Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: NBKYDD on May 23, 2004, 10:33:05 PM
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Just wondeing why so many people are so avidly against HO attacks. Do you really think that a WW2 pilot would not shoot at an enemy plane closing head on. I do not HO all the time but if you turn into me I Will and Do fire. It is not the only aspect of my game ......but I'm not averse to it. Also what is wrong with diving for my own field with ack if you r on my six? Would this not be an acceptable move for a pilot with a bandit on his six and a friendly field nearby????? Why is it frowned upon????? Would it not be bad tactics for YOU to follow Me into the ack? I have seen and heard a few coplaints in the last few weeks (in H2H rooms) about the way other people were playing the game. I think everyone choses how he wishes to fly........you don't like the way I fly my plane ......don't fly with me.....shoot me down......just don't trash my tactics.
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A topic that is going on right now as a matter of fact.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=113481
The HO part anyways.
IMHO its do or die sometimes. Other times it can be avoided.
Its the situation that determines my actions rather than my actions determining the situation.
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It takes Two to HO!
So there really no room for crying about it.
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HO is valid as a tactic in everyway, except that it's essentially a suicidal move rather than a tactic.
A gung-ho HO attack is not a "tactic".
A 'tactic', is a series of preplanned initiatives which purpose is to let you win without getting hurt. In an air-to-air engagement, a Pyrric victory would be useless were it in real life.
The only reason HO can be considered a favorable move for many people is because us gamers don't have to worry about dying. Oh, real life pilots certainly won't refrain from shooting if they ever fall into a HO situation, but it's a situation they would try to avoid in the first place.
That being said, people who rely heavily on HO is basically frustrating to fight against. There's a basic sense of logic underlying in the whole theme of ACM and A2A combat, and those who go gung-ho is basically outside that logic.
So, it's sort of like this;
".. hmm, there he comes to HO again, I'll avoid it." ..... then... "hmm.. now, I don't think he's that stupid to try it again.. so I'll prepare something else, as he probably won't do it...".... but.... "oh geez, he's doing it again... ! Have to git out of the way....".... and again, .... "he won't do it for a third time, would he....?" .... but.. "woops, there it is.. the third HO coming.." .....
Now, it isn't really hard to shoot the guy down once you realize that his mindset is basically at the same level of a charging rhino.. but before you get that, it's quite frustrating and baffling to fight someone like that.
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I agree. I don't go looking to HO. You have virtually no advantage in that situation and advantage is what it is all about IMO. I prefer to try to plan my attacks and get more satifaction from anticpating an enemy's move than getting the actual kill. I rarely ever land kills actually.
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If you HO you will most likely take damage, or die. So, if you can live with that, go for it. Just think about it from a tactics standpoint and see if it's worth it to you. How far have you flown? Are you needed where you are? Will it matter if you have to rtb?
A lot of people (as here) say that it takes two to HO. This isn't always true, as go the rams too. If a guy is compressed and you turn into him, he may not fire (or pull off in case of the ram). If your opponent is nose down and you both die, there is a possibility he will smack the terrain before you explode or whatever. He's going fast and pointing down. If he losses control he can only hit the ground after all, while your momentum carries you up.
If you're level and HO, well the playing field is more even then.
Think about it.
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If the headon is the optimal choice for the situation I'm in, then I'm going to take it. Otherwise, I'll manuever for something more efficient and effective.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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if th enemy aircraft has a firign solution ready during your frontal attack you are a nonmoving target while you prepare your own firing solution.
likely both aircraft will be damaged and often if both pilots have avaerage gunnery and time to fire both planes will be deestroyed.
however if you are ready to fire and the enemy aircraft is still moving into position you have the advantage because you are about to fire and they are not ready. in this situation the odds are 2 to 1 that you will inflict more damage than they can.
don't give the enemy aircraft an easy shot.
would you sit still when an enemy plane was on your 6?
then why sit still when ones on your 12 if you have other options available to kill them without giving them a shot back.
