Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: deSelys on May 13, 2004, 07:58:54 AM
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from aljazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3897D0E4-B263-46FA-B96D-A89AA3C4F4C8.htm)
Some condemn it, some criticize it as "counter-productive", some approve it.... some see it as a complot and some even point out the "silence on the atrocious crimes committed in Iraq"....
The bottom line is, to every decent man in the world, whatever his race, culture and religion are, cold blooded murder and torture can only be viewed as completely against the universal human morals.
to the Arabs condemning the murder, to the Westerners condemning the tortures.
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(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/TheGoodTheBadTheMedia-X.gif)
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Originally posted by deSelys
from aljazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/3897D0E4-B263-46FA-B96D-A89AA3C4F4C8.htm)
Some condemn it, some criticize it as "counter-productive", some approve it.... some see it as a complot and some even point out the "silence on the atrocious crimes committed in Iraq"....
The bottom line is, to every decent man in the world, whatever his race, culture and religion are, cold blooded murder and torture can only be viewed as completely against the universal human morals.
to the Arabs condemning the murder, to the Westerners condemning the tortures.
Another perspective:
Beheading of American shocks world
(CNN) -- Video posted on an al Qaeda-linked Web site of the beheading of a U.S. civilian in Iraq has prompted outrage -- but some support -- around the world.
The film showed Nick Berg, a freelance communications worker from Pennsylvania, speaking briefly before being beheaded by his masked captors.
The Web site said the killing was carried out by Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, a top ally of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.
Images from the tape showing Berg and his captors dominated TV broadcasts and newspapers around the world on Tuesday and Wednesday, prompting condemnation from most world leaders.
UK Prime Minister Tony Blair described the killing as "a truly barbaric act" while White House spokesman Scott McClellan said the United States would vigorously pursue those who carried out the killing.
McClellan said the videotape showed "the true nature of the enemies of freedom. They have no regard for the lives of innocent men, women and children." (U.S. reaction)
One Kuwaiti newspaper used a picture of one of the killers holding the severed head and some Greek TV stations showed the execution, Reuters reported. Much of the world's media only showed images of Berg before his execution.
Arab media reacted cautiously to the killing, with some newspapers playing it down. But one Baghdad citizen, Adel Karim, told CNN: "If they are Muslims, the messenger of Allah, Mohammed, says, 'Don't kill, even sick dogs.'"
Another man from Baghdad, Atef Jassem, added: "Musab is a terrorist and all of the resistance is coming from outside Iraq, like Syria and other parts of the world."
But some in Afghanistan defended the murder, blaming the United States for starting a cycle of violence following the coalition invasion of Iraq.
Jabar Khan, a Kabul shopkeeper, said: "This beheading is a good act because the Iraqis have been oppressed and whoever is oppressed should defend themselves. As a Muslim I support this act."
There was also some measured sympathy in the most populous Muslim nation in the world, Indonesia.
In Jakarta, one resident, Budi, said: "Even hostages, under the teachings of Islam, must be treated humanely. If others did otherwise, it doesn't mean we should do the same.
"But then under the current conditions ... such chaos in Iraq ... we cannot blame the Iraqis whose lives have been totally destroyed."
In Japan -- as well as other parts of non-Muslim Asia -- Berg's murder was widely condemned.
In Tokyo, Norio Kato expressed sympathy for the United States' predicament in Iraq.
"I think the situation will become more of a quagmire, but if you think about world peace it's necessary for us to be there. I mean the Iraqis had that horrible president, didn't they?"
In Britain, some leading politicians said the execution highlighted the threat to coalition soldiers in the wake of allegations of abuse made against U.S. and British troops.
One of the masked men in the video read a statement saying the beheading was revenge for the "Satanic degradation" of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers.
Menzies Campbell, foreign affairs spokesman for the opposition Liberal Democrats, said on Wednesday: "This is an act of undiluted barbarism which will fill every civilized person with horror.
"It only serves to emphasize just how dangerous Iraq has become for coalition forces, including the British."
Iranian radio accused western media of using the images for propaganda purposes. "As a result the issue of Iraqi prisoners' torture has been totally ignored by these media," the Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran said, according to Reuters.
The British Red Cross said it was shocked and appalled by the killing and would pursue those responsible and bring them to justice.
Spokesman Leigh Daynes told the UK Press Association: "The rules of war, of which the Red Cross is the guardian, apply to all belligerents in times of armed conflict, and we would expect the rules of war to be observed at all times.
"This extends to the protection of innocent civilians caught up in conflict."
Iraqi Human Rights Minister Bakhtiar Amin said Iraq would do everything within its power to bring Berg's killers to justice.
"Those psychopaths who committed this immoral crime should be brought before justice very rapidly and get their deserved punishment," Amin said.
Edward Rendell, governor of Berg's home state Pennsylvania, said he was appalled at "the horrific and inhumane way" the 26-year-old had been killed.
"The captors of Nick Berg who perpetrated this atrocity misread the American people," he said.
"If they think that acts like this will cause the American people to decide that the time to cut and run has come, they will find that the American people will have their resolve strengthened by atrocities like this."
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"Iranian radio accused western media of using the images for propaganda purposes. "As a result the issue of Iraqi prisoners' torture has been totally ignored by these media," the Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran said, according to Reuters. "
What a load of crap.....
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When are americans going to get smart & start blaming the REAL culprits.
The MEDIA!
They have HARPED on this prison torture thing for 2 weeks and THIS is what they get for a reward, MORE NEWS!
Which they can beat to death for another 2 weeks till someone else dies in a newsworthy fashion.
Americans are being judged not by us, decent, careing hardworking people. But by our news media that could care less what it is as long as it sells.
Enough, turn off cnn, don't buy a paper (well except sundays of course).
They are trying to get our attention, well maybe its time they got it.
Maybe its time the news media got shook up. Maybe we should be shooting camera men & talking heads instead of
poor arabs.
Maybe its time WE decided who we wanted to run for office instead of the MEDIA shoving it down our throat!
Then maybe the world could go back to doing its thing in peace.
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Maybe more shark attacks will shift Media focus Ghosth? ;)
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LOL
Remember how loud the media screamed when journalists were abducted?
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Originally posted by mosgood
"Iranian radio accused western media of using the images for propaganda purposes. "As a result the issue of Iraqi prisoners' torture has been totally ignored by these media," the Voice of the Islamic Republic of Iran said, according to Reuters. "
What a load of crap.....
CC...and maybe an iranian reading on this board the numerous posts regarding the silence of the Arab world and imams about Berg's execution would say:
"What a load of crap..."
Information is rarely complete and reliable.
I agree with Ghosth (and not only because he is my CO!)
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http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html
Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the United Arab Emirates issued official statements denouncing the murder.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
(http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/TheGoodTheBadTheMedia-X.gif)
This picture is pretty dumb, as the media has covered the murder of nick berg far more the past day then what was going on over in our pow camps.
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I don't know why it surprises you guys that the world would react differently to both atrocities.
The gruesome beheading of Mr. Berg was certainly shocking and despicable, but how many here are really surprised that al-quaeda(or terrorists in general) are capable of doing something like this?
On the other hand, the great American nation, the pillar of justice and humanity throughout the world, gets caught abusing prisoners of war in violation of not only the laws of the Geneva convention, but of the laws of decency and fair treatment as accepted by the civilized western world.
From a media perspective, which is the bigger, more surprising story? Seems obvious to me.
No reasonable American can fail to be humiliated and angered by the shocking news that our heroic and honorable troops have been caught being not very honorable. Regardless how the terrorists behave, we should expect that our troops will treat prisoners with human decency in accordance with the Geneva convention. Anything less brings us down to their level of barbarism.
Instead of condemning the news media, we should be thanking them for bringing this to our attention. A news media that alerts the American public to abuses by its soldiers and government is doing its job. "Don't shoot the messenger" is the most appropriate phrase.
