Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: vorticon on May 19, 2004, 01:53:49 PM
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" helicopter kills dozens in Iraqi wedding party, say reports
Last Updated Wed, 19 May 2004 14:47:05
BAGHDAD - Iraqi officials claim more than 40 people, including children, were killed when a U.S helicopter fired on a wedding party in western Iraq early Wednesday morning.
Iraqis bury wedding guests
The U.S. military said it could not confirm the attack and were investigating the incident.
"I cannot comment on this because we have not received any reports from our units that this has happened nor that any were involved in such a tragedy," Lt.-Col. Dan Williams, a U.S. military spokesperson, wrote in an e-mail in response to a question from the Associated Press.
Iraqi witnesses said some of the wedding guests were firing into the air in traditional celebratory gunfire.
The attack took place in al-Qaim in the Anbar province, a desert area near the border with Syria and Jordan, a local official said.
Lt.-Col. Ziyad al-Jbouri, deputy police chief of the city of Ramadi, said between 42 and 45 people died in the attack, including 15 children and 10 women.
A hospital official in the area said 45 people were killed.
Al-Arabiya TV said more than 40 people were killed.
In July 2002, Afghan officials said 48 civilians at a wedding party were killed and 117 wounded by a U.S. airstrike in Afghanistan's Uruzgan province.
U.S. military defended the action, saying American planes had come under fire.
"
Written by CBC News Online staff
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I hear rumors of war.......
I would offer condolances but that would just be self gratyfying and disengenuous.
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Shooting into the air in a de-facto war zone is generally not a good idea.
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War zone?
I thought you were there to liberate the Iraqis and they shoot in celebration..
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ok lets see you go at night near a police roadbloack and just blast off a whole clip in "celebration". Comeback and tell us the results :p
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Notice I said "de facto," mainly as a disclaimer since "major combat operations are over"
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http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040519/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack_4
Al-Ani said people at the wedding fired weapons in the air, and that American troops came to investigate and left. However, al-Ani said, helicopters attacked the area at about 3 a.m. Two houses were destroyed, he said.
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More Air National Guard pilots on amphetamines?
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more wedding hating american's?
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Clearly it must have been 2 gay Iraqis getting married..
dude :rofl
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Well If It Is a blunder It Is very sad.
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(edited) I posted a remark that did not belong on this thread and did not add anything positive to it
yes... I agree. If true, it is very sad.
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Vorticon:"more wedding hating American's"
WTH does that means?
Then that makes you a jealous hating American Canadian.
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that was a random comment posted at a random time in a random location...mere chance made it have anything to do with this thread
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Originally posted by txmx
Well If It Is a blunder It Is very sad.
I think its sad if it was deliberate too. If resistance increases in that area would it be justified do you think?
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Justify what? We hit a hide-out for insurgents, not a wedding party as claimed, according to sources.
Even so, it is possible that noncombatants in Iraq get killed(and a darned shame). This is what happens when insurgents and terroists blend in w/ the populous then fire on coalition troops.
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Pentagon says it attacked fighters -- not wedding (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/19/iraq.main/index.html)
No doubt this will go round and round a few times.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
War zone?
I thought you were there to liberate the Iraqis and they shoot in celebration..
Wow, our resident anti-american bastage is back.... missed his ignorant posts.
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Clearly it must have been 2 gay Iraqis getting married..
This one i call really cool satire (more black humor)!
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I heard is was just the Reception. So it dosen't count...
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Originally posted by Mickey1992
More Air National Guard pilots on amphetamines?
u = arnoldhole
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What ever did happen with that case?
Call me from the Kerry school of thought: Pilots shrecked up, but I don't fault 'em.
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Jebus that is bad news. As a parent I hate to see kids get killed like that. The little ones have no idea what is going on, and their death is a tragedy, no matter who was wrong or right.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Also nice to see the usual patrons
And it's good to see those who were so blatantly absent from the Berg threads too!
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Originally posted by Nash
What ever did happen with that case?
Call me from the Kerry school of thought: Pilots shrecked up, but I don't fault 'em.
Kerry's school of thought is to say whatever he feels will cast him in the best possible light, no more or less.
He says the pilots messed up but doesn't fault them? Who does he fault then....? Sounds like classic Kerry to me.
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Nash:
General Carlson’s Decisions in Tarnak Farms Cases (http://www.usembassycanada.gov/content/can_usa/tarnak_farms_061803.pdf)
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I like threads like this. All the cockroaches come crawling out of the sewer waving their deth to amreeka flags and and I can check that my ignore list is up to date.
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I messed up shot a family dead by mistake, Kerry says I messed up but it wasn't my fault so I'm good.
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Nuke - I don't even know if Kerry even commented on this.
I was just making a joke about wishy washy. Or.... about the possibility of actually managing to hold two opposing thoughts in the very same brain.
I think the pilots errored, but I can't really fault 'em, and I don't wanna see them punished.
You'll have to ask Kerry about what he actually thinks of it.
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Toad: Thanks
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I have developed the opinion these last few years that these indigenous peoples from the middle east value individual life at about $3000-5000 american dollars per life whereas peoples emmigrated from the middle east, especially current day europeans, north americans and the like seem to put the value of the average life in the high $millions per life.
Evolution doesnt not take a straight path thats for sure.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I have developed the opinion these last few years that these indigenous peoples from the middle east value individual life at about $3000-5000 american dollars per life whereas peoples emmigrated from the middle east, especially current day europeans, north americans and the like seem to put the value of the average life in the high $millions per life.
Evolution doesnt not take a straight path thats for sure.
Seems to me that yer doing the $/humans evaluating.
I've never heard anyone else put it into those terms. I've now heard you do it.
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***** happens and then you get a hellfire up your prettythang .