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and 99% of all headon shots can be avoided by a simple rapid barrel roll with soem uncoordinated rudder and elevator to roll out of their fire.
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these tactics are not complained about by anyone who is not ignorant to thier own part in the HO.
the HO and the ack-running 'tactics' are valid in every sense in that, they might save you from a sticky situation.
personaly, as a spitV 'dweeb' (lol - theres another common misconception) i very rarely HO unless i am heavily outnumbered.
The people who complain at HO's are either to slow thinking to avoid the HO, have tried the HO and lost so, obviously, its not their fault, or they are generaly fed up with dying after flying for 15 mins.
only the last of these is really a fair stand point, as i do find it frustrating when a heavily cannon loaded SOB flies straight at me , spraying like a loonatic from 2k. In this case the HO is not always avoidable.
But, the bottom line is:
If you are dying from HO then it is at least 50% your fault and you have no-one to blame but HTC :) if they hadnt made this game you would be playing a far more inferior combat flight sim or even doing something worthwhile with your time :lol
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
If the headon is the optimal choice for the situation I'm in, then I'm going to take it. Otherwise, I'll manuever for something more efficient and effective.
-- Todd/Leviathn
That is really all there is to it right there. 1 on 1, 2 on 1... I've got a better chance "fighting" as it were. If I see more coming in and they are dumb enough to joust with me... I'll take a 50/50 shot.
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It takes Two to HO!
This is patently wrong. Incorrect. not right, not true, false, a misconception... etc.
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I think the better question would be ..
WHY HO ?
Why fly a 1/2 sector or more, only to go HO with the first con that you engage and go down in flames or sustain serious damage. Can't tell you how many times I have seen people do this, who have left from the same field I did. I can only shake my head when I see that.
How many times have you fought someone and finally got the advantage when all of a sudden one of your countrymen decides to help, and goes HO, and you watch both go down in flames. Again, I have to shake my head.
I'm with Urchin on this. When odds are more than 2 v 1 and the situation presents itself (cause chances are I am probably gonna die anyway) I will take the HO shot. Outside of that ... I avoid them at all costs. I'll be damned if I am going to fly a sector to end it all on a 50/50 chance.
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Well, anytime I accept the HO, or cannot avoid it for some reason and die the guy who gets the kill invariably has about 17 kills in 500 fighter sorties and a 2% hit %. What accepting HO's does, unless you have an advantage of some sort ( ie: gravity assist in a dive, firepower,extended convergence range settings etc), is to give a far inferior pilot a far greater chance of ending your flight than he deserves. Forcing the would-be HO'er to actually fight in the conventional ACM way insures that those with no skill or talent, who rely exclusively on HO's for kills, do not end your mission. That is reason enough NOT to HO unless you have absolutely no viable alternative in my humble opinion.
Zazen
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I hear ya slapshot..chased a guy from 14 k in a descending fight to the deck, finally get a solution and some dummy hos him, he happens to live and everyone tells him wtg..i was pi**ed!
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I think we need to better define the HO. There are blatant HOs where the planes point at each other from more than 4.0K distance. These are easily avoided by me, but often the other pilot will extend out another 6.0+ and turn to do it again. Eventually I might slow him down enough to get the kill but I usually just leave, there are too many other targets to shoot at in the MA these days.
There are chance meetings where in a crowd two planes point at each other from 1.5 to 3.5 away and this is usually somewhat of a suprise to both pilots. These usually come down to an SA issue, if one sees the other fast enough to line him up game over. I can usually tell if he's "on me" or not and decide to take the shot or evade.
Then there's the snapshot where two planes have been turning with each other for at least 360 degrees (any altitude or speed or distance apart) and one guy gets a few more dregrees on the other and POW. I don't consider this an HO at all but I see it called an HO all the time, the problem is I cannot shoot a guy without pointing my plane at him, if I have the angle and he coninues to pull towards me I'll kill him. The same can be said when you are low and slow and getting B&Z'ed to death, IF you can pull your nose up towards the guy with a major advantage and shoot him in the face he's just stupid for giving you the shot. THAT is not an HO IMHO.
