Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: RAM on March 29, 2000, 04:58:00 PM
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Lets see...In WWII, German experten discovered that the best way to kill a B-17 was to headon it...the fast aproach and the weak front weapons in B17 would make those passes fairly secure for the fighters...when B17G came, the weapons were a bit more dangerous but the difficult aiming of the gunners did make those passes very deadly still.
OK.Nice. This night I was coming to F17 to land, when I saw a VERY LOW (5K or less) buff coming directly for me. I retracted landing gear, and started filming...because I had a bad feeling of what was going to come.
I headoned the B17, from 1K I got steady and HEAVY hits on left wing...the wing blewed when I was 300 yds away. And I lost wing and EXPLODED 2 seconds later.
WELL...who says now 50 cals are PORKED? who says that aiming in B17 ISNT EASY?...why does Fw190 blow up in a Headon (again it had armor because BUFFS)?...Headons were difficult,but secure for the fighters because the short time to aim, but the B17s gunners had worse situation.
I have film on this.only 50Kb. I have the proof, and note that I turned film on because I knew what was going to happen.
SO! before next time a Buff-driver says that his guns are sooooo porked, think in this:
IF I CANT HEADON A B17 with a Fw190...what I am supposed to do???? heh?
SO, after all, Buff's death ray is still there.
Nice...really NICE!
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Ram, out
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
(http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/images/Ram.gif)
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If you were low and slow approaching the buff from the front, its no better then a six approach. Hes got 5 50cals firing forward, Basically you HOd a P51.
The HO that the germans used was a full speed diving HO, was yours? did you have all 6 guns loaded? Lots of germans died using the correct tactic too.. There are no shure solutions only best ones. If your gunnery is up to it the best approach is a 2 or 10 high attack, the cockpit or wing root is at your center of mass, and all the shots the buff have at you are tracking shots. You are also in a great position for a second run if required.
Another characteristic of the defensive fire of buffs is that once they have you lined up, they get a high % of pilot kills. This is just a side effect of the coordinated gunnery model of the buff. Sounds like thats what happend to you.
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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I had 4 20mm cannons with 450 rounds left...so I had ammo on ALL cannons,and the 13mms too, of course
I saw him from 7K and I was higher so I could accelerate before the attack. The headon happened at more than 300mph IAS,and he wasnt slow,too.
and, before I died, pilot death or whatever, my wing was ripped off, ENTIRE wing...so I was ded anyways. I stand in what I said. THIS IS WEIRD!
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That was the B-17E and F the Germans found that on. The G was built specificly to address that problem by adding the chin turret. By and large it was successful and the head on attacks on our 'Forts was reduced greatly. The B-17 in AH is the G.
Still sounds improbable that a lone 17 could defend itself from a fighter. Historicly the 17s used box formations to maximize fire.
Sisu
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I wonder what it looked like from the buff's POV. He may well have been lighting you up like a Christmas tree for quite a while before you got his wing. Netlag may account for the delay.
Last night I bounced a B-26 from dead 6 and shot off both his wings. He continued to fly, fuselage only, for several seconds, racking up pings until he finally PK'd me. I assume that I was dead before his wings came off but netlag didn't let my FE know about it.
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Aiming the guns in the bombers is very easy. If a bandit isn't pulling G-s I can light him up from 1200 yds on in. He might get some pings on me but he is going to die.
In real life it was harder to hit a fighter than a bomber because the fighter is a smaller target.
In here they are both bloody easy to hit. But the fighter is weaker, and usually dies.
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cc Thats my point, funked...thats what I call "god's death ray" whatever a buff wants to hit, he hits it...
TURN THE DAMNED AIMING DOWN!!!..then give them theyr so-wanted-durability...I repeat...if I get killed by a buff in a headon pass on a fw190 ,then I'd better go drinking beer!
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-29-2000).]
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RAM-
I might add the purpose of the head-on attack was to possibly kill some buffs, but mainly to break up the box formations. Once the sick cow was cut from the herd it was much easier to drag down. The mortars carried by the 190's are for this purpose. Disrupting the bomber streams also lessened their effectiveness.