Btw Ghosth, didn't you resign as squad XO many weeks ago? You are still advertising youself as my XO, which you are not.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
When are americans going to get smart & start blaming the REAL culprits.
The MEDIA!
They have HARPED on this prison torture thing for 2 weeks and THIS is what they get for a reward, MORE NEWS!
Which they can beat to death for another 2 weeks till someone else dies in a newsworthy fashion.
Americans are being judged not by us, decent, careing hardworking people. But by our news media that could care less what it is as long as it sells.
Enough, turn off cnn, don't buy a paper (well except sundays of course).
They are trying to get our attention, well maybe its time they got it.
Maybe its time the news media got shook up. Maybe we should be shooting camera men & talking heads instead of
poor arabs.
Maybe its time WE decided who we wanted to run for office instead of the MEDIA shoving it down our throat!
Then maybe the world could go back to doing its thing in peace.
To coin a phrase taken from another post:
"Turn off the G**Damn AM radio!"
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"alert" is one thing, to grind into the ground/inflame hatred for their personal gain is another.. the investigations were already under way when the media got hold of the photos.
the media did not break the story, the military was already handling it...the media did nothing but inflame the hatred of us to our enemies for a bag of gold.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/13/iraq.berg/index.html
Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and the United Arab Emirates issued official statements denouncing the murder.
At, bloody last.
Thanks for the post, Tarmac.
Ravs
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thats right Ghosth... kill them! kill them all!! better yet, BURN them!! Burn their buildings, burn the presses.. Burn the papers! Damn them for reporting news! Burn them all!! Burn the libraries!! Burn the books!! Lets all gather in large circles expressing our own perfections and BURN!! Yes, BURN those stupid books! If people read it, they might want to copy it or worse! BURN IT ALL!!!!!!! BURN the forest so we have no more paper!!! Burn, BUrn!! BURN!!!!
DAMN YOU free-press! you must BURN!!!
dude
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Originally posted by Eagler
"alert" is one thing, to grind into the ground/inflame hatred for their personal gain is another.. the investigations were already under way when the media got hold of the photos.
the media did not break the story, the military was already handling it...the media did nothing but inflame the hatred of us to our enemies for a bag of gold.
At one turn we have folks talking how America is great because we started investigations and started the wheels of action against those responsible for the terrible acts carried out by our troops. How we differ from those we wish to denouce because of such actions.
On the other hand, you have folks like Eagler here unknowingly screeming we are no better than those we wish to cast out... Rightous indeed..
dude
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Grind into the ground? what a party puppet.
Hell when the scandal broke it had been almost a YEAR after the crap started and what we've heard has been only the tip of the iceburg. If it wasn't for the news diggin into it the public would not know what a huge problem this is instead of what I'm sure the US administration would rather people believe whic is that all of this was a few rogue soldiers at fault.
IMO the prison abuse situation is a symptom of a larger problematic "disease" that starts right at the top. For IMO there is no literally no difference between Bush, Blair,Rumsfield and Cheney using force to beat the crap out of Iraq and what the prison guards and intellegence interogators have done. When your leaders send a clear message that they can do whatever they want to because they have the power then who can seriously lay all the blame on the troops at the lowest rung of the chain of command? And who can fault the general and her underlings for denying responsibilty for thier actions and thier rampant finger pointing when that behavior too is something they've been tought to do by the leaders of thier country for the last several years.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
At one turn we have folks talking how America is great because we started investigations and started the wheels of action against those responsible for the terrible acts carried out by our troops. How we differ from those we wish to denouce because of such actions.
On the other hand, you have folks like Eagler here unknowingly screeming we are no better than those we wish to cast out... Rightous indeed..
dude
huh?
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Originally posted by Westy
Grind into the ground? what a party puppet.
Hell when the scandal broke it had been almost a YEAR after the crap started and what we've heard has been only the tip of the iceburg. If it wasn't for the news diggin into it the public would not know what a huge problem this is instead of what I'm sure the US administration would rather people believe whic is that all of this was a few rogue soldiers at fault.
IMO the prison abuse situation is a symptom of a larger problematic "disease" that starts right at the top. For IMO there is no literally no difference between Bush, Blair,Rumsfield and Cheney using force to beat the crap out of Iraq and what the prison guards and intellegence interogators have done. When your leaders send a clear message that they can do whatever they want to because they have the power then who can seriously lay all the blame on the troops at the lowest rung of the chain of command? And who can fault the general and her underlings for denying responsibilty for thier actions and thier rampant finger pointing when that behavior too is something they've been tought to do by the leaders of thier country for the last several years.
of course it is and if goron or skerry kerry were in charge it would never of happened ... righttttttttttttt
:rolleyes:
how about it was a group of sickos, uniform or not, caught red handed and now will pay the price.. but pls lets blame Bush (again) and raise the hate level against our entire country & the western world in the process
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Your link is dead. Do you have another?
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"of course it is and if goron or skerry kerry were in charge it would never of happened ... righttttttttttttt"
Like I said. You're a "party puppet"
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(http://www.cradlesofdistinction.com/assets/images/thumbs/COD00247thumb.jpg) LOL
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Huh. The jokes on you ya puppet. I remain a steadfast independent and refuse to join either politcal establishments. I did not vote for Clinton or Gore and I will not vote for Kerry either. And it almost goes withouth saying that the worst of the bunch is Bush and I will never vote for him or anyone from his administration that may run for office in the future.
I guess it would suck real bad for you if you're unable to label someone accurately (although I may be wrong in thinking you'd ever try to be accurate) as a liberal or Democrat.
Why! You'd be just like that loser of a character Archie Bunker wouldn't you?
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Westy are you gonna vote at all this year?
In some way it seems that you and I are quite similar, except that I swing to the right and you seem to swing to the left in your views. However both of us refuse to join the parties and are both uncomfortable with voting for the current crop of politicians whether we agree or disagree with their general policies.
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You guys shouldn't be so smug about not voting. By not voting you have pretty much cast your vote for the candidate that wins.
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I will Grunherz but I don't know who yet. One thing I will do is stay true to beliefs and I won't toss it away on a candidate simply because he is only a little less sick and dishonest in comparison to the other.
I've been thinking lately of writing in McCain on my ballot.
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Every time a political subject comes up on these boards I am surprised by the ease certain people resort to blaming the media.
'Regardless the problem, it must have been caused by the media!'
The funny thing is, they would love to shut down those media that don't completely support their views, while on the other hand those who hold opposite views don't have the desire to do so with Fox and other puppet comedies.
Says quite a lot about those involved...
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Originally posted by Westy
I will Grunherz but I don't know who yet. One thing I will do is stay true to beliefs and I won't toss it away on a candidate simply because he is only a little less sick and dishonest in comparison to the other.
I've been thinking lately of writing in McCain on my ballot.
mr westy is from the NE
mini jfk has him in the bag LOL
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
This picture is pretty dumb, as the media has covered the murder of nick berg far more the past day then what was going on over in our pow camps.
Seriously, I agree. I mean... the WHOLE DAY they showed pictures of Nick Berg inbetween the prison coverage that has been going on for two weeks!
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"mr westy is from the NE. mini jfk has him in the bag LOL"
Yeah. You see things no one else can Archie!
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
This picture is pretty dumb, as the media has covered the murder of nick berg far more the past day then what was going on over in our pow camps.
As they should!
Lets se inocent man gets beheaded and you think a bunch of dumbarse Iraqi prisoners should get more airtime.
Yeah I can see where that is way more important.
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Originally posted by AKIron
You guys shouldn't be so smug about not voting. By not voting you have pretty much cast your vote for the candidate that wins.
And to thnk there are some people on this planet who fight and die to vote, and some of the clowns here fail to recognize their rights in this country.
Don't vote, then don't complain.
