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Special Events Forums => Scenario General => Topic started by: jordi on May 25, 2004, 10:22:28 AM

Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: jordi on May 25, 2004, 10:22:28 AM
We are assuming this will run under AHII - so you still have time to test the beta before it goes live and do any hardware / software upgrades needed to fly in AHII.

The Command Staffs have been set.

The ALLIED CO is 68KO - bundy28@comcast.net

The AXIS CO is RDRTrash - allen@completeecom.com

If you are interested in helping either CO as an XO or GL please send them an Email.

We are looking at running this on the FIRST FOUR SUNDAYS in August 1st / 8th / 15th / 22nd.

The estimated Takeoff times will be 1:00 PM EDT. This will allow the European pilots time to finish at a reasonable hour before work on Monday.

We are still working on the rules and such to work with what AHII now offers.

Please post any questions you may have about Battle of Britain 2004.
Title: Re: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Gypsy Baron on May 25, 2004, 02:15:53 PM
Quote
Originally posted by jordi
-SNIP-
We are looking at running this on the FIRST FOUR SUNDAYS in August 1st / 8th / 15th / 22nd.


-SNIP-


 ( sigh...) Another four-frame "mini scenario"...

 Don't AH participants have the attention span required
 for a six to twelve frame event?

 No matter...I'll be gone all summer but in the fall I'd
 sure like to look forward to an "in depth" event....

    =GB= ( can someone really miss DoK??... )
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 214thCavalier on May 25, 2004, 02:22:53 PM
I don't care if its over 4 or 12 frames as long as its not as one sided as the current Kurland scenario.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 26, 2004, 11:52:26 PM
7 pm, CET, 8 am PAC?

Do we have anything about rules? any overview?
For how many players we target?
no ground units?
again 3rd country radar operators or HTC improve possibilities? ;-)
Any chance for dedicated bombers for this battle? D0-17, ju86, he 111?(versions from 1940, not like ju88 current we have) (utopia zero ;-) )

germans will use 109E, current version we have or we can expect som earlier model? (utopia ;-) )
Do italians will have som biplanes to fly?(utopia bis ;-) )
Any chance of get ride of lazzer clip guns from bombers?

thats all so far

for sure i will bring bunch of Poles, so we do reservation for 303 rd and 302nd fighter squadron. ( should i reminde we fly hurricanes? ;-)


i know you like my trolling

regards
ramzey
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Flossy on May 27, 2004, 01:43:41 AM
1pm Eastern = 10am Pacific.....   ;)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 28, 2004, 12:47:09 AM
well, this is last answer i like to read :-)
thx Helen
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: jordi on May 28, 2004, 08:07:20 AM
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
7 pm, CET, 8 am PAC?

Jordi - We will be going back to the normal Scenario Time of 3:00 PM ET for frame dates.


Do we have anything about rules? any overview?

Jordi - The CM's will be going ove rthe rules and will start posting them for the CO's and comamnd staff to look over next week.

For how many players we target?

Jordi - 200 or more

no ground units?

Jordi - possible for Frame #4 if the LW is able to achieve goals to try to invade England.

again 3rd country radar operators or HTC improve possibilities? ;-)

Jordi - Yes on 3rd Country Radar Operators - Not sure what HTC will be able to do. We will look at what new thigns are offered in AH II once we get our hands on it.

Any chance for dedicated bombers for this battle? D0-17, ju86, he 111?(versions from 1940, not like ju88 current we have) (utopia zero ;-) )

Jordi - Ju87's - Not sure we will get anything else - would be nice to get an earlier bomber - utopia :)


germans will use 109E, current version we have or we can expect som earlier model? (utopia ;-) )

Jordi - Current for now - not sure we will get anything new ?

Do italians will have som biplanes to fly?(utopia bis ;-) )

Jordi - Not that I am aware of :) Were they involved in BoB ?

Any chance of get ride of lazzer clip guns from bombers?

Jordi - Not sure till we test in AHII with any arena settings that may affect those settings.


thats all so far

for sure i will bring bunch of Poles, so we do reservation for 303 rd and 302nd fighter squadron. ( should i reminde we fly hurricanes? ;-)


Jordi - Just lett he RAF CO Know !  :)



i know you like my trolling

regards
ramzey


thanks,
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on May 28, 2004, 09:07:14 AM
Jordi your killing me JU87's ? or does this mean no JU88's
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: jordi on May 28, 2004, 11:56:14 AM
We did not have the Ju87 Stuka's in the first BoB. We do now and we will fit them in.

We also have the Ju88's still.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 28, 2004, 02:21:06 PM
Jordi,
Our expirience in last BoB Scenario with ju88 was not so good.
This  mid 40's bomber outperform hurricane mk1, something what was not happend during WW2 battle.
Simply ju88 pilot not need to care too much about catching them by hurricane pilots and in consequence change goals f scenario.
Thats beucose bombers can defend yourself without fighters help and not get too much losses.

