Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Steve on May 23, 2004, 04:09:56 AM
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Crime did not fall in England after handguns were banned in January 1997. Quite the contrary, crime rose sharply. Yet, serious violent crime rates from 1997 to 2002 averaged 29 percent higher than 1996; robbery was 24 percent higher; murders 27 percent higher. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50 percent from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned, the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.
Source:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,120638,00.html
Meanwhile, gun crimes in Britain are increasing. According to London's authoritative Sunday Times, the number of firearm offenses in Britain increased almost 40 percent from 4,903 in 1997 to 6,843 in 2000. These are still small figures in comparison to the United States, but the trend is the opposite of what might be expected.
Source:
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/22/63817.shtml
England and Wales now have the highest crime rate of the world's 20 leading nations.
Source:
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=30365
Gun control does not work.
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:rolleyes:
This thread is just a lame troll to deflect attention from this...
(http://www.zen33071.zen.co.uk/mm.jpg)
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Can you imagine just how bad it's going to be in November when Mr Bush gets tossed out of the White House? The horror!!
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I'm happy with no guns, afterall hardly anyone had them before and even less have them now. If people want to own illegal guns then so be it, they'll obtain them through illegal sources. I feel safer knowing that some disturbed loony who caresses their guns isn't going to point it at me. I'd sooner someone attack me with a knife than with a gun - at least you have a fighting chance against someone wielding a knife.
Those that still require guns, e.g. farmers, gamekeepers etc., still use shotguns, revolvers etc. for their work.
BTW Firearm offences include high powered air-rifles that are over the 12lb ft limit.
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replicant... well.. since you are frieghtened of guns then I guess that is good enough reason to ban them for everyone else. Face it... you disarmed yourselves and put the weak and law abiding at the mercy of the strong and lawless... What will you do when you get a little older and can't defend yourself against a couple of 6 footers with knives and clubs?
oh... and if you get shot by a .22 caliber rifle at 1,000 fps (air rifle) you will indeed have been shot... maybe dead.
lazs
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do you have any better sources? Fox, Newsmax and WorldNews arent exactly known for their fair and accurate reporting, catch phrases aside
what is next? drudge or limbaugh as a source?
how about an english source, or the actuall publication of the report?
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strk.. fox is no more or less accurate than cnn.. not saying much I know.
Everything I have seen shows british crime on the rise. Gun crime is also on the rise. you can blame it on whatever you want but the fact that guns were banned for law abiding citizens didn not make those citizens any safer....
lazs
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Originally posted by strk
do you have any better sources? Fox, Newsmax and WorldNews arent exactly known for their fair and accurate reporting, catch phrases aside
what is next? drudge or limbaugh as a source?
how about an english source, or the actuall publication of the report?
WOW libral tactic #3....attack the sources credibility to completly shift focus and ignore the content
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Originally posted by lazs2
replicant... well.. since you are frieghtened of guns then I guess that is good enough reason to ban them for everyone else. Face it... you disarmed yourselves and put the weak and law abiding at the mercy of the strong and lawless... What will you do when you get a little older and can't defend yourself against a couple of 6 footers with knives and clubs?
oh... and if you get shot by a .22 caliber rifle at 1,000 fps (air rifle) you will indeed have been shot... maybe dead.
lazs
Thought you'd like that :)
I don't make the laws but I'm quite content with them. BTW this is Britain's laws not America's, it's none of your business whether you like it or not because it simply has nothing to do with you. Britain has never had a gun culture, the regular Police force are still not armed, and the only general people that own weapons are the military and farmers.
Besides to say I am "frightened of guns then I guess that is good enough reason to ban them for everyone else" is purely weak since you don't know me at all. I had hoped to join a gun club myself having fired .303 Lee Enfields and pistols when I was younger but the laws were changed a couple of times, notably in 1987 when I was just 13 years old. I would have loved to have owned some guns and enjoy, what was, a strong sport. Times change though and you simply just get on with your life.
If people do choose to own a firearm then they simply join a gun club. Not all weapons were outlawed. Unlike the US there isn't anywhere that you can really use them apart from on the firing range and there was never anywhere to hunt with them. What's the point of a large calibre weapon when the only thing you can do is shoot a paper/metal target? Few people could keep their firearms at home unless it was certified safe and that all ammunition was kept locked elsewhere in the household. The majority were held in gun clubs or the local police station. Using the weapon for defence would most likely end up with you being found guilty and being prosecuted. As mentioned before, shotguns are still used throughout the UK (shotguns being included as one of the firearms offenses although you don't require a firearms certifcate but a shotgun certificate). People still enjoy game hunting too, unless you expected us to take a M60 out to shoot a few pheasants? :)
Face it... you disarmed yourselves and put the weak and law abiding at the mercy of the strong and lawless...
