Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: LLv34 Jarsci on May 20, 2004, 02:34:28 PM
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It´s time to get a hunting rifle for me. My father got a new puppy so I have to get a rifle to be ready when the beast emerges from the inside of that lovable furball (Norwegian gray or something in English).
Marlin 45-70 is one of my choices, but how good it is at elk hunting I don't know. Trajectories / hitting energies with ranges would be nice to know. Also theres a 444 , but would it be an overkill?
.308 would be cheapest to use, but theyre all around... also 9.3x62 would deliver a mighty punch , but the ammunition prices are ridiculous.
So is there anyone who has used/still uses 45-70 lever action rifle while hunting elk ? Tell me your experiences with the gun and its good and bad points.
Also heard that you have to make your own ammunition because all factory made ammos are made for older chambers which cannot withstand heavier loads.
And how about .375 winmag?
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My grandfather had a 45-70. Had a trajectory like a rainbow.
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I say go with SKS or AK47. :-):aok
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300 win mag will do what ya want.
She still holds alot of 1000 meter records so she shoots nice and flat.
Lots of reload data out there too.
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If Sakos are too expensive be a bad-ass and buy a Dragunov (http://www.snipercentral.com/svd.htm) or Vepr (http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/vepr.html).
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Originally posted by Staga
If Sakos are too expensive be a bad-ass and buy a Dragunov (http://www.snipercentral.com/svd.htm) or Vepr (http://www.ak-47.net/ak47/vepr.html).
Ok sniper rifle LOL.
But he was asking about a hunting rifle.
The dragonov simply would not have the killing power for an elk as Its made to kill people.
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Remington 700 is what I propose.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Remington 700 is what I propose.
Rem 700 is a model # what caliber?
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Here's .45-70 loaded by Remington:
45-70 Government (http://www.remington.com/NR/exeres/00001533lmugapxvplxbbblu/cf_new.asp?NRMODE=Published&cal=54&NRORIGINALURL=%2fammo%2fballistics%2fcenterfire%2fresults%2easp%3fcal%3d54&NRNODEGUID=%7bA9844B79-5526-4399-BA9E-F50A29C8B754%7d&NRQUERYTERMINATOR=1&cookie%5Ftest=1)
Here's Remington .444 Marlin ammo:
.444 Marlin (http://www.remington.com/ammo/ballistics/centerfire/comp_ballistics_results.asp)
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What are you hunting? What are the terrain characteristics? What is the typical range of a shot? What is the typical weight of the animal you're hunting?
Lots of questions here.
If you want a hunting rifle, you don't have to look any further than your own backyard. Tikka (http://www.tikka.fi/) and Sako (http://www.sako.fi/) make some of the finest hunting rifles in the world.
I wouldn't use a 45-70 for a hunting weapon. I wouldn't use a lever-action either. Sure they work and lots of animals have been taken with them. But they aren't the best tool for the job. The 45-70's ballestics are the greatest and a good bolt-action will always be more accurate than a great lever-gun (and I own two of them, a Win M71 and a Win 94). Plus, I wouldn't think that finding .45-70 ammo in Finland would be that easy.
If you're talking about taking animals ranging from deer to elk, any cartridge from 7mm-08 to .338 Win Mag would work well. If you can put the bullet where you need to and use premium bullets, .270's, .280's, 7mm Remington Mag's, .308 Win's, .30-06's, and your 9.3x62 would work fine.
If you're wanting something bigger, any one of the .300 Mags (I use a .300 H&H), a .35 Whelan (hard to find factory ammo for these), .338 Win Mag or .340 Weatherby would also work like a charm.
Anyways, when anyone comes to be with hunting rifle questions, I send them here: Accurate Reloading.com (http://www.accuratereloading.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php) I have never seen anyone not be able to find someone who can answer their questions. There' probably even some Finnish hunters (or people who have hunted there) on the board.
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I personally would pick a 30-06. I've shot this round exclusively for 18 years. Its a "jack of all trades" type of bullet. Good energy out thru 400 yard, relatively flat trajectory (not like a .223 or higher velocity round) but not bad. I use a bronze point, 180 grain round and typically sight in for 200 yards.
Never had a problem with animals not going down when hit with it.
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Hehe , here in Finland Elks (or moose , whatever , dont know the difference) ain´t the size of a rhino.. :)
308 is sufficient enough, but I usually go where the mainstream people doesn't ...
have to check out the prices of the ammunition first..
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Also heard that you have to make your own ammunition because all factory made ammos are made for older chambers which cannot withstand heavier loads.
This isn't true anymore. Most people who handload can make their cartridges run hotter. However I load my handloads to match what the factory loads. They are plenty fast enough. And, if you ever lose or forget your ammo at home, you can buy off the shelf ammo and not have to resight your rifle.
And any factory will show its ballistics on its website.
http://www.winchester.com/default.aspx
http://www.federalcartridge.com/default.asp?br=1
http://www.remington.com/ammo/ammofr.htm
PS, other rifles I would recommend are the Winchester M70, Ruger M77MkII and the Howa 1600/Weatherby Vanguard.
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Just sneak up on the dog with a bat if it gets unruly and save yourself some cash.;)
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Depends on the terrain, mostly. Long range shooting at small (distant) targets requires a high-velocity bullet with plenty of energy. At a minimum I'd use a very heavy .308 round. Prefered medicine being a .300 Weatherby Mag or a .338 Lapua Mag. 7mm Remington Mag works, but doesn't have enough energy for my tastes. Close-range stuff, less than 75 yards, just needs a ton of energy; velocity doesn't matter as much. 45-70 works great in this realm, especially in a lever gun.
If you're going for a quick-handling gun try to stick with either a BAR or a lever gun. Bolt actions can be fast, but only when you practice a LOT. Lever guns are somewhat quicker to cycle than a bolt gun, especially if you're in close quarters i.e. less than 25 yards. And don't laugh; Olympic mountain-range elk are regularly taken at under 25 yards! The Marlin company makes an outstanding 45-70 lever gun for a rather reasonable price. Stick a fast-action scout scope half-way down the rifle and you've got a snap-shooting king on your hands. The .45-70 does have a rather big trajectory, though. It'll go +- 4 inches above and below your sight line at some point. Considering the average 45-70 prints 2 inch groups, you can see a minor problem.
As for factory 45-70 shells not cutting it; that's bull. Federal .45-70 ammo clocks in at 1653 ft/sec with 1,820 ft/lbs of muzzle energy. This is for a 300 grain HP bullet. Remington's 300 grain JHP round clocks in at 1868 ft/sec with 2,324 ft-lbs of muzzle energy. Both will punch through 10 inches of wet newspaper without a problem and retain 80-100% of the bullet weight. It's a fairly devistating round to launch at anything.
If I were you, get the Marlin lever gun with a scout-scope installed. Between the muzzle and 100 yards you'll have a fast-handling elk rifle that sights quickly, cycles fast, and can launch a pretty hefty round. The gun (Marlin 1895G) runs around $650, with a Leupold M8 4x scope going for $250. I've heard a few things about the Burris scout scope, but nothing worth noting. The only person I know who still has one just says "it works". There's a Weaver-base scout-scope mount out there for the Marlin 1895 that runs around $60 or so.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
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Originally posted by Curval
Just sneak up on the dog with a bat if it gets unruly and save yourself some cash.;)
LOL here you see when a foreigner (me ) tries to ask something -->> people think Im gonna buy a rifle to whack the dog (OK i got the joke.. )
While browsing prices of ammunition and used guns, 308 and 30-06 , 9.3x62 are the best in Finland.
9.3 would kick arse , but it always comes to the fact that it you can use even .50 but if you can´t hit a ***** it doesn't help :)
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.308 would be your best bet i'd think. You can get heavy or light loads to suit what you're hunting :)
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I'd stay away from lever action rifles for hunting. lever action rifles use tubular magazines. tubular magazines limit you to round-nose bullets. round-nose rounds are not as stable in flight, bleed off energy faster, and the end result is a lot faster drop.
I'd go with a bolt action, and if you are loading your own rounds, a boat-tailed spire-point for projectiles.
.30-06 is a great all purpose round, hits hard enough for elk, not over-kill on deer.
.300 mag if you want a little more punch.
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
.30-06 is a great all purpose round, hits hard enough for elk, not over-kill on deer.
.300 mag if you want a little more punch.
Not a big fan of the ood 6 round for N American Elk.
They are pretty big critters man LOL.
Now the Win 300 mag you bet load her up with some 195 grn hornadys and have at it.
I have used my fathers 300 weatherby mag and you still have to hit em just right to get a first round kill.
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Oh and one more thing about lever action rifles.
the NOISE they make when you chamber a round:(
You just cant bet a bolt action rifle for acccuracy and reliability.
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I love my Mauser 8mm!
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Hmm how about FN FAL 308 win? (is it same as win mag? == > ammunition is strong enough legally )
if its ok , prices are about 600€ used.
with AIMPOINT it is quite sexy too ;)
Wouldn't believe that I have hunted small prey for ages but never had time or interest for heavier calibers, as it shows...
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Norwegian elk are what we call North American Moose.
curly
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Ive done quite bita hunting, 308 or 300 would be my choice, good for all around game. Also can reach out there and get them long shots. Good flat shooting gun.
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Originally posted by AKcurly
Norwegian elk are what we call North American Moose.
curly
Jeez If they are as big as a Moose than I would go for atleast a win 300 mag.
