Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sikboy on May 21, 2004, 01:44:20 PM
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I've read a few comments about gunnery being a bit more difficult in AH2, and I'm wondering if anyone else noticed this?
I haven't. I've only flown the 109G10 and the two Yaks, but I haven't noticed any degredation in my ability to hit with the guns. In fact, I nailed a Pony from about D600 (give or take, with the new icon system) which isn't a shot I'd usually even take in AH1 (because I suck). This was with the Yak-9U firing all guns. Since a big chunkie came off the plane before it exploded, I figured I must have tagged him with the ShVAK.
Anyhow, long story short, I don't notice gunnery being any more difficult with these three planes. Who out there "feels" a difference, and what plane/gun are you using?
-Sik
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Actually I've had the same experience in the C205.
What I think it boils down to is there is a smaller hit bubble around the plane. But, if you were a 1/2 way decent shot to begin with you'll still hit from that distance. Not that I consider myself good....just lucky. :)
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You need more lead than in AH1. At close range eight mg's still bite well.
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Part of it is that you don't see hit sprites through the dash anymore. I always used to fire very short bursts until I saw hits. Then would open up, that feedback is missing 80% of the time now.
Also seems like the planes are smaller.
Like I have to be much closer to see what he's doing.
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Hitting with the LA7 seems harder to me, and I flew it alot in AH1 and didnt have to much trouble killing in it.
Hitting in the mustang and F4U seems harder at long ranges, up close is not that bad, I am getting all my kills now at 200 yards or closer.
I am not sure how good the Niks guns were in AH1, I never flew it but I tried it in 2 and could not hit a level p-38 at 600 yards and I had time to ajust a few times.
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I don't believe ballistics itself is changed. However, there seem to be a few factors involved in this - whether it be real, or just placebo.
* Change in hit sprites
They are much more difficult to see when further away, and their resident time on the FE is also shorter.
Over some distance it is difficult to be sure if you are really landing hits or not, so you are a bit reluctant to fire long bursts as compared to AH1(at least, for me it is).
Also, the shorter resident time on the FE means the hit sprites "spark" and then quickly fade away. In AH1, people use to say "light it up like a Christmas tree" - literally it did look like a Christmas tree because the hit sprites were shown up for too long a time, making it a bit easier to keep track of where your shots land and how.
I've made some comparisons in how large the plane looks on one's FE over distances, but AH1 and AH2 is much same in that sense. Enemy planes looking smaller than it used to, is a placebo - it's actually the hit sprite that is smaller. It seems that in AH1, the pilots reacted to how the large white globs of hit sprites were shown. The less visible the sprites, the less input we get in how we are firing, and thus the sensation of smaller looking planes.
* Change in tracer smoke
Both cannon and MG rounds have changed in tracer smoke effect. While they are still enough to give a general idea of where your shots are flying, it's very different(relatively less informative) from the "grey laserbeam" in AH1.
Ofcourse, experienced pilots already have a sense of how the rounds fly so they actually don't need tracers at all. It is a hinderance for them because the smoke trail is a hinderance rather than help.
However, for exactly that reason, it seems that for the average pilot who needs tracers to show a general bullet path, the tracer smoke actually becomes a huge hinderance if he sprays relentlessly. The longer you pull the trigger, the more numerous the smoky traill, and harder it becomes to aim. On the contrary, the shorter he pulls the trigger, the less rounds in the air, and less chances of hitting the target. Whichever way, it effects gunnery.
* Change in tracer rounds
The size of the tracer round itself, is also smaller over distances. While this doesn't effect people who never relied on tracers, for most average pilots who use tracers it is a big minus effect since over 300~400 yards its harder to see where your rounds are going as compared to AH1.
* Hit sprites no loner visible through plane surfaces
Like Ghosth said, they are not visible through the nose anymore. When firing during maneuvering, you have no idea whether you got the shot in or not if the lead angle was high. You have to fire, turn away, and then see if you hit him or not.
* Change in FM
The subtle changes in the FM effects how a pilot micro-manages his plane. In my case, I've quit using combat trim completely, because the CT seems to react slower to various changes than it used to in AH1. Maybe the average pilot who uses CT, receive some penalty in fine aiming.