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Originally posted by Westy
"mr westy is from the NE. mini jfk has him in the bag LOL"
Yeah. You see things no one else can Archie!
that's right MeatHead LOL
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I heard today that Hezbulla called the killing "unMusilm" and condemned it. I have no official source though...anyone else hear this?
I saw the part of the video today. Made me sick. I couldn't watch the whole thing.
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Saudi, UAE and Jordan... yep, the three countries with the best relations with the US.
Still waiting to hear from the religious sector; wonder what they think about chanting "Allah Hu Akbar" while you behead a civilian.
I just wonder if they think Allah would approve.
WWAD?
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Your information is correct, Curval. It's been on the news here a few times. Although Hizbollah (sp?) go on to say that this was an American plot to take the attention off the prisoner scandal :rolleyes:
Ravs
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Originally posted by Toad
Saudi, UAE and Jordan... yep, the three countries with the best relations with the US.
Still waiting to hear from the religious sector; wonder what they think about chanting "Allah Hu Akbar" while you behead a civilian.
I just wonder if they think Allah would approve.
WWAD?
It would be nice, Toad but at least this is a start.
Ravs
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I agree with Ravs, and the news of these muslims expressing condemnation for that barbarous act is encouraging to me.
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Originally posted by Toad
Saudi, UAE and Jordan... yep, the three countries with the best relations with the US.
Still waiting to hear from the religious sector; wonder what they think about chanting "Allah Hu Akbar" while you behead a civilian.
I just wonder if they think Allah would approve.
WWAD?
Perhaps it's just that you have to know where to look?
Authorities of the Sunni sect of Islam react to the incident here. (http://www.islam-online.net/English/News/2004-05/12/article08.shtml)
CAIRO, May 12 (IslamOnline.net) - Several scholars from Al-Azhar, the world's highest Sunni religious authority, condemned the decapitation of an American civilian by unknown people in Iraq, saying Islam stands against such acts.
"Islam respects the human being, dead or alive, and cutting off the American's head was an act of mutilation forbidden by Islam," Ibrahim Al-Fayoumi, a member of Al-Azhar's Islamic Research Academy, told IslamOnline.net.
He cited a number of verses from the holy Qur'an which affirm giving due respect to dead people regardless of their race or religion.
[...]
Mahmoud Emara, another member of the Academy, slammed the decapitation, saying it would harm the image of Islam.
"The mutilation even of enemies is rejected by Islam. A mistake could not justify another," he underlined.
[...]
Abdel-Rahman Al-Adawy, another member of the Islamic Research Academy, agreed.
"There is no basis in Islam to justify this, as Islam calls for justice and treating the prisoners with clemency," he said, noting that the occupation forces share a fair share of blame.
[...]
Mohamed Raafat Othman, an Academy member, said Islam deems mutilating the body of an enemy a "punishable" crime" because after all he is a human being.
Iraqi religious figures also had words of condemnation. (http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-05/12/article03.shtml)
BAGHDAD, May 12 (IslamOnline.net) – Iraqis strongly condemned Wednesday, May 13, the beheading of an American citizen in Iraq by unknown people, saying it is against the true essence of Islam.
Dr Muthana Harith al-Dhari, Secretary General of Muslim Scholars Association, strongly denounced the killing, saying it runs counter to the teachings of Islam and "does disservice to our religion and our cause."
The Sunni scholar stressed this is a condemned operation whether carried out by Iraqis or non-Iraqis and whether the slain was a civilian or a military personnel.
"Even if he was a military personnel he should be treated as a prisoner who, according to Shari'ah, must not be killed," he told IslamOnline.net.
Deputy Head of the Islamic Party Iyaad Samarrai said the abhorrent treatment of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. soldiers should never give an excuse for treating U.S. prisoners the same way.
"This is absolutely wrong," he told IOL, asserting that "Islam does prohibit the killing or the maltreatment of prisoners."
Samarrai said such acts harm the interest of the Iraqi people and their cause to end the U.S.-led occupation.
[...]
Al-Dawa Party, led by Shiite Interim Governing Council member Ibrahim Al-Jafari, also condemned the decapitation of the American citizen in the strongest possible terms.
"Undoubtedly, we reject these acts, which run counter to the true essence of Islam and are totally unjustified," said Jawad Al-Malki, a member of the party’s politburo.
He said such acts tarnish the image of Islam and play into the hands of subjective media.
"The beheading of Berg is shocking, grisly, unjustified violence and an act of terrorism," he told IOL.
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...Anyone notice the dude on the far right is wearing sneakers?
I think I'll defeinitely be lookig for more insurgents/terrorists' footwear from now on. I never noticed before...just seems odd to me.
And no, I have only seen vidcaps and don't plan on watching any part of the execution.
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Yeah.
But Erlkonig do you see anything specifically condeming the murder from the third cleric on the 88th step up the mineret in the 2nd mosque located in.......
....hold on let me get a very detailed map to find a very obscure, small arab village in let's say.... central Iran.... the village would be.....mmmmhmmmm... let's see....
Abyaneh!
Got any news of anything proclaimed by any cleric of some significance from the village of Abyaneh in central Iran?
No!
See!!!
There's your proof that the rugheaded, heathen bastidges would remain "mum" and that you could hear a veritable pin drop listening for thier condemnations.
[mockery mode = off]
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:)
Keep trying, Westy.
You know exactly what needs to be said to the "man in the street" and by whom.
And it's still not happening.
However, it's a beginning. The Sunni piece is the best reaction to date. Now if Al Jazeera would just make it headline news, right? Oh, wait.. that's like waiting for the 88th cleric on the 19th step of the mosque or whatever, right?
BTW, I do read the Islamonline site when things are happening, but I don't read it every day.
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Originally posted by Curval
I heard today that Hezbulla called the killing "unMusilm" and condemned it. I have no official source though...anyone else hear this?
Hezbollah, Hamas Condemn Beheading (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-arabs-american-beheaded,0,3515189.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines)
Saudi Officail Condemns Berg Beheading (http://www.newsday.com/news/nationworld/world/wire/sns-ap-saudi-berg,0,4167168.story?coll=sns-ap-world-headlines)
By BARRY SCHWEID
AP Diplomatic Writer
May 13, 2004, 10:57 AM EDT
WASHINGTON -- Saudi Arabia's ambassador to the United States condemned as "criminal and inhuman" the decapitation in Iraq of American Nicholas Berg.
Speaking in Arabic on Wednesday to the Saudi media in Jiddah, the Saudi summer capital, Prince Bandar said the al-Zarqawi group, which took responsibility for the execution, was "a criminal, deviant and un-Islamic group allied with (Osama) bin Laden and the criminals of al-Qaida."
Bandar said the group had also killed Muslims and Arabs for no reason.
"It is not out of character for them to commit acts that violate the teachings of Islam, a noble religion that deplores such acts," Bandar said in response to questions from the Saudi media.
Bandar's remarks were distributed Thursday by the Saudi embassy in Washington. Arab leaders often have condemned terror acts against U.S. citizens and facilities. Making the statements in Arabic to Arabs, as Bandar did, gives the criticism added authority.
The ambassador also said there was no doubt the abuse of Iraqi prisoners by some U.S. military personnel was "despicable and criminal."
However, Bandar said, the Saudi media "should be aware that we do not make the same mistake of generalization that was made by the U.S. media and certain American politicians" in accusing all Saudis of terrorism because 15 of the 19 Sept. 11, 2001, hijackers were Saudis.
Those accusations were "untrue and unacceptable," the ambassador said. "That is why we should now condemn only those who committed these horrendous acts against Iraqi prisoners and make clear that they do not represent the majority of the U.S. military and certainly not the American people and their morality."
The beheading of Berg, 26, a Jewish-American from West Chester, Pa., was broadcast on an al-Qaida-linked Web site.
The final movements of the telecommunications businessman remain unclear as officials in Washington and Baghdad try to piece together how he crossed paths with a group of Islamic militants who savagely decapitated him in a video released Tuesday bearing the title "Abu Musab al-Zarqawi shown slaughtering an American."