We have couple months to BoB. I hope once HTC will be so kinde and help a little to match historical planeset. Its allmost shame for AH, with this all variety of multi engine bombers for allies , have only 2 axis bombers.

Please Jordi do something, i belive in you:)

regards
ramzey
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on May 28, 2004, 02:26:53 PM
Ramzey did you receive my email ?
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: jordi on May 28, 2004, 03:27:31 PM
I THINK the Ju88's were given ORDERS to stick to 75% throttle setting to reduce the speed advantage they had over the Spits / Hurri's.

I will try to verify that.

Not sure WHAT we will get if anything between now and Frame #1 day.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 28, 2004, 06:01:10 PM
neg  Falcon, shot me at ramzeyca@op.pl

Jordi , you are Gandalf of AH scenarios, try it please
I think even if HTC is outy of schedule with AH2, could try do  something for his most loyal players who allways fly good events. And keep open accounts only for this reason.

As i remember 75% of throttle was only idea, but who can chk or force bomber pilot to run on full speed in danger?
If thats will be a rule, for sure it will be dead rule.

regards
ramzey
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on May 28, 2004, 06:53:47 PM
Quote
Originally posted by jordi
I THINK the Ju88's were given ORDERS to stick to 75% throttle setting to reduce the speed advantage they had over the Spits / Hurri's.

I will try to verify that.

Not sure WHAT we will get if anything between now and Frame #1 day.


In the first BoB my personal orders to the ju88s (I was Axis CO; Wotan) were to fly at about 80% throttle. The Ju88a4 is actually a later variant and a bit faster (between 12 and 24 mph faster at alt) then the A1 and A5 (a4 airframe, a1 engines).

In reality the ju88 suffers from a fuel bug (remember the slot the ju88s had to be moved further down) that forced us to fly much lower then 80% (about 60% IIRC).

 I had good ju88 planners and pilots.Their formations were so good they ended the scenario with the most kills. Allied pilots still complained they were to fast and too tough :p

The Ju87d3 is a bit faster then the b1/b2s that were in the real BoB. But its so slow as not to matter. It also carries a heavier bomb load. I assume no 1800kg bombs allowed?

The big issue in the 1st BoB was the targets for the ju88s. Every hangar in Southern England had to be destroyed. It was virtually impossible to accomplish this with the low number of 88 pilots and the new bomb site. Theres was no consideration made for losses, which Ironically was the whole LW objective of the battle (to shoot down large numbers of allied fighters)

You wont get new planes but each plane for both sides may get (if you have skinners to volunteer) their own unique and historical skin. Provided the event is run in Ah2.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on May 28, 2004, 07:25:28 PM
Ramzey email sent
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 28, 2004, 09:54:31 PM
in 1940 ju88 was not main german bomber. And was so rare as spit mk2. Thats main problem.
I still remember  BOB from WB where i saw icon of he111
Funny is from all events we can play, only midway have allmost full coverage of planes and most accurate.
Skins cannot fill som holes in game. Thats annoying, after so many years we play this scenario we still cant get coirrect planeset for most importand, most famus most playable scenario.
Mayby is better just buy ace pack for fb......... for sure cheaper

Falcon still not get it


regards
ramzey
(flametrower)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Seeker on May 28, 2004, 10:03:58 PM
Please put me down for a Spit ride.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: B17Skull12 on May 29, 2004, 12:30:02 AM
also scenario planners might wanna keep in mind by the time the event is ready to start HT and pyro *might* have an early version of He111 or Do 17 out.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: artik on May 29, 2004, 01:13:59 AM
what do you think to do it just without Ju-88,
Me110 and Stukas are good enough as bumbers.....

Ju88 will be unstopable planes.....
Flying in formation and having same amout of rear guns like Spit. It is just suicide to attack formation of Ju88, also spit will not be able to make HO attacks or others because of luck of the speed. Only dead 6 attacks will be possible because of Ju88 speed. Where Ju88 defence guns will make no chances to attack.

That is kind of situation where it is better to use only Me110 and Stukas - at least they were operational and they not clearly outperform RAF planes.

I know this issue were discussed a lot... But Ju88 not best subsit for Do-17/He-111
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68DevilM on May 29, 2004, 03:36:54 AM
yeah me want a spit too
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: artik on May 29, 2004, 06:06:37 AM
Some questions:

(I know but I really enjoyed that in scenario - only way that forced me to stay for 3 hours)


I know you are working on it but.....

regards
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: LLv34_Snefens on May 29, 2004, 06:31:40 AM
Quote
Will RAF have some strike squadrons to prevent German invention to Britan? If they will which planes?


Yes, Typhoons substituting for Blenheims :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: jordi on May 29, 2004, 07:46:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by artik
Some questions:
  • What are going to be life rules? Any chance for rescue mission over La Manche - that would be great :)
Jordi - Yes We are working on Resuce for RAF Pilots.

