Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: diegocn on May 25, 2004, 01:02:04 AM
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The 3d engine of ah2 is the same of ah1???
I wait that not :mad:
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ME TARZAN U JANE:rofl
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SORRY I DONT SPEACK ENGLISH :confused:
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NO Say It Aint so.
Man could have fooled me.
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Originally posted by diegocn
The 3d engine of ah2 is the same of ah1???
I wait that not :mad:
Relax, it isn't... and that is pretty obvious to me.
They have a lot of things built into the engine that will alow them to make it prettier later.
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Originally posted by jodgi
Relax, it isn't... and that is pretty obvious to me.
They have a lot of things built into the engine that will alow them to make it prettier later.
I do hope so as it stands now it looks very dated and pretty ugly. FM and Gameplay alone won't be enough to draw new players and hold onto some older ones.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
I do hope so as it stands now it looks very dated and pretty ugly.
You're not serious? :confused:
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Originally posted by Flossy
You're not serious? :confused:
Yes affraid so, very dissapointed with the graphics to date and was expecting alot more. Looks like AH1 with a few skin enhancements and graphic details. I know and appreciate the advancements with the flight modeling and the huge amount of work that has gone into AH2 and all involved are to be congratulated. But my expectations where also that AH2 wouldn't look like AH1 as significant visable changes at current Beta are few.
I know there are alot of updates with graphics to come, but unless these are significant changes in improving the look of the game it will remain looking rather dated. Especially to new players. I never expected IL2 graphics in a online sim but things like pixel dust bursts wen't out before EAW.
Myself and most in the AH community can appreciate the changes in FM and gameplay and will therefore continue to enjoy AH for years to come. But for new players they'll look at the graphics and possibly be turned off (and probably a few vets too) compared to what else they may be use to or what the competition may offer.
I appreciate the work that's gone into AH2 and greatly look forward to it's release and will continue to support AH, but at the same time feel let down in the graphics department. As what we are seeing seems to be an enhancement of the original AH1 engine rather then a new one. Sorry, wish I could say otherwise but Beta currently leaves me pretty unimpressed.
...-Gixer
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While Gixer may wave the flag of doom, there is much built into this graphics engine that will allow us to do many nice graphics enhancements. The main bulk of the artwork we have done consists of converting 4 years worth of work to be compatible with the new engine.
And if you're thinking that we should have gotten that done a long time ago, consider the fact that during development things are changing constantly. Art has to be reworked, reverted, deleted, completely overhauled, etc. I've had to change the same piece of work almost on a daily basis at one point. This is how development works. There is nothing exact about it. It requires a LOT of work, patience and frustration that the public never sees.
At this point, things are really starting to move into full motion, and we are certainly not going to let the graphics stagnate. In fact, nothing has ever been stagnant in AH. I hope this gives you some perspective into what is going on. I know many of our customers understand this, but many also don’t get it, which is to be expected. However, understand that this game is and always will be an evolving entity, which is certainly something you won’t get out of a box game.
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Hey Gixer do you even subscribe to the game ?
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I agree with Gixer... The graphics is the same as the AH1 :(
When they had announced the development of AH2,
in the htc foruns, htc announced a new engine, total remodelled,
with spectacular 3d graphics... Im very disappointed sorry :(
Flashpoint 1 is excelente, imagine Flashpoint 2. interested go to http://www.flashpoint1985.com
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OMG...its superfly! I think I have shot that guy offline like a million times!!!!:rofl
Anyhow...Superfly is correct.
SECOND, the graphics in AH2 are superb! The sun effects, clouds, shading are incredible in flight....Anyone that says the graphics in AH1 and AH2 are the same is insane...try turning that EYECANDY up on your cards or run in 1600x1200....you will see a difference
My 2.5 cents!:D
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Well with 6 post you must either be 1. an older account holder wishing to hide his old BBS handle or.
2 a newbie.
In either case your case simply dont hold water sorry.:rolleyes:
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diegocn,
read what Superfly said at 05-25-2004 08:54 AM
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Originally posted by diegocn
I agree with Gixer... The graphics is the same as the AH1 :(
When they had announced the development of AH2,
in the htc foruns, htc announced a new engine, total remodelled,
with spectacular 3d graphics... Im very disappointed sorry :(
Flashpoint 1 is excelente, imagine Flashpoint 2. interested go to http://www.flashpoint1985.com
I disagree with you and Gixer. I am pleased with the way AH2 now looks and really encouraged by the way it looks to be headed. At this point, there may not appear to be a huge difference between the two. However, I just have to up a P-51, get into a fight, and see where this will be in a few months.