Authorities in Baghdad denied Berg was held in U.S. custody before he disappeared in early April, despite claims to the contrary by his family. The authorities said he had been held by Iraqi police for about two weeks and questioned by FBI agents three times.
Copyright © 2004, The Associated Press
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Toad, your goal posts are practically on wheels. You called for condemnation of the act by Islamic states and it came. Westy has a point; you seem to have set your view in concrete and are now waiting for the facts to back it up. When they don't quite fulfill your world view in the way you wanted, you shift criteria by becoming more and more specific. With each step you move towards a straw man argument, which will probably end with your indignation at Yasser Arafat's lack of sympathy with Berg's fate. Have you considered whether or not Islam has a central papal figurehead?
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START
FWIW, I dunno about this, but I found it on what looks like a rw-libertarian site, not a lefty hang out. I've watched the longer video (see below), and sure enough the clock jumps, and the page turning thing is weird. I dunno, I am just sick of it all. I guess somewhere all this **** must have been anticipated. I guess PNACs vision of Pax Americana must have been considered worth all this mess. The view from behind their eyes must be something to see. Anyways, here's the **** I found.
1) extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor
regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis
2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any
remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be
struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional
torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly
prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite "national
security" issues for witholding additional materials.
3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody.
4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue
(compare with pictures at Guantanamo).
5) Berg mysteriously captured by Al-Quaeda (still wearing jumpsuit). Either
he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit and
all -- to be immediately apprehended by Al-Quaeda (before he had a chance to
change).
6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited. Goes from a) Berg
sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with
hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost
motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.
7) Audio clearly dubbed in.
8) "Arab" reader flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up on
the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize what
page he's on?
9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.
10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.
11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still
alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would
have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's
clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible
blood on it.
12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg
would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.
13) Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were even open.
14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly
dubbed in.
15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information
about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a
positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his
identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by
family.
FWIW, the full video is here:
ENDS
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I finally watched the video yesterday. I also noticed the apparent lack of blood, although it's hard to tell with the low image quality.
I also noticed that Berg doesn't seem to move at all while sitting on the ground before the beheading begins. Could this be a doll / a corpse.
I still think that the conspiration theory is far less plausible than the execution by terrorists.
I would like to read the opinion of video experts on this tho.
From aljazeera again (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm)
I'll look for some similar raised questions on US/european news websites
edited for typos
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Originally posted by deSelys
I finally watched the video yesterday. I also noticed the apparent lack of blood, although it's hard to tell with the low image quality.
I also noticed that Berg doesn't seem to move at all while sitting on the ground before the beheading begins. Could this be a doll / a corpse.
Berg's corpse was found on a street in Baghdad. It doesn't matter what the video shows, they murdered him.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Berg's corpse was found on a street in Baghdad. It doesn't matter what the video shows, they murdered him.
CC that, but who is 'they' is still an important matter.
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Obviously the 'how' is also an important matter. What we dismiss for naught, may be what holds the key to it all.
After all, the "result matters over all else" is the very essence of how modern day Media works. The context is always left out. They thrive on the emotional flarings of the masses influenced by the "image", rather than take careful steps to explain what, where, when, who, why, and how.
I don' t think even the US would go that far as to attempt such a conspiracy. But it seems there's just a lot to more than meets the eye in this one.
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Originally posted by moot
START
FWIW, I dunno about this, but I found it on what looks like a rw-libertarian site, not a lefty hang out. I've watched the longer video (see below), and sure enough the clock jumps, and the page turning thing is weird. I dunno, I am just sick of it all. I guess somewhere all this **** must have been anticipated. I guess PNACs vision of Pax Americana must have been considered worth all this mess. The view from behind their eyes must be something to see. Anyways, here's the **** I found.
Kind of like that conspiracy report that claimed a cruise missile hit the Pentagon. Seems some just have to believe it to be anything but what it appears and will try to fit in explainations of 'facts' and 'evidence' to support their theory.
1) extremely convenient "wag the dog" timing at the height of furor regarding U.S. torture of Iraqis
Gee, could it possibly be that a small group of fanatical Iraqis could be so pissed to want revenge in the only way they know how? Look at what happened in Chechnya in how some Russian soldiers were executed. Danial Pearle also.
2) CNN poll question: "Is the Berg killing a reason for withholding any remaining Iraq prisoner abuse pictures?" Bush has been reported to be struggling with question of whether Pentagon should release additional torture photos. Given that the alleged decapitation of Berg was allegedly prompted by the first wave of torture photos, Bush could now cite "national
security" issues for witholding additional materials.
Seeing how Berg was killed because of those reports of prisoner abuse, it is understandable how Bush would want to keep even worse photos out of the public's eye. Remember, the govt. doesn't even want our viewing of coffins and body bags. Bad for the public to see to contiinue popular support for any war. Sometimes a picture can be far more damaging than the alleged acts portrayed that the public ceases to support the war.
3) Berg's last known whereabouts was in U.S. custody.
That was some time ago. He was last seen on his own in a hotel before he was abducted.
4) Berg shown in video wearing orange jumpsuit known to be of U.S. issue
(compare with pictures at Guantanamo).
I did, so should you. They are not even remotely similar. The silk-looking pajama outfit Berg was wearing was not a jumpsuit.
5) Berg mysteriously captured by Al-Quaeda (still wearing jumpsuit). Either he escaped from U.S. captors or U.S. let him out -- with orange suit and all -- to be immediately apprehended by Al-Quaeda (before he had a chance to change).
See above.
6) Tape obviously spliced together and heavily edited. Goes from a) Berg sitting in chair talking about family, to b) Berg sitting on floor with hooded "militants" behind, to c) blurry camera movement, to d) almost motionless Berg on floor as head cut off.
He was "motionless" while his head was being cut off because of:
A) Shock, B) He had his hands bound behind him, C) One of his killers was kneeling on him and holding him down.
7) Audio clearly dubbed in.
Didn't sound like it, more poor quality recording based on poor equipment. Only a camera mounted mic most likely.
8) "Arab" reader flips through pages of "statement" and keeps ending up on the same page. Perhaps doesn't even known enough Arabic to recognize what page he's on?
Look again. Looks like he was ending up on different pages. It was hard to tell, but he was not ending up reading from the same side through his whole speech.
9) "Arabs" have lily-white hands and (other exposed) skin.
LOL, most Iraqis have rather light to medium colored skin. No surprise there.
10) "Arabs" have Western-style body posture and mannerisms.
LOL, what is the difference. Perhaps you can show what an Iraqi fanatical body posture and mannerisms are supposed to look like.
11) When Berg decapitated, there was almost no blood. If Berg were still alive at this point, with the cut starting at front of throat, blood would have been spraying everywhere. Berg's severed head, the floor, Berg's clothes, and even the hand of the "Arab" who decapitated Berg had no visible blood on it.
The tape doesn't show how the cutting began. If an initial cut is made deep and large enough, there usually wouldn't be the spurting and spraying of blood one would think. Oh, there was a pool of blood on the floor where Berg was after the beheading.
12) Berg's body didn't move while on the ground. Although held down, Berg would have tried to instinctively wiggle and writhe away from captor's grip.
See above answer to #6
13) Camera angle made it impossible to see if Berg's eyes were even open.
That's important how?
14) Alleged "scream" from Berg sounded to be that of a woman and was clearly dubbed in.
That scream sounded to be from Berg. No, it was not "clearly dubbed in."
15) Berg goes to great trouble to identify himself, providing information about his family. Why? To elicit greater sympathy? Or to provide a positive ID. FBI visited Berg family in an attempt to "verify his identity". Guy in video looks very little like Berg photos provided by family.
I vaguely remember Daniel Pearle also giving personal info sometime before he was executed also.
Seems these killers want to use terror to try and win their war. By putting a face, name, and personality on their victims, they want it to hit home.
