Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: jodgi on May 23, 2004, 11:37:01 AM
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I'm repeating myself here, this post can be found toward the end of Kweassa's NPA thread. I just didn't feel my idea got enough attention ;)
There's been a lot of talk about those that play for score and rank, how many they are and their methods. The lack of variation in what people fly in the MA has also been discussed to death.
I'm one of those that would like to see more variation in planes. There are many ideas floating around, most of them "deny" people to choose freely. Kweassa's NPA idea is good, but many players don't like the idea of being "forced" in their choice of plane.
My idea is designed as an alternative or supplement to the NPA. What I think it will do is to make people up early and mid-war planes because they choose to. A choice based on motivation and not on "force".
I'm pro choice ;)
What about letting the ENY (or something like it) value of planes also affect the rank, in the same manner as perks.
Many players up "the best" planes in attempt to maximise their kills and survivability in order to get high rank. This clearly shows when you review the top contenders.
There is no difference (as far as I know) in score/rank between a kill by a C202 and a niki.
What if a kill in a C202 gave much more score/rank per kill than a niki kill? There are many people flying for rank in AH, and I am positive that many of them would change from their usual 51d, spit, lala and nikis and fly planes that would be better for score/rank.
This way people could choose how they want to play, noone would be forced in any way. We get more variation in the MA because people choose freely among "lesser" planes. Players who like to see themself land numerous kills can still choose to up a lala or niki without having to pay for it. People that don't care about rank can continue to not care. I can't see any serious hooks with such a system.
Imagine this on ch. 1:
"Ahhh, you P40B scoredweeb... up a good plane instead!"
Wouldn't that be something!
When I first started I wanted a lot of perks, so I learned to fly the planes that had high ENY value. Now I have more perks than I have use for, but I still fly those planes because they challenge me.
Dang! I think this is a very good idea!
What do you think?
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Yes! Very good idea. The system we have now, "forces" us to fly planes like P51, dora, spit niki lala...
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(Summary of an old post)
New stat: Perk ratio
A ratio of perks given vs perks earned.
So assume you fly a 202 and shoot down a niki, and then the same niki shoots you down. You earn six perks and give 0.16. Giving you a perk ratio of 37.5, and the niki a perk ratio of 0.02. (This is of course an extreme example, but it illustrates the way the stat favors the rarely used planes)
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when they close down AHI I will probly have around 20,000 perks. Unless I spend a whole day of my life helping nits "win" the war by doing really boring and unfun stuff for hours
in that case I will have 20,035 perks.
lazs
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I think the score/rank path will be more effective than perks
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this is a great idea jodgi! :aok
although i will continue to fly my little spit 5 becuase im brittish and i love it.
i fly others for chits and giggles but for when i pretend it is my life im playing with i will always play in my national pride.
the spitfire :)
rank be damned :)
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i was thinking the same thing exactly !
HT that will be a great thing to code in to AH2
:)
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jodgi - of course I agree with you!
I'd like to hear Tarmac's views. He gets a high fighter rank (top 100) without flying the P51/Spit/lala uber trio or any variants. And there aren't many of us who have done that. ;)
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I just assumed you not only get more perks when you get a kill in a "lesser" plane but got more points as well. This is incorrect?
If I kill a B17 formation w/ a 202 I certainly would expect more points than if I killed it w/ a tiffie. I'll admit that I expect this only from a logical standpoint.....what good are points anyway?
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Yea, you get more perks based of the ENY of the plane you are flying.
So if you kill a P-51 in a 109E, you get 5.5 perks (55 / 10), if you kill a P-51 in an La-7, you get 1.2 perks (12 / 10).
You get the same number of points no matter what plane you are in. You get more points for landing, less for dying.
Points are the last sub-category in all the categories (fighter, bomber, attack, GV).
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Originally posted by beet1e
jodgi - of course I agree with you!
I'd like to hear Tarmac's views. He gets a high fighter rank (top 100) without flying the P51/Spit/lala uber trio or any variants. And there aren't many of us who have done that. ;)
Does flying a Tiffie or G10 count?