Though I dunno it seems that they always have a couple getting wed whenver a a strike like these happens, if it was indeed a wedding I don't think the pilots did it intentionally it was an eff up but then again no matter what it'll be seen as the US did intentionally :(
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Oh no...I dont dare to put a wage on anyones head. Just seems life is real cheap in that part of the world. Dirt cheap.
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Originally posted by Glasses
[B"... I don't think the pilots did it intentionally it was an eff up but then again no matter what it'll be seen as the US did intentionally :( [/B]
Of course.
I don't know what's with all the lamenting over how this is being perceived. It's war, sh! t happens and all that....
No, maybe I lie....
In Afghanistan a wedding party was also hit. It was on the news for maybe 5 minutes.
What's the difference here then? Seems to matter more....
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Originally posted by Yeager
Oh no...I dont dare to put a wage on anyones head. Just seems life is real cheap in that part of the world. Dirt cheap.
In a grand total of two sentences you claim to not assign value to anyone's life and then assign a value to life.
"Just seems life is real cheap in that part of the world"....
"Seems" by who? You maybe? What mag/paper did ya lift that gem off of?
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(sniffle)......I think I see a tear in my eye.........maybe not.
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Originally posted by Yeager
I hear rumors of war.......
I would offer condolances but that would just be self gratyfying and disengenuous.
so start a prayer thread instead. :rolleyes:
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this is all nuts! ok, youre at a wedding... there are better ways of showing your excitement than shooting a weapon. ok, the pilots screwed up, the intel or JSTARS screwed up, the command and control screwed up..... and the iraqis screwed up. since i left iraq the situation heated up over there. there, as we all know, has been street to street fighting in some towns..... so why in the heck would you fire a weapon, at night, to celebrate? so before some you guys here start bashing the military about this matter think for a moment (from some of the replies that i read this may be difficult for some).. what would you do, what would be the first thing that goes through your head when you see tracers zinging by you.... :aok
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so why in the heck would you fire a weapon, at night, to celebrate?
I'm sure you're aware how beautiful sight the flying tracers are in the dark sky.
Anyways looks like that incident is not fully examined yet so it's too early to draw conclusions.
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Originally posted by Staga
I'm sure you're aware how beautiful sight the flying tracers are in the dark sky.
Anyways looks like that incident is not fully examined yet so it's too early to draw conclusions.
my point exactly. everyone is quick to point fingers at the drop of a hat. why dont we just blame the military for everything that happens for say...the next 10 years?? :rofl
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Or just blame the Danish nobody blames them for anything and we should start doing it now I say! :D
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Originally posted by 101ABN
this is all nuts! ok, youre at a wedding... there are better ways of showing your excitement than shooting a weapon.
LOL and now they will teach Iraqi good habits
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To me the most likely situation was:
It was a wedding party. Some or most of the people WERE insurgents and had brought thier kids along to join the festivities. The army sees that there there is a large contigent of bads guys at a suspected safe house and also see that they are firing in the air. Maybe at aircraft, maybe not (I cant belive those morons are firing in the air during these hostilities with thier kids around). So the U.S. sees an oppurtunity to take out a large group of bad guys and takes it.
I don't know what happend but I think that this is most likely.
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Believe me, I wasn't suprised at who didn't participate.
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Indeed. It merely confirms what many of us have understood for a long time.
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this isn't the first time we fired upon ppl firing guns into the air - don't think it will be the last
if they fire ak47's into the air at a wedding, what do they do at the divorce?
somebody ship them a bunch of these ... QUICK!
(http://www.daytonamagic.com/Accessories%20Items2/partypopsetc.jpg)
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Give it a rest everyone....one of the chopper gunners were just trying to save a flock of rare birds that was under intense fire from the wedding guests. Other reports say that it was falling bullets from the wedding guests that caused it all
No need to hammer the amerikans for this one.
Allah!!! :D
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I'm sure it will occur to you as well if you think on it.
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We both know the answer. We both know it's true. No point in starting a flamefest.
Ta.
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Originally posted by mosgood
To me the most likely situation was:
It was a wedding party. Some or most of the people WERE insurgents and had brought thier kids along to join the festivities. The army sees that there there is a large contigent of bads guys at a suspected safe house and also see that they are firing in the air. Maybe at aircraft, maybe not (I cant belive those morons are firing in the air during these hostilities with thier kids around). So the U.S. sees an oppurtunity to take out a large group of bad guys and takes it.
I don't know what happend but I think that this is most likely.
Doesnt surprise me one bit. US soldiers in somalia reported on numerous occasions that Woman carrying and even surrounded by children would fire on US/UN troops. Not saying that's the situation here but it wouldnt surprise me.
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All I have to say is HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Screw 'em all :D
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5013551
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To me it looks like they (US) were trying to keep out future terrorists at the border. Wedding or not they probably came under fire. One side or the other is lieing and I dont think its the US. Just a gut feeling. Again earlier quote....firing weapons in the air in a warzone is not a smart Idea.
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Originally posted by Coolridr
All I have to say is HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
Screw 'em all :D
I'll take it you're a kid and your sig-line has nothing to do with reality ?
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Ditto. From the linked story above...
“How many people go to the middle of the desert 10 miles from the Syrian border to hold a wedding 80 miles from the nearest civilization?” Maj. Gen. James Mattis, commander of the 1st Marine Division, told reporters in Fallujah. “These were more than two dozen military-age males. Let’s not be naive.”
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Probably the guy was having a slow day at the office and closest thing he had to shoot at all week. So he fired.
Seems all to often that we hear of more inocents being killed by US fire whether civilians or coalition forces. My cousin was in the first Gulf War with British forces and they got so tired of being shot at by US forces they resorted to tieing massive orange tarpolines to all their vehicles.
Didn't help the British forces from suffering more casulaties to US fire then they did to Iraqi.