Thats the beauty of this. You can love and play Flashpoint and be disappointed by Aces High. I can enjoy Aces High and be disappointed by Flashpoint (much prefer R6: Raven Shield and Ghost Recon for my tactical games). We don't have to agree except on one thing, both our gaming desires can be filled by various games out there and not every game will suit us.
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Anyone who says AH2 has the same graphics as AH1 needs to get their eyes checked. True, it is not IL2 class, but still very nice indeed.
Aces High I
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/shots/players/cit2.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/shots/players/sancho2.jpg)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/images/shots/players/solas1.jpg)
Aces High II
(http://www.md-kuhnt.com/globalpics/2004/05/firstlook.jpg)
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Nicely put, GScholz.
;)
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Well IL2 FB has got kick butt eye candy fer sure.
But does it have 500+ people on every night fighting it out?
Well there ya go.
Nice job Superfly and crew
:aok
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Originally posted by txmx
Hey Gixer do you even subscribe to the game ?
Yes I've subscribed since October 01 other then for a recent 6 month break due to work and sporting commitments. How long have you been around?
Check my stats if you like same as game id.
...-Gixer
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started off as RC51 back about 3 years ago i think.
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Originally posted by guttboy
OMG...its superfly! I think I have shot that guy offline like a million times!!!!:rofl
Anyhow...Superfly is correct.
SECOND, the graphics in AH2 are superb! The sun effects, clouds, shading are incredible in flight....Anyone that says the graphics in AH1 and AH2 are the same is insane...try turning that EYECANDY up on your cards or run in 1600x1200....you will see a difference
My 2.5 cents!:D
Yes the eye candy is up high and running at 1600x1200
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by txmx
started off as RC51 back about 3 years ago i think.
Then why think I'm a unsubscribing noob? Sure your ID is planted in my stats a few times.
...-Gixer
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Superfly,
I wasn't painting a picture of Doom I said I would continue to support AH and that I appreciated the many changes. And looking forward to the upcoming changes in graphics. I understand it's better and appreciate that bug fixing,FM and other new details come first.
My basic point was that at it's current Beta stage graphic wise it is less then I expected and for those that think I need my eyes checked because I can't see the difference between AH1 and AH2 I can. I just don't think they are as significant as one might of expected.
...-Gixer
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Originally posted by Gixer
Sure your ID is planted in my stats a few times.
...-Gixer
Im sure your in mine as well .
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Originally posted by txmx
Well with 6 post you must either be 1. an older account holder wishing to hide his old BBS handle or.
2 a newbie.
In either case your case simply dont hold water sorry.:rolleyes:
Why put down diegocn's opinion just becase he may have a new account and dosn't agree with you? If diegocn's is new what does it matter on this or any other subject his opinion is just as valid as yours or mine.
No wonder new guys come and go if they get put down by others when they voice their opinion on a subject in the forums.
...-Gixer
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"I just don't think they are as significant as one might of expected."
The expectation is self-induced here Gixer.
While you were expecting more (nothing wrong with that) some weren't expecting quite as much as you, resulting not in a let-down, but more of a let-up (<--- no such word ... just drew a blank).
You seems to understand ... you gotta walk before you can run. Right now, I would say the AH II is in a fast paced walk.
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For starters if you can't see the difference in graphics compared to AH1 then you might need glasses.
Secondly what other games such as Aces High comes anywhere close to AH2?
I can't see how someone can compare OFP to AH it's not even close to the same thing. Eyecandy is nice in it for what it was designed for. It was not designed as a "flight simulator". You can easily tell just by flying the aircraft in it. OFP and Battlefield 1942 are about the same just different timelines. Either way they in no way shape or form can be compared to Aces High.
I can see that overtime with the hard work the HT crew puts into Aces High and the community there will be nothing close to AH. Your not going to get graphics like IL2 FB or MSFS 2004 if thats what your looking for. Granted they will come close in many aspects but for the type of game it is it won't happen. You can't have the extreme graphics many of you want and the same type of game play. Unless HT can find out a way to seperate sectors so the in essence each area is it's own game but make them blended so folks can pass through a portal of some type it's not gonna happen.