Another change is how the stalls develop in AH2. A hard stick pull nearing the edge of envelope, with a sudden rudder input, will put your plane through a 'wobbling' stall rarely ever experienced before in AH1.
Knowing such tendencies, it seems that many people pull less lead than they used to - in AH1, in a stable platform like the Spit for instance, one could very briefly yank the stick with some rudder and force a shot in, and then immediately set stick to neutral to stop stalling. In AH2, that will give you a flat spin.
* Shiny aiming reticles
In AH2, now the aiming reticles react to the light. In the wrong angle, the reticle can be either too bright or too dark.
* Icon distances
The icon distance, is probably the largest effect of them all. Increments of 200 yards. Unless you observe the enemy plane continuously for a certain length of time(usually like 2 seconds..), it is very difficult to perceive the relative difference in speed and distance.
If I watch closely how fast the 'ticks' changed from 800 to 600 to 400.. judging by that I can take a guess whether the target is at 350, 300, or 250.. but ofcourse, this is a guess, and it can go wrong. Wrong guess, wrong aiming. Also, if I didn't have enough time to watch the target plane, insufficient input on how fast the distance/speed is changing.. which also makes it difficult to aim.
........
These are about the factors I could come up with right now. If ballistics itself isn't changed at all, it's quite wonderous how indirect factors can effect gunnery in such ways.
I still can get 400~500 yard shots easily, if the target plane is very predictable and slow - like for instance, when I get within 600~400 tick when the enemy plane is going vertical, I can shoot.
But any other situation, in AH2, now I need to get within 300yards all the time to make sure that I really hit someting and not waste ammo. I also feel much more reluctant in trying a shot that goes over 400 yards. All those things, make up the change in gunnery I guess.
But the change itself, is definately here. While trying out Beta I've gotten out from a lot of situations where I'd never have, were I in AH1. Like, a mistake in maneuvering landed a Spitfire behind my Bf109G-10 between 200~400 range. We were both slow. I actually managed to out-accelerate the Spitfire and escape unscathed, with some gentle jinking.
In AH1, any pilot, even the newest ones, would have shot me down in that situation. The only way out of that situation in AH1, is to somehow force an overshoot, or jink very hard to avoid bullets, because slight jinking will get you killed. Well, apparently it did not get me killed in AH2.
I've also managed to escape from a lot of .50 armed planes at ranges between 400~600, which in AH1, I'd certainly never would have, or lost some precious plane parts.
If they ever decide to remove ammo counters(which I doubt... ).. that'd be like a finishing touch to it all.
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Gotta agree with all your points there Kweassa...I have found for me..that I have been having a bit of a problem with the gunnery..not bad just different....your article is great!!! Thanks for all the time!
BUMP TO THE TOP!:D
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Tho not easier I like the gunnery changes. That combined with the icon distance changes makes it enjoyable and new.
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Good, I was so tired of losing a P38 to a N1K from d1.1 out. I always felt cheated.
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I've got the impression that it is harder to hit someone from dead six but when you do hit them you do more damage. Deflection gunnery in the F6F seems no different than AH1 to me. I've shot wings off people trying to rope me at 1000 yards or so, was hoping it'd be harder actually. However this is pretty much a subjective thing based on a week's flying in the arena.
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The gunnery feels alot different to me. Shots I make easily in AH1 I've been missing in AH2. Thinking on it I think Kwea is onto something with his list of indirect factors. In the past couple of days though, I've gotten the distinct impression that real ACM and not F16 ACM is going to become alot more important. Overall I like the changes, just have to get used to them =)
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Yes i think that the 200 yard closure rate is a little bit more
difficult for me, but in time when AH11 comes out we will all get used to it. :eek:
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I think the hit detection is improved compaired to AHI. this makes hitting this surfaces edge-on very hard, hence it's harder to hit from dead 6.
Bozon
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anyone else think that it is more sensitive now? I mean I used to be about to fish about with it and throw shots, using it to help lead. Now it seems much harder to do so, as if the arc/movement rudder input creates is now greater than before.