I believe that Berg believed he was not going to be killed. Up to that point he was probably treated decently (which explains his being somewhat seemingly relaxed in his interview). He was probably lied to about his having to be tied up in front of the camera to make sure he didn't escape. They probably used the assault rifle as a sign to him to keep still and quiet in front of the camera for the 'speech'. Notice that the large knife was hidden from view from everyone, esp Berg.
Up until that speech, he was probably lied to about his immediate future.
Sorry about my being a bit morbid and matter of fact about my answers, but these conspiracy people sometimes drive me nuts.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
After all, the "result matters over all else" is the very essence of how modern day Media works. The context is always left out.
Please provide us with the context which justifies the subject of the video.
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yeah, think that was rummy on the left, cheney on the right and bush holding the sword ... and if they continue to show those pictures, heads will roll!!!
you guys are paraniod with a hatred of this admin to the point of being a sicko
let the dead guy rest in peace and accept the fact he was killed by fat arabs with sheets over their rag heads
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Originally posted by deSelys
I finally watched the video yesterday. I also noticed the apparent lack of blood, although it's hard to tell with the low image quality.
I also noticed that Berg doesn't seem to move at all while sitting on the ground before the beheading begins. Could this be a doll / a corpse.
I still think that the conspiration theory is far less plausible than the execution by terrorists.
I would like to read the opinion of video experts on this tho.
From aljazeera again (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/4FFA61A3-9C33-4597-A8D9-8079E91F2784.htm)
I'll look for some similar raised questions on US/european news websites
edited for typos
You really can't be serious.:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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The video is weird. Certainly shocking at first, but some details definitely are hard to explain.
I said that the conspiration theory isn't very probable...If it was really a fake tape (simulation on a puppet or a corpse) made by the US government to draw the public attention from the tortures and to increase the motivation to continue the war, I can't imagine that the CIA or the like guys filming it making such huge mistakes like the big gaps in the time stamps...
Another possibility is the staging of the execution to cover up an 'accidental' death, i.e. Nick Berg dies in an Iraqi prison or police station and the Iraqis try to put the blame on someone else. Then the 'mistakes' in the tape would be easier to understand.
Of course, the higher probability is a 'slightly' staged execution by the terrorists to make the movie more horrific to watch, or to compensate for a technical video problem during the execution. And then it doesn't matter one bit...
Questions are still raised fro me though.
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Originally posted by deSelys
The video is weird. Certainly shocking at first, but some details definitely are hard to explain.
I said that the conspiration theory isn't very probable...If it was really a fake tape (simulation on a puppet or a corpse) made by the US government to draw the public attention from the tortures and to increase the motivation to continue the war, I can't imagine that the CIA or the like guys filming it making such huge mistakes like the big gaps in the time stamps...
Another possibility is the staging of the execution to cover up an 'accidental' death, i.e. Nick Berg dies in an Iraqi prison or police station and the Iraqis try to put the blame on someone else. Then the 'mistakes' in the tape would be easier to understand.
Of course, the higher probability is a 'slightly' staged execution by the terrorists to make the movie more horrific to watch, or to compensate for a technical video problem during the execution. And then it doesn't matter one bit...
Questions are still raised fro me though.
Investigate thoroughly and report
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There is much more to this story.. Dunno what, but much more..
The unemployed visitor was suspicious enough for Iraqi police to arrest him – with FBI knowledge.
Iraqi police?? Arresting americans? Am I the only one finding this odd? I understand Americans might 'stick' out in iraqi, but look suspicious? Suspicious of what? O yea I forgot.. The arabs must be carful w/ all the americans running around w/ high explosives straped to their bodies..
The Jordanian accused of the beheading Berg is himself believed to have been killed in March, according to two Islamist groups.
Strange...
An eight-page leaflet circulated this week in Falluja said Abu Musab al-Zarqawi was killed in the Sulaimaniya mountains of northern Iraq during a US bombing.
But even if it were the Jordanian, one discussion room member observes his face is so well-known that "why would he bother to cover it?"
Yes, all the info is not in yet on this story..
dude
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Please provide us with the context which justifies the subject of the video.
No one's death is a martyr's death. By "context", I am suggesting to look further than define this incident as a death of a one man, but rather what has become of the Middle East during the long years of Western intervention(not necessarily only the US) for the last 200 years.
The vicious cycle of brutal violence and hatred binds everyone who's interest has lead their paths to the desertlands which none may claim a moral victory.
I don't wish to turn this into a "who did it first?" match-up, but as sick as this crime is, the rest of the world finds the excuses US keeps making up as it goes, the whole WMD fiasco and bullshi* bullshi* bullshi*, and the bombings, killings, brutalities, and tortures equally sickening.
What they did to Berg was sick. But for instance, I feel what the US is doing in Iraq equally sick. I'm not even an Iraqui. So, after what has transpired through these brutal months, is it any wonder some people may actually feel solace in the "vengeance" mindset? I'd bet the Iraquis who lost their families due to US bombings won't feel so sick.
So ask yourselves mates, it's your war. Do you want to keep doing this shi*? Because like others said, sickening things come and go and the rest of the world's pretty tired of seeing "US somebody horribly murdered" and "US somebody horribly tortures" stuff in our newspapers. This horrible stuff will go on and on and on as long as your troops are there.
And a fat lot of good "oh my god, they killed XXX" sentiments and raged fists are gonna do anything to stop that.
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There's no moving goalpost.
There's very little in the way of "broadcast news" from either the "leading authorities" of Islam or the "Islamic governments" condemning this act.
Yes, the Islamic states most closely allied with the US have spoken. Yes, one or two Islamic sources have spoken.
There has not, however, been the widely publicized condemnation of this act by the general leadership of Islam/Islamic states that it's going to take to end this sort of barbarism.
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The goalposts didn't move - they got sucked into a black hole and entered an alternate universe.
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hey sab', I might have posted it, but didn't write it.
I wanted to see a proper picking at it, which you did, thanks.
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Originally posted by Toad
There's no moving goalpost.
There's very little in the way of "broadcast news" from either the "leading authorities" of Islam or the "Islamic governments" condemning this act.
Yes, the Islamic states most closely allied with the US have spoken. Yes, one or two Islamic sources have spoken.
There has not, however, been the widely publicized condemnation of this act by the general leadership of Islam/Islamic states that it's going to take to end this sort of barbarism.
Toad there never will be!
They will allways stick together against the eveil Ameerikins even if they know they are wrong .
And there lies the definition of ignorance.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
but rather what has become of the Middle East during the long years of Western intervention (not necessarily only the US) for the last 200 years.
Although there has been a cultural schism for a millenium, I think your time table is a bit long. The reason Columbus sailed west to get to the east was to bypass Arab traders of spices and other goodies from Asia. This was not intervention, it was trade.
The Ottoman Turks ruled huge areas of the mideast from about 1450 until WW1 and pretty much limited European intervention to Egypt. The Versallies treaty gave the remnants of the Ottoman Empire to France and UK.
Before that Salidin pretty much cleaned out the Crusaders.
Us intervention started in 1933 with oil companies.
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Ok I found last night another version of the video, 5+ mins long and with much bigger pictures than the first that I saw (which was just a little bigger than a thumbnail, without sound and lasting only 40-50 secs: the beheading in itself).
I have to admit that a lot of my questions are answered now (sorry for the disgusting details to follow): Nick Berg does move during the reading of his 'condemnation' (which he fortunately doesn't seem to understand). It's not a corps nor a doll. The blood is hard to see because the terrorists seem to have covered the ground with a dark brown mat, maybe to absorb the spilling. At some time I think it is possible to see the flow of blood.
And the time stamps are coherent with the hypothesis of 2 cameras recording simultaneously, the first with a 12:00:00 format time stamps, the second with a 24:00:00 format. One of the cams is 1 hour off, which is quite frequent with the daylight saving changes.