(I know but I really enjoyed that in scenario - only way that forced me to stay for 3 hours)
  • Will RAF have some strike squadrons to prevent German invention to Britan? If they will which planes?
Jordi - Maybe - but not till frame #4 if the Axis tries to Invade.


  • The bomber squadrons will fly bombers all the frames? Or there will be some dual roles?
Jordi - We are looking some Bomber / Bomber Rides and some Fighter / Bomber Rides.


[/list]

I know you are working on it but.....

regards
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on May 29, 2004, 07:52:58 AM
:) I remeber that Snefens, I flew G2s with the Fins (Wotan at the time). The good thing is they ran out of gas....

BoB without Bombers artik?

The Ju87 wasnt a major player in BoB except early on...
Even the 110c4 the lw has for this event is has a db601n eng. It was rare during bob as well.

So the lw with E4 (no E3s) Ju88a4 (no ealier LW bomber) and JU87d3 (no earlier LW dive bomber).

The Ju88A4 is not some uber bird, I shot down plenty in the CT in a Hurri 1 during BoB set ups....

Ramzey

You asked for BoB every year :)

If you want it, then its gotta be run with the planes availble.

Most RAF in the 1st BoB ( I rode 3 frames as bomber Gunner) tried to ho ju88s with 303s then had to turn 180 and flew right up their six, only to be shot down as they flew into a hail of 7mm....

Most allied guys dont attck bombers much. Maybe they will practice this time :)

Try b17s at 27 k while in an 190a8. In Bob our bombers were at 15 -17k...

Little tip about the AH DM, Velocity at impact determins the amount of damage. So when you flew dead 6 into bombers you are flying into the Ju88s bullets, So bullet velocity at impact + the speed of your  AC = more damage then say a Hurri 1 firing at a ju88 from the rear (bullet velocity - the speed of the ju88 = less damage). So theres no uber ju88, just poor tactics :)

In fact our Ju88s slowed down when under attack to increase the closure rate of dead 6 attackers...

However, I had lotsa fun, in frame 4 I shot down 2 hurris otd over the channel while on Vox giving orders and typing...
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: artik on May 29, 2004, 09:30:56 AM
Quote
Yes We are working on Resuce for RAF Pilots.


WOW..... that's really great :aok To good to be true....
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Flossy on May 29, 2004, 09:54:29 AM
There'd better be [level ;)] bombers in BoB, or I won't be flying in it.  :p
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: jordi on May 29, 2004, 11:39:15 AM
Ju87's and Ju88's  . ..

Beyond that - ask HTC !  :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Easyscor on May 29, 2004, 11:55:43 AM
Quote
Originally posted by artik
what do you think to do it just without Ju-88,

Easy - Now that just goes TOO far! ;)

Ju88 will be unstopable planes.....
Flying in formation and having same amout of rear guns like Spit. It is just suicide to attack formation of Ju88, also spit will not be able to make HO attacks or others because of luck of the speed. Only dead 6 attacks will be possible because of Ju88 speed. Where Ju88 defence guns will make no chances to attack.

Easy - Off subject a bit but I've often wondered why the Ju88 didn't have better guns.  Could it be because it was fast enough when introduced that this was the situation then too?

That is kind of situation where it is better to use only Me110 and Stukas - at least they were operational and they not clearly outperform RAF planes.

Easy - What Flossy said. :p
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Easyscor on May 29, 2004, 12:16:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Little tip about the AH DM, Velocity at impact determins the amount of damage. So when you flew dead 6 into bombers you are flying into the Ju88s bullets, So bullet velocity at impact + the speed of your  AC = more damage then say a Hurri 1 firing at a ju88 from the rear (bullet velocity - the speed of the ju88 = less damage). So theres no uber ju88, just poor tactics :)
.

You're right but actually the closure rate between the fighter and the Ju88 is the same for both.

The drag effect on the bullets is what makes the difference as it slows the bullets velocity.  I've got the formula around here some where but generally, it's the difference in airspeed of the bullets that matter as both bullets are fighting the force of drag which uses the airspeed Velocity squared in the formula and with an aircraft airspeed of say 250 mph, the Ju88's bullets have 367 ft/sec less airspeed in the drag formula and the fighter has 367 ft/sec more airspeed in the bullet drag formula, and then you square each.  The result is the bullets fired from the Ju88 carry more of their original energy then those fired by the fighter on it's dead six.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 30, 2004, 01:33:52 AM
@Artik
as im not familiar with  middle east post war battles, looks like you are not familiar  with BoB ;)
BoB without level bombers is not BoB ;-)



@ Wotan , dude you hurt me much!!!
Ju88 is not unstopable but is very hard bird to destroy by browning bean guns.
Its not true RAF not try head on attacks on bombers, at last i lead 2 of them. But you have only one chance for that and its about 5-7 sec with 1-3 sec burst  to fire and make adjustment. After that we need to reverse flight and attack again. Due high speed of ju88 and much lower speed of interceptors then during initial attack, many hurricanes was victim of lazer guns from ju88.