...-Gixer
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I find this amazing:
Asked about witness testimony and footage of children killed or wounded, Mattis said: “I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars. I don’t have to apologize for the conduct of my men.”
Yes, bad things happen. But... Some things are just too much for me. Being at least polite is too difficult because of a fear to lose face?...
Another thought: when "bad things" happen in Chechnya they all start screaming about "evil Russians" and "human rights for Chechen terrorists". OTOH - when this miserable parody of an officer says he refuses even to apoligize - it's all right... What about human rights here? No human - no rights?...
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Boroda
I find this amazing:
Asked about witness testimony and footage of children killed or wounded, Mattis said: “I have not seen the pictures but bad things happen in wars. I don’t have to apologize for the conduct of my men.”
Yes, bad things happen. But... Some things are just too much for me. Being at least polite is too difficult because of a fear to lose face?...
Another thought: when "bad things" happen in Chechnya they all start screaming about "evil Russians" and "human rights for Chechen terrorists". OTOH - when this miserable parody of an officer says he refuses even to apoligize - it's all right... What about human rights here? No human - no rights?...
:rolleyes:
Except when bad things happend in Chechnya its a tiny little bit different...
Please note the dates, 2000 as in the year 2000 and not the year 1944....
BTW Boroda has often touted the precision of soviet artilerry and how its so m uch better than US smart weapons.
I'm guessing they precisely targeted every square inch of that city, a few times over by the looks of it....
So without futher delay, behold Russian humane warfighting policy!!!
Gronzy before - Dec 16, 1999:
(http://www.tet68.net/grozny/images/grozny_square_before_tn.jpg)
Grozny after - Mar 16, 2000:
(http://www.tet68.net/grozny/images/grozny_square_after_tn.jpg)
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May i ask how old you are? Boroda and Grunhetz?....just curious
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23
How bout u nilsen?
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just turned 29..still in my 20's *pheuu* :D
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Not for long.... I turn 24 in a few weeks... shreck I'm getting old...
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I am 31.
Grun, are thare any aerial photos of El Fallujah availible? Before and after?
As your memory is short to non-existant, I'll probably have to include this into my signature template: assault in Grozny in 2000 started after Russian troops surrounded the city and waited for several weeks for unarmed people to leave the city, while brave US troops blocked El Fallujah completely and started bombing it full of women and children. Now tell me about "precision weapons" the glorious USAF used there. Laser-guided antipersonell cluster bombs?
And I still wait for your advises of how to take fortified cities. How is your job in Pentagon? Wages must be very hight for brilliant advisors like you.
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Probably the guy was having a slow day at the office and closest thing he had to shoot at all week. So he fired.
interesting that you would believe a terrorist infested organization before you'd believe the U.S. your ally... oh wait.. not your ally you don't like them.
says what kind of tard errr person you are.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Grun, are thare any aerial photos of El Fallujah availible? Before and after?
Funny. Are you saying we leveled fallujah like you did grozny?
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Funny. Are you saying we leveled fallujah like you did grozny?
You know any other ways to take fortified city with desperate defenders? If so - please tell me how good are wages of Pentagon advisors, because you must be working there.
American forces have started, but then had to stop, and got some nice ambushes Chechen style while withdrawing your glorious marines. I wonder what goes on there now, El Fallujah strangely disappeared from the news several weeks ago.
Some people never learn. Only fools learn on their own mistakes.
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(http://www.usmc.mil/marinelink/image1.nsf/ae82f18a8e1b160b852568ba007e7e5e/42e7c409c23848a585256e75004e81b2/$FILE/mosque1.jpg)
Photo shows the effect of aerial bombardment of Mosque in Fallujah. Marine ground units asked for air support to breach a wall on the periphery of the mosque, and the north wall breach can be seen. Not much leveling of the Mosque occurred, just 20 meters or so of wall.
Fallujah has retreated from the headlines as Iraq security forces have replaced US Marines.
Some people never learn. Only fools learn on their own mistakes.
Maybe better said this way: "Only fools do not learn from their own mistakes, but wise men also learn from other's mistakes."
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Maybe better said this way: "Only fools do not learn from their own mistakes, but wise men also learn from other's mistakes."
alot better
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nice pix holden
can't ask for more precise bombing than that
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Originally posted by Eagler
nice pix holden
can't ask for more precise bombing than that
True, but they dont very often show you all those pgm's that miss. Propaganda works on both sides in this conflict.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
True, but they dont very often show you all those pgm's that miss. Propaganda works on both sides in this conflict.
LOL,
Looks around..... Nothing to see here. Amazing what kids read in the newspaper these dayz.
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Originally posted by WHATTHEHELL
LOL,
Looks around..... Nothing to see here. Amazing what kids read in the newspaper these dayz.
lol...was there a point to that sentance?
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Originally posted by WHATTHEHELL
LOL,
Looks around..... Nothing to see here. Amazing what kids read in the newspaper these dayz.
Ask Bulgarian kids about "precise bombings" when NATO bombed Yugoslavia.
You are lucky US never bombed Mexico, otherwise you could have found your house blown to ashes by some "precise weapon".
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lada... I would never deighn to tell iraqi's how to cellebrate. If they wish to pour gasoline over the wedding party and shoot flare guns at each other that is fine with me... if they juggle live handgrenades I won't stop em...
If they shoot at my helicopter I will minigun every square inch of the reception.
lazs
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What were the civilian death estimates in Chechnya Grun? Are you sure thats a good argument? Some pretty high ones coming out of Iraqi. One could say they are artificially high from Iraqi, but one could say the same from Chechnya...
IMO it is very hard to paint Russia as the single evil country in light of American actions taking place..
dude
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How many people get married at home? The linked article says there were in a small village, not in the middle of the desert. They must have been in some sort of town as 2 buildings were reportedly destroyed..