Anything smaller or weaker and you gonna be following a blood trail for a while LOL.
Just so you know all 30 cal rounds are 308 or 7.62 mm its the powder charge behind them that makes the difference.
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Originally posted by Modas
I personally would pick a 30-06. I've shot this round exclusively for 18 years. Its a "jack of all trades" type of bullet. Good energy out thru 400 yard, relatively flat trajectory (not like a .223 or higher velocity round) but not bad. I use a bronze point, 180 grain round and typically sight in for 200 yards.
Never had a problem with animals not going down when hit with it.
Good advice. I hunt elk (regular old Colorado elk) with this load every year. If you have to take a shot over 300 yds ya need to be getting closer :)
h
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http://www.onpoi.net/ah/picpopup.php?ImgId=6700
If you like lever actions, here's a nice one in either 7mm WSM (Winchester Short Magnum), or .300 Win Magnum. This rifle has a detachable magazine, geared bolt with a rotating lug to make it strong as a bolt action.
High quality for a lever rifle and good looking too. It has a nice wood to metal workmanship.
Les
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It is impossible to hunt with a rifle, crossbow or bow and arrow.
If you have to kill something (which I find distasteful) then grab a knife and do it, stalk your quarry and fight it and maybe even put your self at risk of injury.
Makes me laugh when people talk about hunting with a rifle
wipass
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You can find a Remington 700 in pretty much any caliber if you look hard enough.
But .308 and .300 win mag are the most common.
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Looks like these guys are using .308.
Great video GS. Thanks. Norwegians know how to throw a good hunt!
:cool:
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Well...I wasn't going to poke fun at your local traditions, even tho I thought it was really out there. :D
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M60 with multiple rocket launcher.
That will learn em rabbits.
:rolleyes:
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Depends on what you are hunting and where you hunt.
In open territory I would have to go with the REMINGTON Model 700 Bolt Action. One of the most accurate hunting rifles there is. 7mm Mag. or if your hunting Moose - go with the .300 mag. Price for ammo will kill you though.
If you are hunting in heavily wooded territory where ranges are short you can't beat one of the SKS or AKM rifles. the 7.62x39 bullet (same as .308) has alot of stopping power. They are dirt cheap and nearly indestructable. Both hunting ammo SP & HP and SMJ for target practice can be got for almost nothing.
You will have to buy a 5 round clip for it as most places it is against the law to hunt with a rifle that will carry more than 5 shots.
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Originally posted by wipass
It is impossible to hunt with a rifle, crossbow or bow and arrow.
If you have to kill something (which I find distasteful) then grab a knife and do it, stalk your quarry and fight it and maybe even put your self at risk of injury.
Makes me laugh when people talk about hunting with a rifle
wipass
I know this an OBVIOUS troll but I just can't help myself. :rolleyes:
You obviously haven't been in the woods lately have you Wipass?
You should get out from behind the computer screen aand try it - might make a new person out of you. Don't believe all that CRAP PETA and that crowd spews - it's not as easy as it appears.
Get out and track them and you will see this. I will agree with you many abuse the sport but there are many that don't kill stuff unless they are going to EAT IT. If I kill something he goes in the freezer!
BTW - you CAN "hunt" with a bow. I have killed 4 Deer with them (one was even with an English Longbow!). One I tracked all day into a Pine Grove and hit him at 90 yards. Damn sure seemed like "Hunting" to me. I didn't set in a tree waiting for him to come by.
If you are ever in Arkansas look me up and I will show you the difference between "Hunting" and "Shooting." You act right and I might also show you how to fish useing Dynamite. :D
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Things seem to be getting a little sidetracked....
I have found that in Finland .308 is used, next is 30-06 and 9.3x62 is gaining ground fast. I think I go to 9.3 or 308.
308 has inexpensive ammo
9.3 has good stopping power.
Check out Tikka T3, thats what I think I'll get.
Prices are ridiculous thought (780€)
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Jester, you're way off on that one. 7.62x39 is otherwise known as 7.62 intermediate, while .308 is 7.62x51; a much larger round. The velocity and energy differences are pretty big too. 2200 ft/sec with 1612 ft-lbs muzzle energy for the 7.62x39 versus 2820 ft/sec and 2684 ft-lbs muzzle energy for the .308. Both using a 150 grain spire-point bullet. Given the choice, I'd prefer the .308; an extra half-ton of muzzle energy and 400fps faster.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
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Advice from a bowhunter:
Get the gun that has the most :
1. Rate of fire
2. Muzzle velocity
3. Stopping power
Get the most lead out as far away as fast as you can.
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jester, it's not a troll
I'm a veggie,
can't see the fun in killing somehow
wipass
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Even plants are living things. You just commit vegiecide.
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Ive heard that a 308 will tend to shock the meat alot more than a 30 06 will. With the advantage going to the 30 06 in varying rounds available.
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I'm a veggie
How ironic! So was the steak I ate last night! :lol
Actually, to each his own. I'm sure you have your reasons.
If you have to kill something (which I find distasteful) then grab a knife and do it, stalk your quarry and fight it and maybe even put your self at risk of injury.
I stabbed a mouse last year with a knife. Was sitting in my mouse-infested tent when one happened to get close enough and I happened to get lucky. Looking back on it, I could have cut myself badly or been bitten, but what a rush! From now on I'm only hunting with Ninja weapons.
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Ive heard that a 308 will tend to shock the meat alot more than a 30 06 will.
Really? Why? Not following...
:confused:
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I think the reverse might be true on that one, Ping. The 30-06 (7.62x63) is a touch faster with a hair more energy than any .308 round. The amount of shock damage between the two would probably vary more based on bullet type than which caliber you used.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
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Jester,
You're from St. Charles, Arkansas? Sho nuff? I'm originally from Dermott. Living in Monticello now.
LLv34...if price is no object...and if EYE were looking for a new rifle I would find a competent gunsmith to build the following...
Purchase a Ruger #1 or similar single-shot, falling-block action. Purchase one of those beautiful barrels that Mannlicher puts on their rifles and carbines...the hammer-forged ones where the hammer marks have been left on the exterior of the barrel, jeweled and blued. Attach a nice, elegant, two-piece French walnut stock with 24 line per inch checkering. Drill and tap for scope, if you want, or have the gunsmith put a nice, macho, set of iron sights on it. Sling and rings.
As to caliber...your preference. Personally, I like the 6.5x55 Swedish shooting a 140 grain Nosler partition.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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I've heard the falling block action is the strongest action there is. When hunting large game, if you need more than one shot, you probably missed anyway.
Les
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Originally posted by VOR
How ironic! So was the steak I ate last night! :lol
Actually, to each his own. I'm sure you have your reasons.
I stabbed a mouse last year with a knife. Was sitting in my mouse-infested tent when one happened to get close enough and I happened to get lucky. Looking back on it, I could have cut myself badly or been bitten, but what a rush! From now on I'm only hunting with Ninja weapons.
Noooo thanks!!! Not for me. Knives are too dangerous for the casual user.
One time I was about to sharpen my Rapala filet knife after a successful fishing trip. I was in my house alone, thank God, because I had been drinking a bit, and when I pulled the knife out of the sheath, it came out so fast I lost my grip on it and it just disappeared.
I looked all over the floor. Not there. I thought it had vanished into thin air, and was starting to get concerned when I went into the kitchen.
Then I saw it. It had come out of the sheath and flown the entire length of the house, about 30 feet, and stuck in the window shade roller above the back door. :eek: That's why it was so hard to find.
Now, if I could only learn to do that at will...I "would" be a ninja.:D
Les
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Originally posted by flakbait
Jester, you're way off on that one. 7.62x39 is otherwise known as 7.62 intermediate, while .308 is 7.62x51; a much larger round. The velocity and energy differences are pretty big too. 2200 ft/sec with 1612 ft-lbs muzzle energy for the 7.62x39 versus 2820 ft/sec and 2684 ft-lbs muzzle energy for the .308. Both using a 150 grain spire-point bullet. Given the choice, I'd prefer the .308; an extra half-ton of muzzle energy and 400fps faster.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
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My mistake Flakbait, I wasn't clear. I ment the "bullet" is the same size - not the whole round. The Russian round is 39 while the NATO round is 51 in length.
Still where range isn't an issue - it's more than big enough to hunt with. If you need something bigger you better make DAMN SURE it isn't hunting YOU. :D
Hey SHUCKINS! !
Yep, it's Arkansas. WOOOOO PIG SOOOIE!
You ever make it through here look me up. I can usually be found at the Fire Dept.
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Originally posted by wipass
jester, it's not a troll
I'm a veggie,
can't see the fun in killing somehow
wipass
Sorry, where we come from we didn't fight our way to the top of the food chain to eat grass. ;)
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Thats not food, that's what food eats.
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People i can kill a moose with a 22 rimfire too!
If I ram the barrell up his butt and pull the trigger he will die at some point he will bleed to death internally.
The point i was trying to make by saying i like the Win 300 mag or the weatherby 300 mag is you stand a much greater chance of scoring a first shot kill at ranges up to 600- yds .
And I am sorry i would not risk my hunt on that range with a 308 LOL .
It takes massive shock and trauma to kill a 1500lb animal it aint like shooting a human LOL we die easy.
I will give you an example I shot a bobcat at 800+ yds with a win 300 mag using 190grn speer bulletts.
