Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Toad on May 19, 2004, 06:41:04 PM
-
Well, apparently they got it working.
1CONVERTING TURKEY OFFAL INTO BIO-DERIVED HYDROCARBON OIL WITH THE CWT THERMAL PROCESS (http://www.changingworldtech.com/pdf/GenConfLasVegas3_3_04.pdf)
200 T/D (ton-per-day) COMMERCIAL PLANT IN CARTHAGE, MO An operating plant based on the CWT-TP process has been constructed in Carthage, MO next to a turkey-processing slaughterhouse.
The CWT-TP facility processes approximately 200 t/d of turkey offal and grease continuously, 7 days a week. Included in the feedstock are the offal, bones, heads, feet, blood and feathers from the turkeys. The plant produces about 500 bbl/d of 2API 40+ oil together with about 7 t/d of carbon, 8 t/d of mineral fertilizer, 12 t/d of a nitrogen-rich fertilizer, and a medium Btu gas that is used internally.
Jeez..... you think they really did it?
-
"No war for Turkeys"
-
Not sure. You see the part where ag waste like cornstalks can be made into a liquid fuel?
If you take all the waste laying around and derive oil from it... wow.
-
Whaaaaaa!
I lost the Michelangelo/Turkey Guts picture I made for that thread.
:(
-
Originally posted by GScholz
But will it be cheaper than just pumping it up from the ground? I doubt it.
Cheaper? Prolly not. But it's cool cuz it's so Indian-like. Using every part of the animal.
eg., they ate the buffalo meat and used the hide for warmth.
We, otoh, get to eat at KFC and pump the remains into our cars. Sweet!
-
perfect!
and now when we run out of the ground type we have something to make oil from
-
I'm not sure; they didn't directly address that but they did say this:
The energy input includes the energy in the dry feed, the electric power used, and any purchased natural gas that must be fired.
Energy efficiency for this design of the CWT-TP process is about 85%.
Some of the CWT-TP fuel-gas must be used to operate the plant and, of course, pumps, motors, and some heaters require electric power. The energy efficiency of the CWT-TP process is generally fairly high because most of the water that enters the plant leaves as a liquid rather than as water vapor.
This is because the CWT-TP process is designed to use the steam that is generated internally to heat the incoming feedstock. Energy efficiency is only one measure of the performance of the plant.
For the CWT-TP plant shown in Figure 6, “economic” efficiency is more important. To achieve this, additional equipment is incorporated in the design to produce a saleable dry mineral product and a glycerol plus (NH4)2SO4 product.
A plant designed for a different feedstock, such as tires or plastics, would have less equipment, and even higher energy efficiency.
It's 85% efficient including the feedstock energy.
So, if you're pumping worthless waste "energy" in.. like cornstalks... and you are creating diesel fuel from that, it may well be that it becomes very competitive or even advantageous with respect to pumping oil out of the ground.
Same with the gazillions of worn out tires laying around. Lots and lots of energy in those and they are basically an intrinsically worthless item (priot to this technology).
There's some cost to pumping oil out of the ground. I wonder if 15% of the cost of a barrel of oil is energy used to "get it into the barrel."
This is going to be very interesting, I think. I'm sure they'll come out with a better economic analysis after that plant runs a while.
-
Did you read it? They basically said the TDP-40 is equivalent to biodiesel.
The product oil produced from the Carthage, MO plant is a high value crude oil that may be compared to diesel fuel. Both diesel fuel and TDP-40 consist of mixtures of hydrocarbons. The range of carbon chain lengths for diesel fuel is from about 10 to 30, with a small portion falling outside this range. Cetane, with a carbon chain length of 16, is used as a standard for diesel combustion characteristics. Cetane would be referred to as a C-16 hydrocarbon. TDP-40, and other bio-derived fuels such as bio-diesel, have shorter chain lengths and a narrower range of chain lengths. The dominant carbon chain lengths of bio-derived fuels are between 15 and 19, with only a very small portion above C-20. This
-
The first article said that you can plug one of these right into a refinery system and using what are now "waste products" at a refinery, you can create more oil.
The oil companies have apparently expressed an interest in building these plants into their refineries already.
:) Just too good to be true..... so it probably is.
-
Really interesting. So do we have to use only turkeys?
C2,8,10-->,C20,30 fuel
http://www.elmhurst.edu/~chm/vchembook/509fossilfuel.html
-
API 40+ is pretty good for using turkeys.
Crude oil basics (http://www.wetestit.com/Crude_101.htm)
crude oil specifications & API (http://www.emis.platts.com/thezone/guides/platts/oil/crudeoilspecs.html)
-
Back when the first artical got posted I looked them up on the internet, and it was in discover magazine. It all seemed legit.
-
Neat technology!
However it will take the PETA/Eco-Terrorists 10 minutes to find fault with it and label it as evil!
:(
-
Whats sad about that Grun is you are right! LOL this is a fantastic thing envirnmentaly, you could eliminate land fills with it.
Yet they will prolly be agaist it just because it will continue the propigation of the internal combustion engine.
My solution? Feel eco freaks and peta people into the machine.