If I looked like an arnold to some of you, I'll accept it. It is only about me. However, I want you to know that my questions weren't meant to be disrespectful to the memory of Nick Berg but only a legitimate search for some truth during an era when images are potent weapons.
I'll also confess that, even after having been witness of some violent deaths or very serious accidents, I was much more upset by the second video than by the very first I saw. It suprised myself, because I knew what was going to happen, and what I was going to see, and I thought that I had learned over the years to rationalize such situations to avoid to be sucked into the emotional aspect of it. Bigger, clearer images, and sound were enough to shatter my resolve. I still don't assimilate Moslims with terrorists, and I'm still against the death penalty in most cases, but such a complete show of inhumanity only deserves the ultimate punishment.
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I don't think you look like an ***, I think that your typically euro pro Arab anti American/Israel view shows through. What you guys fail to realize is the Arabs are barbarous because they were created that way. But of course since you don't believe in creation that last statement to you is folly. I quote Genesis Chapter 16 verses 11 and 12 from the New International version of the Bible.
"The Angel of the Lord said to her:
You are now with child
and you will have a son
You shall name him Ishmael
for the Lord has heard your misery.
He will be a wild donkey of a man;
his hand will be against everyone
and everyone's hand against him,
and he will live in hostility toward
all his brothers."
This applied to the person of Ishmael and also to his progeny. Take an open minded view of the verse and see if it is not so.
Read a little before and after as well. genesis is a great read.
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Sorry Storch, but the kind of BS you're quoting is used by the Allah freaks (this is not an insult to Muslims) to justify the above discussed beheading.
People like you scare me.
And screw this (painfully if needed) through your thick skull until you find what remains of you brain: I'm not an arab lover nor a US hater.
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BOO
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Originally posted by storch
What you guys fail to realize is the Arabs are barbarous because they were created that way.
I presume you're a member of some american national-sosialistic party? *cough*nazi*cough*
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Apparently you're not too big on literacy
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Nah, it's just that his best argument is calling someone a *cough* nazi*cough*.
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Originally posted by Toad
Nah, it's just that his best argument is calling someone a *cough* nazi*cough*.
Funny argument, considering I haven't used it until now.
Can't say your best 'argument' was anything special...
Storch,
Literacy? theres lots of material to read and each claims their own stuff..
Surely theres material which claims the same of christianity or americans.
Somehow you just seem to forget your kind view of literacy is a double edged sword.
What about the arabs living in US? some of them are in better jobs than you are and hardly hostile.
What about all the arabs? heck, if all arabs would be like that, coalition would been already drove out of Iraq.
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Well, actually, I've never really seen you frame a cogent argument.
So, this is your first and best I guess.
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Originally posted by storch
What you guys fail to realize is the Arabs are barbarous because they were created that way.
hehe may be you should check reality about barbarous
http://www.worldmessenger.20m.com/weapons.html
http://www.kvinnonet.org/war/WarCriminals3.html
Btw. have you ever been abroad ?
Or you were scared that Europians will take skin of your body ?
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I travel extensively abroad, both Asia and Europe.
I'm pleased to say that you, lada, are not representative of the Europeans that I have met and of my European collegues that I have the pleasure to work with.
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Nope, Lada isn't representative at all of the Europeans I've met as well.
More in the "unique" category, I'd say.
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thanks for respond guys, but silly question were for storch
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Storch is about through with you lada. The US is the world's premier arms producer. So what? Do you think some puter tard in some third world toilet compiling useless data is going to cause even one of us to say OMG *gasp* and slit our wrists? I am very glad we produce the most and best weapons in the world. After all thats why were are the best at everything we do.
Arabs have been throughout history, more barbarous then even the europeans. The cruelest forms of torture and methods of execution were thought up and implemented by the decendants of Ishmael.
Yes, I have been abroad, probably moreso than most people.
What has that to do with anything?
It still doesn't change the fact that euros are politically retarded and that Arabs are barbarians.
does this mean all? No certainly not. But enough for me to condemn the entire culture? Yes absolutely so. This is my opinion.
What about the Arabs in America you ask. Those that will be born here or those mix with us will be fine. The true greatness about our way is the concept of e pluribus unum. they will assimilate and our great people, our generous people and our superior moral and political system will make Americans of them all. They will be Americans first and muslims second. Just like I am American first. Just like my Jewish friends are Americans first. Just like my B'Hai friends are Americans first. and lastly just like my Muslim friends are Americans first. Religion will become a tolerated cultural aspect of the person and they are liked or disliked for who they are and not because of where they are from.
But you are too silly to understand this.
I have a cure for you. come visit America. If one of our gun nuts doesn't kill you you will return to europe a changed woman.
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Wow! Are immigrants to America required to go through some sort of brain control process?
It's an odd thing, but the two of the most jingoistic, drum beating, America is always 'right' (whatever that means) people on this BBS are first generation immigrants.
Storch, of course you're entitled to your views, but don't you think you're going a bit over the top?
For a start this:
Arabs have been throughout history, more barbarous then even the europeans. The cruelest forms of torture and methods of execution were thought up and implemented by the decendants of Ishmael.
is just plain wrong. If you want details, I'll be happy to provide them.
And this:
our great people, our generous people and our superior moral and political system will make Americans of them all
are the sorts of words I'd expect to hear from some Banana republic dictator (insert country of choice).
Sorry Storch...I think you need a course of cynicism.
Ravs
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Weird.
I have seen some old video from WWII where Japanese beheading Americans after been captured in Wake Island and also Doolittle boys also were beheading by Japanese.
It just sick to cut someone head off.
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Originally posted by storch
I have a cure for you. come visit America.
Ahhhh.. i see that you dont even know anything about your foreigner policy.
How is it possible that someone so smart dont know how it goes when we are about to travell to US ?
I will give you tip.:
We are to dangerous to US, so we are not allowed to travell over there, specialy if we had some relatives or fiends over there.
Dammm we are so dangerous :D
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Well Ravs, that would stand to reason as I am from a so called banana republic making me a banana republican ( I was born in Cuba and was a refugee until I was naturalized an American Citizen at the age of 6 years). Though no one that I know was the dictator I guess the rhetoric is just in our genes. I will never hold a cynical view of my pure and perfect America. I reserve that exclusively for all other forms of human life generally never specifically. I like individuals but generally hold the other nations of the world in low esteem. the exceptions are Chile, Japan, Korea, England and her commonwealth, Poland, Hungary, Romania, Czechoslovakia, Germany, Finland, Spain, Italy & Israel. These countries I respect to great degree. Let's face it America can do no wrong past, present or future. America is just too perfect. Be reasonable see it my way.
God Bless America, Land that I love.
Stand beside her and guide her
through the night with the light from above.
From the mountains, to the prairies, to oceans
white with foam.
God bless America, my home sweet home
God bless America, my home sweet home.
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Good and gracious answer.
Thanks Storch!
Ravs
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hey stroch thanks for explanation, but Czechoslovakia dont exist since 1991.
Its almost 13 years ago :D
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Originally posted by storch
Storch is about through with you lada. The US is the world's premier arms producer. So what? Do you think some puter tard in some third world toilet compiling useless data is going to cause even one of us to say OMG *gasp* and slit our wrists? I am very glad we produce the most and best weapons in the world. After all thats why were are the best at everything we do.
Arabs have been throughout history, more barbarous then even the europeans. The cruelest forms of torture and methods of execution were thought up and implemented by the decendants of Ishmael.
Yes, I have been abroad, probably moreso than most people.
What has that to do with anything?
It still doesn't change the fact that euros are politically retarded and that Arabs are barbarians.
does this mean all? No certainly not. But enough for me to condemn the entire culture? Yes absolutely so. This is my opinion.