For me major bug and over modeling in AH, special earlu years bombers is missing of clip guns.
If you look at BOB movie, and im sure you saw many document movies, you can see clip loaded german defense guns. I was talking about that with expert just after previous scenario.
He said guns was not over heat during battle. Major issue was time of clip change 10-20 s , plus sometimes clip was not fitted correct ( due battle stress) and need adjustments and that takes more time. RIght now you can fire at once long 35 sec burst from ju88 with very high fire ratio. Thats give gunner possibility of amazing accuracy.
None of bombers during this battle have unlimited acces to ammunition he carry for gunners withaut need of changing clip.

We wrote everything about  overmodeling ju88 for this event 2 years ago. Sad HTC not make progress in this  during this time. And looking at AH2 this was not corrected too. Why when you firing from cannon you need to wait for reload , but from clipped gun not. heh


ramzey
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on May 30, 2004, 01:49:10 AM
I agree with about reloading, The long burst form the 88s make getting rounds on target easy like spraying a hose...

I flew a few frames gunning for freeze's 88 while Axis Co.

I can say the RAF that attcked his bombers  flew head on, lead a few hits then reversed and came up dead 6. When this happened our ju88s slowed down and killed many of them.

There was sufficient pressure from the hurricanes to make the bomb drop  miss. Freeze was the only guys in his formation to get bombs on target, the rest missed badly. I even saw bombs landing in the channel some 5 mile away from their target.

ANother thing about the 88 is the pilot damage. With all that glass in the front a good ho of 303s would be enought to kill the pilot, co pilot and / or bombadier / forward gunner....

Its like a force field now.

But you know I kid you...

The LW in AH for BoB has a planeset that is slightly late for the period. Until HT models new planes theres nothing we can do about that.

Have you flown the E4 in AH2, its roll rate has omproved so the E should put up an even better fight...

I just hope one the Victory Conditons in the next BoB takes into account losses. Thsi will give the raf a better option then just flying into the bombers.

It will also give the 109s somethign to do besides fly around, they will need to kill Hurris and spits to win.....
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 30, 2004, 02:25:38 AM
Hurris pilot have big pressure from HQ to try intercept many ju88 as we can. Thats why we was pushed to repeat attack from back.
Instead of just wait for bombers heading back home

But computer games death in one frame dont mean much and dont affect numbers of planes used in frame secound. So loss of too many planes not need to be consider as loosing strategical resources for future.

Imo is not the way to force LW to destroy all hangars on all airfields in england by establish that as goal for victory.
Body count should be most importand  for score. FIghter plane loss counted as one pilot-plane loss (1 + 1) . ANd bomber lost as 5 crew (points)x 3 + 3 planes. That can "force"  german fighters to defend bombers as during BoB 1940. NOt making free sweep at 35kft ;-)
Plus extra points for LW for destroying ground targets, to make score system balanced and accurate.

Addition to this can be SAR who can save som points for each side.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 30, 2004, 02:34:20 AM
btw, if we wil have still only ju88 and lazer guns for them, not much work will left for 109's

i forgot about one more big pain in a@@, framerate
when i dive on ju88 formations and  had fps about 5. Same as during  ruhr scenario. So, when i pick up target and start firing from d400, my wake up was 2k behinde bombers :) when my fps back to norm
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: SOB on May 30, 2004, 05:18:41 AM
Quote

Jordi - Yes We are working on Resuce for RAF Pilots.

Yay!  Finally, killing guys in their chutes will be something more than just a fun past time!  :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on May 30, 2004, 07:26:25 AM
Artik,

Here's some info on the Stuka during BoB:

At the start of the war in September 1939, the Luftwaffe had:

336 Stukas (serviceable 288).

For the Battle in the West, on May 11, 1940 there were:

414 Stukas (serviceable 345).

By August 1st. for the Battle of Britain the number available was:

327(serviceable 261).

The losses for July had been low with just 12 lost.

Between August 1 and August 18, 47 were lost due to enemy action and 4 more during operations.

The Stukas were withdrawn from the Battle of Britain on August 18, 1940.

Originally the LW tried to draw the RAF out over the Channel by using Stukas to target channel Shipping. Stukas also targeted radar installations etc, but after failing to draw out and destroy the RAF in the air the LW shifted tactics and set about to bomb and destroy RAF airfields in southern and south-east England.

Stuka losses were high but their withdrawal seemed to coincide with the LW change of tactics. Tactics for which the Stuka was completely unsuited for.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Vladd on May 30, 2004, 07:38:19 AM
Unit size: I don't think RAF squadrons being 6 planes strong really worked last time. Against 15 Ju88s they were only likely to get a couple of kills at best, although that's quite historical I guess.  What wasn't historical is the losses they suffered in return due to the AH buff gunnery model and the near impossibility of disabling gunners and pilots in the bombers. Six O'clock attacks might not be ideal technique but read many RAF accounts of the battle and it's quite clear this method was used commonly by many pilots without it being a near suicidal approach.