Either way how much are you really paying attention to some of this stuff while flying? Unless your in a formation or doing ground pounding duties your not gonna see much more than a blur out of the corner of your eye. Having awesome graphics is great but in the long run how much do you really pay attention to them? One thing that will be nice with the new graphics is making movies.
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Originally posted by txmx
Im sure your in mine as well .
Curiosity got the better of me, going back to tour 25 seems we haven't come across each other all that often but when we have I've killed you 4 times for no deaths. So yes I'm in your stats but not in the way you'd like.
...-Gixer
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Right now, I am sure the art department has had a long road doing conversions. (upgrading from 256x256 to 1024x1024)
And not just aircraft skins - I can only imagine all the little things that "skinners" don't get to see, outside of a vehicle/aircraft skin.
If anyone out there hasn't tried doing a skin - I would suggest it.
Just to get an idea of the time.
I would imagine that doing a complete conversion on an aircraft with say 3 external tiles for skins and 4-5 internal times for skins would easily take at least 2 weeks if you have time to kill, 2-4 weeks if you work part time and easily 6 weeks if you have a full time job and family.
Not only is it just increasing the size, but increasing detail. There has to be time allotted for reasearch, ect...to make sure everything is a close to correct as it can be.
Then theres the 3d modelling... I have no experience in this, but would imagine that to be time consuming as well.
From the jist of the HTC staffs post in varios threads, I would imagine that the beta is the foundation right now. Gotta build that good and strong and without faults before you start adding in framework for the walls and roof. One you get those done you can easily "remodel" the finishing of the walls and basically redecorate however you want.
So hopefully were nearing the stage where the foundations solid, the walls and roof are going up and you'll start to see "decorators" take over.
hopefully the carpet matches the drapes.......
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Originally posted by txmx
Well with 6 post you must either be 1. an older account holder wishing to hide his old BBS handle or.
2 a newbie.
In either case your case simply dont hold water sorry.:rolleyes:
:lol
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Another bit of perspective:
Where as most game companies will have any where from 20-30+ people working on one game, HTC has 5 people actually directly involved in the development of AHII. Now figure how much time and effort goes into AH with that many people.
HTC staff:
1 Office Manager/payroller/grocery buyer/con organizer/den mother/bill payer
1 Tech support/networker
developers-
2 Programmers
2 Artists
1 Flight modeller/researcher/WWII expert
That's a whopping 7 HTC staff members. Compared to, let's say EA with 100's of people working there. There is a huge difference in the amount of production you can expect to be accomplished in a given amount of time.
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Originally posted by txmx
ME TARZAN U JANE:rofl
i thought you were cheetah?
:confused:
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1 Office Manager/payroller/grocery buyer/con organizer/den mother/bill payer
Perk Yankee she is way over modeled (and over worked)
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Originally posted by guttboy
OMG...its superfly! I think I have shot that guy offline like a million times!!!!:rofl
what?!? how hard can it be to shoot down a flat turning seal?
:D
i just hope the FM will get tweaked somewhat - it's kind of back to the old rubber bands instead of rails.
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GS, all those ah2 pictures are with zoom on, AHI pics not zoomed in. AH II doesnt look anywhere near that good without zoom (on my puter anyway.
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Originally posted by txmx
Well with 6 post you must either be 1. an older account holder wishing to hide his old BBS handle or.
2 a newbie.
In either case your case simply dont hold water sorry.:rolleyes:
you must be a noob too since you've registered just this month.
you sure do post alot tho'. how do you find time to fly? or are you one of them H2H moochers?
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There is no technical limitation that would disqualify an IL2 "class" engine from being used in a massively multiplayer game. I've seen screenies with hundreds of planes in IL2 (AI of course), so the engine does handle large numbers of aircraft. They just lack the net code. As Superfly pointed out, expecting such results from such a small development team is highly unrealistic. Right now, graphics wise, the only thing I don't like is the old explosions, smoke, and that there is no additive filter on the flames/muzzle flashes (against a bright background the flames appear darker). However I'm sure these features (and more) are coming, right now HTC is working on the basics to get the game online. I am not at all disappointed with AH2 ... frankly all my experiences with it have been positive.