I usually avoid HO's for a few reasons.
1.) My plane is usually outgunned but the other HO'er, at least by the ones I KNOW are going for the HO (niki/typh/jug/hurri).
2.) If I can sucker them into one and make em miss I have the tactical advantage in the rest of the fight.
3.) My convergence is really close and I'll lose more than the 50% you guys are talking about.
I'll take the HO if I have him seriously outgunned, or have a tactical advantage or think he's notready or doesn't see me (low 12).
The derogatory classification of HO'er stems from those guys who seem to have no other skill. They'll HO extend HO extend HO extend untill they die. If I'm in a fast enough plane I enjoy killing them greatly.
EDIT:typos
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A true HO is when both planes have a guns solution on each other. Anything outside of that .. its a deflection shot for the one that has a guns solution.
I have taken extremely high deflection shots (engine compartment to cockpit) while knife fighting and have been accused of HOing. If I can shoot you and you can't shoot me ... its not an HO.
Under what conditions to take/give the HO is something different all together.
My gunnery sucks at the 6 and 12 o'clock positions, so I tend to avoid the HO shot. I find my gunnery is better when taking deflection shots.
"Forcing the would-be HO'er to actually fight in the conventional ACM way insures that those with no skill or talent, who rely exclusively on HO's for kills, do not end your mission. That is reason enough NOT to HO unless you have absolutely no viable alternative in my humble opinion."
Zazen ... couldn't agree with you more.
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When you commit to an HO, you give your opponent the opportunity to pull a lead turn, not only spoiling your shot, but giving him an intitial angular advantage.
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Zazen , SlapShot...........
Well Said....I HATE , DESPISE and get more frustrated by somone Hoing pass after pass after pass. When your outnumberd...Well it's take what ya can most of the time. I find myself dodging Ho's even when outnumbered. That in itslef is maybe the dweebiest thing. 4 guys fighting my slow Spit V and I still have to dodge some guy screaming in when I finally get on one of em's 6 to ho me..Dodge him..loose firing..turn or reverse to try and dodge the B&Z'er and get another chance..only to be ho'ed again...then they finally get to ya..all because some numbnut cant get a kill anyother way. :p
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...and IRL pilots didnt need to deal with netlag.
HO as much you want but dont whine after the neg result...
All rest is just same old blaa blaa
:)
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I'll tell you what I have noticed lately with increasing frequency is just about every La-7 I encounter goes for the HO. Warpy HOs are tough, as the guy is suddenly in your face... Those usually end in a collision.
Typically, if I'm flying a fighter with Hispanos or Browning .50s, I'll give the oncoming knucklehead a quick squirt at 1.2k to 1.4k and dive below his line of sight just before he fires, reversing in a climbing turn. 8 out of 10 just keep on going, disinterested in actually fighting. The remaining two do the standard zoom climb while they try to figure out what to do next.
My regards,
Widewing
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* If your idea of dogfighting is pointing at the other plane and shooting - HO!
* If you are the kind that plays for draw and settle for no better then 1:1 K/D - HO!
* If you are in a p47 at 100 feet & 200 mph, fighting a spit 5 and he stupidly offers it - HO!
* if you feel lucky punk - HO!
Bozon
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The HO reminds me of that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark where the big fella shows off some fancy moves with his sword, then Harrison Ford pulls his pistol and shoots him (after rolling his eyes).
Harrison Ford is a HO dweeb.
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Why HO?
You're either in a position in which there is no other alternative.
or
You're a "gamer".... there's no "Combat Flight Simming" involved.
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Originally posted by Widewing
8 out of 10 just keep on going, disinterested in actually fighting. The remaining two do the standard zoom climb while they try to figure out what to do next
So true, especially the 8 out of 10 part.
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A classic example that has already been mentioned:
Coalt vs. a jug tonight. D-11. First merge jug goes for HO, I decline, horde E as jug does hard reverse/ break turn.
I tangle w/ a 109 that joins fray and chase him off. Jug has regained E, second merge. Jug goes for Ho and I decline. Jug has enough E to reverse and saddle up so I hard around too.
