Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: StabbyTheIcePic on May 15, 2004, 07:27:03 PM
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=4&u=/nm/20040515/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_pentagon_dc_5
He may not have abused the prisoners himself, but he approved the methods that led to it.
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nope.
If rummy resigns its because he is the guy in charge.
When some little elfish freak of an imp from WV and her minion of sadistic perverts from the reserves and some greater than GAWD intell people got horny its not rummies fault and its not the fault of his dicta of persuasion either.
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You must be very naive to think that the top man has personal knowledge of everything those under him do on a daily basis. There is no purpose to be solved by his resignation other than to hinder the war effort. :rolleyes:
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What a stupid POS aticle that is. Naturally they want him to step down. Someone has to take the hit. And none of the other Aholes in office want to get mud on them. And most of all it couldnt have been due to the incompitent full of emotion soldiers that were involved. Ok wait a minute, I am sorry I forgot, he implemented the training of soldiers on how to strip down POWs and tie a leash to them while dry humping the pile of POWs. What that select group of idiots did was on their own free will. No one held a gun to their heads, and I highly doubt they were acting under orders of the US Govt let alone Rumsfeld...
Do you really think for one minute that this one man knows every single detail of what is going on not only in this country but through out the entire world?! Common man... Most of what we know is due to a chain of intel. He couldnt have known, and didnt know this was going on when it was. Its due to fools like the one that wrote that article that we are where we are now. Dam the media... Bunch of bias hypocritical Aholes.
I have no sympathy for them. These POWs. What our troops did was wrong and there is no denying that fact. But I'll be damned if Im going to sit here and sulk for them. They are where they are because they chose to follow an animal and kill for him.
Now, after its out in the open we make enemies out of people on our own soil who we voted into office and whome chose to fight for our country, the United States of America, and most of all for a natural born right every human is entitled to. Freedom.
A sad state of affairs the human race is in right now. And it looks like it will only get worse before it ever begins to get better.
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Dudes, it's The New Yorker magazine. That's where Dick Cavett gets his jokes.
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Hmm wonder about this.
Democrats calling for Donald Rumsfeld's resignation invoke the principle of ministerial responsibility: a Cabinet secretary must take ultimate responsibility for what happens on his watch. Interesting idea. Where was it in 1993 when the attorney general of the United States ordered the attack on the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, which ended in the deaths of 76 people?
Janet Reno went to Capitol Hill and said, "It was my decision, and I take responsibility." This was met with approving swoons and applause. Was she made to resign? No. And remember: This was over an action that did not just happen on her watch but that she ordered -- an action that resulted in the deaths of, among others, more than 20 children.
I'ts a damn good thing no one was abused there.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25769-2004May13.html
Sorry you'll have to register for the whole thing.
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Guys, everytime Rumsfeld has sneezed wrong, they've asked for his resignation.
God help us if he farts in public.
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at the airshow we were talkin about starting our own write in group that will vote for rumsfeld:) .
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The rules governing the secret operation were "grab whom you must. Do what you want," the unidentified former intelligence official told the New Yorker.
Rumsfeld left the details of the interrogations to Cambone, the article quoted a Pentagon consultant as saying.
"This is Cambone's deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program," said the Pentagon consultant in the article.
IF (and thats a damn big 'IF') the allegations in this article are true then a resignation wouldn't be enough.
it's no secret that I'm not a Rumsfeld fan. I'd love to see him out of office even more than I'd like to see Bush gone. I've tried to give the benefit of the doubt to him and Bush when this story broke, and still don't think theres enough evidence for anybody to be calling for resignations (yet), but every day it looks a bit worse for Rumsfeld.
if it comes out as fact that he gave free-reign, to do "whatever you want" in interrogations, then he should be looking at some serious prison time.
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I have no sympathy for them. These POWs. What our troops did was wrong and there is no denying that fact. But I'll be damned if Im going to sit here and sulk for them. They are where they are because they chose to follow an animal and kill for him.
Unfortunately Morph, 70-90% of the people rounded up were wrongly arrested and released after the abuse was used to 'soften them up' before interrogation.
Up to 90% were arbitrarily detained and that is the greater problem since these thousands of wrongly arrested and imprisoned people will forever hate the U.S. for the treatment they received and will pass on their hatred to everyone they know.
I am absolutely certain that if every male in your family were detained without cause and subjected to the same abuse, you would forever hate those who did it to you. Especially if those doing it were your local police who you thought were there to protect you.
I think the recently published caricature of Rumsfeld gives cause to consider his performance.
On WMD, he was wrong.
On troops requirements, he was wrong.
On post-invasion occupation planning, he was wrong.
On cost, he was wrong.