Hit the thing in front of the right hip joint passing thrue without hitting bone.
you know what there was a nice little hole about 20mm wide on the exite side.
PS I had to track the dam thing.
So think about a MOOSE:eek:
The moral of the story is when hunting large game bigger +faster is better.
The ammo is exspensive but if you really want a bad arse flat shooting rifle?
Weatherby 300 mag is the way to go .
LOL dont believe me check out the ballistics.
Outside of the 338 lapua she is one tough biotch.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The moose is a woodland animal and it is very shy. You won't get a 600 yard shot. More like 100-200 yards max.
Really? Been to Cananda hunting lately have you? LOL.
Well my Father shot one at 600yds so I tend to go on what he told me.
And having seen the old fart shoot Mule Deer in Colorado at up to 800+ yds I tend to believe him.
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Originally posted by GScholz
The moose is a woodland animal and it is very shy. You won't get a 600 yard shot. More like 100-200 yards max.
And you will find them in marshy type lands as well.
Hell even seen em wandering thru towns LOL.
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I've hunted plenty with a 45-70. Although it is a Ruger #1 and also a Ruger #3. Both of these actions are super strong. One of the strongest single shot actions built today. With it being as strong as it is, you can load the piss out of it and it will hold together with out a problem. Marlins lever actions are also strong for the most part. So if you do reload you can load up some nice hot rnds and still have no problems. With the 45-70 being a low presure crtg, there are few problems you will encounter if you reload for it. If you dont like single shots then go with the marlin.
Either of the two, the 45-70 govt or the 444 Marlin are fine choices given the right shots. If you get shots beyond 150 yards I would start thinking of something a little more flat shooting. Lets not forget now guys, the 308 has killed every animal on the planet. So it should not be underestemated. I've had a friend of mine go on a hunt in canada for Caribou and took two of them at 400+ yards with a 308. If you want any more knock down power than a 308, then I would go with my all time favorite the 338 Win Mag.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Marlins lever actions are also strong for the most part. So if you do reload you can load up some nice hot rnds and still have no problems.
you still end up with a lot of drag and instability due to the limited selection of projectile shapes acceptable for a lever action riffle. you're still limitted to variations on a round-nose bullet.
even if loaded with the same powdercharge and projectile weight, you will be able to get better performance from a bolt-action riffle
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Originally posted by capt. apathy
you still end up with a lot of drag and instability due to the limited selection of projectile shapes acceptable for a lever action riffle. you're still limitted to variations on a round-nose bullet.
This is true very hard to find boat tail bulletts for lever action types.
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Jarski perkele! Älä ees kattele ulkomaille! Suomessa tehdään maailman parhaita aseita!!!!
http://www.sako.fi/ (http://www.sako.fi/)
http://www.tikka.fi/ (http://www.tikka.fi/)
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Lets not forget now guys, the 308 has killed every animal on the planet.
Ok you be the fool standing in front of the charging rhino with you 308 and I will have my 460 weatherby magnum:D
Look I spent 4 years lugging around the 308 nato XM 21 weapons system I know what the 308 can and cant do.
And it cant take all game in the world LOL hell It cant even take everything in north America for crips sake.
One of the last weapons i would want on a kodiak hunt would be a 308 LOL.
Unless I was just wanting to really piss off the bear enough to have a good fight on my hands LOL.
The 308 Is a great weapon for shooting people sized animale up 800meters.
But most clean kills where made at less than 700meters.
Now you have to understand that wild animals are just a little tougher than you and me LOL.
Plus the animale in quesstion is very much bigger aound 1000-1500 lbs
Understand that all of your common 30 caliber rounds are 308 in diameter there fore 308.
Its the lenght of the round that makes up the additional weight and mass.
I would have to pull some reloading data but the difference between the nato 308 x52 and the weatherby 300magnum are HUGE in not only muzzle veolocity but in ft lbs of energy.
Night and day .
And at distances at and beyound 500 yds it multiplys like a MOFO.
Can you kill a moose with a 308 yes
Ofcoures you can.
But can you do it in a sporting humaine way with quick death?
NO Unless you are lucky enough to hit him in the heart or brain at a fairly short distance.
I when hunting prefere to engage my prey at longer distances to make it more sporting to me and the animal.
But I never take a shot I dont feel I can Kill him with.
Sorry Morph did not mean to pick on your post but i can quaranty the 308 as in 308 nato will NOT kill any animal on the planet.
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Originally posted by txmx
the 308 will NOT kill any animal on the planet.
Mosquitos are especially tough.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Oh no ... here he goes on about hunting people again. *sigh*
Well smart arse define witch 308 are we really talking about?
There are about 30 or 40 different ones you know .
Theres the 308 nato round.
theres the 308 Norma magnun and ect ect.
See if you can add something besides silly outdated smartarsed remarks.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Mosquitoes are especially tough.
For Mosquitoes I prefere to use the dixie straw and well chewed paper from the dallas moring news.
In grade school I was so good with the spit wade shooter I would dot the eyes of the letters when the teacher was writing on the chaulk boards.
LOL yeppers a sniper even back then:rofl
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In my knowledge, 308 is the most used caliber in Finland for moosehunting.
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Originally posted by mipoikel
In my knowledge, 308 is the most used caliber in Finland for moosehunting.
OK hey we go again LOL 308 is every 30 caliber .
Measure any bullett weather its a 30-30 or a 30-06 and it will be you got it 308
Now this is more what you might want for a good hunting rig.
Winchester leredo 300 magnum w/ 40x tasco custom shop scope.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/481_1085302123_win003.jpg)
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Originally posted by GScholz
No, every .30 cal is not necessarily .308 inch.
We are obviously talking about the .308 NATO/Winchester round.
Yes. This is what I meant . 7.62x51mm NATO (.308 Win)
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With all this chat about .308, I happened to notice that he was from finland. Personally I think a good hunting rig for him would be a Mosin-Nagant action in 7.62x54r (the other russian 7.62). Surplus Mosins can be had for about 100 USD, and 200 grain 7.62x54r soft points can be found for about 25 USD. You would only want to feed the 200 grain round through a 91/30 or a Sako M-39 though. M-39's and M-44's are only accurate with 146-148 grain bullets. The accuracy on the Mosins are pretty incredible and it is a highly underrated gun. I took 4 deer last year with my 91/30, and my only problem was over penetration. If I overpenetrate a deer with that, elk shouldn't be too much of a problem.
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Well, I probably take used rifle over a new one, because good used is almost as good as new, and the price is much more userfriendly.
But if I decide to go and buy a new one, Tikka T3 Battue lite will be my choice.
Short barreled--> easy to travel with it. Also faster aiming and the ranges will be between 30-250 m it is accurate enough. Maybe installing aimpoint on it. It costs 780€ 308 or 9.3x62.
9.3 shots are at least twice the price of 308 ammunition... one training shot costs 1.2€ for 9.3mm and for 308 its about 60 cents when bought in batches of 100 shots. Hunting shot for 9.3 is about 1.8 € per piece and for 308 its about 1 €.
Gonna think about this for a while. But I have time, hunting starts in October... :)
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Originally posted by Jester
My mistake Flakbait, I wasn't clear. I ment the "bullet" is the same size - not the whole round. The Russian round is 39 while the NATO round is 51 in length.
Still where range isn't an issue - it's more than big enough to hunt with. If you need something bigger you better make DAMN SURE it isn't hunting YOU. :D
No problem, just be a tad more clear when talking calibers. I thought you might have meant the bullet diameter was the same, but I wasn't entirely sure; hence my post. As for the 7.62x39, it can be a dandy hunting round for deer or other light/medium weight game out to 300 yards or so. For something as big as elk/moose you can forget it; the x39 doesn't have enough energy for a hard hit. Anytime you start talking about trying to drop a thousand-pound-plus critter you go into magnum rifle territory. Minimum muzzle energy figures to drop something that big are at least 2,000 ft-lbs, preferably with a heavy-weight bullet.
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
(http://www.wa-net.com/~delta6/sig/veggie.gif)
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First off, a 45-70 should be limited to shots of under 200 yards. With factory ammunition, less than that, more like 150 yards. Longer shots can be successfully taken. However, not everyone is an expert marksman and able to make such shots with hair in the sights under hunting conditions.
The object of the excercise is to take the animal as quickly and humanely as possible with one shot.
The .308 Winchester, AKA 7.62 NATO, is only about 10% less powerful than the .30-06 Springfield, whether factory loads or handloads are used. Used properly, it is quite capable of taking anything in North America, although not ideal by any stretch, and neither is the .30-06.
As far as an all around cartridge/rifle combination that will take any animal you are likely to hunt, save African dangerous game which really requires special weapons and hunting techniques that are NOT the same as 90% of the other hunting in the world, I'd say the 300 Winchester Magnum in a Winchester Model 70 bolt action rifle with a 24"-26" barrel.
I have one, although it is actually a Model 770. The .300 Winchester Magnum can be easily and inexpensively handloaded from the .30-.30 Winchester power level all the way up to my favorite all around load, which is a maximum load for the .300 Winchester Magnum.
My hunting load, which has taken everything from the common groundhog at 400 yards to large Elk at 450 yards, is a Sierra Matchking 168 grain hollow point boat tail spitzer at just over 3250 feet per second. I will not publish the "recipe" for that load for obvious reasons. It is safe and shows no pressure signs IN MY RIFLE. It shoots extremely flat and hits extremely hard. It is also a common load for 1000 yard benchrest shooting in limited classes where you must shoot a production rifle with only a rebarrel and action job allowed and use a production cartridge as opposed to a wildcat.