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I still seem to get shot down quite easily, only difference is now I can't hit crap myself :(
JustJim1
III/Jabostaffel
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After a week playing AHII exclusively I ended to the conclusion that gunnery is not different at all.
I'm used to it now and I feel no difference with AH1, I tried AH1 again last night and didn't noticed the change ...
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Hitting with the LA7 seems harder to me, and I flew it alot in AH1 and didnt have to much trouble killing in it.
I've noticed a marked improvement in my La7 gunnery. Now that might be because of the situations I've been in or the fact that I use the 3 shVaks not the two.
Head-Ons are harder to execute.
:D
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Practicing offline seemed at first to indicate to me that a bit more lead was needed. But I'm not so sure now. I think that the differences in the graphics, and also perhaps more refined hit bubbles make gunnery seem harder at first. Not seeing hits through the dash make tight turning shots much harder, but obviously more realistic (read "Bud" Anderson's account of making just such a shot in his autobiography).
I also think that because my framerates are lower, the hit sprites don't always show because of their very short duration. For example, from a spit I fired a short burst at a P47 which was banked right and in plane-form at ~300 yards. I saw only a single hit flash on his left wing tip, and then his plane exploded. I have seen parts fall off other aircraft I have fired at without seeing any hit flashes at all. I often land kills I wasn't aware of in AH2 (much less often in AH1), and can only attribute it to aircraft I'd fired on and thought I had missed actually having been damaged. Or maybe there are just more people lawndarting under my plane in AH2.
Eventually I'd like to see hit flashes that act more like puffs of vapour, (as they often appear in real gun camera footage). As such, these little puffs of smoke hang stationary in the air at the point of impact, rather than floating along with the plane.
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I use the 3 shVaks not the two.
Minor correction; the 3 gun loadout are the Beresin B-20 cannons. They supposed to be better tahn ShVAKs..
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After a week playing AHII exclusively I ended to the conclusion that gunnery is not different at all.
I'm used to it now and I feel no difference with AH1, I tried AH1 again last night and didn't noticed the change ...
That's because u never fired at anything further than 400yards in the first place, straffo ;)
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Perhaps :)
So far even if I thought it was not a good idea it appear that I was wrong :)
It make evasive more efficient and fights are more fun, but the beta arena is as today not like the MA so I don't know what will be the future ...
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I can't hit a barn in a 109, and started a thread of my own to say so!
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Originally posted by Kweassa
* Change in FM
The subtle changes in the FM effects how a pilot micro-manages his plane. In my case, I've quit using combat trim completely, because the CT seems to react slower to various changes than it used to in AH1. Maybe the average pilot who uses CT, receive some penalty in fine aiming.
Another change is how the stalls develop in AH2. A hard stick pull nearing the edge of envelope, with a sudden rudder input, will put your plane through a 'wobbling' stall rarely ever experienced before in AH1.
Knowing such tendencies, it seems that many people pull less lead than they used to - in AH1, in a stable platform like the Spit for instance, one could very briefly yank the stick with some rudder and force a shot in, and then immediately set stick to neutral to stop stalling. In AH2, that will give you a flat spin.
This one is huge for those of us that like to fight twisty-turny fights. You HAVE to be very gentle on your rudder, maybe even dampen it or add dead zones so you don't accidently engage it at the wrong time. Combined with the "hidden" hits behind your cowling during a tight turn it really changes how you perform up close with nimble aircraft.
Add to the list a noticeable change in torque-steering that will potentially throw you into a spin or stall with sudden throttle ups/downs and its a whole different experience.
And fun when you get used to it.....
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The blind over-nose shots sure are different, I've had several situations where I blasted someone on high deflection and had to break off, only to get the kill message later.. obviously I've hit them harder than I could see. Also, the long range sprayers, without the feedback of big hit-sprites, tend to be less effective.
Overall I tend to agree with Kwessa though, it's probably a combination of factors that has made the difference but you are less likely to notice them if you typical shot range was <300 vs. >400.
People will adjust though, it'll just take time.
-Soda
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Well I am adjusting, and I still like what I see.
HO's are much less common & easier to duck. Harder to hit.