Third merge, jug goes for the HO, I decline.
Jug does a hard, flat break turn again so I chandelle up over him.
Jug tries to pull up, I tease him and let him get to 800. jug sprays wildly for a few seconds, I nose down and the jug is 300 yards out when he falls flat and I put him away.
I suggest to the jug pilot that he learn other things so he has options when his HO is declined. He tells me it was all he could do because I came in at 20k.(*sigh*.. BS)
Then he tells me it's all he could do because he was lower E. I try to explain that he became lower E than me because he doesn't know what to do after HO fails. He called me a 51 dweeb.
I then told him I had kills this month in spitV, P38, F6F, Zero, Il2, Fm2.. etc. He says all of those planes are easy planes. I end conversation... what's the point?
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Originally posted by Widewing
I'll tell you what I have noticed lately with increasing frequency is just about every La-7 I encounter goes for the HO. Warpy HOs are tough, as the guy is suddenly in your face... Those usually end in a collision.
Typically, if I'm flying a fighter with Hispanos or Browning .50s, I'll give the oncoming knucklehead a quick squirt at 1.2k to 1.4k and dive below his line of sight just before he fires, reversing in a climbing turn. 8 out of 10 just keep on going, disinterested in actually fighting. The remaining two do the standard zoom climb while they try to figure out what to do next.
My regards,
Widewing
Wow, does enyone in your opinion fly LA7 right? You maybe be the best, but us little people have to go in to a zoom clime to buy some time to think about what to do next when we encounter your greatness. Give us time, we will learn.
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Originally posted by dedalos
Wow, does enyone in your opinion fly LA7 right? You maybe be the best, but us little people have to go in to a zoom clime to buy some time to think about what to do next when we encounter your greatness. Give us time, we will learn.
Damn dedalos! Who pissed in your fruity pebbles today?
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Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Damn dedalos! Who pissed in your fruity pebbles today?
lol. Well, I like the lala. How would he like it if I came out and said that the people flying 38s are skilles HOers (SlapShot not included, lol) and that after they miss the HO, they go into a zoom clime trying to figure out what to do next?
I've been HOed by all types of planes and had planes run from me. Its not fair making statements like that. Some peope are new, some are out of fuel, some low on amo, and some may be running because fo their score, and some cause HO is the only thing they know. Its not fair puting everyone in the same category and exclude yourself just because you fly a different plane.
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About the only time I find myself unable to avoid a HO is when I follow someone up and they reverse quickly while I'm too slow to manuever out of the way. Pisses me off every damn time. Is it my fault? Every damn time.
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Originally posted by dedalos
lol. Well, I like the lala. How would he like it if I came out and said that the people flying 38s are skilles HOers (SlapShot not included, lol) and that after they miss the HO, they go into a zoom clime trying to figure out what to do next?
I've been HOed by all types of planes and had planes run from me. Its not fair making statements like that. Some peope are new, some are out of fuel, some low on amo, and some may be running because fo their score, and some cause HO is the only thing they know. Its not fair puting everyone in the same category and exclude yourself just because you fly a different plane.
Ok, I was being too general, however......
Unfair? I'm simply stating what I have observed. Don't take it personally. You may be very skilled in the La-7, or you may be just one of the vast sucking horde who probably require an escort to the crapper. I don't know and I'm not going to speculate.
For the record, I spend a lot of time in the Training Arena teaching new guys what little I know, in the hope that they will come to the MA with enough understanding to be decent pilots from day one. It's always rewarding to see their handles in the text box having landed a nice group of kills.
There are exceptions to every rule, but the overwhelming majority of La-7 drivers fly it because they can't survive in anything with less speed. And the thing is, Lavochkins are great fighters. However, many of the guys flying it use it as a crutch, rather than learning how to compete.
We all know the drill: HO, reverse, HO, reverse, until they burn off their E. Then they flip-flop around until they get dispatched.