Shot placement is a requirement for the use of that bullet since it won't smash through massive amounts of bone at long ranges, it is after all a medium weight bullet. Recoil is very manageable with that bullet and load, although it is by no means a mild kicker. It is manageable in that you can shoot 20 to 40 rounds in a session to verify that both you and the rifle are ready to go. It is manageable in that it will not detract from accuracy for the experienced rifle marksman.
You can use heavier bullets, but accuracy simply won't be as good, nor will trajectory be as flat. Since most hunters do not carry rangefinders and shoot their game on flat terrain with zero wind, accuracy and flat trajectory combined with a short flight time due to high speed which cuts down on wind drift are big advantages. Heavier bullets will smash through bone and penetrate deeper on poorly placed shots, but not without the price of less accuracy, less speed, higher trajectory, and longer flight times. Not to mention substantial increases in recoil.
If I had to pick one rifle, to hunt as much game as possible with the best chance of success, a rifle like mine would be the choice. I can easily take ANY North American large game with my rifle and load.
Were I building a new one, and I may, I'd build it like this:
Winchester Model 70 Classic with controlled round feed.
Shilen, Douglas, or Hart 26" semi sporter profile barrel with gain twist rifling.
Simmons 6x24x50 scope.
Action job, glass bedding, and free floated barrel.
And I'd use something very close to my current pet load, adjusted for the rifle's preference.
There are more expensive rifles, barrels, and scopes available, but 999 out of 1000 shooters couldn't shoot/tell the difference on a bet.
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Do yourself a BIG favor if you intend to hunt and shoot often. Get an affordable reloading press (An RCBS Partner kit is plenty good enough) and the dies, shell holder, and manuals to go with it. If you shoot often, and especially if factroy loaded ammunition is expensive and hard to find, that simple little kit (it also includes a scale, a powder funnel, a primer tray, a case lube pad, case lube, and a manual) will save you more than you paid for it VERY quickly. It will allow you to find what shoots best for you and your rifle. It will allow you to have that ammo in good supply, any time you want it. It will allow you to shoot for about 30% the cost of factory ammuntion.
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Sorry Morph did not mean to pick on your post but i can quaranty the 308 as in 308 nato will NOT kill any animal on the planet.
Weak minded troll... If you beleive that you know nothing of guns. I've been doing this all my live. Hunting since I was 12 years old and before that in the woods with my father. I know what the 308 Winchester can do. Your insane if you beleive your last statment.
Pick on me all you want. I dont look at it that way. I work in the gun bisiness. I am asked questions ever single day as to why I think this that or the other thing... I know what works well and I know what works better. Why? Because I've used it. The 308 Win is nothing more than a shorter and fatter 30-06 Springfield. Making it shorter and fater and changing the neck of the case also makes it one of the most efficient rounds out there.
When I said the 308 has killed everything on the Planet I mean JUST that.
NO Unless you are lucky enough to hit him in the heart or brain at a fairly short distance.
I look and see how you talk about being a hunter, but you speak like that of someone who has no idea what hes talking about. Sure you know your calibers. But that doesn't mean squad.
AND you are comparing apples to oranges when you are talking about the 460 WM. Christ man. He's not going on an afican dangerous game hunt.
You can hit a White Tail deer in the gut with a 460. Its still going to run its heart out. How "sportsman like" is that? Its about shot placement. Not about the size of the bullet and how fast and hard it hits. It stays that way until it you start to talk about dangerous game.
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Originally posted by txmx
OK hey we go again LOL 308 is every 30 caliber .
Measure any bullett weather its a 30-30 or a 30-06 and it will be you got it 308
Now this is more what you might want for a good hunting rig.
Winchester leredo 300 magnum w/ 40x tasco custom shop scope.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/481_1085302123_win003.jpg)
LOL:rofl
Is there a place to send trollers?
Why on gods green earth would you want to lug that heavy azzz beast through woods or anywhere else?
Thats no hunting rifle. Surely not by american standards nor anyone elses.
Btw, 30 cal can be .307, .308, .303... I can go on and on and on... So not every 30 caliber bullet is of .308 dia.
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The .308 Winchester is actually less than 10% lower in power than the .30-06 Springfield as I stated above. In all honesty, it is capable of killing any animal on the planet. It may not be the ideal choice for a particular hunt, but it can take any animal.
Realize that rather large (read HUGE) bull elephants have been killed while charging WITH A 44 MAGNUM REVOLVER. Much as I dearly love my Dan Wesson 44 Magnum, even with my hottest loads (and I've got some redline stuff in my bag right now) it ain't as powerful as a 30-30, nevermind a .308 .
That being said, a .308 Winchester is NOT the round I'd choose to hunt Elk or Moose with. However, also realize that Jack O'Connor, editor of Outdoor Life magazine, and probably one of the top big game hunters of the last century, killed about 90% of all of the animals he shot with a .270, which is a necked down .30-06. That means he took at least one or more of each of around 90% of all game animals on the planet with a .270 Winchester, which is NOT as powerful as a .308 Winchester.
Large caliber dangerous game rifles are of absolutely no use to 9999 out of every 10,000 hunters on the planet. Truthfully, less than 0.1% of all hunters have any need for anything larger than a .300 Winchester Magnum. If it ain't in Africa and it ain't true dangerous game, and you can't easily kill it with one shot from a .308 Winchester, you need to learn to shoot, or you need to stay in the camp with the ladies (the ones that DON'T hunt, the ones that DO hunt can likely out shoot you). That does not mean that the .308 is the choice for staring down the charge of a wounded large bear, or dangerous African game. But 9999 out of 10,000 hunters will never face such a situation in a lifetime.
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Morph, you'd be surprised how light and easy to carry my Model 770 .300 Winchester Magnum is, despite a 24" barrel, blonde walnut stock, Simmons scope, and Harris Lightweight bipod.
I carried it effortlessly all over the Smokies a couple of years ago hunting bear. In fact, on the last day, I carried it, a canteen, my lunch in a waste pack, my Dan Wesson in a Galco Jackprettythang Big Game holster with two extra speedloaders, for half the day one end of a 400# black bear, in Joyce Kilmer Park in North Carolina. I carry my Dan Wesson or my Ruger on those hunts for close shots at deer or wild boar. I prefer my revolvers to rifles at close range for fast work on deer and boar.
If I had wanted to carry ONE gun for that hunt, I'd have gotten a 45-70 lever gun. I may get one.
(edited, as I forgot the board censor would tag the brand name of my shoulder holster)
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Originally posted by LLv34 Jarsci
Hehe , here in Finland Elks (or moose , whatever , dont know the difference) ain´t the size of a rhino.. :)
308 is sufficient enough, but I usually go where the mainstream people doesn't ...
have to check out the prices of the ammunition first..
Please take the time to learn before you go! Unless you want to get your self in a heck of a lot of trouble.
Most folks in Alaska use 308 to 30-06 sized for moose.
Of the hundreds of moose that I've stumbles across in Alaska (hiking, skiing, etc.), most were within 100 yards. These guns have plenty of E to kill at that range.
eskimo
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Morph, you'd be surprised how light and easy to carry my Model 770 .300 Winchester Magnum is, despite a 24" barrel, blonde walnut stock, Simmons scope, and Harris Lightweight bipod.
I have several larger rifles. Two winchetster mod70's. One is in 338 win mag and the other is in 375 H&H. the 375 has a 24"bbl and the 338 is 26. I hunted with the 338 in montana for a long time. Its fine when you walking tundra, but if you get into thick timber its just a pain in the ass.
What Tmx has is in no way a "hunting" rifle of traditional standards. Not for elk and not meant to be carried for miles upon miles tracking game.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
What Tmx has is in no way a "hunting" rifle of traditional standards. Not for elk and not meant to be carried for miles upon miles tracking game.
It is a sniper rifle.
there fore it is for hunting "men of coures"
And yes i have carried over many miles of Colorado mountains around Pagosa Springs on Elk hunts.
It weights a bit more than your standard hunting rifle about 15lbs but that adds to it stability and with the muzzle break recoil is like a 223.
It is one hell of a 1000 meter gun.
So yes with the proper sling you can carry it around all day with no trouble at all.
And for the dude above saying hey you can kill a bull elephant with a 44 mag LOL .
Again Im sure you can if you ram it up his arse or hit him in the eye socket :rofl
Never been to africa but my father and uncles have and they where all very glad they where using 577 nitro exspess .
LOL 44 mag LOL you guys are killing me stop it please.
:rofl
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Weak minded troll... If you beleive that you know nothing of guns. I've been doing this all my live. Hunting since I was 12 years old and before that in the woods with my father. I know what the 308 Winchester can do. Your insane if you beleive your last statment.
Pick on me all you want. I dont look at it that way. I work in the gun bisiness. I am asked questions ever single day as to why I think this that or the other thing... I know what works well and I know what works better. Why? Because I've used it. The 308 Win is nothing more than a shorter and fatter 30-06 Springfield. Making it shorter and fater and changing the neck of the case also makes it one of the most efficient rounds out there.
When I said the 308 has killed everything on the Planet I mean JUST that.