Lead shots while possible are much more difficult to be sure if you hit or not.
So if I have ammo I'll try them, but once ammo gets under half I get a LOT more conservative. This is a good thing IMO.
3 kill sorties are starting to happen for me fairly regular. & I'm seeing a lot more 4 & 5 kill sorties for other people.
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I think I've gotten the 109 gunnery down.
First thing I did was turn off tracers. The smoke trails in my face were blinding me!
Second, I avoided rudder input in fights. Go straight in, close to d200, then fire. I was never much of a marksman to begin with, so getting in close is a big help.
One thing I noticed is that I can raise my head higher in the 109s now than I could in AH1. I had imported my settings from AH1 into AH2 and didn't bother to see if I could raise my head higher until last night. I did, and I started seeing more kills.
It also seems to me that that 109F's guns package is more lethal now than it used to be. 2x7.7mm and 1x20mm are sufficient to knock down a F4U with a short burst now. Also, 2x13mm and 1x20mm in a G6 are enough to knock down a pair of Lancasters and a P-47 now. Just make sure you get in close, because I was having trouble landing hits outside d400 unless I was dead-six o'clock on the target.
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I thought i was chasing a 109 last night.....git only ended up flying past me off my right wing.
Judging by the fact he didn't fire I'm guessing he didn't know we were about to joust either.
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My normal (bad) gunnery is no worse in AH2, and in fact I am getting better with practice. I have actually shot down people with deflection shots recently.
Only things which make it harder are:
1) The very dark water combined with the darker gunsight glass (both of which are not realistic in my opinion and hopefully will be fixed in due course).
2) The increased difficulty in seeing hits at long range. However, with practice, this is less important, I think.
BTW, guys, how common was it in WWII for pilots to shoot down maneuvering fighters at long range? Not very.
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I was finally flying late last night after getting a new PC , 2.7ghz celeron 256mb ram 40gig HD , FX5200 128mb video card.
I do notice big differences in gunnery compared to AH1 , but i think it is a learning curve and will get used to it in time. I would like to see the icons for enemy's above the plane just like the friendlys are. Also the friendly icon range acts just like AH1 , as you gain you see the increments 600,599,598,597 ....... but the enemy planes i noticed jump from 1k,800,600,400 or in 50 yd increments, not actually incremental.
I think this has been throwing my shooting off. HTC please change the icon range act like the friendly ones. Just as they are in AH1.
I still think there is alot of work that could be done to make the game less video intensive. There are alot of great video intensive games that dont eat ur system up like AH2. This new video card and this pc , Im still getting low fps and have the 2 video sliders at max performance in the game settings , away from bases i get 50- 60 + fps. When i check cntl I > it shows only less than 40mb of my 128mb active, so why is the game not taking advantage of this new video card and most of its 128mb onboard ram ???
I'd hate to think I spent all this money for nothing. All my other games run sweeeeeet on this system. Call of Duty, Battlefield with all the settings on MAX. I hope you get to a point of quality and compatibility that will let everyone enjoy the game at the level it should be.
Therz my 2cents
50cals :cool:
Nightmares VMF-101
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50cals, the max settings are totaly arbitrary at the moment. I wouldn't think anyone could run at them set at full. Basicly I just will lower what max is.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Eagler
anyone else think that "the rudder" is more sensitive now? I mean I used to be about to fish about with it and throw shots, using it to help lead. Now it seems much harder to do so, as if the arc/movement rudder input creates is now greater than before.
I agree. I changed my sliders for rudder and pitch yesterday. Made them more gradual. Fiddling with it I'm getting closer to what I want.
Before I messed with the rudder sliders I was yawing all over the place for a shot.
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i dont see the point of the increments of 200. is ah to lazy to do individual numbers? it just makes it even harder to judge speed and distance.
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it just makes it even harder to judge speed and distance.
That's the whole point. It's not easy to judge speed and distance in real life.
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kweesa, this game is supposed to be fun, and its not real life, this is just hampering it
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...
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Its not hampering my fun and neither I suspect for the majority.
Its different to how AH1 does it but that does not make it bad.
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If being opposed to reality is fun, why not try Crimson skies?