Not much we can do about the latter point. But fewer RAF units overall but with 12 a/c per unit would be a good idea.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Vladd on May 30, 2004, 07:47:18 AM
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey

Imo is not the way to force LW to destroy all hangars on all airfields in england by establish that as goal for victory.
Body count should be most importand  for score. FIghter plane loss counted as one pilot-plane loss (1 + 1) . ANd bomber lost as 5 crew (points)x 3 + 3 planes. That can "force"  german fighters to defend bombers as during BoB 1940. NOt making free sweep at 35kft ;-)
Plus extra points for LW for destroying ground targets, to make score system balanced and accurate.




Totally, totally agree with this. 109s killing the RAF was the only way the LW could have won the real battle of Britain, scoring in this event should reflect that. Remember, the LW bombers did not close down any RAF base for more than a few hours during the battle, nor were any RAF units grounded at any time due to airfield services damage.

Bombers should be tasked to hit a certain number of targets and get some token bonus points for doing so. But bomber scoring should be much less important than air attrition scoring IMO.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on May 30, 2004, 08:13:39 AM
From my experience in the past few scenarios is that there are very few folks who can actually hit their target while under pressure while flying a bomber..

Large grouped targets (like in Big Week) or as was used in AK and the Ruhr "area bombing" (where by X number of bombs need to land inside X space) is by far preferrable to picking off individual structures.

You could end up with 100 divebombing ju88s if they need to hit pinpoint targets :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: artik on May 30, 2004, 08:45:06 AM
What do you think about this:
Ramzey - I know that BoB is not BoB without Do-17 however it is not BoB with Ju-88. At least Me110 and Ju87 (even later version) are more relevant then Ju-88.

Ju88 for Spit I/Hurricane I is same as Ar234 for Mustang.
That is why Me-110 and Ju87 IMHO are better in these role.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Flossy on May 30, 2004, 08:58:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by artik
  • Force all gunners as rule tested by CMs/COs wo waste all defence ammo accept of one rear gun.
    CM/CO joins each fromation in flight as gunner and make sure that there are no more bullets in all unrelevant guns.[/B]
Absolutely not!  We need to be able to use all the guns for firing different angles.  Heck how would you like having to unload cannons from fighters?
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on May 30, 2004, 10:09:13 AM
Are kidding me? The Ju88 was very much part of BoB...

http://www.battleofbritain.net/

Quote
This was proven in a number of mass attacks by Ju88s during the Battle of Britain. One of the most successful of the Luftwaffe raids was and attack on Portsmouth and the Isle of Wight on August 12th 1940. They managed to carry out their attack successfully, then if they were intercepted by Britsh fighters as they were on this occasion, they were able to dive at high speed thus evading contact with the fighters.


You will have plenty of time to get to altitude, the RAF will have radar and ground controllers to vector you in.

12k lol......

Waste all their defensive ammo?  lol

Ju88=Ar234????

The spit and hurri are faster then the ju88 at all altitudes. I dunno who sold you on this but it sounds like you need to do a bit of offline testing...

Dont fear the 88, its not some uber bomber...
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: artik on May 30, 2004, 11:06:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Flossy
Absolutely not!  We need to be able to use all the guns for firing different angles.  Heck how would you like having to unload cannons from fighters?


Ok lets see......
Each Ju-88 has 4-7.8mm guns firing in rear direction.........
3x4=12 rear guns firing.... vs 8 of Hurri/Spit
The formation has 3x2=6 enignes.... vs 1 of Hurri/Spit
The cosntrucion is much stronger..... then that of Spit/Hurri
Add to it cover of 109Es

So how do you suggest to shoot Ju88 down?
Yes it is possible but it is allmost suicide.....

If defence firepower will be reduced it will give better chances.....
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 30, 2004, 11:24:50 AM
Artik, its not suicde and not impossible
Just need som practice.

Directing one guns to target made by htc give amazing focus of bomber defence fire. Something whats never happend in RL + high ratio of gun firing and too stable gun platform.
Its very hard but can be done. Its not MA where you need to destroy all planes.

Learn one thing, you cannot say people not use game futures if they can use it. SO you cannot order to anyone fly 70% of max speed same as you cannot order to use one gun;)
Cuz you cannot check it later
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 30, 2004, 11:26:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Flossy
There'd better be [level ;)] bombers in BoB, or I won't be flying in it.  :p


Helen , can i cal lyou Helga from now?;-)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: artik on May 30, 2004, 11:35:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
you cannot order to use one gun;)
Cuz you cannot check it later


That is the point - you can.

It just requires more work from CM/CO.
The way is simple - CM joins each formation (how many Ju-88 we will have???) and makes sure that they wasted all guns that required - it is quite simple - however requires some work - but it is possible.

It is good option IMO to reduce the defence ability of Ju88.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on May 30, 2004, 11:55:41 AM
Ramzey,

    Eamiled you and have recieved a receipt of confirmation that the email was successful to your account. Have not received a reply. Can you contact me at http://www.ybej@optonline.net
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Easyscor on May 30, 2004, 11:56:16 AM
Vladd?
ramsey?
artik!