I look and see how you talk about being a hunter, but you speak like that of someone who has no idea what hes talking about. Sure you know your calibers. But that doesn't mean squad.
AND you are comparing apples to oranges when you are talking about the 460 WM. Christ man. He's not going on an afican dangerous game hunt.
You can hit a White Tail deer in the gut with a 460. Its still going to run its heart out. How "sportsman like" is that? Its about shot placement. Not about the size of the bullet and how fast and hard it hits. It stays that way until it you start to talk about dangerous game.
LOL ok then you must really know more than me then
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/481_1083875944_rangecopy.jpg)
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LOL belive me or not I know alot about what the nato 7.62 aka 308 round will and will not do.
Having been trained in that weaon system
and having used it over the years.
Any weapon will kill any animal .
Hell If you pump enough 223 s into an elephant he will bleed to death at some point.
I am talking about a first shot kill where he drops to the ground when shot.
And a 308 aint gonna do it sorry.
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LOL OK bud you take your 15lb "sniper rifle" and I'll take my 4 3/4lb Dakota Arms mountain rifle. (Slams the watermelon out of you but if you want low recoil stick to your 15lb guns and stay out of the woods) I've taken 3 bull elk with the 308 at well over 250yrds with it. ALL 1 SHOT KILLS. Its about shot placement with non-dangerous game. With dangerous game you want to factor in a high energy hard hitting round.
And how many "man hunts" have you been on? I mean really? lol
Thats a range gun simple as that. At best you truck it out and sit with it all day in the prone atop a mountain.
This is what 4 days of back packing and tracking in bad weather with a ultra light Dakota in 308 can get you. (Thats my idea of a hunt)
(http://img51.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/1-14-03.jpg)
I took this bull in Wolf Creek Montana on our land 3 years ago. It hangs in one of our stores now.
ITS ABOUT SHOT PLACEMENT. What more do I need to say to get that across?
I know farmers out there which all they use for elk is a ratty old 30-30 Winchester. They take 100 yrd shots nearly every year with no problem. How can they do this and get away with it? They hit the thing in the right place.
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Hell If you pump enough 223 s into an elephant he will bleed to death at some point.
Whos going on an Elephant hunt?
I thought we were talking about a gun to hunt Elk.. no?
And 223 Rem was never brought up. Not by me.
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Was on an antelope hunt and one fellow from the South shows up with a .375 H&H.
It worked. He got a one shot kill on an average buck at about 250 yards; right through both shoulders. Of course, he discarded the two front quarters.
The rest of us had .243's and 6mm's. We all got our antelope too. But we got to use all of the meat.
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Maybe a little history on the 308 winchester round is needed.
After ww1 US ordanance begane looking for a replacement for the 30-06 springfield.
well LOL by 1944 engineers at Frankford arsonal had begun to mess with the 300 savage case desiganted as 30T65 performance was about equal to the 30-06.
After many test and revisions it was designated the T65E3 and was adopted by NATO on 12-15-1953
The US embraced the 7.62mm NATO cartridge in two new weapons the M14 rifle and th M60 machinegun.
Around that time winchester introduced the cartridge to the public as the 308.
There ya have some hisory LOL.
Now the following is right out of the Seirra roloading manuel
And I quote:
the 308 has become quite popular as a hunting cartridge and is adequate for "most" N American big game species, particularly deer-sized game.
Though frequently compared to it the 308 cannot match the performance of the 30-06.
The difference between the two how ever is insignificant unless bulletts 180 grains or heaveirs are discussed.
The 30-06's greater capacity and ability to use slower burning powders give it and undeniable edge.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
And how many "man hunts" have you been on? I mean really? lol
Thats a range gun simple as that. At best you truck it out and sit with it all day in the prone atop a mountain.
Well for quesstion one : It's what I trained to do .
Quesstion two: I lugged a Xm-21 on 18 mile road marches and on countless field ops so I guess It dont bother me much.
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Just food for thought as well
Energy as in Ft/lbs for the 190 grn HPBT
308 2.851@2.600Ft per sec
Now for the win300 mag 190grn HPBT
3.797 @3.000 ft per sec
I think you can see witch one packs more of a punch.
Oh and with the 300 win mag you can go up to 240 grn bulletts too and get 4.179
Ft/lbs of energy !
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The rest of us had .243's and 6mm's. We all got our antelope too. But we got to use all of the meat.
There ya go;)
Tmx now you are comparing the 308 to the '06. First it was between some of the most powerful prod calibers in the world such as the 460WM.
It doesnt take a rocket scientist to open up a reloading manual and look at the balistics between the two. The 308 and the '06 that is. With the same powders and the same 180gr bullet the 308 is 20 fps slower than the '06. (That was taken from the SPEER reloading manual.) That comparison used IMRs 4320. A mid range burning powder.
Do you honestly beleive that what you shoot will be able to tell the difference between 20 feet per second?
NOW FOR THE KICKER!
When you slug a 200gr bullet in both the '06 and the 308, the 308 will out perform the '06.
Here is one simple comparison of the data.
Using IMR 4895. (Fast Burning)
308 Win.
40 Grns of 4895
MV of 2366fps
30-06
45 grns of 4895
MV of 2333fps.
My point is that the 308 can be loaded to do anythig the '06 can. Its a two way street mind you. If you take other powders with different burn rates the 06 will out do the 308. Basicly the 308 with its shorter fatter case likes faster hotter burning powders than '06 does.
This isn't anything new when it comes to arguing about the two calibers and as to which is the better one of the two. I have guns in both the 06 and 308, Neither are among my favorite calibers. But when you need to get the job done, and not have to worry about finding ammo when you are on a hunt away from home they are the way to go.
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Originally posted by txmx
Just food for thought as well
Energy as in Ft/lbs for the 190 grn HPBT
308 2.851@2.600Ft per sec
Now for the win300 mag 190grn HPBT
3.797 @3.000 ft per sec
I think you can see witch one packs more of a punch.
Oh and with the 300 win mag you can go up to 240 grn bulletts too and get 4.179
Ft/lbs of energy !
You CAN'T compare apples to oranges my friend.
A belted magnum to a 308.... Well duh!
The 300wm better dam well out do the 308. Why are you going off on all sorts of calibers and comparisons of such? You cant compare the two. They are two entirely different rounds. They SHOULDNT match up to each other.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Btw, 30 cal can be .307, .308, .303... I can go on and on and on... So not every 30 caliber bullet is of .308 dia.
Here is just a short list of the 30 cal rounds that are 308 in diameter.
30 BR Remington=308 dia
30-30 winchester=308 dia
30-40 Krag=308 dia
300 savage=308 dia
30-06=308 dia
300 remingtom= 308 dia
300 winchester mag=308 dia
300 H&H mag=308 dia
30-338=380 dia
308 Norma= 308 dia
300 weatherby mag=308 dia
30-378 weatherby mag=308 dia
I can go on and on but I am now bored and have writers cramp.
But you see a pattern here
:D
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
You CAN'T compare apples to oranges my friend.
A belted magnum to a 308.... Well duh!
The 300wm better dam well out do the 308. Why are you going off on all sorts of calibers and comparisons of such? You cant compare the two. They are two entirely different rounds. They SHOULDNT match up to each other.
Would you like me to find a none belted round?
The point i am making is the 308 nato aint all that and a box of chips.
It aint bad but it is far from the best hunting round.
If you had to strictly rely on shot placement Hell I would take a 270 over a 308 anyday .
Faster flatter and if ya hit him right just as dead.
But not everybody hit's em just right the first time around You know a little Buck fever get them.
I like having the edge and a little extra powder pushing a bigger bullett never hurts.
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308 Win w/200gr bullet @ 2400 pfs
460 Weatherby Mag w/500gr bullet @ 2650 fps.
Well watermelon guys. I dont know about you but Im going out and getting me one of these 460WMs for my next elk rifle. Screw shot placement. And at $60 bucks a box we can shoot it all day. And the recoil will be unlike anything you've ever felt but who cares!
I say Winchester, Kimber, Remington, Savage ect all ditch all of their lines and produce 460s and 300mags. This way you can have 1 gun that will destroy anything it hits.
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Better yet we can just call in a C-130 Gunship LOL.
Fire up the grill Honey I'm bringin home the steaks.:aok
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It aint bad but it is far from the best hunting round.
You cannot define the "best hunting round". Its imposible. One day you are hunting for white tail and the next you are on a hunt in alaska for brown bear. So what? You want to start shooting everything you hunt with belted mags? Each gun has its own purpose. Thats why I have many. Same with handguns.
If you had to strictly rely on shot placement Hell I would take a 270 over a 308 anyday .Faster flatter and if ya hit him right just as dead.
OMG now you are back tracking and saying the same dam thing I was trying to say aout 10 posts ago!
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT I WAS SAYING? ABOUT A LITTLE FACTOR CALLED "SHOT PLACEMENT"???
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
I say Winchester, Kimber, Remington, Savage ect all ditch all of their lines and produce 460s and 300mags. This way you can have 1 gun that will destroy anything it hits.
If your shooting anything bigger than a mule deer ! then yeah .
I would use a 308 on a mulie A 308 norma I have used a few times.
But On something like a moose and IF I could not engage any closer than 500yds than I would want atleast a winn 300 mag.
00-200 yds well watermelon just bout any 30 cal with the right load should do the trick.
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Originally posted by txmx
Here is just a short list of the 30 cal rounds that are 308 in diameter.