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or a dee dee 9 ?
lazs
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From what I understand:
Perks are affected by which plane you fly and shoot down.
Score/rank/points are not.
Correct me if I'm wrong.
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I've got to agree with this idea. It would definately work. It would put the better pilots in the lesser planes, they would do some amazing things in them, land many kills, and encourage others to also try them. I've always contended that a great fighter pilot in Aces High could rank highly in just about any plane.
The simple fact is, perks in and of themselves are not a strong enough motivator to diversify plane choices. Like many, many others I can count the number of times I've flown a perk plane on one hand, so have a bazillion perks already. Making kills in inferior planes more statistically significant would make them appeal to those types that fly the big 4 almost exclusively. For those who do fly perk planes or already do take advantage of lesser planes in the set, it would just be business as usual.
I've thought about Jodgi's idea and cannot come up with a single effect this would have that could in any way be construed as having a negative impact on the game or gameplay. I hope HiTech reads this. Although this change would be subtle and not incredibly important to a significant demographic of the AH population it could have a profound effect on the 'feel' of the MA in a very positive way. Diversifying encounters in the MA is the key to keeping the game interesting and fresh, preventing that same 'ole, same 'ole run-on burn-out feeling everyone suffers from time to time.
Zazen
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Originally posted by _Schadenfreude_
Does flying a Tiffie or G10 count?
Yeah, go on then. ;) Lazs too, with a Dee 9. :aok
I think any change right now, which breaks the uber trio/pork-n-auger monotony and changes the pattern of gameplay, would be good. But that's about to happen - with AH2...
... just last night, a P51 tried some gamey crap with me - I think it was a bounce with a very long range shot. Whatever it was, it didn't work. I told the guy his gamey crap would not work in AH2. Got no reply. Instead, he ran away as fast as he could.
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points for when they add an H pony.
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Put me down as another vote FOR this system, just as I am for almost all of Kweassa's ideas for the game.
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Originally posted by beet1e
Yeah, go on then. ;) Lazs too, with a Dee 9. :aok
I think any change right now, which breaks the uber trio/pork-n-auger monotony and changes the pattern of gameplay, would be good. But that's about to happen - with AH2...
... just last night, a P51 tried some gamey crap with me - I think it was a bounce with a very long range shot. Whatever it was, it didn't work. I told the guy his gamey crap would not work in AH2. Got no reply. Instead, he ran away as fast as he could.
Well my 5p's worth is that I think the gunnery has changed a lot - if you were any good aiming in AH1 it's not too difficult but most people now sit on yr six blazing away and not hitting anything - it's quite refreshing actually.
I have to get down to 400 yds for an easy shot these days and closer for a lot of deflection....and I made 82nd in fighter points in a tiffie last tour...or was it the one bfore last...anyway...it's a LOT harder and the spins are fun too!
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All this is completely based on the notion that one would give a crap as to their rank and the need for perks to fly perk planes.
Most that fly the planes that nobody wants them to fly, the majority of them have a crap rank in the first place, and would continue having a crap rank just the same.
What would compell them to get out of these planes ? That is the 64 BILLION dollar question.
I still have yet to get upset over what someone else flys.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
What would compell them to get out of these planes ? That is the 64 BILLION dollar question.
Well perk points worked for the F4U-1C. And yet I don't understand why. I think of the CHog as a net earner of points rather than being a PP liability. I guess the folks who were deterred by the PP pricing were the S&P lamers.
Schad - Grunherz was my 109 mentor for the 30mm spud cannon. 150 yards is about as far out as I would want to be before firing. So 400 yards sounds like a luxury!
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Only scorepotatos would find a plane-based scoring system attractive. As a bunch of scorepotatos flying around in P-40s rather than P-51s would make for substantially easier killing opportunities, I'm all for it.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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You are SO right Slapshot,
BUT
Apparently many care for rank, many players seek out the things that will improve their rank, planewise and gamewise. Today the "best" planes are used by many that play for rank, with this unintrusive system they would choose other planes to pad their score.