This is a disgrace if true. More than half those killed were women and children. The article also said it was an ac-130 gunship they was attacked? By small arms fire? I call shanaghens...
dude
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From http://www.aljazeera.com
At least 41 civilians were killed Wednesday when a U.S. helicopter fired on a wedding party in an Iraqi village near the Syrian border.
From http://www.debka.com
Washington: US helicopter strike alleged to have struck wedding party was directed against safe house in al Qaim 25 km from Syrian border occupied by foreign Arab fighters infiltrating Iraq from Syria, who fired at helicopter. Coalition ground forces found quantities of explosives, foreign passports, 2 m Iraqi and Syria dinars and satcom radio. Iraqi sources claimed more than 40 killed. International Red Cross condemns US military for using excessive force in incident.
OK, somebody give me the 100% truth on this one. I only need the guys that know which story is absolutely correct to post.
Thanks in advance.
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Originally posted by Boroda
You know any other ways to take fortified city with desperate defenders? If so - please tell me how good are wages of Pentagon advisors, because you must be working there.
American forces have started, but then had to stop, and got some nice ambushes Chechen style while withdrawing your glorious marines. I wonder what goes on there now, El Fallujah strangely disappeared from the news several weeks ago.
Some people never learn. Only fools learn on their own mistakes.
In our case fallujah dissaperaed from the news beacuse we worked out as settlement with local leaders as best we could, not perfect perhaps but....
However in yur case Grozny dissapered from tyhe local news, well beacuse the city literally dissaperead...
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It's too bad they didn't have any flechette rockets.
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Back to the topic: I understand that "bad things happen", but I can't understand why that "general" couldn't apologize.
In my very humble opinion such people should be fired from the Army immediately.
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How many Russian generals were forced out because of this?
(http://www.tet68.net/grozny/images/grozny_square_after.jpg)
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Originally posted by Boroda
Ask Bulgarian kids about "precise bombings" when NATO bombed Yugoslavia.
You are lucky US never bombed Mexico, otherwise you could have found your house blown to ashes by some "precise weapon".
Russians have NO RIGHT to lecture anyone about humanitarian anything....
Excerpt from JG-52's last few days after they were given to the Russians.
Before the Americans could drive away, they were given a glimpse of the fate to which they had unwittingly delivered civilian women and girls, innocent of any crime save being born in Germany. The Americans found that their Allies were quite capable as individuals of descending to the worst excesses of human savagery. The young GI's from Keokuk ans Kokomo got a good close up of the Russian Bear in action.
The unarmed German men were lined up and a row of hal-drunk Red Army soldiers swayingly covered them with rifles and machine guns. Other Russians hurled the women and girls to the ground, and ripping the clothes from their bodies began raping them in front of their Russian comrades, the agonised Germans, and the GI's standing bugeyed with astonishment in the US Army trucks.
The Americans seemed paralyzed by the spectacle. When two young German girls, stripped bare, ran crying to the trucks and clawed their way up the sides in search of sanctuary, the AMerican guards had the presence of mind to haul them into the truck beds. This chivalry did not sit well with the Russians. Firing wildly in the air and shouting at the Americans, the Russians made ominous moves to towards the trucks. THe GI's let in their clutches and gunned their vehicles down the road. The last threat to their full indulgence removed, the Russians fell on the German women.
A young German woman in her early 30's, wife of a sergeant and mother of a twelve year old girl, begged on her knees to a Russian corporal, and alternately prayed to God, that the Soviet soldiers should take her and spare her daughter. Her prayers went unaswered. Tears pouring down her cheeks, she wept out her appeal while the watching German men stood with gun barrels thrust into their bellies.
The Russian corporal stepped back from the woman, his face contorted by a sneer. One of the four soldiers with him slammed his boot into the woman's stomach with all his force. "You damned facist pig!" he yelled. The young mother rolled over gasping. The soldier who kicked her, then killed her with a single rifle shot through the head.
The RUssians grabbed every German female in sight, regardless of age. The twelve year old daughter of the slain woman was dragged behind a tank by her mother's killer. Other Russians joined him. Half an hour later, crying and croaking, unable to stand and completely nude, the ravaged child came crawling back around the tank. She collapsed like a broken doll.
Amidst the backdrop of the unspeakable scene in the once peaceful meadow, there was nothing prominent about the crippled child's plight. THe powerless Germans urged their Russian guards to let them help the girl. Burp guns at the ready, the Russians let a German medic through to attend to the child. She was dead within in an hour, her final whimperings tearing the hearts out of Erich and his men.
Eight and Nine yearold girls were pitiously raped time after time by hulking Russian soldiers. They showed no feelings other than hate and lust. As each brute satisfied himself amid the wildly terrified screams and groans of the women, Erich and his men stared into the muzzles of machine guns.
With blood on their uniforms the Russians who had slaked their lusts came grinning to relieve the machine gunners standing gurad over the Luftwaffe men. Mothers who tried to protect infant daughters were clubbed senseless and dragged aside, then raped as they lay unconscious. Hard-case pilot who had survived hundreds of air battles and many wounds broke down and wept unashamedly. Sick to heartin a way he had never known in his life, Erich fought an overpowering impulse to retch.
THis went on through the night, with some women and children taken away to never be seenn again....
(taken from "the Blond Knight of Germany - a biography of Erich Hartmann)
Russian's have no right to lecture ANY country about human rights, or maltreatment. For they have writtne the encyclopedia of horror when it comes to brutality to other humans.
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Unfortunately - no one....
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Russians have NO RIGHT to lecture anyone about humanitarian anything....
Excerpt from JG-52's last few days after they were given to the Russians.
go on sticking to cold war stuff.
we russians eat german babies for breakfast. it's a well known fact since XVIII century.
Amen.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Unfortunately - no one....
I'm curious why do you say "unfortunately?"
Because from my point of view up now you have been very much in praise of this action...