30 BR Remington=308 dia
30-30 winchester=308 dia
30-40 Krag=308 dia
300 savage=308 dia
30-06=308 dia
300 remingtom= 308 dia
300 winchester mag=308 dia
300 H&H mag=308 dia
30-338=380 dia
308 Norma= 308 dia
300 weatherby mag=308 dia
30-378 weatherby mag=308 dia
I can go on and on but I am now bored and have writers cramp.
But you see a pattern here
:D
And our point is?
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But On something like a moose and IF I could not engage any closer than 500yds than I would want atleast a winn 300 mag.
Did you read a word of what I wrote? I mean really read it all??
Here let me help you out so you dont have to dig too deaply.
Posted by me, 6 or 7 posts ago.
Either of the two, the 45-70 govt or the 444 Marlin are fine choices given the right shots. If you get shots beyond 150 yards I would start thinking of something a little more flat shooting
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
You cannot define the "best hunting round". Its imposible. One day you are hunting for white tail and the next you are on a hunt in alaska for brown bear. So what? You want to start shooting everything you hunt with belted mags? Each gun has its own purpose. Thats why I have many. Same with handguns.
OMG now you are back tracking and saying the same dam thing I was trying to say aout 10 posts ago!
DO YOU REMEMBER WHAT I WAS SAYING? ABOUT A LITTLE FACTOR CALLED "SHOT PLACEMENT"???
Well ok you wanna get down and dirty then away we go.
Please feel free to post anything to back up you claims .
I posted my range report from the army its there in black and white.
You post a pic of a bull trophy hanging in some bar or something lOL.
Yeah ok:aok
I quess I could go down to outdoor pro shops and take a pic of that huge bear they goy stuffed and say yeah I bagged this one up in moose fart alaska with one shot from my trusty 9mm berretta.
The pesky critter raided our camp and it was either him or me :rofl
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You post a pic of a bull trophy hanging in some bar or something lOL.
LOL nah it was actually taken after it was hung back up in our newest store after being cleaned at the taxidermist. No bar here. Sorry :)
And no one here is getting down and dirty. But you seem to feel the need to. Why? Who knows. Maybe thats just the way you are. I'd like to think not.
I dont know where you live but if its anywhere near me you can stop by and see my other trophies. Cubeta's Feild and Stream, Middlefield CT, 157 Meriden Rd, Rout 66. If you do stop by ask for me (Jeff) I'll be more than happy to give you a tour. :)
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
I dont know where you live but if its anywhere near me you can stop by and see my other trophies. Cubeta's Feild and Stream, Middlefield CT, 157 Meriden Rd, Rout 66. If you do stop by ask for me (Jeff) I'll be more than happy to give you a tour. :)
Well I live in Murphy Tx so If YOU are ever in town you can stop buy and I will show you
my stamp collection LOL.
PS Ya got a web site?
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PS Ya got a web site?
Not as of yet. Its in the works. I'd post some more pictures but you will probably twist them into being "fakes" as you did with my first.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Not as of yet. Its in the works. I'd post some more pictures but you will probably twist them into being "fakes" as you did with my first.
Well you gotta admit that a trophy hanging over what looks like a firplace on a public place looks suspect :(
But I will take your word for It Mainly because I of all people know what its like to be called a lier when the accusers have no proof.
nice bull.
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lol well it sure as hell itsn't a bar. No bar i know has an Orvis Fly Fishing sign hanging from its ceiling. And with part of a gun rack in view I think it pretty much rules out a bar.
Think what you will tho :)
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Just for my own amusment here is another pic of the "bar" at a differnent angle.
(http://img51.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/0000009.jpg)
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Isn't that the Bass Pro Shop?
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Morph,
Your avatar is giving me a headache...:D
Personally, I believe velocity ruins more meat than bullet diameter or sectional density.
Cowboy at our camp several years back used to hunt whitetails with 300 Winchester Magnum handloaded with 130 grain hollowpoints. That slug had to be traveling dem near 4000 fps. The meat damage it caused on a small four-point buck was horrendous...both sets of ribs, off front shoulder, backstrap and part of ham were useless.
That kind of performance isn't needed. A 180 grain slug would have been far preferable.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by Shuckins
That kind of performance isn't needed. A 180 grain slug would have been far preferable.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
LOL a smaller cal would have been in order on a white tail deer fer cryin out loud LOL.
I doubt you could load a win 300 mag to do little damge on the small of an animal.
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Originally posted by VOR
Isn't that the Bass Pro Shop?
hehe no. The name is Cubeta's. It may look like some other store you've been to. I went nuts a month or so back taking pics for some reason. I get in odd moods like that. So I have quite a few more pics for ya. I think its fun to look at pics hehe. Weird the things you miss when its in real life.
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Originally posted by VOR
Isn't that the Bass Pro Shop?
:(
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Well tx...I've skinned a lot of deer in the last 50 years...shot with every caliber imaginable. Almost invariably, those with the worst meat damage were hit with a slug that was too light and hand-loaded to a higher velocity for which it was not designed.
Many nimrods in this area use 300 Winchester Magnums because shots are often long, and they want to hit their quarry with all the bullet weight and caliber they can shoot. A 180 grain boattail holds its energy well. If the slug is of strong sectional design, such as a Nosler partition, meat damage remains within acceptable limits.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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Originally posted by VOR
Isn't that the Bass Pro Shop?
We dont really do much in the way of bass fishing at this store. We deal in a tramendous amount of Orvis products.
Our second store, New England Outfitters is located just 20 minutes south off Rt 15. At which we have several indoor ranges. The two stores are partnered by three guys. My father, and two others. Its been an up hill battle but in the past few years things have gotten much better. I give my father and his other partners great credit in the work they have done to keep both of the stores moving forward.
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Well to answer the original question, which by now has been lost in confusion by expert testimony and ballistic bragging.
I would recommend a rifle in the caliber of 30.06, it is an overall popular caliber with a wide range of manufacturers and ammo availability. It's easily reloaded to suit your own standards (don't reload myself).
You can spend alot or a little-your choice-your budget. I would recommend a Ruger model 77 bolt action. If you want to add a little sport and test your luck and accuracy-go with the Ruger #1 single action. I'm not a Ruger fan per-se but in this type of sporting weapon Ruger makes a very well crafted, stable, affordable gun. Remington-you pay alot for the name, good gun, but I think the Ruger is better. If you choose Remington go with the 700 ADL-not the BDL. If you want to spend some money, go for the Weatherby, but you will spend a lot of money just for the Weatherby name-the ammo too.
I'm no expert, I just know what works and is most popular in my part of the world. A 300 Win Mag is also popular but IMHO a 30.06 is just a good all around/all purpose rifle. By all means I would go with a bolt action no matter what you choose to do.
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Originally posted by Shuckins
Well tx...I've skinned a lot of deer in the last 50 years...shot with every caliber imaginable. Almost invariably, those with the worst meat damage were hit with a slug that was too light and hand-loaded to a higher velocity for which it was not designed.
Many nimrods in this area use 300 Winchester Magnums because shots are often long, and they want to hit their quarry with all the bullet weight and caliber they can shoot. A 180 grain boattail holds its energy well. If the slug is of strong sectional design, such as a Nosler partition, meat damage remains within acceptable limits.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
Yeah but a 180 grn BT is not a light bullett atleast on a white tail LOL.
Yeah If they over load then you get into all kinds of wacky stuff .
It's not uncommon for the back of the bullett to start going into a figure 8 pattern or butterfly pattern and god knows what the round will do when it hits its target.
You might have seen this In some targets where the hole insted of being nice and round was more oblong as the bullett really hit the paper sideways .
And not to mention often the bullett will start to fragment while its on path to target so when it does hit it really tears watermelon up.
So yeppers your right some morons would be better served to just buy boxed ammo LOL.
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The one shot kill of a bull elephant with a Ruger Super Blackhawk 44 Magnum is a published fact. The bullet penetrated something over 36". It has been published in no less than a dozen magazines with date, time, location, and name of the shooter.
Rarely if ever, excluding shots that strike the central nervous system, do animals die instantly to one shot. They don't drop in their tracks. Even with perfect kill zone shots, animals dropping where they stand stone dead are extremely rare.
The average large game animal shot through the heart and one or both lungs, even if shot while standing still, runs about 50 yards or more. For example wild boars shot straight through the heart and both lungs will often run for several minutes, and prefer to die standing up. More than once I've seen whitetail deer shot straight through the heart and lungs with 7MM magnums run for quite some time and distance. The only way to make sure an animal dies in its tracks with one shot and does not move is to hit the brain or the spinal chord above the shoulders.
Less than one in one thousand hunters is qualified to take shots on big game at ranges in excess of 300 yards. By qualified I mean that said hunter is able to accurately estimate the distance, the wind, and the elevation difference, well enough to hit his target within 6" of where he aims and calls the shot 95% of the time, guaranteeing a one shot kill in a quick and humane manner for the animal.
Make note that around 90% of all hunting guides, guys who make their living hunting big game animals, shoot non magnum rifles when they hunt, and carry the same rifle when they guide. The only reason I suggest a 300 Winchester Magnum is that average hunters do not see the field time that guides and hardcore hunters do, and they need an edge to allow them a little latitude in range estimation and shot placement, not to mention they often hunt less than 5 days, and do not see the chances to shoot game the others do.