I haven't even seen the rules but from this thread I've about decided to sign up for a Spit or 109.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on May 30, 2004, 12:00:41 PM
Easyscore,

          That is because there are no rules as of yet. Although some of the arguments here are worth exploring and we will. If you are interested in Allies contact me at http://www.ybej@optonline.net or are you going to be one of those Ju88 pilots that I will be hunting :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on May 30, 2004, 12:14:12 PM
Ramzey,

         Your scoring idea seems sound to me. I have cut and pasted it into the Battle of Britain Command forum so that all CMs,COs and XOs are able to read and comment on it. Hopefully we will be able to get this into the rules or something close
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Easyscor on May 30, 2004, 12:22:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
That can "force"  german fighters to defend bombers as during BoB 1940. NOt making free sweep at 35kft ;-)
This one issue, fighters at 35k, I agree is a problem in most events but it was solved in CAP by turning the radar on at the desired maximum altitude for both countries.  If some yahoo climbs too high, he shows up for everyone to see.  I wish this had been done in Ruhr Valley.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Flossy on May 30, 2004, 12:30:10 PM
Quote
Originally posted by ramzey
Helen , can i cal lyou Helga from now?;-)
LOL!  :p  Anyway, I fly for whichever side has the [level] bombers, regardless of country.  :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Flossy on May 30, 2004, 12:38:06 PM
Quote
Originally posted by artik
It just requires more work from CM/CO.
Don't you think the CMs have enough to do?  Not to mention having to re-check anyone who needs to reup due to crashing or discoing.....
Quote
It is good option IMO to reduce the defence ability of Ju88.
Yeah, it's not enough that a single fighter can often take out a formation of 3 in one pass.....  :rolleyes:
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: artik on May 30, 2004, 01:34:13 PM
Maybe you right...........

It's my buff fobia. I prefere to met 1 vs 2-3 fighters and I'll have more chances to survie then attacking BUFFs.........

I have been even shut down easily trying to attack B5N. I'm not talking about something like B-26 or B-17 [ :eek: screaming and running away :eek: ].

:aok
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Easyscor on May 30, 2004, 04:51:44 PM
Since I usually only fly bombers in these events, I’ll put forth my comments in this otherwise fighter centric thread.

In most of these events, the defenders know exactly when and where the bombers are going which is a major flaw IMO.  We solved part of that in Ruhr with the loosely defined short and mid range’ targets.

Add to that flaw the tendency to think of  bombers only as bait with some minor scoring roll and you fail to give due credit to the difficulty of delivering bombs on the target in organized scenarios.

One of the critical aspects to designing the next BoB is working around the mix of level bombers and jabo’s like the Stuka and the 110.  This is one of the things that went wrong with the previous scenario.  Level bombers and Jabos are two completely different critters when it comes to target selection and game play.  To be both realistic and playable, careful thought must be given to the size, hardness, placement and scoring of the targets.  Forget about 3,000 lb hangers.  That was never realistic and is a game play concession for the MA customer where there is a limited number of hangers at each base.  Hangers should start with a hardness of 100 to 200 lbs and be placed depending on the type of ‘bomber’ associated with the target.  Ack should play a major roll in insuring which bombing method is used on which targets.  You should set lots of defensive ack at the targets you want for the level bombers and little or no ack at the Jabo targets.  Because Flak is currently (as far as I know) tied to ack settings, care should be used not to put many flak guns on the map even though we all like crunchy flak.

All the rest of my comments assume there are two different target classes, one designed to be attacked by level bombers and the other class designed to be attacked by Jabos.  A 110 or Stuka would be committing suicide to attack the target set up for the level bombers and the Ju88s would not score enough ‘dead hangers’ if they went for the Jabo targets.

One scoring possibility brought up is the Ruhr method which counts the bombs dropped into a small area but there were many problems in Ruhr that were never fully worked out and it left the Allied command staff testing the terrain right up until the night before Frame 1 instead of coordinating and practicing their forces.  Another problem with the Ruhr method is that it doesn’t account for the difference between level bombers and Jabos.  It’s still a valid option but only if you designate different targets for the level bombers and the Jabos, and frankly, the game play is not vary satisfying.


I would favor another possibility closer to RL and build a terrain with small fields with lots of isolated generic(?) hangers and few ack for Jabo targets and exaggerate a simulated RL airfield factory complexes for the level  bombers with rows of bomber(?) hangers and lots of ack at large airfields.  Unlike the hangers at a small field or the Ports at Kurland, these hangers need to be in boxes like Guadalcanal but arranged in multiple 3x3 or 4x4 grids as a game concession so the bomb runs can be from any of 4 directions instead of only two like Guadalcanal.  This would simulate a large preexisting field with rows of permanent hangers and ‘plant buildings’ that look like hangers.  Several RL examples come to mind but almost any permanent airfield has rows of hangers along it’s boarders.  A single Ju88 pilot should be able to drop a stick of bombs and take 3 to 4 hangers in a single pass and a group should be able to take out all the hangers they need to for their part of the bombing point without breaking formation or being forced to fly the same approach each frame.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Easyscor on May 30, 2004, 04:56:17 PM
Falcon I'm undecided as yet and I can’t maintain the level of participation I have in the last two events.