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Boroda
Unfortunately - no one....
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
I'm curious why do you say "unfortunately?"
Because from my point of view up now you have been very much in praise of this action...
How many Russian generals were forced out because of this?
I meant the bastards who organised the New Year 1995 in Grozniy...
Grun, my e-mail is tengrie@sky.chph.ras.ru - I can send you a film about assault in Grozniy 1995....
"Chistilische" is a horrible film...
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Bodhi and Grun, you guys should get off your high horses. Sure the russians probably did terrible things, but dont think that American in her own time has not commited atrocities all over the entire world, like the russians or any other country that held power at one time..
I believe it would be called hypocrasy..
dude
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
I believe it would be called hypocrasy..
Exactly.
Especially when GH is all the way supportive to the genocide of the population of Srpska Krajna.
His best argument is that "it was planned and supported by US Army"...
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Boroda the 95 croatian liberation anti-terrorist campaign was a master work of precision artillery and humanbe warfighting!
The croatian armyv was extremely kind and allowwed all the serbs to leave. It was a great humanitarian operation. In fact I hear the russians planned the Grozny humane compassiuon offensive adfter this attack. You see some of the serbs who lefty krsajina eventually ended up in russia and had nothing but glowing praise forv the thoughful and considerate croatian offensive.
There, you aught to like that!!! Just like pravda!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Boroda the 95 croatian liberation anti-terrorist campaign was a master work of precision artillery and humanbe warfighting!
The croatian armyv was extremely kind and allowwed all the serbs to leave. It was a great humanitarian operation. In fact I hear the russians planned the Grozny humane compassiuon offensive adfter this attack. You see some of the serbs who lefty krsajina eventually ended up in russia and had nothing but glowing praise forv the thoughful and considerate croatian offensive.
There, you aught to like that!!! Just like pravda!
I can understand Serbian or English or Russian.
I don't understand the language you used here.
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there is allways the possibility that the helicopter crew thought that gixers relatives might be at the wedding celebration.
lazs
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Boroda the 95 croatian liberation anti-terrorist campaign was a master work of precision artillery and humanbe warfighting!
It's a beautyful example of justification for throwning 350 000 Serbs out of their homes. "humanbe warfighting". Exactly. Especially with the assistance of your beloved Masters. You had your Masters in 1941-44 and later in 1992-95. Great example of obedience.
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They werent thrown out of their homes. Thats silly. The croatian policy was to allow anyonme to leave if they didnt carry weapons. You see just like the humane russians did later at grozny, the croatian forces kindly let innocent civilans get out of harms way before the fighting - that way no innecnts got hurt and we could concentrate on precise strikes against the terrorists. Just like grozny!
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Originally posted by TheDudeDVant
Bodhi and Grun, you guys should get off your high horses. Sure the russians probably did terrible things, but dont think that American in her own time has not commited atrocities all over the entire world, like the russians or any other country that held power at one time..
I believe it would be called hypocrasy..
dude
Dude,
You need to get off your own high horse. I never said anything up there that remotely said that Americans were perfect. I specifically stated to our resident comunist sympathiser that the Russians can never lecture about brutality. Thats all. They have killed millions over the years, far more than the Germans ever thought of. Yet to hear Boroda tell it, they (Russia) are the guardians of the free world.
Then again, maybe the Russians are the saviors of the free world like Boroda said.... :rolleyes: Somehow though, I really bet all those unmarked graves across Soviet Asia would beg to differ.
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Originally posted by Boroda
go on sticking to cold war stuff.
we russians eat german babies for breakfast. it's a well known fact since XVIII century.
Amen.
Lol, that excerpt was during WW2, it has nothing to do with the Cold War behavior of the Soviets. You can continue to turn a blind eye towards your country's behavior all you like... but the fact remains and is well documented. Hell, Boroda you should move to the Middle East and become a reporter for Al Jazeera.... your prepensity for distorting the facts would fit in well with their style of reporting!
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
The croatian policy was to allow anyonme to leave if they didnt carry weapons. You see just like the humane russians did later at grozny, the croatian forces kindly let innocent civilans get out of harms way before the fighting - that way no innecnts got hurt and we could concentrate on precise strikes against the terrorists. Just like grozny!
Exactly.
No civilians were harmed.
Just persuaded to leave their homes.
I'll desperately run away from my filthy 5-stored apartment house if i'll see a 105mm tank cannon barrel breaking my window.
WTG brave Croatian forces. With US advisory.
Tell me who's your friend and I'll tell who you are.
BTW, weren't you too young to join Croatian zondercommanden when you left your Motherland? Aren't you a victim of "communism" being 8 years old when Yugoslavia broke apart?...
Leaving for the US was a good opportunity to avoid an army service, wasn't it?....
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Originally posted by Boroda
I wonder what goes on there now, El Fallujah strangely disappeared from the news several weeks ago.
It didnt disappeared.
pre-last news were US ultimatum
last news were US is leaving and they will leave it to Iraqi police :D
brave marines lost probably balls :D
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Originally posted by Boroda
Leaving for the US was a good opportunity to avoid an army service, wasn't it?....
Look Boroda, they claimed me USA hater, terrorist and cyber terrorist....
and i did avoid services as well, service is place for brainwashed patriots in general :D
somehow i didnt find any ideology worth to die
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Good point. Russia was friends wirth slobodan miloshevic up to the last possible second. Oh my what company you keep....
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If we are to pull up skeletons from the past, be extra careful on just what you pull up and chastise a people or nation for.
Lest we forget, America was built on the blood of the innocent.
-SW
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Originally posted by lada
service is place for brainwashed patriots in general
:mad:
;)
:D
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
Good point. Russia was friends wirth slobodan miloshevic up to the last possible second. Oh my what company you keep....
well .. why dont you mind in this (http://www.impeach-bush-now.org/Articles/Rumsfeld/skeleton_files/Rumsfeld_Saddam.jpg) case Grun ?