As far as backing anything up, I hope you don't call posting a score **** with not only the name of the shooter, but also both the hits AND the misses whited out, and with scores obviously ADDED after the fact backing anything up. That may be your score sheet and it may show 38 out of 40, but who knows? With all that whiteout on it, it could be anything. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take your word for it.
Notice I never made any claims that I did anything. So don't start accusing me of falsifying anything. Anything I said can be verified in your better reloading manuals and firearms magazines.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
[B
As far as backing anything up, I hope you don't call posting a score **** with not only the name of the shooter, but also both the hits AND the misses whited out, and with scores obviously ADDED after the fact backing anything up. That may be your score sheet and it may show 38 out of 40, but who knows? With all that whiteout on it, it could be anything. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and take your word for it.
[/B]
My name is whited out cause it aint none your buisness.
The scores where added by someone in the Ranges officers COC.
And you will notice I whited out the SSN as well LOL not likely Im going to post too much info on this BBS.
And you will see that we agree on the win300 mag as to giving the shooter that little extra edge he might need.
And with animals you can never tell
hell I hit a Mule doe in the gutts with a 308 norma mag and she went down like a ton "O" bricks.
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TXMX, I thought you promised you weren't going to do this sort of thing anymore?
:(
Might as well have filled the thing out with a crayola.
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Ofcoures Its photoshoped you idiot.
Like i said I whited out my name and SSn# and some other stuff that frankly Is none of you buisness.
Now Tell me how this is fake?
Oh here is another fake i picked up along the way.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/481_1085451983_coin2.jpg)
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Originally posted by GScholz
The man is a pathological liar, he can't help it.
And If your gonna call me a lier than I only think It fair that I call you a whinny little euro TARD.
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geeze name calling now.
WoW, we've really come along ways:rolleyes:
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Hey tmxmx.
It sucks when people call you a liar dont it?;)
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
geeze name calling now.
WoW, we've really come along ways:rolleyes:
Yeah i ran an edit cause I aint gonna stoop to this moronic little europeon .
All he does Is slam America so welcome to the ignore list little man.
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lol me on the list? Cant say I'd care much seeing as this is only a BB.
I just ignore the people who dont matter and pay closer attention to the ones that do.:)
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
Hey tmxmx.
It sucks when people call you a liar dont it?;)
LOL you got me there.
you will notice though that when people started in on questioning your store I dropped it .
hey gotta give credit for that .
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
lol me on the list? Cant say I'd care much seeing as this is only a BB.
I just ignore the people who dont matter and pay closer attention to the ones that do.:)
Nope you aint on no list of mine man.
I always enjoy a good discussion with you.
We may not agree on watermelon but way talk like adults for the most part LOL I like that
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LIKE I SAID Read MY LIPS .
I used Photoshop on the document to conceal things and to overlay others .
Are you blind or do you just see what you want to see .
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Wow, ownage.
:aok
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this is fcuking hilarious
accused donut with ears european -1
obviously 'christian' amrican - 0
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Originally posted by GScholz
Well, at least I can still have children.
Well Im sure you and your husband are very happy
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Originally posted by GScholz
*LOL!* Thanks, I know you and your wife are not.
OH but we are having a blast living in our payed for 4.480 sq ft home .
And driving our three new cars payed for of coures .
And watching that 460k in stocks and savings just grow and grow LOL.
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Well gotta go feed the dogs in my Huge back yard.
God I love America
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/481_1085366277_h002.jpg)
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This is up there with Bobn's 'nam photos. WTG!!!
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LOL i think you all have been bitten by the moron spider or something.
Did you not read where i said That I DID Photoshop the thing to cover up important
infomation that you simply dont need to know.
Unless we all want to start showing ourreal names and SSN#s ?
Funked1 you go first.:aok
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Originally posted by txmx
OH but we are having a blast living in our payed for 4.480 sq ft home .
And driving our three new cars payed for of coures .
And watching that 460k in stocks and savings just grow and grow LOL.
im not taking sides but if your so happy with your wife why do you have a bikini babe as your avatar?
Edit: my real name is hamish cameron and i dont give a shreck if you think you can hurt me just form knowing my name, sniper.
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Originally posted by mechanic
im not taking sides but if your so happy with your wife why do you have a bikini babe as your avatar?
Because I lost the picture of your wife:aok
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Originally posted by txmx
Because I lost the picture of your wife:aok
lol good answer :aok
shame gsholz or whatever missed that one
was quick witted and humourus :aok
(really im not taking sides and i dont view this BBS as anything more than a stupid testosterone pit)
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My name is Alfred E. Newman and my SSN is 123-69-1941
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Originally posted by Modas
I personally would pick a 30-06. I've shot this round exclusively for 18 years. Its a "jack of all trades" type of bullet. Good energy out thru 400 yard, relatively flat trajectory (not like a .223 or higher velocity round) but not bad. I use a bronze point, 180 grain round and typically sight in for 200 yards.
Never had a problem with animals not going down when hit with it.
Absolutely correct, plenty of firepower for any North American Game IMHO. I've been shooting the 150gr. ballistic tip for 3 years now and it's plenty for big whitetail. I've never hunted elk though.
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O gotta agree.
I've always loved the 30-06. never had another rifle (other than a .22) until I was in my late 20's.
you can buy (off the shelf) heavier projectiles for elk, lighter ones for deer, hell I still have half a box of 50gr Accelerators, that shoot damn flat out to about 400yds. ( you can't buy them boxed anymore, but you can still buy the sabots and 'roll your own') man they are fast, fast, fast.
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Originally posted by txmx
Really? Been to Cananda hunting lately have you? LOL.
Well my Father shot one at 600yds so I tend to go on what he told me.
And having seen the old fart shoot Mule Deer in Colorado at up to 800+ yds I tend to believe him.
I gotta call BS on that
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Bah, I took the sniper test. 18 is gay.
(http://webpages.charter.net/ck2112/sniper.jpg)
(Edited to protect my Ninja CIA roll)
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Originally posted by Creamo
Bah, I took the sniper test. 18 is gay.
(http://webpages.charter.net/ck2112/sniper.jpg)
(Edited to protect my Ninja CIA roll)
lmfao creamo
:rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Couple of things:
1. The greatest elephant hunter, Bell, shot most of his elephants with a 7x57. Smaller than a .308. With premium bullets, you can kill anything with a .308. Roy Weatherby used to hunt cape buffalo with his .270 Weatherby to prove it could be done. Patterson, the guy who killed the Tsavo lions, did it with a .303 Enfield.
2. Handloader just did a study that many of the lighter bullets, such as the Accubond, Interbond, Sirrocco and something else, do lost 10-15% more weight when shot over 3000fps. They go from 90+ to 80 if they're lucky.
3. I shot my last desert mule deer at 268 yards lasered (prone off a rest) with a .300 H&H Mag and 200grn Partitions. The meat was just fine.
4. This is my new Weatherby Vanguard that I bought in .338 Win Mag and had rebarreled with a Douglass barrell in .257 Weatherby Mag.
(http://www.hunt101.com/img/162284.jpg)
(I threw that in because I got it yesterday :D)
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Originally posted by mipoikel
Jarski perkele! Älä ees kattele ulkomaille! Suomessa tehdään maailman parhaita aseita!!!!
http://www.sako.fi/ (http://www.sako.fi/)
http://www.tikka.fi/ (http://www.tikka.fi/)
PS, if this says, "Go buy a Sako or Tikka!", that's what I said to do on the first page! ;)
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TXMX
What is the point of the form is everything on it is photoshopped? It proved nothing that way.
I can see removing your name and SSN, but other then that, you are asking to be called a lair, and with your past almost no one is going to give you any leeway.
Edit: PS the other pic means nothing as well, you would be amazed what you can get on ebay.
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Originally posted by Creamo
Bah, I took the sniper test. 18 is gay.
(http://webpages.charter.net/ck2112/sniper.jpg)
(Edited to protect my Ninja CIA roll)
ROFLMFAO!
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Originally posted by storch
I gotta call BS on that
Call what you will.
Im sure you were not even born when he made the shot LOL so your opnion means nothing to me.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
TXMX
What is the point of the form is everything on it is photoshopped? It proved nothing that way.
I can see removing your name and SSN, but other then that, you are asking to be called a lair, and with your past almost no one is going to give you any leeway.
Edit: PS the other pic means nothing as well, you would be amazed what you can get on ebay.
I just whited everything out and then typed back in the #s .
Also I whited out the sigs so that no one could copy them for illegal chit.
You would be suprised what you can do with someones sig!
LOL and I knew these cats and would not want them pissed at me.
So what If it proves nothing I really dont care at this point I know what I know and thats good enough for me.
I have of yet to see anyone else post anything to back up there claims.
Wonder why?
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I can attest that the form Creamo has posted is completely authentic. I can tell you that he has attained a ranking of l33t u|\|d3rc0v3r |\|i|\|JA 5n1P3r and is an undercover oprative for the CIA flying super-duper undercover mishuns for the government in his F16 and doing battle with the most horrendus al qaida scorpions you can imagine. For his safety and for the safety of the thousands of amurrika's finest that rely on him getting the job done, I can't reveal any further information. Godspeed Agent Creamo!
SSGT SOB
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
We dont really do much in the way of bass fishing at this store. We deal in a tramendous amount of Orvis products.