I bet we would get SOME to look for other rides than the abundant "best" planes, that is all I see this idea will accomplish. We would hopefully get an arena with a little more diversity.
We're not upset over what people fly, some of us just feel it would be more fun with more planemodels in the MA. Is that so bad to wish for?
Check out the stats of those that score high on rank, it is safe to say there is a trend toward usage of the "best" planes.
The target demographic will not be those with crap rank/skill (not implying those are tightly related), but those that would do good in "lesser" planes but stay in the "best" to maximise score.
The current perk, score and killmessage systems already motivate people choose certain planes, this is not a new concept. This idea would hopefully distribute the motivation more evenly over the planeset.
If you don't care for score, if you don't care for perks or if you don't mind the overabundance of certain planes, I don't expect you to see any worth in this system.
At least I'm not suggesting taking choice away from players, this little thing is completely harmless.
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jodgi,
Well, the recent unveiling of how some achive their "rank" has probably taken the impetous for a lot of players playing for rank and thrown it out the window.
I guess Lev's point, for the real hardcore scorepotato, they will choose these other rides and see where they really stand when it comes to fighting Air to Air ... could be very interesting.
I am not against the idea. I guess anything would be worth a try.
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For arguments sake let's say 20% of the players care about their fighter rank. Now let's say this change would cause just half of those to fly the under-utilized planes in the set instead of the big four they usually fly. Keep in mind, those who play with fighter rank in mind are probably players who tend to log more hours per month, being serious aviation hobbyist types. Without checking Inno's site I think it was 40% of all MA fighter kills are with the Big 4? We can then deduce that the fighter rank potatos are accounting for a substantial chunk of those kills.
So... it doesn't take a math genius to realize this change could have the potential to put alot of people, and more importantly alot of good flyers who fly alot into a much more diverse planeset.
Now, even if you could give a rats mangy arse about fighter rank, right away the MA just became a more evenly matched, interesting and diverse place to while away your discretionary free-time.
Zazen
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Originally posted by Zazen13
For arguments sake let's say 20% of the players care about their fighter rank. Now let's say this change would cause just half of those to fly the under-utilized planes in the set instead of the big four they usually fly. Keep in mind, those who play with fighter rank in mind are probably players who tend to log more hours per month, being serious aviation hobbyist types. Without checking Inno's site I think it was 40% of all MA fighter kills are wtih the Big 4? We can then deduce that the fighter rank potatos are accounting for a good chunk of those kills.
So... it doesn't take a math genius to realize this change could have the potential to put alot of people, and more importantly alot of good flyers who fly alot into a much more diverse planeset.
Now, even if you could give a rats mangy arse about fighter rank, right away the MA just became a more evenly matched, interesting and diverse place to while away your discretionary free-time.
Zazen
Keep talkin' ... sounds better all along.
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As well as those players who fly the "über trio" to gain rank (and there are many - just browse the stats of the top 100 for any tour) there are others who feel the need to fly an über plane of their own in order to have a chance against the über trio. That's another reason why there are so many. A third reason is that there are many noobs who feel the need to fly the fastest/best climbing/best turning etc. in order to get results. And that's why the UT of planes are the ones killed most often - they're being flown by noobs/dweebs. Think of any AH pilot you admire or know well. Then look at their career stats (http://www.innomi.com/ahkillstats/careerstats.php) to see what planes they have killed the most. I guarantee that the P51/Spit9/LA7 will be amongst the top 5 fighter planes killed. The message being shouted from the rooftops by these stats is that the game is seriously out of whack, and is in need of a new initiative such as Kweassa's New Perk Agenda.
I don't fly the UT itself, but I can hardly expect to succeed in early war planes like Spit-1, 109E or P40 when my most likely encounter will be against the UT. I have only 2 career deaths to the Spit-1, 1 to the P40, and none at all to the 109E. Surely the pilots of these planes become dispirited when the arena is loaded against them, and give up?