Head-on attacks weren't necessarily safe, they were simply better than the other options. Besides, can you imagine being a bomber pilot staring down the cannons of 12 190's? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
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As someone else mentioned,,, the Head ON attacks developed by the luftwaffen, was against the B-17 E and F models which did NOT have the firepower in the nose of the B-17 G
generally as funked said, I can lite up a fighter coming in at around 1200....
On occassions I've been "ON" and started getting pings at 1800.. I've blew em up at 1600 on 2 occassions.
Hardest attacks to thwart are the diagonal slash attacks.
Headon's, and Six oc attacks are bread and butter for me..... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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GreyBeard, Squadron Leader
Commander, "E" Flight, Aces High
Senior Staff Council
"The Skeleton Crew"
"Fly with Honor"[/i]
"Keepin' the Faith"
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LOL! here we go again with the "my airplane is armored" theory
RAM I challenge you to find any diagram or description of a Fw190 that had its wings armored, in any way shape or form.
Maybe and just maybe, the A8's specifically designed for ramming Bombers might have had a specially reinforced wing, but I would be really suprised.
Yes the Fw190 was a tough fighter, but that is in comparision to other aircraft, not to armored fight vehicles.
Thats like saying that a Fosters Beer can is more difficult to crush than a Budweiser Beer can. Yes it may be true, but both are still beer cans !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Basically we are flying large aluminum cans.
Now say it with me RAM (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My fighter is NOT a Panzer, My fighter is NOT a Panzer ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Please don't take this as an insult RAM, cause I am playing with you. I am just trying to make everyone realize that aircraft are very delicate machinery.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Ahem...only difference between B17F and G was the nose turret,that added one 12.7mm MG to the forward firing arc of the B17; and slightly less speed because the drag and weightof the turret.
SO:if you are telling me that THAT ONLY MG turned the before terrifing vulnerable HO firing arc into a MORTAL one...LOL! ROTFL!...
difference was ONE MG...and excuse me but frontal attacks were developed until the end of the war, except by rocket and jet fighters. B17G was less vulnerable to HO, but still was VERY weak because the great difficult aiming because the closing speeds involved. In AH that speed doesnt disturb buff gunnery at all!! to say that a HO attack is as problematic for a fighter as a 6-o clock-one, is to GIVE ME THE REASON!!!!!
I dont say I must kill every bomber that I headon...I say that I can do a BIG ammount of damage,while I can perfectly survive because the armor of my 190, and the difficult gunner aiming that B17 historically had. Yesterday's death has pissed me off so much that I doubt I never will attack a buff never again...and If I do a HO in a 190 to a buff and I get killed in such a weird way I'll close my account at once. and that is a promise
Verm, Fw190A-8 series were heavy armored planes, designed with buff hunting on mind. It was a tough plane already, and with the add of the armor, was really tought to destry by a buff. Fw190's wings were VERY strenghtened on A-5or A-6 series (i dont remember it very well), so the wing structure was a strong one.
Anyway this discussion about damage is useless.I dont say my wing hasnt to break (well I say it, but I'll let it go for now). I say that buffs guns CANT HIT as they ARE HITTING NOW!!!...even the ack is easier to evade!!!!!!!!!!...in a HO they cant aim that way,so accurate, and the one who doesnt agree then knows VERY few about turret gunning. I am saying that right now B17s and B26 have death rays that makes them fire as Star destroyer's Turbolasers!!!!...and wait when next release comes...if the fall of the bullet will decrease, then whe have on the corner 2.0 Kills, megaAck carrying buffs, and so...
I hope I am wrong...but this is not going to get better...this is going to be FAR worse in 1.02 unless they turn down long range shooting and Mega-buff-god's death ray (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 03-30-2000).]
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He,he Ram,
calm down & work on your flying style concerning buff hunting.
As funked said : Don't attack in a straight line, be a movin target
as long as possible and then shoot em to paradise (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
blitz
[This message has been edited by blitz (edited 03-30-2000).]
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RAM, you can't expect to be invulnerable when HOing a bomber. And remember the aiming problems caused by closure rate affected both parties.
Vermillion, note armor in wings in pic below. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~m-waltz/sturmbock.jpg)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 03-30-2000).]