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Originally posted by Furball
GS, all those ah2 pictures are with zoom on, AHI pics not zoomed in. AH II doesnt look anywhere near that good without zoom (on my puter anyway.
Looks to me like all the AHI pics have zoom on. I did not take any of those screenies myself (the AHIs are from HTC's site), but AHII does look that good on my puter, even better in some cases.
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Hmmm ... those AHII screenies are probably taken in 1600x1200, and if you have a lower desktop resolution the pictures will look more "zoomed in".
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Originally posted by Gixer
Curiosity got the better of me, going back to tour 25 seems we haven't come across each other all that often but when we have I've killed you 4 times for no deaths. So yes I'm in your stats but not in the way you'd like.
...-Gixer
Tell me how do you find out who killed you each time?
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Originally posted by Shane
you must be a noob too since you've registered just this month.
you sure do post alot tho'. how do you find time to fly? or are you one of them H2H moochers?
Scroll up .
Been around since tour 25
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Here's a collage I just made that shows AHII on my puter. The screenies were downsized from 1600x1200 to 800x600 to give the correct perspective compared to the AHI screenies.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/245_1085523623_colage.jpg)
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It honestly to me looks damn near the same, but all the smoothness of AH1 is gone in AH2.
I really hate it. I'd gladly fly IL-2 for graphics and AH1 for pure fun online. But it's going away, and I think that's not so good.
I challenge anyone from the original Beta to say AH2 is any better, and wouldn't rather have 30 new airplanes instead of this.
Sorry. Just how I feel.
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only REAL problem I see with AH2 is the continuation of lemming players-induced mediocre gameplay.
considering HTC's resources, in comparison to Maddox's or whatever they're called, AH2 is a better game in my opinion.
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Originally posted by txmx
ME TARZAN U JANE:rofl
Why is it always the religious fruitcakes who are the most intolerant of others?
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AH1 is a much better game moot, you missed my point.
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Well Creamo, once they get this out of the way, maybe they'll get back to adding new planes.
Some of the things I like a lot, some I couldn't care less about. The new oil hit and pilot wound graphics are neat, I like all the crap on the ground that GVs can use to hide in. I suspect that the Panzer IV will still be Hizooka-bait so I'll probably stay out of the GVs anyway once 2.0 comes out, but at least the tanks can hide now.
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Originally posted by txmx
Scroll up .
Been around since tour 25
you can remove the hook now mrblack.
:aok
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Originally posted by Urchin
Well Creamo, once they get this out of the way, maybe they'll get back to adding new planes.
Some of the things I like a lot, some I couldn't care less about. The new oil hit and pilot wound graphics are neat, I like all the crap on the ground that GVs can use to hide in. I suspect that the Panzer IV will still be Hizooka-bait so I'll probably stay out of the GVs anyway once 2.0 comes out, but at least the tanks can hide now.
I agree, but as long as it runs like AH1. That's the problem, it doesn't.
Nothing I have seen looks promising.
I just flew AH1 again, and it was almost as fun as the Beta, years ago. Now it has 500 people flying it, and that is extra fun. Those 500 are there for alot of reasons.
NONE of which have anything to do with IL-2FB and it's incredible graphics.
That's my point.
AH is great because of the MA and it's gameplay. To make it a computer hardware reliability for players with such a minimal graphic gain is not a good decision, at least I don't think. HTC seems to be right so we shall see.
I’d rather have AH1 and 30 more plane types. In fact, I’ll just hate AH1 going away. And it will, soon.
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Pic of the pilot with the pistol and one foot on the ground strikes me funny, reminds me of the old gumby shows when he walks (glides) on just 1 nonmoving foot. Pilot has a built in 2 foot unfoldable clipboard backpack. :D
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the smoothness of AH1 is gone in AH2.
Creamo's point here is good...
AH2's graphics are definitely more advanced than AH1, but to my eyes, something about AH1 makes it nicer to look at. I hope eventually they can retain AH2's improvements but bring back AH1's refinement.
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AH1's refinement
Ah, that's what I couldn't put the point on. TY.
Man, I hate to see it go. It's Hornet Korea of it's time, but made it work with 500 people later.
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Originally posted by Creamo
It honestly to me looks damn near the same, but all the smoothness of AH1 is gone in AH2.
I really hate it. I'd gladly fly IL-2 for graphics and AH1 for pure fun online. But it's going away, and I think that's not so good.