And that's why I laugh when I see people clamouring for new planes to be brought to AH. Why bother? What impact did the P40 have? Until Kweassa's NPA or an RPS is introduced, or some other scoring initiative is acted upon, the game will continue to feature walls of P51/LA7/Spit9.
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It seems that Kweassa's NPA will be a bit hard to sell to HTC, since many players feel that choice is taken away. There will always be trouble when perking the likes of the P51D or spit9.
RPS is out of the question for HTC, so I heard.
We need other ideas.
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I can't believe I never thought of this before! :P
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I love to see my name in lights. "Insert name.. landed 7 kills in a FW190A8." then you get a few wtg's... F the score, and perkies becuase they are there just to get waisted. It seems the "talented" pilots with lots of perkies never use them.. Why is that. If you have 15k in fighter perks, can I have some? I never go over the price of a jet for some reason.. Maybe I should learn to fly the jet's... LOL Just my thouhgts even though no one cares..
SkipNutz
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Originally posted by T1loady
I love to see my name in lights. "Insert name.. landed 7 kills in a FW190A8." then you get a few wtg's...
Off topic, but has anyone else noticed how often you see "wtg"s when somebody lands one or two kills and nothing mentioned when others land 7-9 right in front of or behind them? I figure some of them are noobs being (rightfully so) encouraged for the accomplishment, others may be squad mates bring attention the their squad name in lights. Either explanation is of course fine.
Maybe I spend too much time watching the buffer and not scanning the horizon, but these big maps make for some long commutes. I was just kinda curious if others see the pattern too.
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I find that I have a much harder time fighting the early war planes than I do the late. For example, I seem to be fresh meat for a c202, spit V, p40, etc. However, if I encounter a 51, F4 anything, or a 190, I will most likely kill them (or maybe it just feels that way cause I meet so many of them). Keep in mind that I can't fly the 51 or 190 so maybe this is why I don't understand why they are considered uber. Also, it could be because the few early war planes I see are flown by capable pilots. It just seems to me that if I am in a LA7 and I encounter a spit V for example, the odds are with the V.
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Don't we already have this?
If I fly an A6M-2 all tour I would get tons of points. Points are one of the factors used to figure your rank. Would the increase in points be enough to compensate for the lower kills/time and kills/sortie I would likely suffer? Indeed, would I even get more points overall because I'm only shooting down half as many planes as compared to my flying a LA7?
What I am trying to say is that don't we already have what you folks are asking for? Perhaps there just needs to be a bigger point ratio between low and high ENY planes?
Or am I missing something?
g00b
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Originally posted by g00b
Don't we already have this?
If I fly an A6M-2 all tour I would get tons of points. Points are one of the factors used to figure your rank. Would the increase in points be enough to compensate for the lower kills/time and kills/sortie I would likely suffer? Indeed, would I even get more points overall because I'm only shooting down half as many planes as compared to my flying a LA7?
What I am trying to say is that don't we already have what you folks are asking for? Perhaps there just needs to be a bigger point ratio between low and high ENY planes?
Or am I missing something?
g00b
I am with you, I think lol. When I get in a lala its not because of my score. Its because I am lazy and want to get to my destination fast. If I get in NIKI again it is not for scoring. Its because my aim sucks and I need the extra ammo load to stay in the game longer before rtb for amo. I think you will find that is the case with more people. Scoring is not the only reason to fly a late war plane. One more example, if I see buffs comming in at 10K, I will jump in a G10 to clim fast and have the firepower of the 30mm to do some damage.
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about what g00b is asking...
Does anybody know the whole picture on planes, points and score?
It seems to me that a kill of a 202 by a niki is pretty much the same as the other way around, rank/scorewise.
I can't tell fur sure though.
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Originally posted by beet1e
jodgi - of course I agree with you!
I'd like to hear Tarmac's views. He gets a high fighter rank (top 100) without flying the P51/Spit/lala uber trio or any variants. And there aren't many of us who have done that. ;)
Wouldn't change what I fly too much. I'd still mostly fly my 109g2 and 190a8.