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Originally posted by RAM:
SO! before next time a Buff-driver says that his guns are sooooo porked, think in this:
IF I CANT HEADON A B17 with a Fw190...what I am supposed to do???? heh?
SO, after all, Buff's death ray is still there.
Nice...really NICE!
Very simple answer, Fly the HogC like the majority of the people in the game! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) If you had been in a HogC you would not have taken any damage and the buff would have exploded before your eye's at about 1.0 away from you. Well out of the range of the buff's nerfed .50's.
[/sarcasm off]
RAM do you every fly buffs? If you don't give it a try sometime.
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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the reason buffs lethal from front in here is from those 2 cheek guns...
the fire directly forward but should not be able to do that at all
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Just a historical note, the "nose guns" of a B-17 were manned by the Navigator and Bombadier (not the best at gunnery for sure) and so the B-17 should be vunerable from HO attacks (if the poor gunnery of the gunners is modeled in the sim)????
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Ummmm.... Funked your picture proved my point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maybe and just maybe, the A8's specifically designed for ramming Bombers might have had a specially reinforced wing, but I would be really suprised.
Isn't the Sturmbock the special bomber ramming model??
And the standard A8 (which is what we have isn't it??) doesn't have any armor in the wings.
And the armor in the Sturmbock isn't there to protect the wing, its there to protect the 30mm HE shells, at least according to the caption. So how would that armor plate protect you from losing a wing?
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Just a historical note, the "nose guns" of a B-17 were manned by the Navigator and Bombadier...
Not according to my 82 yr old grandfather, a chin and waist gunner on a B-17G of the 549th Bomb Squadron, 385th Bombardment group(H), Eighth AF. He was his plane's armorer, responsible for making sure all of the guns were properly working. He said he rotated between the waist position and the chin position during his tour. Maybe each group did things differently, though. So we could both be right. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"
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Finally a picture that shows that the normal 190 A8 was not heavily armoured. That is no more armour than a spit or 51. So without the outer wing guns what is the advantage of an A5 again? Those 2 13mm dont weigh that much more than 2 7.92s.....
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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew
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--- Vermillion: ---
Isn't the Sturmbock the special bomber ramming model??
--- end ---
There was no such thing as a Fw 190A specifically designed for ramming purposes. AFAIK there was only one mission flown with its purpose to bring bombers down by ramming which was flown on April 7, 1945 by Sonderkommando Elbe. But yes the lower of Funked's pictures is of a Fw 190A-8 meant for attacking bomber formations.
Now for the best part, the Sturm planes oft made staffel strong formation approach from the _rear_. Which is more or less suicidal with the AH gunner settings. In the same book as funked took the pictures from, Walther Hagenah sais that the staffel might lose 1 or 2 aircraft doing such approach. 2 planes out of 16! In AH it would be much more like 2 out of 16 might survive attacking so strong bomber formation.
//fats
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I've HO'd several B17s. I originally tried it because escorts virtually prohibited any other pass- and it worked. After several subsequent successes, I now view the B17 HO as a potentially viable attack plan- one which I intend certainly to investigate further. I don't have any problems with the alleged God's death ray unless I send my firing pass in on God's telegraph. Those that have trouble with bombers ought to fly them more so as to see from the inside what gives a gunner trouble.
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Verm:
"So how would that armor plate protect you from losing a wing?"
The diagram doesn't show it, but the main spar is less than a foot behind that 20mm plate.
Sure it's a very small region of coverage, but it is SOME coverage. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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I concur with Fats - There was not a ramming model of the Fw 190. The armored variants were employed by Sturmstaffel pilots who took a vow to ram if they couldn't kill the bomber with guns. But the plane was not designed for ramming.
The image I provided shows an Fw 190A-8/R8 aircraft which combined extra armor and MK 108 installation in the outer wings. R2 aircraft had the MK 108 mods without armor, and R7 aircraft had the fuselage armor but no MK 108.