I challenge anyone from the original Beta to say AH2 is any better, and wouldn't rather have 30 new airplanes instead of this.
Sorry. Just how I feel.
Dang I will for one really miss you.
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GO HTC....
Im sorry....flew Air Warrior from about day one....THEN WHAM EA takes over and pulls the plug....
AH2 BETA still rocks...sorry...it has bugs...B.....E....T....A..... thats why we are testing it out. Give it some time ladies and gents.
For a 7 person company...you guys KICK ARSE!!!!!!!!!:D :)
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Originally posted by txmx
Tell me how do you find out who killed you each time?
Go to the score page, click on stats and there you can look how u do against all type of stats just enter my ID Gixer in the player v player stats.
Unfortunetly you have to look at each tour individully but it does give you what you were killed in and by what at the same time.
...-Gixer
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Oh ok Now I see how truly bad I sucked back then thank you:(
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platonia? They'll trim the edges later.
all I care about is fighting. It needs to be hard, fun, and in the middle of hundreds of other players. All things weighed, AH2 makes it more fun for me.
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Originally posted by SUPERFLY
That's a whopping 7 HTC staff members. Compared to, let's say EA with 100's of people working there. There is a huge difference in the amount of production you can expect to be accomplished in a given amount of time. [/B]
'All EA.com ( Butt-heads ) did with all their resorces, was kill my all time favorite game AirWarrior,and Layoff some of the nicest people in the industry.
HTC and his Crew, has provided AcesHigh and I really like it !!!
I'm another customer that isn't thrilled AH2 game play, I do not like the sun glare one damn bit, the gun sights, fire-hose bullet patterns and the way the new FM , characteristics , flops around and into flat spins , compared to AH 1. Want eye candy in AH ? just look in the CT at the bases and terrians in there . As for planes that look new and cool ? where are they , skins are a dime a dozen for other games , just do a search for skins for CFS II and see how many hits your search turns up. AH 1 is a fluid, fast, great working gameplay Sim, that is " FUN " to play . I will miss it when it they pull the plug on it . One other to think about , their are a few hundred people who are as happy as can be with AH1 as it is now . Ever consider how they are going to receive a new game with all these BS FR glare, trim tabs , and guns that you can't hit a bull in the butt with a base fiddle with ?? .
This is just my thoughts and observations , on a service that is "Fun " and I pay money for ,not a personal attack, or a "See it my way or Else Brown-Nosed-Sermon. Just my 2 cents .
CHECKERS
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Umm Superfly is an HTC staff memeber.
Opposed to being bit more realistic you'd rather have it gamey. Yank the stick do whatever you want it to kinda game. Laser guns, fake gunsights, no glare when you look into the sun.
Mommy this is hard I actually have to practice to get good.
Absolutely amazing how folks would rather have a game than more of a sim. I'm sure you could find alot more of your types of games out there. Heck I'm sure they've even got a spot on Battlefield 1942 or heck even on Operation Flashpoint. Obviously BF 1942 would fit the time frame you seem to be looking for better.
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Originally posted by Cobra412
Umm Superfly is an HTC staff memeber.
Opposed to being bit more realistic you'd rather have it gamey. Yank the stick do whatever you want it to kinda game. Laser guns, fake gunsights, no glare when you look into the sun.
Mommy this is hard I actually have to practice to get good.
Absolutely amazing how folks would rather have a game than more of a sim. I'm sure you could find alot more of your types of games out there. Heck I'm sure they've even got a spot on Battlefield 1942 or heck even on Operation Flashpoint. Obviously BF 1942 would fit the time frame you seem to be looking for better.
Yep I would rather have game play ! ( you can read after all , but your ability to comprehend the english langauge sucks , and you personal " Mommy Attack shows that ! "
It's a beta prettythang hole and they HTC asks for imput , you gota a problem with that ? ... I think so , Go re- read my post dip-stick ,
Its just my two cents ....Now ask me again if I give a watermelon what you think about it ? .
ps How many browney points and pairs of blue-goose shoes do you think you will get for an attack like that on other customers opions and input ? LOL and I know whom Superfly is , and have known since 12/07/00 .....
CHECKERS
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Geez guys ..... CHILL OUT!
Sorry but the he said/she said, personal attack junk gets old.