-
True, but now we can convert the PETA types into oil.
-
OK......, OK....., will it work with Geese??? I just realized the real potentional here. If you could toss Geese in that thing and get GAS out, it would be the greatest invention since sliced bread.
Please, please tell me it works with Geese.
-
Jeez, get ready for the turkey matrix.....Some saved thanksgiving bird name neo will be busting out soon.
-
I read an article in popular mechanics about it (maybe a year ago). they said they could convert almost anything.
I forget what all the end result is, there was oil, carbon, various minerals and something else (natural gas, maybe? it's been awhile).
the article said that any type of garbage could be used, they just had to alter the cook times at different stages of the process, and that they would end up with different ratios of output, depending on what they used.
it doesn't even have to be a biological waste, they said that they could even use old computers and such but they'd have to be ground into dust first.
very exciting technology.
-
Flashback to organic chemistry - This is some wicked technology, but it seems pretty straightforward, which means Im probably not understanding it at all. I am sure that I don't understand the cracking part in step 3 where it converts to a lighter grade oil, but I assume they are breaking off hydrogen atoms or at least breaking hydrogen bonds of some type. Anyone know what cracking means? Please no crackpipe jokes.
I read an article about it a year or so ago and I remember it said something about using this process on a really small scale - like having it in your home and feeding all of your waste into it, including sewage. Or maybe it was talking about a toilet, I cant remember. But iirc it would break down almost any organic material, which includes all of the petroleum products and man made polymers, I think.
I also a remember a very Dune-like reference to how much oil and how much water you would get from a human.
also it generates its own butane to run the powerplant. awesome.
-
Originally posted by Otto
OK......, OK....., will it work with Geese??? I just realized the real potentional here. If you could toss Geese in that thing and get GAS out, it would be the greatest invention since sliced bread.
Please, please tell me it works with Geese.
I used to live in a townhouse built on an old farm, and the geese from the farm still lived there. They were the noisiest bunch of fowl I have ever seen. Their honking could be heard across the lake. They would just walk around honking their fool heads off. Starting at sunrise or so. I hated them bastards.
-
Originally posted by strk
I am sure that I don't understand the cracking part in step 3 where it converts to a lighter grade oil, but I assume they are breaking off hydrogen atoms or at least breaking hydrogen bonds of some type. Anyone know what cracking means?
not sure exactly how it works. they use the same technology in refineries. I've built and repaired the cracking vessels but never fully understood the science behind why it works. the process involves a pressure vessel, high-heat, and a catalyst. but whatever is happening to it on a molecular level is a bit beyond me.
-
Wazi lern so much prom AH bbs. Imso glads I lernd to reed and right english from time to time.
:D
Who need teh turkys yes. We need moor energy conservtion and techneics.
:)
-
Im reeding originl Toad post and what is Btu?
-
NO BLOOD FOR TURKEY BLOOD!
-
BTW, need more data.
Their efficiency claim is kind of fuzzy. It could be saying they are using 100 BTU of electricity and natural gas to make 85 btu of turkey fuel. In which case it is pretty much worthless.
-
Ok, take this with some skepticism because of the old adage "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is."
Here's a pretty recent Newsday article (April '04) that goes into more detail and is astounding, at least to me.
Turning Garbage into Oil—and Cash (http://www.mindfully.org/Energy/2004/Changing-World-Technologies4apr04.htm)
Here's the "teaser line"... it sure popped my eyes open!
Appel acknowledges that, for now, his process only makes financial sense for very large producers of waste. He said the next few plants Changing World builds will need to handle much more waste than the 250 tons per day treated in Missouri, in order to be as competitive as possible with conventional oil and gas.
Right now, he said, the Carthage facility produces petroleum at the equivalent price of $15 per barrel -- about $5 more than what it costs a small oil company to find, extract and refine petroleum the conventional way.
-
Cool, keep posting this stuff.
My old man will love this, he built an rdf (refuse derived fuel) power plant for WPAFB back in the day.
-
No Funk, they're saying it takes 100 BTU input, consisting of the "feedstock" (which can be old tires or cornstalks or turkey guts... "worthless" items), some minor amount of electricity and some flammable gas (which can be generated from earlier processing) to make 85 BTU of output.
So, if your old tires are providing say 90 BTU of the energy, your real cost is 10 BTU of electric and gas to get 85 BTU of output.
At least I think that's what they are saying. ;)
-
Originally posted by wazimada
Im reeding originl Toad post and what is Btu?
a British Thermal Unit - a measurement of energy. I think it can also be expressed as as Calories or KiloCalories. I couldnt remember if Joules fit in their somewhere and a quick google search shows that a joule is about 1/1000th of a BTU
-
LOL! Remember Mr Fusion in Back to the Future II I guess we're truly in the future now
-
Somebody check my math.. this is mind-boggling.
Pilot plant is win-win for area (http://www.joplinindependent.com/display_article.php/dan-w1070575702)
......The Carthage plant reportedly is designed to produce 400 to 500 barrels of oil per day from 200 tons of waste from a variety of sources. .......
...The United States produces 6 billion tons of poultry waste annually.