Well to start with all automatic weapons have always been banned. In subsequent years higher calibre guns were banned after loss of life to nutters thinking they were Rambo and deciding to have a killing spree.
So, disarmed ourselves, well, Joe Public were never really armed in the first place.
Putting the weak and law abiding at the mercy of the strong and lawless, well, as mentioned above, anyone attempting to defend themselves with a firearm would most likely be prosecuted more than the actual offender. That's Britain's laws for you whether you like it or not. We don't particularly like it too because defending with any other form of weapon you're made to look guilty too. We're all living in a country full of 'criminals are innocent if they're attacked whilst performing a crime'.
You have to remember, America's population have the right to bear arms, we don't and never have done in recent times. Arguing about such things is irrelevent because our laws won't change (to allow) and I very much doubt your laws will change to remove them. It's part of your culture, it's never been part of our culture.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
WOW libral tactic #3....attack the sources credibility to completly shift focus and ignore the content
Yeah? And what the heck does your statement have to do with Michael Moore winning the Palme d'Or? That's right...nothing. :aok
Honestly though, that tactic is used by people from all spectrums, neither liberal or conservative have exclusive rights to it.
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WTF does some stupid award for a dumb film I wont see have to do with this thread....that's right nothing?
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
WTF does some stupid award for a dumb film I wont see have to do with this thread....that's right nothing?
imo if you want to oppose the film you should see it because it gives any argument you make more credibility
re the sources - I dont ask for sources too often, and in this case I think if the claim is true it would have better documentation.
FOX gets the facts wrong too, and they are without doubt a mouthpiece for the GOP. For example the 70% some percent of FOX viewers that believed there was a pre-Iraqi AlQueda link that involved 9-11, even after Bush* himself stated there was no such link.
I don't mean to make the source of articles and such a partisan issue, otherwise I would post links from Buzzflash or DU which would mean about the same.
I'm not for more gun laws, although I am for enforcing the ones we have (except I do not like the mandatory sentences for any crimes). Fundamentally I do not have a problem with having to register weapons because I think it will help keep them out of the hands of criminals and would make it easy for police to confiscate any unregistered weapon.
All that aside - I have also heard and seen good sources that either homicides or gun-related fatalities are far lower in the UK than the US, per capita.
I own a Smith and Wesson 9mil but I do not have any fears that the government is going to take it because I trust in the constitution. I would not have a problem with registering my weapon.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
WOW libral tactic #3....attack the sources credibility to completly shift focus and ignore the content
That's hardly an exclusive "liberal" tactic around here.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
WTF does some stupid award for a dumb film I wont see have to do with this thread....that's right nothing?
It's going to change the country you live in.
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BTW this is Britain's laws not America's,
Replicant, forgive me. My post wasn't intended to discuss anything but that I do not feel gun control works. It was in NO way intended to be a slight on Great Britian, it's laws, or it's people. My apologies to anyone who perceived it as such and I hope this clears it up.
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Originally posted by Steve
Replicant, forgive me. My post wasn't intended to discuss anything but that I do not feel gun control works. It was in NO way intended to be a slight on Great Britian, it's laws, or it's people. My apologies to anyone who perceived it as such and I hope this clears it up.
Thank you Steve. Unfortunately crime is on the increase whether people have guns or not.
The ban on certain firearms was a knee jerk reaction to please the British public. The majority seem happy and given a referendum on the subject I'm positive that 98% would still vote against firearms.
Crime is just increasing... 20 years ago you could leave you bicycle unlocked outside anywhere and the chances are it would be safe for your return. Now everything is getting stolen, more criminal damage, assaults, murders etc. It's a simple sign-o-the-times unfortunately. No doubt in another 5 - 10 years time they'll be more crime. I honestly think that the lack of moral beliefs and poor unbringing disrespecting each other/and their properties is to blame. Parents/schools aren't strict enough, yet when they are they get into trouble. It's turning into a cushy environment for criminals/trouble makers and the government is wishy washy with purnishing those that offend.