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A couple of nights ago, I got 3 HO kills on 17's in a 190. The best way I found to do this is in the afore mentioned HO dive. All 3 times, I came in weaving a bit, from between 1 and 3 o'clock high, though not high enough to risk tearing a wing on my next move, making gunner try to track me. I actually dropped slightly below the 17's alt and pulled up hard at very close distance. With all cannons and mg (20's and 13, no 30) I blew apart the right side wing root (can never remember port and starboard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ), and did so while almost totally blacked out. It took a reasonably short burst, and I sustained NO damage. Needless to say, the adrenaline rush was intense. Will this work every time? Absolutely not, but the 190 driver must use angle, speed, and impact point choice to his advantage. If the buff gunner is having to keep up with you, he will have to be quite good to hit you with these movements/angles. I have NEVER downed a 17 in one pass like this reliably any other way, usually relying on the dive, park, hose, dive tactic that works about 50 percent of the time. Remember too... a 17 is a large target. Shooting to center of mass means there are two vital areas (pilot and wing root), but they are surrounded with basically non-essential material such as cockpit shell, nose gunner's station, non-specific wing area, and even engines. Face it, taking out an engine or two on a buff is no victory if he shreds you in the process and can still fly away. Vital target choice is important regardless of whether using HO or 6 attack on buff. Take the tail, take a wing, whatever, but make him a pile of pieces as quickly and safely as possible. Too much time spent almost always works to his advantage.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://www.tcsn.net/aramis/skorpjg2.gif)
Skorpyon
I/JG2 ~Richthofen~
"Feel the Sting......"
[This message has been edited by Skorpyon (edited 03-30-2000).]
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No more dancing around the issue Funked (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Do you agree or disagree with my "My Aircraft is not a Panzer rant"? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
Carpe Jugulum
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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RAM - you sent me the film right after the incident and I watched it. Like I told you then, I think you had bad luck. You came into the HO, got the B17's wing, but at the same time the B17 got a good burst into your left side from close range. You lost your wing and exploded.
You came almost directly headon, slighty on the left of the B17. The B17 had the top turret and left nose gun pointed at you. I believe you gave quite a stable target. You were fast, but not an impossible shot for the gunner. I believe he got a good 1 sec burst from 3 .50's into your left wing root just as you shot his wing off. I would estimate a 1/5 chance on that shot - 2 attacks out of ten you would be shot down too. This was one of them.
With a little more lateral separation you can make the gunner's job a lot more difficult. Come from the high 10 or 2, maybe even do like Skorpyon did - dive under it and zoom back up and shoot at the buffs belly.
Like I told you, based on that one film I can't see what the fuss is about. Try these tricks - if you still get shot down more than you get kills, we can start looking for gameplay bugs together (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Cya in the virtual skies!
Camo
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Camouflage
XO, Lentolaivue 34
www.muodos.fi/LLv34 (http://www.muodos.fi/LLv34)
"The really good pilots use their superior judgement to keep them out of situations
where they might be required to demonstrate their superior skill."
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From BigJim >
Just a historical note, the "nose guns" of a B-17 were manned by the Navigator and Bombadier (not the best at gunnery
for sure) and so the B-17 should be vunerable from HO attacks (if the poor gunnery of the gunners is modeled in the
sim)????
<
So does this mean that the nose guns should not fire when the pilot is in the bombsight?
Does anyone know if the nose gun fires when the pilot is in the bombsight and a gunner
is in a turret firing at con in view of the nose guns?
sour
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Sourkraut
JG-2 Richthofen (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/saurkraut.gif)
[This message has been edited by sourkraut (edited 03-31-2000).]
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Pongo, I'm familar with the armour on the Spitfire MkXIV and I assure you that the Fw-190 in the pictures has more armour than the Spit. I don't know about the P-51, but as I fly Spits in all sims, almost exclusively, I have made quite an effort to know as much about them as I can.
If I can get some scans of the Spits armour, is there anybody who would be interested in posting it?
Sisu
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Vermillion I would say that some of the airplane is a panzer. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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RAM: The root of this problem is net lag.
Let's say that both you and the bomber are perfect shots. All shells land on target from 1500 yds closing to zero yds.
Now in real life, one of the aircraft would die first and stop firing, before the two aircraft passed eachother.
But due to net lag in our game, both aircraft are firing all the way up to the pass.
Even if one of them has taken a fatal hit, this information will not be transmitted until a split second after the pass. And during this time the "dead" aircraft has a chance to deliver a fatal blow to the "winner" of the joust.
The result is that both aircraft die more often than would be the case in real life.