OK, I'm tired and I'm running the math in my head.
200 tons of poultry waste = 500 barrels of "biodiesel"
The US produces 6 billion tons of poultry waste per year.
If it all were converted..... 150 Billion barrels of oil?
Or did I miss some zeros?
The US imports ~ 20 million barrels a day.
So we can get 750 days of oil from poultry waste if we recycle it all?
What did I do wrong.. that can't be true.
If it IS true...... Full Speed Ahead with Changing World Technologies.
I musta miscalulated. It's late.. niters.
-
Originally posted by Toad
Somebody check my math.. this is mind-boggling.
Pilot plant is win-win for area (http://www.joplinindependent.com/display_article.php/dan-w1070575702)
OK, I'm tired and I'm running the math in my head.
200 tons of poultry waste = 500 barrels of "biodiesel"
The US produces 6 billion tons of poultry waste per year.
If it all were converted..... 150 Billion barrels of oil?
Or did I miss some zeros?
The US imports ~ 20 million barrels a day.
So we can get 750 days of oil from poultry waste if we recycle it all?
What did I do wrong.. that can't be true.
If it IS true...... Full Speed Ahead with Changing World Technologies.
I musta miscalulated. It's late.. niters.
15 Billion - 75 days.
not bad though, for a bunch of chicken ****. I bet if tapped Congress we could get another 6 billion
-
.....The Carthage plant reportedly is designed to produce 400 to 500 barrels of oil per day from 200 tons of waste from a variety of sources. .......
Barrel of API 40 should be about 288 lb.
500 barrels at 288 lb/barrel is 72 tons. So it doesn't violate conservation of mass. :)
-
Originally posted by FUNKED1
Barrel of API 40 should be about 288 lb.
500 barrels at 288 lb/barrel is 72 tons. So it doesn't violate conservation of mass. :)
and the balance is just distilled water and some minerals? I read it earlier but forgot - its on a diagram near the end.
This is great technology - and its green! Yeaarrrrggghhhh!!!
-
Turkey's are not going to be happy when they rea about this!!!
-
Now we just need to adapt the technology to work with terrorists.
-
er but Funked.... That would mean... oh mu GOD!
NO BLOOD FOR BLOOD!!!!!!
-
Does it matter if the turkeys are raised free range or not?
-
Well it would probably be acceptable with free range turkeys as long as they died of natural causes and had of course signed a waiver beforehand.
The whole invade other countrys and take their oil strategy might be cheaper in the long run.
-
Originally posted by strk
and the balance is just distilled water and some minerals? This is great technology - and its green! Yeaarrrrggghhhh!!!
I can't wait for the day Ripsnort fill's his BMW at the local GOREGAS station. :rofl
(http://www.palmpower.com/issues/issue200010/GOREINTERVIEW-A-SM.GIF)
-
Originally posted by rpm371
I can't wait for the day Ripsnort fill's his BMW at the local GOREGAS station. :rofl
(http://www.palmpower.com/issues/issue200010/GOREINTERVIEW-A-SM.GIF)
his hybrid BMW
-
Right now they are PAYING to get rid of this waste. It's win/win.
Also, they HAVE to get rid of the waste. They can't let the turkey innards pile up indefinitely.
Sure, the price of "turkeydiesel" may rise. But the important part of this is that it provides a renewable, domestic source of energy. LOTS of energy.
There's no way this won't drive the price of oil lower if it's ever fully implemented.
There's no way this won't "decrease America's dependence on foreign oil".
There's no way this won't help clean-up AND green-up America.
The rest of the world gets the same benefits if they use the technology.
Cripes, current estimates of scrap tires in stockpiles across the nation range from 300-million to 500-million, and this year Americans will generate 280-million more. There's a lot of energy in tires.
Changing World say that converting all of the US agricultural waste into oil and gas would yield the energy equivalent of US oil imports in 2001.
IF true... and that's a big IF, this technology may well represent a watershed event in the history of mankind. Waste to Energy. Wow.
-
Originally posted by Toad
Jeez..... you think they really did it?
its odd .. they arent supposed to be best in the world, isnt it
anyway thanks for link, interesting article
-
Originally posted by Toad
If it IS true...... Full Speed Ahead with Changing World Technologies.
I musta miscalulated. It's late.. niters.
No full speed...
It doesnt fit US market. If you will bring new technology, it will cause that money will transfer to diferent subject.
Since money rule your world, nobody want to lose his $$. So US policy is not to Full Speed Ahead, as you would like, but way of possible biggest profit, whitch will not cause major money shift between subjects.....
For example, how many people do work in Oil ind. over there.
Who run biggest oil bussines over there and whats their relation with those, who could cause "Full Speed Ahead ".
It will not be that easy to bring something that good over there.
I rather belive that turkey will be full of terrorist next year and it will need liberalization.....
or CIA could find hidden nukes in those fatories :D
-
We also have alot of people who work for the big Agricultural businesses.
Just replace Exxon with ADM or Monsato.
-
I am still holding out for a "Mr. Fussion" engine in my car like the one in the Deloreon from back to the future II....
:aok