If there's no achievable bomber point, like Kurland, or, if I read ramzey's scoring proposal right and it’s adopted, a Ju88 formation would be worth 18 points and a fighter worth 2, I'll just show up as a fighter walk-on for whichever side needs the numbers and not worry about scoring points.

Thanks for the invite. :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Seeker on May 30, 2004, 05:21:32 PM
Random stuff:

1) The Ju88 belongs i the BoB; Artik; there's no question of it. As for Alt caps: they just cause arguments. Far better to be creative with arena settings than it is thinking of unenforceable rules.

2) Same goes for the idea of firing off one gun on the Ju88's. It's impractacle to enforce; which will lead to abuse; which leads to whine fests.

3) While the point about buff drivers rarely being given thier true worth in scenarios is valid; there's very rarely anything in events punishing them for poor accuracy. Bumping up target points and creativity with respect to targrt selection and design offer interesting variables; but shouldn't there be inaccuracy penalties of some sort too?

4) Lastly; has any thought been given to  the possibility of running a side swap event; as we used to do in AW? There are some events, notably the Battle of Britain; Ploesti and Pearl Harbour which are ostensibly so one sided as to be almost impossible to make a fair battle of with a rule set that even tries to come close to history. I always thought the idea of letting both sides try both roles and see which team makes a better job of planning and execution as a fighting force a sound way to make up for the iniquities of some set ups.

P.S. Has there been any hints of any new event facilities with the release of AHII? Anything new on squad management? Arena settings? Can the CM's set icon type yet?
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Vladd on May 30, 2004, 06:05:58 PM
I'd just like to point out that in Kurland there was 1 level bomber unit in the whole event, with 7 available pilot slots. It was not filled. And as for bombing accuracy, even with areas to aim at in the Ruhr event many people still couldn't hit the target and misses were frequent.

This is not a new experience for a scenario. As far as a resolution goes,  Easy's target layout for the level bombers is probably worth a look, either that or go with area bombing again. Either way, experience says that most Ju88s will reach the target, even without escort (and that's also quite historical for the BoB).

So the problems I have with placing too much emphasis on rewarding successful bombing in this one is that:

A) The bombers will reach the target regardless

B) Most of the walkons manning them won't be able to hit anything, unless you make the targets REAL BIG.

And that is not to denigrate the experienced and capable buffers we have playing this game. It's just to point out that we really don't have enough of them. I wish it were otherwise :(

What I'd like to see is successful bombing maybe swinging an otherwise close result. But if the RAF (for example) get mullered in the air the LW shouldn't end up losing because the buffs missed the target. Conversely, if the K / D ratio runs in the RAF's favour, successfully bombing an installation should not deprive them of victory. It didn't in 1940.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: ramzey on May 30, 2004, 09:00:39 PM
Falcon, email answered

For sure you guys can forget about bf110 as jabo. Its not happend during BoB , should be not happend in scenario.

My scoring idea its just raw idea, need soem work for sure.

Main idea is how to drag peoples to fly event, noty just play them every week.
Thats why we need this "little" help from HTC to rise gameplay by giving people variety of planes to fly

Easycore, good point with radar
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on May 30, 2004, 10:06:01 PM
Quote
For sure you guys can forget about bf110 as jabo. Its not happend during BoB , should be not happend in scenario.


Ramzey,

The 110C-4/b in Aces High was the same variant of 110 used by Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain as a Jabo. This group also used jabo 109s. In fact I have a skin I was planning to do for this unit.

They flew many sorties against airfields and radar stations. They had many notable successes

See this book:

MESSERSCHMITT BF 110 BOMBSIGHTS OVER ENGLAND: Erprobungsgruppe 210 in the Battle of Britain

By John Vasco

ISBN:
0 7643 1445

Write up for the book...

