this thread goes away.)
Facing Up to Vermont's Health Financing Problem (http://www.ethanallen.org/commentaries/2000/health_financing.html)
What has happened over the years 1994 to1998 is this: Vermont's insurance "reforms" produced a drop of 30% in private individual insurance coverage and 24% in small group coverage, and nearly destroyed a competitive insurance market in the state.
Health Insurance Meltdown in Vermont (http://heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=14530)
Dean’s effort to make health insurance universally available in Vermont has in many ways backfired. What has become “universal” in the state are high health insurance premiums and a heavy tax burden needed to support the growing number of Vermonters covered not by private insurance but by government-run Medicaid. Moreover, the number of uninsured Vermonters has increased, not fallen, since Dean’s reforms took effect.
Gee, maybe it's not exactly the way Dean portrayed it? Maybe?
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Originally posted by strk
in my humble I think you assumed that
well, when I stated that the US funds the most powerful military on earth, he said:
Europe got more planes, more tanks and more men under arms than the US of A, and we got "free" healthcare too.
We pay for healthcare and a bigger military
He seems to refer to Europe as a single entity.
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Originally posted by GScholz
NO! NUKE DID! (Mine is bigger, so THERE!) :p
actually, You called me an "Idiot", all I did was state a fact.
And all I did was point out that most Eurpean countries cannot defend themselves without outside help, That is just a fact, not an insult. I tied that statement into the fact that the US system provides for our complete defense independant of any outside help.
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Originally posted by Toad
Let's see.
Nuke makes a rather unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
You reply with a rather unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
I mirror your unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
You feel it's perfectly alright for you to mirror Nuke's unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
You feel it's simply terrible if anyone mirrors your unnecessary, somewhat rude comment.
Got it. Thanks.
As to sodomy and advanced age, well, I'll have to defer to your undoubtedly vast interest, expertise and experience in sodomy. I have no experience in the matter whatsoever.
isn't mirroring fun?
hey Toad, what comment did I make that you are refering too? The guy starts out very early by calling me an idiot but I don't recall making a rude statement about him??
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My mistake, Nuke. I apologize. On rereading, it really isn't rude.
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Originally posted by Toad
More likely for paper dollars and/or other financial instruments.
C'mon Thrawn.
Yeah, that's why I said basically for free. The world got a bunch of pieces of paper it can't use in exchange.
If the world decided to take those USD that it's accumlated over many years of huge trade deficiate and buy American stuff, Americans would quickly find thier standard of living drop like an anvil as they sold trillions of dollars worth of actual resources and thier dollar worth next to nothing as the US market is flood with all those pieces of paper.
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We must be a lot smarter than those people then. W00t.