If it wasn't a chosen vulch ride for noobs, it probably would have a negative kill ratio due to the way it is used. In fact, if you look at the kill ratios against some of the other aircraft, you might be shocked.
Against the La-7:
FM-2 - 1.07/1
Fw 190A-5 - 1.46/1
Fw 190D-9 - 1.29/1
Hurri IIC - 1.13/1
La-5FN - 1.07/1
P-40E - 1.27/1
P-47D-11 - 1.29/1
Seafire - 1.05/1
Typhoon - 1.15/1
And there are several dead heats, including the Bf 109s, and even the Ki-61. All perk fighters have huge kill ratios against the La-7. Indeed, the 320 mph FM-2 has a better overall kill to death ratio than the La-7, with the P-40E not far behind (1.05/1 overall).
We know that the La-7 is the best non-perked fighter in the plane set. It should have a kill ratio far better than it does.
If you would like a clarification, I'd simply apply my observations to 95% of the La-7s I encounter and be spot on the money.
By the way, if you have to pause and think about what you need to do (as in zooming up while one ponders), you will likely die anyway. You should have that worked out before you commit.
To those guys who the fly the La-7 because it's their life insurance, I suggest flying something slow. Something like the P-40, F4F or even the A-20G. They won't out-run anyone and they'll have to learn how to survive. Then, when they return to the La-7, they might actually be someone to reckon with and HOs will be the last thing they'll be doing. Or, they can just continue padding the scores of the guys who do know how to fight.
My regards,
Widewing
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quoting Steve:
"quote:
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It takes Two to HO!
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This is patently wrong. Incorrect. not right, not true, false, a misconception... etc."
quoting Slapshot:
"A true HO is when both planes have a guns solution on each other. Anything outside of that .. its a deflection shot for the one that has a guns solution."
Which one of these guys is right?
I've always been of the opinion it takes two as well, except for the unlucky mishaps, that's why I don't understand the whinage on CH.1 about HO's. I've never been in one yet that I didn't choose to forgo a little seperation, except for a couple outright accidental collisions.
The guys that always say something like "you loser, I was coming right at you and you HO'd me" crack me up.
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In Steve's Quote: actually it takes 2 planes to have a head on solution, but only requires 1 plane to aquire a Head On shot .
In SlapShots Quote: Yes a True HO is where both planes have a firing solution on the other plane.
Alot of people assume a HO is HO when they see the guy firing at them when merging nose to nose, even if they are not in a direct line with each other.
so both guys are right in their own assumptions.
In my opinion anything within say a 20 degree cone, can be considered a near HO if not a HO. but that is how I was taught from them old geezers from long ago,
:D
Heck, just pay/bribe Hitech to turn off Head On Shots or make it where it is on a randomizer type deal where you may receive a counted shot 1 out of every 30 or so. This way maybe the guys that rely on the HO aspect so much will actually try to learn how to manuever his plane for the kill.
either way, my skilless dweeb arse will be glad to help anyone who may want to learn a better way than the ole mighty HO road you maybe on at the moment.
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My point is simple. It takes two to merge, only one to make in an HO.
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Of course bombers are the exception. The high attacking HO was the best way we found to attack B17 bombers streams during the Ruhr scenario. Well, I'm counting the 11 and 1 o'clock positions in the HO catagory as well. But you better be fast.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Ok, I was being too general, however......
I guess I over reacted. Kind of tired about the MA lala whines. However, I have seen what you describe done by 190s F4Us P38s P51s etc. Enything faster than me at the time of the engagement. It seems that when a lala does it people get more vocal about it. Anyway, and
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Originally posted by dedalos
Wow, does enyone in your opinion fly LA7 right? You maybe be the best, but us little people have to go in to a zoom clime to buy some time to think about what to do next when we encounter your greatness. Give us time, we will learn.
to show u the usual mentality of La7 pilot.
my 1st fligh in AH2(ever) other day, 1st plane i meet La7 co alt @ 15k, i was a -4 hog, what does La7 do? HO 1st and only pass
and then dives to deck to run home 2 sectors away lol.
whels