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Originally posted by Nilsen
:mad:
;)
:D
i fear to ask.... but.. were you in service ? LOL
:D
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Originally posted by lada
i fear to ask.... but.. were you in service ? LOL
:D
hehe 2,5 years ...not as a conscript either, i voulenteered :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen
hehe 2,5 years ...not as a conscript either, i voulenteered :D
ahh... 2.5 year if intensive cleaning :D
I were 1.5 year working on University instead :)
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Originally posted by lada
well .. why dont you mind in this (http://www.impeach-bush-now.org/Articles/Rumsfeld/skeleton_files/Rumsfeld_Saddam.jpg) case Grun ?
What else would yiu expect from the grait shaitan USA?
But dear peaceful pure Russia, well I should be shocked....
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Originally posted by lada
ahh... 2.5 year if intensitive cleaning :D
I were 1.5 year working on University instead :)
nah, i only cleaned for the first year (officer candidate school or whatever its called in the us/uk/world). after that i had conscripts cleaning for me :D
did 4 years of university after that :)
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Originally posted by Staga
I'll take it you're a kid and your sig-line has nothing to do with reality ?
No..I'm 28...just tired of reality..tired of Iraq...tired of world politics...and especially tired of the double standards of this world when it comes to America's actions.
Would any other enemy care if they killed innocent Americans in a bombardment..NO!! Have American POWs ever gotten treatment consitant with the Geneva convention..NO..So mistakes are made..Iraq is a war zone...anyone in a war zone should know that thay run the risk of getting killed or injured intentionally or unintentionally...
Don't ever question my hold on reality..I may not be in Iraq with my brothers in the military, but I do put myself "In harms way" on a daily basis providing Security and Safety at a major Naval air station here stateside. If something were to go down at my post me and my shipmates could be dead before anyone even could figure out what happened. So I think I know what REALITY is. Do You?:aok
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Originally posted by Coolridr
Would any other enemy care if they killed innocent Americans in a bombardment..NO!! Have American POWs ever gotten treatment consitant with the Geneva convention..NO..So mistakes are made..Iraq is a war zone...anyone in a war zone should know that thay run the risk of getting killed or injured intentionally or unintentionally...
Are you serious?
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Originally posted by Gixer
Probably the guy was having a slow day at the office and closest thing he had to shoot at all week. So he fired.
Seems all to often that we hear of more inocents being killed by US fire whether civilians or coalition forces. My cousin was in the first Gulf War with British forces and they got so tired of being shot at by US forces they resorted to tieing massive orange tarpolines to all their vehicles.
Didn't help the British forces from suffering more casulaties to US fire then they did to Iraqi.
...-Gixer
twat
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Are you serious?
Yes I'm serious...I take it you don't agree...please elaborate
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I find that statement rather "strange". Would you care to list the enemies you are talking about?
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funked... I believe that it was rumored that gixers realtives were at the wedding.
lazs
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Originally posted by Gixer
Probably the guy was having a slow day at the office and closest thing he had to shoot at all week. So he fired.
Man, just when you think he cant say anything more stupid, he goes and opens his mouth again.
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Originally posted by lazs2
...If they shoot at my helicopter I will minigun every square inch of the reception.
lazs
What a coincidence, I was thinking the same thing about this guy.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
twat
One of the more intelligent and thought out replies I've had in a while. LOL
...-Gixer
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twat is short and to the point.... not easy to find a good argument against what you said Gixer so it was the best he could do ;)
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US says no evidence that forces struck wedding party in Iraq
2 hours, 1 minute ago Add Politics - AFP to My Yahoo!
BAGHDAD (AFP) - The US military displayed photographs of military equipment, medical supplies and "dormitory" style accommodation at the site of a US airstrike that some people claim had hit a wedding party in Iraq (news - web sites).
US Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt showed the images at a press conference in Baghdad in response to repeated questions over the incident, in which some media organisations have reported more than 40 people were killed at a wedding.
Kimmitt said US forces which scoured the area of the combined ground and air attack in the western Iraqi desert had found "no evidence of a wedding".
Instead they discovered items such as "terrorist training manuals", military binoculars, foreign passports, medical equipment and possible narcotics, and dormitory-style accommodation for 300 people.
He repeated that the attack on Wednesday was based on intelligence that armed insurgents were gathering in the remote desert near the Syrian border and that US ground forces were fired upon before calling in the air strike.
The Arab satellite news channel Al-Arabiya aired footage of bodies wrapped in blankets and loaded on trucks, and quoted witnesses as saying that aircraft also destroyed other houses apart from the venue of the wedding party.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040522/pl_afp/iraq_us_strike_040522171930
Seems like the facts really dont matter much any more.
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Originally posted by Pooh21
Man, just when you think he cant say anything more stupid, he goes and opens his mouth again.
Gixer, military affairs expert Gixer.
Twat.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What else would yiu expect from the grait shaitan USA?
But dear peaceful pure Russia, well I should be shocked....
but this whole discusion is not about question, whos is worster.
its about fact, that US act as Russia in diferent coat.
So it mean Emreka is not less FUBAR that russia...
but main diferent between you and Boroda is, that he at least accept some of russian crimes, but you still live in perfect world, full of perfect people, whitch know everything.
yeah american advisors, it remaind me russian advisors after 1968 Boroda :D
Some of them still belive that we loved them :D
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Originally posted by Nilsen
I find that statement rather "strange". Would you care to list the enemies you are talking about?
local political crisis :D
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Gixer, military affairs expert Gixer.
Twat.
Guess that was a military statistic you'd care not have mentioned and try to forget. Hence your remark. Amazing how many people can't comment at times and resort to simple personal or derogatory remarks. Like avacado.