On setting the proper command atmosphere, he was wrong.
I fail to see how this warrants a 'superb' job performance evaluation by his boss.
Others have characterized my political tendency to be just slightly right of Atilla the Hun, and I think Rumsfeld should be fired.
Henry Kissinger, who can hardly be called a liberal, long ago characterized Donald Rumsfeld as a scary person. He said that Rumsfeld was a person totally without a conscience and conscience is what makes people take the high road and the long view.
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Originally posted by Yeager
When some little elfish freak of an imp from WV and her minion of sadistic perverts from the reserves and some greater than GAWD intell people got horny its not rummies fault and its not the fault of his dicta of persuasion either.
okok I might need a translator for this bit....
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Im taking up a collection for a one way ticket for stabbytheicepick to go to the peoples republic of europe care to donate?
:aok
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txmx - I am confused by your sig. I thought you were Jewish...?
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Im taking up a collection for a one way ticket for stabbytheicepick to go to the peoples republic of europe care to donate?
at this point in the game it'd be cheaper to fly out those who are in support of the way our country's been headed in the last 3 years. they could take Bush, Rumsfeld, and their fluff'n patriot act with them.
we could probably just charge the cost to the rest of the deficit they've created too(it'd hardly be noticed when added to that tab), though I doubt you could talk them into taking responsibility for their actions and taking that deficit with them.
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Again simpletons. There is no scandle here. As soon as this was reported to the proper people an investigation was started. Currently their are SIX seperate investigations currently taking place. The only reason pople want rumsfeld to resign is cause they dont care how much they hurt the country or step on toes they want Bush gon. This is political plain and simple.
Funniest part is Rumsfeld has a 70% aproval rating. Good luck getting a resignation.
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ummm guys, ask skuzzy to ask his son what goes on in our own SERE school during the POW training portion.
I remember being naked and having a hood on my head....and shock, being thrown around and smacked around to.
I'm not concerned about that stuff at all, what I am concerned with are the allegations of rape and murder. Thats the real issue.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Again simpletons. There is no scandle here. As soon as this was reported to the proper people an investigation was started. Currently their are SIX seperate investigations currently taking place. The only reason pople want rumsfeld to resign is cause they dont care how much they hurt the country or step on toes they want Bush gon. This is political plain and simple.
Funniest part is Rumsfeld has a 70% aproval rating. Good luck getting a resignation.
quote:
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The rules governing the secret operation were "grab whom you must. Do what you want," the unidentified former intelligence official told the New Yorker.
Rumsfeld left the details of the interrogations to Cambone, the article quoted a Pentagon consultant as saying.
"This is Cambone's deal, but Rumsfeld and Myers approved the program," said the Pentagon consultant in the article.
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I haven't seen any credible evidence of a coverup, but there damn sure is a scandle.
and if the alegations in the Newyorker are true, I'd say Rumsfleds involvement was criminal.
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Rumsfeld has already staed he will not be resigning
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I see the media creating more news than they are reporting now a days.
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Originally posted by beet1e
txmx - I am confused by your sig. I thought you were Jewish...?
My birth parent where Jewish.
I am adopted.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I see the media creating more news than they are reporting now a days.
Situation normal. That is the standard MO for them.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
at this point in the game it'd be cheaper to fly out those who are in support of the way our country's been headed in the last 3 years. they could take Bush, Rumsfeld, and their fluff'n patriot act with them.
we could probably just charge the cost to the rest of the deficit they've created too(it'd hardly be noticed when added to that tab), though I doubt you could talk them into taking responsibility for their actions and taking that deficit with them.
Listen we'll take Stabby but there's no way we're taking the motley crew unless of course we get to try them as war criminals in the Hague...
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I see the media creating more news than they are reporting now a days.
Yea sure, they are just making **** up out of thin air. Well i guess if you watch fox news you are used to that so nm.
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With Gitmo and the Iraq prisons Rumsfeild and group have used lawyers to find loop holes and ways to get around the Geneva convention. When you have disdain and contempt at the very top you can be sure, in this case, that a Gestapo like attitude such as that will "trickle down" to the lowest man on the totem pole.
(added later: http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact )
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Why would they have to get "around" geneva conventions rules. These prisoners in Iraq are criminals.....NOT pows. They have very few protected rights under the geneva acord.
Stabby now you're just making watermelon up cause I never said that. I'm not referring to the media on just Iraq but on all issues. They create the story by creating a "scandle" out of it.
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"criminals"
"terrorist"
"WMD"
"rights abuse"
"tyrant"
"Axis of Evil"
"Mission accomplished"
"They create the story by creating a "scandle" out of it."