The charm of the simulation genre comes from how well it can imitate the reality on certain levels. If it isn't absolutely unavoidable, a 'gameplay concession' should not be used. The more crutches we balance ourselves on, the more this game loses its sole merit of being accurate and depictive of WW2 aircraft. We might as well just slap a "X-wing Turbolaser" tag on one of the 50cals or Hispanos and be done with it.
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Thought we agreed .50 cals were phasers:D
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Dunno if its harder gunnery but my hit rate is hovering at the 5% mark and thats waaaay below my norm.
However i can live with it, just means less kills per flight i guess.
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I gues your right kweassa, but still i dont see why they changed it like that.
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Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Dunno if its harder gunnery but my hit rate is hovering at the 5% mark and thats waaaay below my norm.
However i can live with it, just means less kills per flight i guess.
How do you check you're precentage ?
I thought stats were desactivated in the beta ???
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Straffo the stats are working and available in AH2 its the rankings that are disabled.
Go to roster and highlight a player name, right click on it and a menu will pop up with score, join etc listed.
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thank a lot !
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Originally posted by Ghosth
Well I am adjusting, and I still like what I see.
HO's are much less common & easier to duck. Harder to hit.
Lead shots while possible are much more difficult to be sure if you hit or not.
So if I have ammo I'll try them, but once ammo gets under half I get a LOT more conservative. This is a good thing IMO.
3 kill sorties are starting to happen for me fairly regular. & I'm seeing a lot more 4 & 5 kill sorties for other people.
One thing the changes to gunnery do, is put a greater premium on planes with terrific nose-low deflection views. Now that hit sprites cannot be seen through cockpit surfaces the better your nose-low view is, the high deflection shots you can take without having them be 'blind'.
Poor nose-low defelction view is one of the biggest reasons I avoid flying 190s,109s, and Russian crap. The P51 was famous for it's great view, and with new changes to gunnery will be an even better gunnery platform as will planes like the P38,F6f, the Hurri's, and Typhoon/Tempest.
Zazen
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Bring on the realism :aok I also did notice the zero and zeke are very lethal now in AH2. A plus for base defenders and another :aok by me.
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Dont let the FR boyz pull yur chains. Overall gunnery is harder. No matter where you want to direct the reason. Why the big push for FR.. Isnt TOD going to offer FR for you freaks of nature? :D
And besides.. I would support FR (IF) the Full Realism supporters agree that NME Icons and Radar should be removed. :D Any takers? Then youd be talkin FR WW11 Style. Otherwize Its a ridiculas notion to think that the middle of the road will every be anything but reason to constantly re-visit FR issues in the game. I dont think im up to another one of those "Synopsis" from Kweezy. :rofl Its like watching Gone With The Wind, all over again. :D
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Yes I'd REALLY like to see the icons GONE - at least the ranges. Only problem is that with people being allowed to pick their rides on all sides you can't tell an nme by the plane he flies, so you need something like a coloured dot, at least. Other problem is that you still can't really see well enough to spot aircraft markings until you get real close. Maybe that explains why there was such a high rate of friendly fire incidents amongst Allied aircraft during WWII. Anyway let's ditch the huge icon billboards and make things a bit more exciting.
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Originally posted by fluffy
Yes I'd REALLY like to see the icons GONE - at least the ranges. Only problem is that with people being allowed to pick their rides on all sides you can't tell an nme by the plane he flies, so you need something like a coloured dot, at least. Other problem is that you still can't really see well enough to spot aircraft markings until you get real close. Maybe that explains why there was such a high rate of friendly fire incidents amongst Allied aircraft during WWII. Anyway let's ditch the huge icon billboards and make things a bit more exciting.
I believe i stated NME Icons You can toggel icons on and off. I do it sometimes for the fun of it. But leaving them off when the NME has them on. well thats just crazy. I do it from time to time after im in the saddle just for the realistic feeling of it. Kinda cool :)
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109s are the same for me....
spitfires are next to useless now...seems 20mm cannons just dont come out of the guns anymore, or something.
50s are work... but take AGES to do any real damage....
i think ill be in 109s for a lot more now.......
:(