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General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Grits on May 15, 2004, 12:09:37 AM

Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Grits on May 15, 2004, 12:09:37 AM: Title says it all. As long as they have lazer guns and 3 slaved planes worth of guns they dont need external views.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: PropNut on May 15, 2004, 01:16:03 AM: Well I tried it tonight in a flock of Lancs. I had at one time 6 fighters on me and only able to check with one gun at a time without spending all your time jumping around. In short it sucks!! it causes your SA to lag about a second which is just enough to make you easy prey ....add short con ranges and 262s zooming up from under your Lanc at 600+ and your "dead meat". As for the laser guns has Hitech ever addressed this? Is it in fact true? Or is it just dead men whining ? Is the Gun scatter tighter than say a P51 or P47 50cal? Also your a sitting duck in a goon. you cant even tell if a friend or foe is the engine sound on your 6 no chance of avoiding a diving fast fighter while in your goon. I guess we need Otto gunning in the buffs to even make it half way realistic. Im sure if I flew fighters 90% of the time I would love the new view setup ... Im just curious who originated this idea anyway? ..... I'll give ya odds that no buff pilots came up with this fantastic idea! its lame and its wrong.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: TrueKill on May 15, 2004, 02:24:03 AM: i agree with propnut i was in a AR234 today and 1 of my squadies had to tell me there was a p38 on my 6 (like i could so anything about it) so i lokked back and paged up so i could see the top of what said P38 so i start sprayin those 20mms in every possable direction then a tiff came and joined the massicure to make a long story short all three of my 234s got shot down with not one enemy plane limping back to base. eather take the ar234 out of the setup or turn the views on so we can TRY to defend ourselfs.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: B17Skull12 on May 15, 2004, 02:28:38 AM: i hate to say it but the 234 to survive needs f3 view mode.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: TrueKill on May 15, 2004, 02:32:55 AM: yea thats what i say at least give us the f3 mode
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Oleg on May 15, 2004, 02:40:01 AM: Hey, Grits!
How often "you" fly in buffs and how many kills you score to decide what "they" need and what dont?

Lets me check... Ok, here is it.

CT TOD 23(Jan 04) 24(Feb) 25(March) 26(Apr) 27(May)
sorties 17 54 30 42 15
killed 11 41 16 24 11
landed 5 11 12 13 3
kills 4 7 3 4 0

Hm... Dont looks you are very successful, right?

What about "laserguns"... Its just whine and no more. 12mm are powerfull here but they all quite same.

btw, if you dont like or cannt to attack buffs nobody force you to do that.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Löwe on May 15, 2004, 08:20:46 AM: Quote
Originally posted by PropNut
I'll give ya odds that no buff pilots came up with this fantastic idea! its lame and its wrong.

Yeah it's just as lame as the out of aircraft god view, and one guy being able to fire the guns on three aircraft at once.:rofl
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Grits on May 15, 2004, 09:52:31 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Oleg
Hey, Grits!
How often "you" fly in buffs and how many kills you score to decide what "they" need and what dont?
Lets me check... Ok, here is it.
Hm... Dont looks you are very successful, right?

Words of wisdom from a decktrolling buff-tard.

Using my buff stats in this argument is like buying a hooker and then claiming women cant resist you.

Ask someone the last time they saw me decktrolling in a buff. I furball Val's and Stukas after tards like you kill the FH at a base. Given the circumstances I usually fly buffs, the fact that I dont die EVERY buff sortie I fly proves my infinite superiority to you.

Your worse than a decktrolling buff-tard, your a LAGGY decktrolling buff-tard.

Oh yeah, I stand by my statement, as long as buffs have 3 planes worth of slaved guns they dont need external views.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: storch on May 15, 2004, 11:26:41 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Grits
Words of wisdom from a decktrolling buff-tard.

Using my buff stats in this argument is like buying a hooker and then claiming women cant resist you.

ROFLMFAO. I wonder what would that be spelled like in cyrillic?

Storch strolls into the O'Club and is alarmed, grits has just finished his phaggity drink and hurled his glass at the unsuspecting Oleg who is busy tallying up his decktroll kills. The glass is in mid air. Storch grabs a handful of peanuts from the bar.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Oleg on May 15, 2004, 11:57:03 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Grits
Words of wisdom from a decktrolling buff-tard.

lol
You almost never fly in level bombers and pretend to judge what they need to have? Lame way.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Slash27 on May 16, 2004, 11:34:18 PM: Get a better connection.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Eagle327 on May 17, 2004, 12:26:41 AM: You're way off the mark, Grits.