Regards
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Originally posted by guttboy
Geez guys ..... CHILL OUT!
Sorry but the he said/she said, personal attack junk gets old.
Regards
Guttboy you are 100 % correct , this web board breeds trouble and is way to easy for mental migets to sit in the comfort ( and safety ) of there own home and make attacks like that and not have to worry about "backing up their Mud " .
Prolly gona just send my input via email; from now on and leave these boards to others ..... At least what input I have can be read and considered , rather than having some one go off on a rant and personal adjend ..... Like so many of these snail-track have done to cause turmiol and watermelon .
T.C. Guttboy
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Somehow, I just don't think the folks at HTC get up every morning and go to work with the goal that they're going to do their very best to create a new game (technically, AH2 is new game) that will eventually look bad, have an awful flight/damage model, not run well on anyone's PC and not be fun to play.
I don't think some of you understand just how complex an undertaking it is. Look at the all the other mmog flight games out there - You can count them on 2 fingers. One has few players and some, er... management challenges and the other is stagnent and unsupported.
AH2 is still beta and it will require an enormous, never-ending amount of work even after going live. It is just a huge undertaking for so few people and it must require the patience and dedication of saints to keep plugging away at it.
I think the HTC staff deserve the respect that any suggestions presented should be done in a civil manner with clear reasoning 'why' the suggestion is made. It then is up to them to accept and prioritize it for inclusion, or reject the idea. There may be reasons something can't be done or can't be done well.
With so few people, they certainly cannot respond to every suggestion on this board. Well, they could, but no work would ever get done.
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Originally posted by AWCHKRS
Yep I would rather have game play ! ( you can read after all , but your ability to comprehend the english langauge sucks , and you personal " Mommy Attack shows that ! "
It's a beta prettythang hole and they HTC asks for imput , you gota a problem with that ? ... I think so , Go re- read my post dip-stick ,
Its just my two cents ....Now ask me again if I give a watermelon what you think about it ? .
ps How many browney points and pairs of blue-goose shoes do you think you will get for an attack like that on other customers opions and input ? LOL and I know whom Superfly is , and have known since 12/07/00 .....
CHECKERS
Originally posted by AWCHKRS
Guttboy you are 100 % correct , this web board breeds trouble and is way to easy for mental migets to sit in the comfort ( and safety ) of there own home and make attacks like that and not have to worry about "backing up their Mud "...
... Like so many of these snail-track have done to cause turmiol and chit .
T.C. Guttboy
CHECKERS
...now, what were you saying?
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AW your rather amusing I must say.
I'm another customer that isn't thrilled AH2 game play, I do not like the sun glare one damn bit, the gun sights, fire-hose bullet patterns and the way the new FM , characteristics , flops around and into flat spins , compared to AH 1.
Basically what your saying is HT did a piss poor job of making you a sim that resembles your previous experiences with AH 1?
You hate the sun glare because why? Because you can't see in into the sun when you look at it? I hate when the sun glares like that. Maybe we should just shut it off. No where's that pesky light switch.
Gunsights. Well other than the fact the glass assembly is a bit to dark for some peoples taste the rest is identical. Opposed to whining about it sucking maybe you should give a bit more detail.
Fire-hose bullet patterns. So are you complaining that the spread is in to fine of a pattern or is it in to wide of a pattern? Hmm hitting .target # makes for a good judge as to whether or not the spread pattern is any different from AH1. I'm sure you've already checked this out though. Still not sure though which it is your complaining about to wide or to narrow.
Flight Model Characteristics. Now with this I'm just curious did you want it to be easier or harder? I mean you really never stated either way. I'm assuming it's harder for you because your flopping all over the place. Well lets see the FM may or may not be complete. Guess the only real way to know is ask opposed to whine. With your previous complaint in regards to the gunsights I'm assuming both aren't being rather friendly to you. Have you asked if the FMs have been tweaked to their final state yet? Have you bothered trying to adjust your rig because maybe now with the 16 lift points (opposed to 4) things are a bit more tricky than before?
Frankly your original post was a whine not constructive criticism. Maybe next time you'll be a little more thorough and break your opinions out in a better fashion.
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Originally posted by AWCHKRS
I think so , Go re- read my post dip-stick
Leave me outta this, I didn't say nut'n! :lol
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And next on the Jerry Springer show.....