What about the Arabs in America you ask. Those that will be born here or those mix with us will be fine. The true greatness about our way is the concept of e pluribus unum. they will assimilate and our great people, our generous people and our superior moral and political system will make Americans of them all. They will be Americans first and muslims second. Just like I am American first. Just like my Jewish friends are Americans first. Just like my B'Hai friends are Americans first. and lastly just like my Muslim friends are Americans first. Religion will become a tolerated cultural aspect of the person and they are liked or disliked for who they are and not because of where they are from.
But you are too silly to understand this.
I have a cure for you. come visit America. If one of our gun nuts doesn't kill you you will return to europe a changed woman.
Lada's a chick? is she hot?:cool:
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Na hot chicks don't hold world views, probably an old ugly matronly looking specimen with atrophied kegels.
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
Lada's a chick? is she hot?:cool:
Im still only dreaming about beeing SHE :cool:
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The Czech Republic. Easily the best crafted AK 47s. better craftsmanship the mongrel Soviets ever produced. The Czech AK47 had a very nice fit and finish which was immediately noticable when compared to other countrie's production.
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Originally posted by storch
Na hot chicks don't hold world views, probably an old ugly matronly looking specimen with atrophied kegels.
sure in US doesnt.... but in other parts of the world.... chmmm hot chicks do :D
(http://stat.el-cha.cz/ould2.JPG)
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Originally posted by storch
You're right, brain fart. The Czech Republic. Easily the best crafted AK 47s. better craftsmanship the mongrel Soviets ever produced. The Czech AK47 had a very nice fit and finish which was immediately noticable when compared to other countrie's production.
Yup story was like this.
We were producing very good weapons, guns before WW2. So when we got crap from CCCP after WW2, our weapon masters look at it and they found it to be very sh|ty.
So mission were: Produce weapon with absolutly same appearence, coz we dont want p|ssed off great CCCP, but with a diferent parameters.
Thing you call czech Ak-47 we named Vzor-58 (builded in 1958).
Appearence is almost the same, but inside its absolutly diferent.
So we got good gun and CCCP were not angry :D
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Storch, get rid of the personal attacks out of those posts. Last warning.
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Originally posted by lada
sure in US doesnt.... but in other parts of the world.... chmmm hot chicks do :D
(http://stat.el-cha.cz/ould2.JPG)
that u in the pic lada?
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neg.
its friend of mine ;)
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she's kinda hot ...she single? how does she feel about Texans?
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nice looking friend lada
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Originally posted by storch
nice looking friend lada
hey hey hey! dont be trying to horn in on my action BUB!! LOL
still wondering on lada's gender
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
she's kinda hot ...she single? how does she feel about Texans?
she is sooo sweeet.... with those black eyes... chmmm i were about to get mad :)
she will hopefully come over here in 2 months or so
She like Europe, Canada, Australia,
The only one thing she likes about US is some Technical university.
Coz she is proper programmer dweeb. She sometimes write drivers for special devices in assembler 8086.
No she fallen in love with C++ .... ummm
she is one of most best coders i ever meet.
And that was BIGGEST reason why i invited her over here after i spent some time at their house :)
thanks storch
im that guy 1.5m left of her :D
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
still wondering on lada's gender
Doctor usualy say....
" Hallo my most favourit hermaphrodit"
... donno what does he mean :cool:
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be glad to skuzzy, which ones do want me to censor?
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Originally posted by lada
Doctor usualy say....
" Hallo my most favourit hermaphrodit"
... donno what does he mean :cool:
LOL lada that's funny
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Thats why we are here :)
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tell her to be careful willdcrd may want to poke her in the eye.
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Nona problema he can try it, im ready :D
(http://www.army.lt/guns/biglt/vz58.jpg)
(storch this is gun we spoke about
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wow it just blew my mind (small explosion) isn't the Lada the soviet licensed built Fiat 850? I was thinking where have I heard that name before and it just came to me. Yes Lada that's it and even the photo shows the great quality of the workmanship compared to other eastern block countries. And on the Par of anything produced anywhere. The CZ knock off of the Hi Power ( forgot the designation) is as good or better than any the Belgiques produced also. Are you Slovakian Lada?
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Originally posted by storch
tell her to be careful willdcrd may want to poke her in the eye.
That was an accident it was dark ...i dunno got carried away and BAM! BAM! BAM! next thing i here is ow my eye oh jesus my eye!!
but, like i told her "you'll heal up baby....give the king some sugar" and she did, on both counts...........:rofl
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Originally posted by lada
Nona problema he can try it, im ready :D
(http://www.army.lt/guns/biglt/vz58.jpg)
(storch this is gun we spoke about
AK47...when u absolutly, positivly have to kill everyone in the romm!!.....accept no substituts!
:rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by lada
she is sooo sweeet.... with those black eyes... chmmm i were about to get mad :)
she will hopefully come over here in 2 months or so
She like Europe, Canada, Australia,
The only one thing she likes about US is some Technical university.
Coz she is proper programmer dweeb. She sometimes write drivers for special devices in assembler 8086.
No she fallen in love with C++ .... ummm
she is one of most best coders i ever meet.
And that was BIGGEST reason why i invited her over here after i spent some time at their house :)
thanks storch
im that guy 1.5m left of her :D
Well we got some of the best tech schools here in Texas. If she ever comes over here I'll be more than happy to show her around:cool:
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Im not sure if she spoke about texas, realy dont know...
Storch im not slovakian, im proper Czech dweeb, if i can say so
My Grandmother father`s parents were from germany.
Then they messed up with some french.... :D
but now we claim to be czech :D
(hell realy dont know why are local people asking, from whitch part of ME am i :D )
WilldCrd if she will not want me, i will send her to you :D
Anyway i doubt she will be allowed to enter US, coz country of origin. She is in same box as im :)
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Originally posted by lada
My Grandmother father`s parents were from germany.
Then they messed up with some french.... :D
but now we claim to be czech :D
(hell realy dont know why are local people asking, from whitch part of ME am i :D )
LOL you sound as genetically messed up as me.
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Originally posted by lada
Im not sure if she spoke about texas, realy dont know...
Storch im not slovakian, im proper Czech dweeb, if i can say so
My Grandmother father`s parents were from germany.
Then they messed up with some french.... :D
but now we claim to be czech :D
(hell realy dont know why are local people asking, from whitch part of ME am i :D )
WilldCrd if she will not want me, i will send her to you :D
Anyway i doubt she will be allowed to enter US, coz country of origin. She is in same box as im :)
as far as the country of origin crapola i don't agree with that policy really sad.
as far as not wanting ya...don't ever let her see a pic of me then LOL she'll be kicking u to the curb j/k
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As I have said before, and will repeat as necessary, in everyway you judge a culture or society the Arabs are failures. They seem to have been doing quite well up till the time they embraced Islam. After that it was an 'about face' back to the Middle Ages. They are no longer important beyond there possession of great amounts of Oil.
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Hey Otto if you have Islam connected with middle age, you proably never saw islamic country, whitch doesnt have lack of money, did you ?
Shall i post some pictures i made ?
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Think you need to re-read your history books, Otto.
Ravs
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Lada,
More important than their wealth(from oil), what have the countries you talk about contributed to Humanity? What are their accomplishments in Law, Medicine, Science, Engineering, Literature and Philosophy that they have shared with the world? In all the time that they have existed, what have they done to make the World a better place to live?
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LOLOL!!!
Mathematics....the Arabs practically invented it. These numbers: 1,2,3,4 - are called Arabic Numerals!
Astronomy... the Arabs practically invented it.They were predicticting celestial orbits whilst Europeans were struggling with the Black Death and burning witches.
Literature: Have you heard of the 1001 Nights? The Rubia'at of Omar Khyaam? (to name but two great works). The work: Gilgamesh is considered to be the first novel ever written...guess who wrote it? The ancestors of the Arabs.
Architecture and Engineering: Have you seen the buildings built by Suleiman the Great? Do a google.
Philosophy: The biggest library in the Ancient world was in....Alexandria! in Egypt.