I find external views extremely useful as an early warning system, since we don't get bandit reports from all the gunner positions.

There's an alternate to F3 also:

In B17s and B26s press the 2 key then the F3 key, then zoom all the way out.
You can bend your joystick and look up, down and all around without disturbing your heading or climb settings.

If a dot "bogy" becomes a "bandit" slew your aircraft between your eyeballs and the Bandit, jump to the proper gunner position and he's automatically lined up in your gunner sights.

What you have done here, in affect, is gone outside via a gunner position.

This is very useful when under threat from 262s and 163s or any multiple threats.

Good luck,
Eagle, Group XO
327th Steel Talons
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: storch on May 17, 2004, 06:32:20 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Eagle327
In B17s and B26s press the 2 key then the F3 key, then zoom all the way out.
You can bend your joystick and look up, down and all around without disturbing your heading or climb settings.

If a dot "bogy" becomes a "bandit" slew your aircraft between your eyeballs and the Bandit, jump to the proper gunner position and he's automatically lined up in your gunner sights.

Could there be a better case for permanent removal of the external view?
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Eagle327 on May 17, 2004, 10:48:04 AM: Not really, Storch......

I feel the external Buff views partially make up for no Bandit reports from all the gunner positions, as we would have if all gunner positions were manned, as in real life and as had in AWIII.

This thread is beginning to sound like "sour grapes" from fighter pilots pissed at being killed when attacking Buffs.

We must acknowledge that the Buffs fly in AH at a profound disadvantage because we cannot load up all gunner positions to yield a "Death Star" as in AWIII.

Eagle
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: keyapaha on May 17, 2004, 11:01:23 AM: No need to have an external view

I flew thousands of bomber sorties with out it just run a gun position check ever so often you'll be fine.To me the hardest part was finding your group once a gun battle broke out.

The problem with the Ar234 is we have no telescopic rear sight for the cannons, therefore it should not even be in service till this is rectified.

But really all you have to check is your 6 hardly no one attacks from anywhere different.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: DktrEvil on May 17, 2004, 01:18:25 PM: External views are ALWAYS available ............................. ........................in th MA.

We need to have alternative settings in other arenas, otherwise they are just slightly modified MA's. At present, the main differences between the MA and CT are an expanded planeset and maps.

Thusly, any flyboy from the MA can easily transfer to the CT without any special skill adjustments other than reading how many troops can take a base or other minor changes in the weeks setup.

I am one who believes we need a Historical Arena or some other arena where the Radar/Views and such are set to at least semi-realistic levels. This would require each pilot adjust his habits to the new settings in order to survive, especially if they happened to "drop" in from MA.

My past experience with the "other" flight sim shows that the Arena with the more realistic settings attracted more veteran pilots and those looking to improve their piloting skills by flying in more realistic conditions.

Granted the numbers of players were smaller (but they are that way now in the CT) but the quality of play was better. More emphasis on teamwork, pilot skill, strategy and tactics. It wasn't as simple as learning to fly a different airplane or learn a new map. You had to have good piloting and SA skills to stay alive. There was a lot more "bouncing" going on and you either learned quick or died.

For those that want external views you have the MA, for the rest we have nowhere to go.

Regards
(http://users.colfax.com/cfb/eguy2.gif)
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: DktrEvil on May 17, 2004, 02:22:59 PM: Oh by the way, if you still want to come to the CT and bomb but feel disadvantaged without the external view, then make sure you are bombing from altitiudes over 10,000 feet and you should be fine.

However, this won't work if your secondary motive is to go "fighter trolling" in your 'ack wagons'.