No wonder so many threads get closed and so quickly.
...-Gixer
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nilsen... how would you reply to someone who said your countrymen shot up a wedding full of nothing but women and children because they were... bored? "twat" seems aprapo.
but... seems the wedding party may have been more than bridesmaids and flower bearers and crippled old women. after all..
probly some of gixers cousins were there fireing at the evil U.S. helicopters too.
lazs
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To Arab's, truth is situational. 'Truth' is what advances your position. If you store weapons, ammo and explosives in the middle of a town and your storehouse it's attacked by your enemy and townsfolk die, it automatically become a 'Wedding' ( or maybe a Baby Food Factory).
It just couldn't be anything else. Only your enemy can do wrong, not you. And you're always the 'Victim' .
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Congrats.
You djust made XX amount of new terrorists.
WTG!
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Congrats, you djust made my ignore list, along with avacado-boy.
WTG!
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Originally posted by lazs2
nilsen... how would you reply to someone who said your countrymen shot up a wedding full of nothing but women and children because they were... bored? "twat" seems aprapo.
Yes, it did seem appropriate.
But, I'm guilty of everything Gixer accuses me of, and I'm sorry for making such a rude personal insult. But what else can you say to such a disgusting accusation? Especially when it comes from someone who posts little else but such feces?
Originally posted by lazs2
but... seems the wedding party may have been more than bridesmaids and flower bearers and crippled old women. after all..
Unfortunately the anti-amreeka cockroaches are blinded by their bigotry, and they never considered this possibility before they polluted the board with their moronic musings.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Congrats, you djust made my ignore list, along with avacado-boy.
WTG!
hey did I make your ignore list yet?
hello??
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Yes, it did seem appropriate.
But, I'm guilty of everything Gixer accuses me of, and I'm sorry for making such a rude personal insult. But what else can you say to such a disgusting accusation? Especially when it comes from someone who posts little else but such feces?
Unfortunately the anti-amreeka cockroaches are blinded by their bigotry, and they never considered this possibility before they polluted the board with their moronic musings.
Which accusation was disgusting? I only posted a fact from Gulf War 1
...-Gixer
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Videotape of the wedding and the aftermath comes out.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack&cid=540&ncid=716
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Videotape of the wedding and the aftermath comes out.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack&cid=540&ncid=716
This whole thing totally reminds me of how Nixon got pwned during the debates because he really didn't grasp the concept of television.
Now we have internet warz.
What's the saying? Adapt, overcome, etc.
Folks gotta come to grips with the fact that, chances are, it's gonna be hard to keep things secret.
Buddy pulls a scam on ebay? Busted. Same in Iraq.
I dig it.
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Let the world see that coke (the drink) is there to join us all together as a single large happy family.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
Videotape of the wedding and the aftermath comes out.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040523/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_attack&cid=540&ncid=716
No doubt about it.. Thats just plain ****ing sick! This brings only more shame to america..
dude
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Of course youd cream your pants at anything that brings shame to America.
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I'm not at all denying that this story is true but it seems like its full of ALOT of wholes. It talks about soldiers comeing and leaving....than people breaking leggs and dieing than people sleeping than bombs falling (irc thaught it was a gunship that hit the area) than more poeple dieing...than more soldiers. Sounds to me like the wedding was over but I dont get a clear picture from this article. Either its very poorly written or its pretty inaccurat.
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Originally posted by Toad:
Believe me, I wasn't suprised at who didn't participate.
For such a smart man you should realise everyone aren't watching this board like hawks and can actually miss a thread or two.
I found out about NB only recently when I stumbled to the beheading video through a third party.
Even though I'd seen a few such beheadings committed to russian soldiers and a jewish reporter (this was not the first such video), it still shocked me. In my mind the terrorists couldn't find a better way to create antiterrorism than the video they displayed.
Then again, without the gulf2 NB would still be playing football with his friends and eating fries at mcdonalds. The amount of terrorists and terrorism has exploded after the conflict which is a directly opposite result to what you went there for.
It's something most of us anti-war guys predicted and warned you about. I truly wished I would've been wrong on that one.
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
For such a smart man you should realise everyone aren't watching this board like hawks and can actually miss a thread or two.
I found out about NB only recently when I stumbled to the beheading video through a third party.
Even though I'd seen a few such beheadings committed to russian soldiers and a jewish reporter (this was not the first such video), it still shocked me. In my mind the terrorists couldn't find a better way to create antiterrorism than the video they displayed.
Then again, without the gulf2 NB would still be playing football with his friends and eating fries at mcdonalds. The amount of terrorists and terrorism has exploded after the conflict which is a directly opposite result to what you went there for.
It's something most of us anti-war guys predicted and warned you about. I truly wished I would've been wrong on that one.
I personally think though that its better to fight them on their home field than in the streets of New York and DC. It just sucks that innocent Iraqis are caught up in the cross fire.
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Yes I understand that Gunslinger but the question really here is:
Was iraq the home field before gulf2? For sure it became one afterwards.
The problem with terrorism is that there is no home field. They can reside anywhere, any time and can be anyone.
I know this personally as a friends friend (whom I personally didn't know though) was caught in the november terrorist busts in Greece.
She was a middle aged, relatively wealthy mother of 3.
Nobody could ever even believe she was somehow involved. The grim fact is, the home field is more than often your own backyard.
:(
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I personally think though that its better to fight them on their home field than in the streets of New York and DC. It just sucks that innocent Iraqis are caught up in the cross fire.
Us being over there does not make it any more less likely for terrorists to strike us here. They have no home field.