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Originally posted by Steve
Crime did not fall in England after handguns were banned in January 1997. Quite the contrary, crime rose sharply. Yet, serious violent crime rates from 1997 to 2002 averaged 29 percent higher than 1996; robbery was 24 percent higher; murders 27 percent higher. Before the law, armed robberies had fallen by 50 percent from 1993 to 1997, but as soon as handguns were banned, the robbery rate shot back up, almost back to their 1993 levels.
Home Office source: http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page6.asp#The%20NCRS%20impact Understanding recorded crime statistics
It can be difficult to measure accurate trends in police recorded crime. The reasons for this include:
changes in the way police have been asked to record crimes
changes in people's attitudes to reporting crime
Understanding the chart
In 2002/03, there were 5,899,450 overall crime offences recorded by the police in England & Wales.
In 1998/99, the chart shows a break because new crime types were added to the list of recorded crimes.
In 2002/03, the chart shows a 7% rise on the previous year. In fact, there was a 3% fall when the NCRS impact is taken into account.
New crime types added
In April 1998, police were asked to start recording certain new offences under various crime categories.
Because these crime types were not among the overall list of recorded crimes before that date, the chart shows a break in 1998/99. It is not possible to draw direct comparisons before and after that date.
Back to top
The NCRS impact
In April 2002, the National Crime Recording Standard (NCRS) was introduced across police forces. Its purpose is:
to promote greater consistency in how police record crime
to take a more victim-led approach in recording crime - by recording alleged offences, as well as evidence-based ones
In many cases, the NCRS has led to an increase in recorded crime figures, making it look like more crimes were committed, when that might not be the case. (more...)
For a more accurate picture of overall crime trends across England & Wales, see ALL CRIME - British Crime Survey data.
Home Office source: http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/Page54.asp According to the BCS:
In 2002/03, the total number of crimes in England & Wales was around 12,308,000.
Total crime peaked in 1995, and has since fallen by 36%.
In 2002/03, 27% of the population were the victims of some type of crime.
This has fallen from a high in 1995 of nearly 40% of the population.
Originally posted by Steve
Meanwhile, gun crimes in Britain are increasing. According to London's authoritative Sunday Times, the number of firearm offenses in Britain increased almost 40 percent from 4,903 in 1997 to 6,843 in 2000. These are still small figures in comparison to the United States, but the trend is the opposite of what might be expected.
Home Office source: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/crime/guncrime/index.html Gun Crime & Firearms Controls
The current situation l What we’re doing about it l What you can do
The current situation
In some areas, gun crime is a major cause of fear and distress.
Most worrying is the rise in the number of young people carrying real or imitation firearms, either to boost their image, or from a misguided idea about self-protection. Some of this is linked to gang activity, which itself is linked to the illegal drug trade.
Contrary to public perception, the overall level of gun crime in this country is relatively low – less than half of 1% of all crime recorded by the police – and in the year ending 31 March 2003, there was:
a 16% reduction in homicides involving firearms
a 13% reduction in robberies involving firearms
Even so, we have seen an unacceptable rise in gun crime over recent years, and are doing everything we can to tackle it.
Steve seems to have fallen into the trap of believing news sources in one country which are reporting on news in another country. I learned the folly of that having lived in countries other than my own. I don't know what "Fox News" is. All my sources are British government documents issued by the Home Office.
Originally posted by Steve
Gun control does not work.
Gun control does work; it just doesn't work perfectly. The fact that it works at all is borne out by the relative low gun homicide rates in countries where privately owned guns are not allowed when compared with those of the USA in which there is no gun control to speak of and there are some 200 million guns floating around in private hands.
To say that "gun control does not work" is like saying that "tax laws don't work" because a relative handful of people fiddle their income taxes, or like saying that "speed limits don't work" because people still get caught doing 35mph in a 30 zone.
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Originally posted by Steve
Replicant, forgive me. My post wasn't intended to discuss anything but that I do not feel gun control works. It was in NO way intended to be a slight on Great Britian, it's laws, or it's people. My apologies to anyone who perceived it as such and I hope this clears it up.
No apology needed. But I must make one small correction to your spelling, as you are so fond of correcting that of other people: The word "it's" only ever means "it is". If you mean "belonging to it", the spelling is "its" - ie. no apostrophe.
Guess it's going to be one of those days when you'd like to wring my neck! :lol
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You're right Beet, of course. I considered making the correction myself. Honestly, I was too lazy to do so.
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Beet, I took a long look at the Home Office stats last night. I've got to run but we'll discuss it later.
Toodle pip.