Regards
(http://users.colfax.com/cfb/eguy2.gif)
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: PropNut on May 17, 2004, 10:13:32 PM: It occured to me last night while cruising around in a B17 that "gun view only settings " could be more immersive in the right situation and I have no problem with no F3 view... It also occured to me that all that is really needed (since this is all being done in the name of realisim) is to have automated 6 calls for all bombers and the C47. As in real life ....using the B17 as an example, you had 10 guys panning the sky from their positions, it was rare a con could just sneak-up on a loaded B17. We need auto callouts like "con high 6" or "Ball gunner.... low con 2 oclock" these calls should come at at least 3.0 out (even though in reality they were spotted much further out) they should also only make the calls if the cons a visable through the normal windows,turrets etc. this is the only way we can even get close to realisim in AH without the F3 view. The only people that would think otherwise just want "blind buffs" in the CT I think that When something like this becomes available I would be the first to say retire the old F3 view. But untill then let F3 do the job it was intended for "to allow the pilot to view the airspace around the Buff"
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: storch on May 18, 2004, 02:21:41 AM: Quote
Originally posted by PropNut
It occured to me last night while cruising around in a B17 that "gun view only settings " could be more immersive in the right situation and I have no problem with no F3 view... It also occured to me that all that is really needed (since this is all being done in the name of realisim) is to have automated 6 calls for all bombers and the C47. As in real life ....using the B17 as an example, you had 10 guys panning the sky from their positions, it was rare a con could just sneak-up on a loaded B17. We need auto callouts like "con high 6" or "Ball gunner.... low con 2 oclock" these calls should come at at least 3.0 out (even though in reality they were spotted much further out) they should also only make the calls if the cons a visable through the normal windows,turrets etc. this is the only way we can even get close to realisim in AH without the F3 view. The only people that would think otherwise just want "blind buffs" in the CT I think that When something like this becomes available I would be the first to say retire the old F3 view. But untill then let F3 do the job it was intended for "to allow the pilot to view the airspace around the Buff"

Then all you would need is to have all your guns rattle and vibrate and realistic bullet drop on those .50s
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Slash27 on May 18, 2004, 06:33:18 AM: And a cappacino machine.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: Grits on May 18, 2004, 11:13:16 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Slash27
And a cappacino machine.

Buffs already have cappacino machines, but they are not slaved to Otto-Majik, each one must actually be manned by a player. After all, they didnt have Mr Coffee in RL did they? I guess you could add that as a post WWII "What if".
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: PropNut on May 18, 2004, 08:02:06 PM: Quote
And a cappacino machine

Not a bad Idea but then we need "otto" to gun while we sip our cappacino :rofl
Quote
Then all you would need is to have all your guns rattle and vibrate and realistic bullet drop on those .50s
now thats something ive heard alot but have never seen any proof. Storch are you telling me that in fact the drop on the buff guns are not realistic? I know I always have to compensate for drop ...please tell us where we can find all the data that supports this claim. If its wrong I say fix it. I would say the drop in the 50 cals look like maybe 10 feet at 1.2 (not measured just a guess)... Ive asked this before but no one ever has a real answer. Maybe if Hitech or Pyro ever scan this message one will answer. It wont matter to me I'll just aim a tad higher:D
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: storch on May 18, 2004, 08:46:43 PM: 1.2k= 4700 ft. +- (is my math right?) what possible damage could 750gr do at that distance? Could you possibly be able to aim a weapon to hit enough times at those ranges given the conditions in which those men had to fight?

It's a game and it's all good but honestly if the case where as it is represented in this game there would never have been the need to develope the P51.

That's all I'm saying. No need to get defensive, hell it's always a pleasure to be shot down by you at 1500 yards.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: PropNut on May 19, 2004, 12:00:28 AM: Defensive??? who's defensive not me thats for sure its a game and hardly worth any rise in blood pressure ...here have a cup of cappacino bro :) I did a quick search around and got a range of info on the 50 cal ammo that was typically used in the guns on most aircraft .. It seems that 50 cal ammo typically can deliver between 2500 and 4000 ft lbs of energy at 1000 yards 3,000 feet and would have a drop at 3000 feet averaging 120-140 inches... so it would seem that the drop is about right (with just using averaging) I dont think its off alot though. as far as killing you at 1500 yards Ive never done that. I usually am aligned and ready to fire at 1.2 but with the close rate of 50 - 100 yards per second I usually dont fire untill 1K thats the start within 2 seconds the plane flying up my 6 is at about 800 and has soaked-up 2 sec worth of 50 cal ammo from 12 guns that should blow the wing off of just about anything. Another thing to consider is that the Buffs tail gun is firing into a negitive wind of about 300 mph while a diving fighter would be firing into a 500+ headwind (now im not sure how this is actually modeled in AH) this should increase the range of the rear firing guns considerably and also spread out the drop over a longer distance. And sometthing that hasnt been modeled in AH is the typical Buffeting and turbulence
that was present in real life. But on the same subject the fighter approaching the 6 of a bomber isnt having to fight the wake of a bomber or group . So untill we all get less than stable platforms to shoot from i guess this is it.
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: DktrEvil on May 19, 2004, 11:24:33 AM: Don't forget the wind resistance on the side guns. This was in place in the "other" sim I used to fly.

Regards
(http://users.colfax.com/cfb/eguy2.gif)
Title: Buffs dont need external views
Post by: storch on May 19, 2004, 01:13:52 PM: Well it's a pleasure to be shot down by you at any range :)