If it leads to more variety (ie early/mid war) in planes in the arena, it might make the 190a5 and 109f4 more competitive - which I'd love.
If it gets a few scorepotatos into less uber planes, I'm all for it.
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Originally posted by jodgi
about what g00b is asking...
Does anybody know the whole picture on planes, points and score?
It seems to me that a kill of a 202 by a niki is pretty much the same as the other way around, rank/scorewise.
I can't tell fur sure though.
Fighter Air Points = Planedamage + Killscore
(Plane Damage = Damage to PLanes * Death Multiplier
Killscore = Airkills*1 + Airassist*0.25)
Soooo, score in fighter is relative to the damage inflicted, kills/assists scored and whether you land,bail, ditch etc. giving no bias or preference to plane type in any way, shape or form. Therefore, the easy mode planes are easier to get more score with, generally speaking. The whole idea of this thread is to change the score formula to something like this....
Fighter Air points = Planedamage + Killscore * Enemy value of plane you are in
Or something along those lines, whereby the same enemy value each plane has that garners you more perk points for kills while flying the lower performace rides would also grant you a substantial bonus in fighter score making flying them worthwhile for a score conscious person.
Zazen
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I never understood how that worked before, thanks!
So... currently, if I want to get more FAP (Fighter Air Points) I can simply do more damage to a plane I have already disabled before it hits the ground?
Man I am so disillusioned now, I had always thought the FAP had some correlation with the ENY values.
I absolutely 100% support you guys!
g00b
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Originally posted by dedalos
It just seems to me that if I am in a LA7 and I encounter a spit V for example, the odds are with the V.
I think that's partly because of some SpitV pilots gaming the game. In AH1, the SpitV cannon has incredible range and single ping capability. So lots of those guys slide to the side on your pass, then acquire you as a target at 600, 700yards or more. I think it's BS, and I don't think such tactics are going to work in AH2.
See my whine thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118059) in the gameplay forum.
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Originally posted by g00b
I never understood how that worked before, thanks!
So... currently, if I want to get more FAP (Fighter Air Points) I can simply do more damage to a plane I have already disabled before it hits the ground?
Man I am so disillusioned now, I had always thought the FAP had some correlation with the ENY values.
I absolutely 100% support you guys!
g00b
Another positive side effect integrating the ENEMY value of your plane into the Fighter point calculation would have is to make someone who could only fly say 25 hours a camp be able to have a comparable score with someone who flew 100 hours a camp. If the person who flew 100 hours a camp did it all in the La7 he would have traditional fighter score X 10. The other person flying only 25 hours could do it all in the p40e and get traditional fighter score X 40. Therefore, a bad pilot with no life would have a fighter point total roughly equal to a great pilot willing to fly lesser planes who still wanted to maintain a life. (I'm guessing at the enemy values from memory, but that's close enough for illustration purposes). So, more food for thought.
Zazen
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Originally posted by beet1e
I think that's partly because of some SpitV pilots gaming the game. In AH1, the SpitV cannon has incredible range and single ping capability. So lots of those guys slide to the side on your pass, then acquire you as a target at 600, 700yards or more. I think it's BS, and I don't think such tactics are going to work in AH2.
See my whine thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=118059) in the gameplay forum.
Keep in mind if they are doing that, they must do alot of spraying so only get 1 or 2 kills a hop if they are lucky. Dispersion on a fleeing target at that range is killer on yer ammo load.
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Here's an idea that Toad came up with once.....at least I believe it was Toad:
"Fly what you like and like what you fly. Don't worry about what the other guy chooses to fly. Have fun...it is after all just a game."
If the perk multiplier isnt "persuading" folks to fly early war planes maybe it proves that folks just dont want to fly early war planes. Saying that we are being "forced" to fly late war planes is ridiculous. Look at MiniD....he flies around in the P40 alot and racks up kills left and right. Its not the plane....its the pilot.
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Don't perk the planes or the pilots. Perk the pilots plane !