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Originally posted by beet1e
The word "it's" only ever means "it is".
And of course also means 'it has'...... e.g. It's been a lovely day say what?! :)
BTW, How's it going Beet?
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In other words It aint working.
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Ahh gun control.
Every time I think of this subject I cant help but thing of the old TV Show "All in the Family"
Gloria is telling Archie how many people are killed with handguns each year. His responce is classic.
"Would it make you any happier little girl if they was thrown out of windows?"
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Originally posted by txmx
In other words It aint working.
No what has been demonstrated is an amazing ability to quote what is nothing more than a cheap online tabloid whose references when checked show the article is written totally out of context with the statistics (ie read beetles research/quotes from the actual reports above).
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Originally posted by Replicant
And of course also means 'it has'...... e.g. It's been a lovely day say what?! :)
Bah! You got me there - well done. ;) BTW, How's it going Beet?
Fine. Life is good.
BTW you know that Curval is here this week? We're meeting up on Friday in London. I know it's probably too far for you to come though. :(
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Originally posted by beet1e
Bah! You got me there - well done. ;) Fine. Life is good.
BTW you know that Curval is here this week? We're meeting up on Friday in London. I know it's probably too far for you to come though. :(
I would have liked to have made it but two people are off work so I'm having to cover their jobs. I'm down at Duxford on Wednesday night though (members evening) as they have the Lancaster III, Anson, Lightning, Hunter and Meteor all open to climb inside! :)
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
It's going to change the country you live in.
lol, sorry, I wasn't laughing at you, aw hell, yes I was :p
I'm sure that if I filmed myself taking a dump on the American flag I could win some sort of award at Cannes.
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Hey that's a good one... when the laws you pass increase crime.... change the way it is reported or simply claim that it was wrong in the past.
If you never arrested anyone or recorded any crimes that were reported then your silly gun laws could be said to have stopped crime altogether.
by the way they are reported now... crime is up since gun control of 96.
Australia is the same. It never works.
now, here in the U.S. ... When more people get concealed carry permits.... ALL crime goes down... people are so muich more polite.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Hey that's a good one... when the laws you pass increase crime.... change the way it is reported or simply claim that it was wrong in the past.
If you never arrested anyone or recorded any crimes that were reported then your silly gun laws could be said to have stopped crime altogether.
Ah yes, but I think the American way (ie YOUR way) is better. Crime goes up - homicides go up - so the solution you guys have adopted is to open your already porous borders to allow in armies of largely peaceable, law abiding migrants. As well as solving the busboy shortage at Denny's, this action swells the US population at a rate even higher than the rate of increase in crime. And then you can claim, as you have in the past, that crime "has gone down", by which you mean that the rate per capita has gone down, whilst total crime has actually gone up. :rolleyes: <-(one was only just enough)
I say again, gun control does work - even if not perfectly. Or else we would have about 40 million guns in circulation and an annual gun homicide tally of 2000-3000. Any increases/decreases you see are very small annual fluctuations.
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Originally posted by beet1e
I say again, gun control does work - even if not perfectly. Or else we would have about 40 million guns in circulation and an annual gun homicide tally of 2000-3000. Any increases/decreases you see are very small annual fluctuations.
If by gun control you mean denying guns to criminals while allowing law abiding citizens the right to own and even carry guns then yes, I agree, gun control does reduce crime. If you actually mean by gun control, gun elimination, then no, it doesn't reduce crime as the cited statistics so eloquently portray.
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Originally posted by Replicant
Thank you Steve. Unfortunately crime is on the increase whether people have guns or not.
The ban on certain firearms was a knee jerk reaction to please the British public. The majority seem happy and given a referendum on the subject I'm positive that 98% would still vote against firearms.
Crime is just increasing... 20 years ago you could leave you bicycle unlocked outside anywhere and the chances are it would be safe for your return. Now everything is getting stolen, more criminal damage, assaults, murders etc. It's a simple sign-o-the-times unfortunately. No doubt in another 5 - 10 years time they'll be more crime. I honestly think that the lack of moral beliefs and poor unbringing disrespecting each other/and their properties is to blame. Parents/schools aren't strict enough, yet when they are they get into trouble. It's turning into a cushy environment for criminals/trouble makers and the government is wishy washy with purnishing those that offend.
Crime is on the decrease here in Florida because the criminal element does not know which grandma is capable of popping a cap into his assetts. It has been safer in Florida since passing the landmark right to carry legislation. It could be for you also if you ever get your heads out of the sand. Perhaps then you won't find it necessary to have us ship our personal weapons over to you next time some eurodespot rears his ugly head.