Pitch in folks . What other overused McCarthieisms are there listed on the standard issue Bush Jugend "retort and rebuttal" party card?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Why would they have to get "around" geneva conventions rules. These prisoners in Iraq are criminals.....NOT pows. They have very few protected rights under the geneva acord.
Blindly behaving this way you legitimate what nazis and fascists did to partisans in France, Italy and Yugoslavia during WW2.
Since the pics of tortures went on the net, *hundreds* of Abu Graib prisoners are being released more or *less* officially. Did your MP battalion suddenly discover that they were innocent iraqi citizens/soldiers? C'mon ... :rolleyes:
You guys are the only still beleiving that those thousands of armed iraqi's are only terrorists.
Go and invade Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Lybia and Sudan (they train and support terrorists as well, in case you didnt know) ... then you'll discover hundred thousands terrorists there as well ... :rofl
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Gunslinger is correct.
The Geneva Convention is VERY specific about who is covered under its provisions (It covers Regular military personnel and non combatants). And most of the people mentioned are not covered.
Not that I condone prisoner abuse, or human rights abuses in general.
But just about all of the prisoners from Afghanistan, and most of the prisoners from Iraq not captured during the initial fighting are not covered by the Geneva convention. Period.
If fact, I believe that under the Geneva convention, "guerillas", partisans, or "irregular fighters" can be summarily executed.
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Based on Rumsfield & crews definitions of who they are ("illegal combatant") is part of the problem IMO.
When does an enemy become "irregular?" When they do not fight like nor have a "regular" army ala the US or UK?
When do they become a guerrilla/partisan? After their military and standing government have surrendered? What if no one surrendered?
If the Geneva convention is so clear cut as to who is protected and who is not then the efforts to find loop holes and interpretations to skirt around the convention verbiage?
Again...
http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040524fa_fact
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When does an enemy become "irregular?" When they do not fight like nor have a "regular" army ala the US or UK?
When do they become a guerrilla/partisan? After their military and standing government have surrendered? What if no one surrendered?
Basically yes. You must be in uniform, and in the service of a recognised countries military arm.
So. If you are not in uniform. If your government does not officially exist (ie "revolutionary groups"), or your government has surrendured or ceased too exist. The Geneva convention does not apply to my knowledge.
At least thats the gist of what I was taught in the military.
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Verm,
are saying that if those armed iraqis are partisans you own the right to treat them the way you do in Guantanamo and Iraq? Without trials and no human rights?
The point is that you cannot accept the idea that the majority of Iraqis dont want any invader in their country (no wonder).
Hence you consider them all terrorists or, in the best case, partisans. In any case without any human right.
Scary, really scary. It reminds me Algeria, Vietnam, former Yugoslavia and Cecenia.
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Gatt, don't put words into my mouth. You've known me for a long time, and I hope you know better.
I believe in basic human rights and treating people like human beings.
But thats not the issue. I was pointing out the fact that people on this BBS frequently cry "Thats against the Geneva Convention !!!!". Almost as if it were a quasi-religious symbol.
And they are usually wrong. It may be against a local law. It may be against international law. And it may be against a sense of common deceny and humanity. But the Geneva convention is a very specific law for a specific purpose.
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Got it ... heya Verm! Howdy :)
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So....it's OK to stick stuff up an insurgent's prettythang, beat the watermelon out of them, teach and force them to jerk off? Pose them in dehumanizing positons against their will? regardless of whether or not we have proof they are anything other than non-players?
just making sure I know what to stand for here...
:confused:
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RedTail....have you been to SERE school? While no jerking off was present, naked and hooded happens. Up all night standing naked with children crying pumped through speakers....this is nothing new, its done in training for God's sake.
Be more worried about the murders and rapes, thats the problem
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Originally posted by Dnil
RedTail....have you been to SERE school? While no jerking off was present, naked and hooded happens. Up all night standing naked with children crying pumped through speakers....this is nothing new, its done in training for God's sake.
Be more worried about the murders and rapes, thats the problem
I went to a Public college, does that count? Sure sounds close enough.
What you are describing is one thing, what was going on at Abu, which by all accounts was the Taj Mahal compared to the smaller prisons, is a whole different story, and I know we both agree on that.
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you are going off photos of how atrocious this is.....tactics like these are used to get info, everyone uses them....we use them.
They break you down, they have to, otherwise you dont talk. Even then talking is not a certainity. I got thrown around in training and you know what it was pretty wimpy...big gunther tossing me around was weak. BUT after all the sensory deprevation and keeping me up all night it felt MUCH worse then it actually was.
Do i think what happened was over the top, probably, I thought the training was over the top I went through. But I also know it looks much worse then it actually is. Rape and murder are never acceptable, and those guys should hang.
Edited out a snippy comment.