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To Whom It May Concern:
Just a real quick one here, When I was in Iraq and Afghanistan, and someone, well anyone was firing a weapon at me or my aircraft (even if it was celebration fire), they got a call for fire, and fire for effect. They know we are in the area, and they should know better. Please don’t Monday morning quarter back our troops. Anyone who wants to make a difference in our Rules of Engagement, please feel free to go to OCS and become an officer or run for congress. I know we work for “The People” but give me a break. Please don’t comment on something you know nothing about.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Incidentally "twat" is an acronym for The War Against Terror. *lol*
:rofl
I don't care who said it, that's a good one....
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Some of you are so fast to tow the line on what ever the Pentagon or Bush admin say that I wonder if you actually think for yourselves for a second on other possiblities of events that may show that the party was mistakenly bombed with no provication at all.
Prisoner abuse and events like this is what makes the US so popular in the Arab world and so mistrusted no matter how much "good" work they try to portray is being accomplished in Iraq.
Wedding video weakens US attack claims
RAMADI (Iraq) - The United States faced another setback in Iraq after a videotape obtained by AP appeared to confirm that a wedding party was attacked by US planes, killing up to 45 people.
The US military has insisted that its target on Wednesday was a suspected safehouse for foreign fighters.
Advertisement
'There was no evidence of a wedding, no decorations, no musical instruments... no large quantities of food,' US military spokesman Brigadier-General Mark Kimmitt said on Saturday.
'There may have been some kind of celebration. Bad people have celebrations, too.'
But a video that AP Television News shot a day after the attack, which took place in Mogr el-Deeb village about 8km from the Syrian border, showed fragments of musical instruments, pots and pans scattered around the bombed-out tent. There was also brightly coloured bedding used for celebrations.
The wedding tape which AP obtained showed a dozen white trucks speeding through the desert escorting the bridal car - decorated with colourful ribbons.
An AP reporter and a photographer, who interviewed more than a dozen survivors, were able to identify many of them on the wedding party video.
One of the survivors, Bassem, said: 'There are no fighters. These are lies. There's no resistance. Even the bride and groom died.'
Yesterday, the US military insisted it had hit a legitimate target. -- AP, AFP, Reuters
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Originally posted by Siaf__csf
Yes I understand that Gunslinger but the question really here is:
Was iraq the home field before gulf2? For sure it became one afterwards.
The problem with terrorism is that there is no home field. They can reside anywhere, any time and can be anyone.
I know this personally as a friends friend (whom I personally didn't know though) was caught in the november terrorist busts in Greece.
She was a middle aged, relatively wealthy mother of 3.
Nobody could ever even believe she was somehow involved. The grim fact is, the home field is more than often your own backyard.
:(
Very true....I'm not naieve (sp) enough to think that I wont be seeing mushroom clouds over a few US cities in the next few years. I dont think that's a bush or kerry think, I think its bound to happen. But think of all the anti American muslims that flooded into Iraq to kill our soldiers....equally good/bad we could have killed the next osama bin laden....or created him. I still however, think Iraq is worth it. If I had to say somthing critical about GWB i'd say this. I only wish we would have caught OBL before Iraq. But I'm not Naieve (sp) enough to think terrorism would have stopped after that.
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Some few may have missed the Berg threads but they were long and they stayed near the top for days.
Many of you "anti-war guys" fit John Stuart Mills description to a "T".
No one likes war; OTOH it's pretty axiomatic that change follows war. For such a smart man you should realise that. ;)
The true test of this conflict, in the end, will be what happens in the Middle Eastern countries with respect to personal freedoms and the progress of democracy over the next 10-20 years.
We're always exhorted to "take the Chinese view", take the "long view".
No one knows how large or small the change may be. This could be a watershed event in the history of the Middle East/Arab world.
THIS may actually be the event that brings the Arab world out of the past and into the modern world. THAT would probably be the death-knell for Arabic terrorists.
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And some of you are so fast to tow the line on what ever the CNN or MSNBC that I wonder if you actually think for yourselves for a second on other possiblities of events that may show that the target was a terrorist staging area and bombed for exactly the right reasons.
Again, it's too early to tell. Has anyone yet been able to show when the "wedding photos" were taken?
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That's right.
So which goal do you want to work towards?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Peace and democracy. I'm afraid this war will bring neither.
What is bad about the war in Iraq? Before, you said you were not against the war, only the reasons given for going to war. ( which is a contradiction a lot like to use as if making a point)
You honestly think that Iraq would have been better off if we had left Saddam alone? I believe Saddam is responsible for over a million deaths in the Iran Iraq war. He killed an additional 300,000- 500,000 of his own people. He tortured, terrorized and maimed his own people as a matter of policy.
Now you say they will never be free? How do you know? You seem to sure be negative about their prospects for freedom in light of the best chance they will ever have to be free.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Oh yes I'm quite pessimistic about this war. Do you think it is going well?
The question is not whether Hussein was an oppressive dictator or not, but rather who or what will replace him. In a country where two thirds of the population is Shiite Muslim that have been oppressed by the Bathist Sunnis for decades ... sure democracy will work. Welcome to the Islamic Republic of Iraq ... or better yet the Islamic Republic of Persia.
So the solution would be to kill all the muslims?
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http://newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/5/24/230126.shtml
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Originally posted by GScholz
Peace and democracy. I'm afraid this war will bring neither.
Well, you just never know do you?
There's no stopping it now, is there? June 30 will be the first step into a new era for Iraq.
Long term it'll either be a step on the road bringing the Arab world out of the past and into the modern world, a step towards more peace and more democracy in the Middle East.
Or it may unite the Arabs against a common enemy, and destroy the few struggling democracies in the region in a new wave of Islamic fundamentalism.
Some people will work hard to achieve the first goal, peace and democracy. Others will work hard to achieve Islamic Fundamentalism. Still others will remain uninvolved with the exception of heaping criticism on those trying to work for peace and democracy.
Which group will you be in?
(BTW, just who are the "struggling democracies" in the Middle East right now?)
How democratic is the Middle East? (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3250773.stm)