Great troll BTW
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Originally posted by storch
Crime is on the decrease here in Florida because the criminal element does not know which grandma is capable of popping a cap into his assetts. It has been safer in Florida since passing the landmark right to carry legislation. It could be for you also if you ever get your heads out of the sand. Perhaps then you won't find it necessary to have us ship our personal weapons over to you next time some eurodespot rears his ugly head.
Pleased to hear of your crime decrease. But it had a long way to fall. And the rate of US homicides will always greatly exceed ours because of your gun culture.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Pleased to hear of your crime decrease. But it had a long way to fall. And the rate of US homicides will always greatly exceed ours because of your gun culture.
Really? :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl :rofl laughable
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Originally posted by AKIron
If by gun control you mean denying guns to criminals while allowing law abiding citizens the right to own and even carry guns then yes, I agree, gun control does reduce crime. If you actually mean by gun control, gun elimination, then no, it doesn't reduce crime as the cited statistics so eloquently portray.
What statistics? May I respectfully point out that you can't have gun crimes without guns. That is the stance that so many civilised countries of the world adopt, the US being a notable exception. So while our gun homicide tally has never exceeded 100 in any year, the US homicide tally has often topped 10,000 - 13,000+ in 1992. And most of these homicides involve handguns.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum. :aok
Storch, yes - really.
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Robbery has more than doubled in your country in the 10 years since your gun ban Beetle. Surely you can see the connection?
(http://www.inettek.com/stuff/robbery.JPG)
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What about homicide by other methods? What about rape? what about strong armed robbery? What about home invasion? What about a piece of crafted steel scares you so? Silly, Silly euros. And all of our conflicts oddly enough begin with you people. I'll refer you to Randy Newman's 1972 release of a song called "foreign policy" as my response to the lot of you. The error is your own, as usual.
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In the UK owning a firearm without the correct certification = firearm offence. No one injured, no crime other than ownership. I wonder how many offences are purely out of ownership rather than committing a assault.
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Originally posted by beet1e
What statistics? May I respectfully point out that you can't have gun crimes without guns. That is the stance that so many civilised countries of the world adopt, the US being a notable exception. So while our gun homicide tally has never exceeded 100 in any year, the US homicide tally has often topped 10,000 - 13,000+ in 1992. And most of these homicides involve handguns.
Quod Erat Demonstrandum. :aok
Storch, yes - really.
"Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense. (FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1992) -"
http://home.wi.rr.com/ccw4wi/nra.html
No need to get all respectful. ;)
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Originally posted by AKIron
Robbery has more than doubled in your country in the 10 years since your gun ban Beetle. Surely you can see the connection?
No, surely I do not, as the US (if the stats on the FBI website are to be believed) has never seen fewer than 400,000 robberies in any of the last 20 years. It reached a low in 2000 but is on the increase again. Source: http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_02/xl/02tbl01.xls
Britain's tally of robberies peaked in 2002, and is now decreasing. Source: http://www.crimestatistics.org.uk/output/page21.asp
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A recent swedish study shows that 9 out of 10 household burglaries are committed by drug addicts.
The amount of violent crime increases directly with the amount of alcohol / drug addicted persons. Drugs kill way more people yearly directly and indirectly than terrorism.
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Originally posted by AKIron
"Violent crime rates are highest overall in states with laws severely limiting or prohibiting the carrying of concealed firearms for self-defense. (FBI Uniform Crime Reports, 1992) -"
http://home.wi.rr.com/ccw4wi/nra.html
No need to get all respectful. ;)
Take care to avoid what Lazs does in all these gun posts - making the mistake of applying the US thesis to the UK model. I gain the impression that you feel the rise of certain crimes in Britain is because thousands/millions of law abiding Britons had their guns confiscated. Nope, it just isn't like that.
One of the problems when comparing US/UK crime rates is the population disparity of the two countries. It's easy to say "factor up the UK values" to get a "per 100,000 population" value for such statistics, but that overlooks the fact that Britain is largely an urban society, with the vast majority of folks living within 25 miles of large cities where most of the crime takes place. Compare that with the US where millions live in small, rural communities where everyone knows everyone. As Siaf points out in his post ^ the vast majority of household burglaries are committed by drug addicts. Where are the drug addicts and their points of supply? Big cities.