Our second store, New England Outfitters is located just 20 minutes south off Rt 15. At which we have several indoor ranges. The two stores are partnered by three guys. My father, and two others. Its been an up hill battle but in the past few years things have gotten much better. I give my father and his other partners great credit in the work they have done to keep both of the stores moving forward.
Oops, totally missed your reply the other day. Great looking place! (I thought at first it was the Bass Pro Shop in Nashville!)
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Originally posted by SOB
I can attest that the form Creamo has posted is completely authentic. I can tell you that he has attained a ranking of l33t u|\|d3rc0v3r |\|i|\|JA 5n1P3r and is an undercover oprative for the CIA flying super-duper undercover mishuns for the government in his F16 and doing battle with the most horrendus al qaida scorpions you can imagine. For his safety and for the safety of the thousands of amurrika's finest that rely on him getting the job done, I can't reveal any further information. Godspeed Agent Creamo!
SSGT SOB
I’ve got to add a few things about Creamo;
He has a 44,800 sq ft home (his tool shed out back is 4.480 sq ft).
He is married to Jennifer Aniston (the whole Brad Pitt thing was a publicity stunt).
He can eat a live scorpion and ask for more, and not even get sick.
He has 4.6 billion dollars in the bank.
General eskimo
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Originally posted by txmx
Now this is more what you might want for a good hunting rig.
Winchester leredo 300 magnum w/ 40x tasco custom shop scope.
For Elk a 300 win mag is a good choice. But a 40X Scope??!! Tasco?! Even for long range target practice it isn't a good combo. Too much mirage effect on anything but a cool day. FOV waaay too tight for hunting deer and elk. I don't know of any snipers that actually use that much magnification when they are "sniping".
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Originally posted by SaburoS
For Elk a 300 win mag is a good choice. But a 40X Scope??!! Tasco?! Even for long range target practice it isn't a good combo. Too much mirage effect on anything but a cool day. FOV waaay too tight for hunting deer and elk. I don't know of any snipers that actually use that much magnification when they are "sniping".
Don't know about the .300 Winchester Mag because I really wouldn't want to deal with the recoil. I feel that there is no need for that caliber to hunt North American game. As for the scope my favorite is Leupold and on all my hunting rifles I use the Vari X IIc in 3x9 with 40mm objective. I have never needed the x9 magnification.
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Originally posted by Dune
Couple of things:
4. This is my new Weatherby Vanguard that I bought in .338 Win Mag and had rebarreled with a Douglass barrell in .257 Weatherby Mag.
(http://www.hunt101.com/img/162284.jpg)
(I threw that in because I got it yesterday :D)
Nice rifle! Congrats. .257 Weatherby...not familiar with it, but it sounds faaaaast. :D
Edit: Had to Google it. Yep, it's fast.
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Guys, the facts are in on Mr. Black, Txmx, LAWCobra, Stratman, and it's many other iterations. why not start a flame thread on him so I don't have to look at it?
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Now this is more what you might want for a good hunting rig.
Winchester leredo 300 magnum w/ 40x tasco custom shop scope.
OMG i must have over looked this
Tasco as turned into one of the cheapest scopes on the market to date. There were close to being junk before but now they have surpassed that mark. And a 40X. lol
Leopold is the only way to do when it comes to glass.
The simple fact that this guy has recomended a rifle like that tells me he knows nothing of hunting.
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Originally posted by storch
Guys, the facts are in on Mr. Black, Txmx, LAWCobra, Stratman, and it's many other iterations. why not start a flame thread on him so I don't have to look at it?
no way! lol
Now it all makes sense.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
OMG i must have over looked this
Tasco as turned into one of the cheapest scopes on the market to date. There were close to being junk before but now they have surpassed that mark. And a 40X. lol
Leopold is the only way to do when it comes to glass.
You want that 40x so you can shoot mosquitos.
BTW, take a look at the Burris line. I've had great luck with their Fulfield II's with the Ballisticplex reticle. Their 3-9x is a very nice scope.
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Yes Burris has come a long ways in the past few years. THey have always been a well made shkoaop.
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Originally posted by Dune
You want that 40x so you can shoot mosquitos.
BTW, take a look at the Burris line. I've had great luck with their Fulfield II's with the Ballisticplex reticle. Their 3-9x is a very nice scope.
Why Leupold? I was dragging my fat arse up to a tree stand with the hope of bagging a nice 160lb sow we had seen in the woods earlier. I dropped my Mk77 about 20 feet to the forest floor. :/ I climbed down and called it a day. The rifle was fine but the scope wasn't (Leupold vari x II) sent it to Leupold and Stevens in Beaverton Or. with a note explaining what had occurred. They sent the scope back better than new. no charge.
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Originally posted by storch
Why Leupold? I was dragging my fat arse up to a tree stand with the hope of bagging a nice 160lb sow we had seen in the woods earlier. I dropped my Mk77 about 20 feet to the forest floor. :/ I climbed down and called it a day. The rifle was fine but the scope wasn't (Leupold vari x II) sent it to Leupold and Stevens in Beaverton Or. with a note explaining what had occurred. They sent the scope back better than new. no charge.
Bingo you hit the nail right on the head.
They dont care what happened to the scope that broke it in the first place. They are one of the few companies that I know of who care only of making the customer happy at all costs.
For the money (sure they cost more but not as much as others who claim to be the "best") they are the best hands down.
You break it, you get a new one. How easy is that?
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Originally posted by txmx
Kinda looks that way HUH:rolleyes:
lol what a 2 bit chump you've turned out to be.
What I have and what my family has created with nothing less than hard work tears and sweat is real.
Its alot more than that fake BS you toss about.
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Here's a few more pics of our "Bass Pro Shope" as you have come to refer to it as such.
(http://img51.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/000_0003.jpg)
(http://img51.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/100_0042.jpg)
(http://img51.photobucket.com/albums/v156/ststang2/000_0003.jpg)
I figured I toss in a pic on my friend Chris who works there part time for us. A big civl war reinactment nut and an even bigger gun nut. He's quite the character.
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In response to Morpheous.
I retract any and all smartarse comments i might have made at him or his famillies buisness.
I have no knowledge of it being anything other that what he says it is HIS families store.
Therefore I offer my humble appologie to you.
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Originally posted by SOB
I can attest that the form Creamo has posted is completely authentic. I can tell you that he has attained a ranking of l33t u|\|d3rc0v3r |\|i|\|JA 5n1P3r and is an undercover oprative for the CIA flying super-duper undercover mishuns for the government in his F16 and doing battle with the most horrendus al qaida scorpions you can imagine. For his safety and for the safety of the thousands of amurrika's finest that rely on him getting the job done, I can't reveal any further information. Godspeed Agent Creamo!
SSGT SOB
If those nasty camel spiders show up, give me a call
(http://home.ripway.com/2004-3/80979/guns.jpg)
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Hey Morpheus...can I come live at your store?
:D
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Originally posted by Dune
Hey Morpheus...can I come live at your store?
:D
No kidding! That place has some atmosphere! And cool toys too. ;)
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hehe thanks guys its a great place to hang out. I'll take some better pics, im no photrapher. :p
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Morph,
Adopt me...please.
Regards, Shuckins/Leggern
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MoRphEuS, I'm not a sportsman, but that is one nice looking store.
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Morpheus, what do you guys get for one of those wood canoes? They might be kind of heavy to lug around, but man o man they look cool.
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A little update:
I went for the 45-70 Marlin , with Aimpoint Comp red dot sight.
Never looked back since!
The gun is just perfect for our hunting ground where shooting distances are short and lots of bushes and branches spoiling your line of fire. The bullet doesn´t mind whacking through some obstacles while screaming into the target , its so heavy :)
Also red dot sight is just perfect under 100 m ranges.
One elk down already and my father has started using MY rifle when I´m not around , says that its better than his .308 because its breech mechanism and overall using is more user friendly than bolt action.
And also our 7 month old "puppy" is working well also, 1 elk down and going stronger every day. At first our hunting club guys said that " Oh no, puppy training, we don´t want to go with them , no game!!!"
Now its like " His dog is working well, we should take it because then we will get some action"
Lots of situations where the dog has done its job but theres no room for a shot.
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Hi Jarski,
It is nice to hear that your dog working so well.
In this year I have only seen dead elks. The nearest one were about 400 meters away on my hunting post. May be i'm luckier later in this year.
We have very low numbers of elks in our area in this year and we are going to keep a little pause in hunting. We contiune our hunting after 3 weeks.
Here is some pics I took 3 week ago.
(http://www.tracklogix.fi/marko/kuvat/hunt1.jpg)
(http://www.tracklogix.fi/marko/kuvat/hunt2.jpg)
(http://www.tracklogix.fi/marko/kuvat/hunt3.jpg)
(http://www.tracklogix.fi/marko/kuvat/hunt4.jpg)
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Good choice Jarsci!!! Marlin levers are made for deer hunting in the woods. And the Aimpoint sight should be right at home on the Marlin.
SAX those pictures remind me of my hunting days when I was in a club. The woods even look similar, along the roads at least. Is that part of the Taiga forest where the pictures are taken?
Les
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Originally posted by Leslie
SAX those pictures remind me of my hunting days when I was in a club. The woods even look similar, along the roads at least. Is that part of the Taiga forest where the pictures are taken?
Les
Hi Les,
Pictures are taken from Finland. In the first and second pictures you can see young finnish pine forest and in the last picture you see what it looks like after 30-40 years.