I don't even begin to mention the advances they made in medicine, double entry bookkeeping (the foundation of modern trade), art, poetry, military technology,
Otto, you really ought to read more history.
Ravs
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Here, let me make it a little easier for you Otto:
AL-BATTANI
c.855 - 929
Arab Astronomer
Al-Battani's great astronomical work 'De motu stellarum' exercised a great influence on European astronomy. Al-Battani was born in an area which is now in Turkey and lived in Syria, where he carried out astronomical observations. As a mathematician he found more accurate values for the length of the year, for the annual precession of the equinoxes, and for the inclination of the ecliptic. He also improved the calculation for sinus functions.
AL-BIRUNI
973 - 1048
Arab Scholar
Al-Biruni was one of the most learned men of his age who corresponded with the great philosopher Ibn Sina. He spent a large part of his life in Ghazna, Afghanistan. In 1017 he travelled to India. Conversant in Turkish, Persian, Sanskrit, Hebrew and Arabic Al-Biruni became the most important interpreter of Indian science to Islam.
In astronomical works he discussed the theory of the earth's rotation on its axis, in physics he advanced hydrostatic laws and in geography he advanced the visionary view that the Indus valley had once be a sea basin.
ABU KASIM
936 - 1013
Arab Surgeon
Abu Kasim was a physician in Cordoba, Spain, and he is considered the 'Father of Modern Surgery'.
Abu Kasim was the most famous physician of his time and he treated patients from all over Europe. He is best known for several original breakthroughs in surgery, as an inventor of several surgical instruments, and for his famous Medical Encyclopedia. He employed vivisection of animals for his research, and wrote a standard text book on surgery which was translated into Latin and many other European languages.
AL-HASSAN
965 - 1039
Arab Optician
Al-Hassan was born in Basra, Iraq and died in Cairo. He made the first important contribution to optical theory since the time of Ptolemy in the second century A.D.
He made studies about optics, atmosphere, physics and astronomy, and he was the first to recognize the optical nerve in the human eye.
AL-KARISMI
c.778 - c.850
Arab Mathematician
Al-Karismi, or Al-Khwarizmi, was born in central Asia. He lived most of his life in Baghdad during the first golden age of Islamic science. He developed the decimal system by using the Indian notion of Zero, and he invented the term 'algebra'. The term 'algorism' derives from the title of his book on Hindu-Arabic numerals. In another book he presented more than 800 examples of calculation of integration and equation. His works were instrumental in introducing the subjects of algebra and Hindu numerals into European mathematics.
AL-RASI
c.864 - 930
Arab Physician
Al-Rasi, born near modern Tehran, was the greatest physician of Islam and the Medieval Ages, and was the undisputable authority on medicine up to Seventeenth century. His original work on smallpox, measles and infectious diseases is still cited in modern textbooks.
Al-Rasi was the first person to introduce the use of alcohol (Arabic Al-Kuhl) for medical purposes. He was also an expert surgeon and was the first to use opium for anaesthesia. As a director of a hospital he wrote the most complete Arabic medicinal encyclopaedia. Al-Rasi was also known as a philosopher and he developed the atomic theory of the Greek philopher Democritus.
AL-KINDI
c.789 - c.873
Arab Naturalist
Al-Kindi was born of noble Arabic descent and flourished in Iraq. He is considered one of the twelve greatest minds of the Middle Ages. Al-Kindi was the first genuine philosopher to write in Arabic. He was a universal scholar who wrote over 200 texts about mathematics, astronomy, optics, medicine, music and psychology. In addition he worked as a chemist, optician, and music theorist.
Writing of chemistry, Al-Kindi argued that base metals cannot be converted to precious metals. He also researched on the scientific aspects of music. He stated that the various notes that combine to produce harmony have a specific pitch, and he stated that when a sound is produced it generates waves in the air. He made important contributions to the Arabic system of numerals. His original work provided the foundation for modern arithmetic.
Omar Al-Khayyam, a mathematician, astronomer, and philosopher from Persia, worked at the court of the turkish Seljuk Sultan. Based on his astronomical observations Al-Khayyam created the most exact calendar up to that time. He developed a method for the solution of equations based on geometry and he made major contributions in Mathematics, particularly in Algebra.
In the West, he is best known for his poetic work 'Rubaiyat' which was translated by Edward Fitzgerald in 1859. His themes involved complex mystical and philosophical thoughts. Although a pious Muslim, in his later life he developed a free-thinking philosophy.
IBN SINA
980 - 1037
Persian Scientist
Ibn Sina was the most famous of the philosopher - scientists of Islam.
Ibn Sina, or Avicenna, was born in Bukhara then a leading city in Persia. His youth was spent in the company of the most learned men of his time and he became accomplished in all the sciences and arts. Ibn Sina collected in over 100 books the entire scientific knowledege of his time and is called the "Prince of Science". He spent the last years of his life in Hamadan, where he composed the 'Canon of Medicine', which is among the most famous books in the history of medicine.
Suleiman the Magnificent
1494-1566
Suleyman in his time was regarded as the most significant ruler in the world, by both Muslims and Europeans. His military empire expanded greatly both to the east and west, and he threatened to overrun the heart of Europe itself. In Constantinople, he embarked on vast cultural and architectural projects. Istanbul in the middle of the sixteenth century was architecturally the most energetic and innovative city in the world. While he was a brilliant military strategist and canny politician, he was also a cultivator of the arts. Suleyman's poetry is among the best poetry in Islam, and he sponsored an army of artists, religious thinkers, and philosophers that outshone the most educated courts of Europe.
I think that's more than a few contributions to the sum total of human knowledge....don't you?
Ravs
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Ravelles,
This is 2004, not 1004. And, as I said, before Islam they were 'Above Average'. Yes, it is possible that some time in our future Islam may have a Reformation and Enlightment that will get them out of the Middle Ages and have them join the Modern World, but I don't see it anytime soon.
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Early on they were amazing as Ravs points out.
But since then........
Interesting article:
Islam, once at forefront of science, fell by wayside (http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/04102/299292.stm)
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Thanks for link Toad, interesting reading.
I hope you will not stuck with same Religion BS like some tards do.
here is some prove that islamic countries do not ban education
http://www.azad.ac.ir/
http://www1.tums.ac.ir/research/index.htm
http://www.fos.ut.ac.ir/
http://khorshid.ece.ut.ac.ir/
this link is quite LOL
http://www.iust.ac.ir/IUSTEntry/
Progress in ME is not result of Islam but its result of our attitude toward them. In country, where president have head on right place things working a bit diferent, as you can see.
Btw.: in NASA work about 50 iranian, whitch has been educated in Iran, sure they probably continue with their study in US as well.
Do not stick to countries destroyed by wars if we speak about something what is far beyond them.
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Hi Otto...I was responding to these posts:
More important than their wealth(from oil), what have the countries you talk about contributed to Humanity? What are their accomplishments in Law, Medicine, Science, Engineering, Literature and Philosophy that they have shared with the world? In all the time that they have existed, what have they done to make the World a better place to live?
As I have said before, and will repeat as necessary, in everyway you judge a culture or society the Arabs are failures. They seem to have been doing quite well up till the time they embraced Islam. After that it was an 'about face' back to the Middle Ages. They are no longer important beyond there possession of great amounts of Oil.
Islam, in 700 AD to 1500 AD was in many ways more tolerant religion that Christianity and was more 'science' friendly.
But I agree with you and Toad (interesting article, thanks Toad) that somewhere down the line the Arabs dropped the scientific baton, and I agree; in today's world they do not make a significant contribution in terms of advancement of science or civics. Then again, I suppose we could say the same of the Greeks, the Romans (Italians) and the Indians.
Great cultures rise and fall, and from the point of view of knowledge, the ones that follow stand on the shoulders of the thinkers of the ones that have passed and develop their ideas.
'tis the way of things.
Ravs