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replicant makes a good point... to simply own a firearm is a crime.
is that what we want? Put yourself in the place of a woman who has seen 3 rapes and 8 burglaries in the neighborhood she lives in or... an older couple who are infirm... buy a gun and go to prison or.... don't and maybe get maimed or worse.
thanks for all the freedom of choice england.
And beetle... I agree that out problems stem mostly from immigration and drugs but... What you gonna do? we aren't a little island that can keep out people and squash the freedom of those within... they might shoot at us if we do. Jefferson and company set it up that way.
lazs
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I don't know about England but I do know that several years ago the state of Florida had a horendous murder rate that was out of control. In a desperate attempt to get this under control they began allowing their law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons. It worked and was so successful many other US states have followed suit and have seen declines overall in crime as a result. Hard to argue with success.
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Jesus H, not this one again. :rolleyes:
To summarise:
(More Guns=less crime in the USA)!=(less guns=more crime in the UK)
Steve, please use the forum search feature to find the past threads where this one has been done to death, assuming that this is not some pointless troll and you are actually interested in the truth?
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Originally posted by AKIron
I don't know about England but I do know that several years ago the state of Florida had a horendous murder rate that was out of control. In a desperate attempt to get this under control they began allowing their law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons. It worked and was so successful many other US states have followed suit and have seen declines overall in crime as a result. Hard to argue with success.
That's exactly right.
We in South Florida were just coming out of the era of the "cocaine cowboys" and most shootings were drug related. (as they still are)
This lawless attitude spilled over into the "opportunity" neighborhoods and you had the "underpriviledged" arming themselves and jacking cars, invading homes, and other types violent crimes.
Once the shall issue permits were implemented all it took was about 6 months of justice meted out on the spot for the criminal element to change their ways.
They began to assault and murder european tourists. The tourists were easy to spot because rental automobiles had tags that ended in the letter Z. This once again changed when tags ending in Z were issued to leased vehicles. Some of our "victims of societal injustice" ended up on the pavement outlined in chalk so the Z tags were eliminated so that their civil rights would not be violated as they raped pillaged and murdered.
As it now stands prosecutors are enforcing the laws to their full extent. If you carry a firearm in the commission of a crime mandatory 5 year sentance, if anyone sees the firearm while in the commission of the felony 10 year mandatory, if you use the firearm in a display 25 year mandatory and if anyone is injured by a firearm during the commission of a felony mandatory life without parole.
The combination of an armed society coupled with vigorous prosecution has made our community much safer. It began by a sensible administration recognizing my right to self defense.
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Originally posted by AKIron
I don't know about England but I do know that several years ago the state of Florida had a horendous murder rate that was out of control. In a desperate attempt to get this under control they began allowing their law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons. It worked and was so successful many other US states have followed suit and have seen declines overall in crime as a result. Hard to argue with success.
Well good. In that scenario, you're applying the US thesis to the US model. I'm opposed to unilateral disarmament...
... but many other civilised countries around the world have seen the folly of an unlimited supply of guns, and the problem is tackled from a different angle. Take Bermuda, for example - where Curval lives. They had a problem which they were able to nip in the bud c1971. No more guns since then - and no more gun crimes. Like you say - hard to argue with success.
I've just had a phone call from Curval - he's arrived! I must get back to him...
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Did the UK crime rate go up after the '97 handgun ban? Yes.
Did the crime rate go up because of the handgun ban? No, unless you're asserting that a few thousand pistol shooting enthusiasts, most of whom already kept their weapons at their respective gun clubs & none of whom were permitted to carry a concealed weapon, were somehow between them holding back a crimewave in the years prior to the ban. Because if you're claiming a link between the ban and a rise in crime then that is what you're claiming.
Don't assume that the correlation that exists in the USA and that I am not seriously questioning holds true for the UK context. You can't compare the two, really.
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Momus - exactly right. And even if our gun crime went up, the fluctuations are too small to reflect an overall crime trend. By that, I mean that the number of gun related homicides has been between 50 and 100 for many years. So an increase from 50 to 100 would be a doubling of the homicide rate here, whereas in the US 50 gun homicides would be dismissed as a pittance, and a price worth paying for the right to own guns.
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well... I guess we will see just how smug you brits are when the zombies appear and yu are left holding nothin but your privates.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
well... I guess we will see just how smug you brits are when the zombies appear and yu are left holding nothin but your privates.
lazs
I thought those might be locked in safes at the clubhouse as well. Huh, goes to show that you do learn things on the intardnet.