As an example once you get 30 kills in one type of plane or vehicle it starts costing you a reasonable amount of perks. For every 10 kills after that it costs you more & more.
Definately perk bomber formations.
The present perk costs , I think, should stay just perk the type of plane/vehicle in regards to the number of kills you get with it.
Hell I don't mind if my 109f is perked after I get 30 kills but then again I rarely fly any perk planes.
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why womba!?
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Well jodji for one it would encourage people to climb OUT of that la7 or 109G10 after 30 kills & grab a new ride.
For guys who only fly an hour or so a day its no big problem.
But it would encourage diversity in what planes are being flown.
It would be hardest on those planes that there are no varients for. P38, KI- 61, Nik,
etc. Could be done either in # of kills per plane or # of sorties.
It would change gameplay, would be fun to see it in action once, see how it would play out.
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Originally posted by Ghosth
It would change gameplay, would be fun to see it in action once, see how it would play out.
I'm not sure that would fly. I like the creativity though, and I'm willing to try out new ideas just like you said to see how they play out.
The whine will be from those who fly 90%+ of their sorties in one plane type, this would penalize them rather harshly. Personnaly I mix up my rides a lot and also seldom fly more than a hundred sorties a tour so it seems it would benefit me. Thats where the rub is, anything that helps one guy and hurts another will be b1+ched about all over this BBS and ch1 (which was off in the AH2 MA last night BTW) endlessly.
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The real question is what HTC thinks about this.
Would they want to motivate people to fly seldomly used planes?
Do they think it is good for their game to have a more diverse fleet of aircraft (in use)?
All I know is that they have said they don't want to deny people popular planes (at least as little as possible).
So I thought up an idea that doesn't conflict with the one thing I know about HTC's policy on this.
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Not to single you out but this was a good spot to address the questions:
Originally posted by sling322
Here's an idea that Toad came up with once.....at least I believe it was Toad:
"Fly what you like and like what you fly. Don't worry about what the other guy chooses to fly. Have fun...it is after all just a game."
A catchy phrase, but with a fundamental flaw in the logic. This is a multiplayer game, ie. what you fly determines what another will have as a target. Hence, by definiton and a lot of hard design work, what other players do indeed quite directly impact other players and other players fun (else why fly online at all?). Would be a great saying for golf maybe.
If the perk multiplier isnt "persuading" folks to fly early war planes maybe it proves that folks just dont want to fly early war planes. Saying that we are being "forced" to fly late war planes is ridiculous. Look at MiniD....he flies around in the P40 alot and racks up kills left and right. Its not the plane....its the pilot. [/B]
Whether he would care or not, and I suppose you are saying he would not, interestingly you missed that MiniD would have seen quite a bit of a jump in his score - (even though he was flying about 1/2 late war too) and that was the original subject of this thread.
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If you dont like what the other guy is flying then go shoot at target drones offline. What gives you the right to force others to fly what you want them to? This is the same flawed logic that comes up when guys mention rolling plane sets. It may bring more diversity to the arena, but it forces someone to play another's way. Like I said before....
Fly what you like and like what you fly. Dont worry about what everybody else is flying.
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currently enjoying an extended run of crap in just about anything, make 'em all sopwith camels makes no difference to me personally
Achttag
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Originally posted by sling322
If you dont like what the other guy is flying then go shoot at target drones offline. What gives you the right to force others to fly what you want them to? This is the same flawed logic that comes up when guys mention rolling plane sets. It may bring more diversity to the arena, but it forces someone to play another's way. Like I said before....
Fly what you like and like what you fly. Dont worry about what everybody else is flying.
Did you even read the original post?
This has NOTHING to to with "do not like".
This has NOTHING to do with "force".
The Toad mantra will be alive and kicking with this system in use. Guys that adhere to the mantra will never even notice my humble little idea if it was to be included in AH2.
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My comment was more aimed toward the folks that want to perk a plane after you have so many kills in it.
As far as your idea....well it would only affect the score potatos now wouldnt it? I could care less....the only thing score is good for is letting you control a CV....whoopee.