Quote
The activities of Erprobungsgruppe 210 over southern England during the bitter fighting of summer 1940 are recorded here in depth.  The detailed text is divided into separate chapters, one for each of the months from July through October 1940 and one covering November 1940 through April 1941.  The comprehensive operational history provided in the text is accompanied by more than 280 original period photographs, most previously unpublished from the private collections of veterans of the unit, or their surviving relatives.  The extensive appendices include a complete damage/loss list from July 1940 to April 1941, technical information on the Me Bf 110C-6 and the Seilbomben, Flugbuch (Flight Book) entries and post-combat reports, and a complete set of color profiles of aircraft of the squadron.  Formed on July 1, 1940 Erprobungsgruppe 210 was given the task of operationally testing the standard fighters on charge with the Luftwaffe in new and different roles.  Their main role was the use of the Messerschmitt 109 and 110 as fighter-bombers, lacking both the level flight of the conventional bomber and the steep dive of the Stuka.  The mode of attack was the shallow dive, using only the standard Revi gunsight as a bombsight to line-up the target.  They were also the only unit in 1940 to operate the Messerschmitt Bf 110C-6, the version that carried a 30mm MG 101 Kanone in place of the standard 2 x 20mm Kanone.  Information is provided here on Seilbomben, a weapon which the unit would have used to black-out the electricity network in the south-east of England had an invasion taken place in 1940.  In filling a significant gap concerning Luftwaffe fighter-bomber raids over England during the Battle of Britain, and correcting the still-frequent inaccuracies which are to be seen in other written works concerning the unit, this book will appeal to the general reader, enthusiast and modeler alike.


Not only did this unit do Jabo but several pilots had 5 kills or more during BoB.

In the 1st Aces High event I had 2 units to fly as Erg 210 running Jabo missions.

I dont see why the Erg 210 shouldnt be a part of the upcoming BoB event.

I dunno what version of BoB some of read about but the ju88 was common (in fact on Aug 20th 302 Squadrons's first recorded kills during BoB were against 2 ju88s.)

110s and 109s did fly Jabo missions, Stukas were only apart fo BoB for short period before being withdrawn. Ju88s could really dive away and escape from Hurris and spits...
 
What kind of event of you all wanting?

ju87s at 10k after having sprayed out 75% of their ammo? :p

In fact the Ju87 should be dropped from the event after the 1st or 2nd frame...

The RAF won the last AH bob scenario.

I can provide a complete OOB for the LW for BoB and listing the number planes available to each group.

While jabo 110s and ju88s werent the "mainstay" of the Battle of Britain (Just like the D11 and B17 werent the mainstay of the "Ruhr"). They were there in large enough numbers and had such an impact on the battle that excluding them were be wrong.

Every one wishes AH had He-111s and Do17z and the 110C3 and Ju87B-2 but Ah doesnt. (FYI the reputation of the HE-111 was that of a plane tougher and harder to shoot down then either the Do17 or Ju88).
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: B17Skull12 on May 31, 2004, 12:21:24 AM
ruhr was atc scenario for germany. rember allies had no radar over germany at the time:rolleyes:

btw this is at easy.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: B17Skull12 on May 31, 2004, 12:26:57 AM
Hum i just got an idea.


What if you places hangars in areas that are representing the aircraft factories in britian.  The bombers destroyer a factory etc. and the raf loses the amount of the plane that the factory has been designated as for the next frame.  All of that type of plane that survived the frame are still avialable for use during the next frame.


Thoughs?
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Easyscor on May 31, 2004, 01:48:04 AM
Quote
Originally posted by B17Skull12
Hum i just got an idea.


What if you places hangars in areas that are representing the aircraft factories in britian.  The bombers destroyer a factory etc. and the raf loses the amount of the plane that the factory has been designated as for the next frame.  All of that type of plane that survived the frame are still avialable for use during the next frame.


Thoughs?
How would you like to loose your ride for the rest of the event after Frame 2? ;)

The hope is to get people to play, not drive them away.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: B17Skull12 on May 31, 2004, 11:03:08 AM
make em be field guns.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Flossy on May 31, 2004, 05:10:28 PM
Quote
Originally posted by B17Skull12
make em be field guns.
Quote
The hope is to get people to play, not drive them away.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on May 31, 2004, 07:28:06 PM
Exactly, could not have said it better Flossy:aok
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Flossy on May 31, 2004, 08:01:35 PM
I was just reiterating what Easyscor said.  ;)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: B17Skull12 on May 31, 2004, 09:58:41 PM
j/k make like 20 factories each products x numbers of planes.  If one factory dies then switch the pilots who lost a ride to anyother plane.

but i dont think that would fly my alot of spit dweebs.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: jordi on May 31, 2004, 11:24:18 PM
BAck . ..

One thing we are forced with - for the first AH II Terrain we have to go with Standard objects and fields and such.

SO no special fileds or objects this time around.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: B17Skull12 on June 01, 2004, 12:03:56 AM
ok nm.
jordi just put the nail in my idea lol.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Easyscor on June 01, 2004, 12:15:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by jordi
BAck . ..

One thing we are forced with - for the first AH II Terrain we have to go with Standard objects and fields and such.

SO no special fileds or objects this time around.
With all due respect, under the circumstances I think you should rethink putting on BoB.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on June 01, 2004, 12:41:35 AM
Jordi welcome back. My question is how close is AH2 should we actually be disregarding AH or plan for both just in case there is no AH2
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Flossy on June 01, 2004, 02:27:29 AM
I think AH2 is fairly imminent, possibly this week, now that Kurland is over.  Just a guess on my part, though; none of us know for sure.  :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on June 01, 2004, 03:01:07 AM
Even with AH2 default objects it would fairly easy to construct a bombing victory condition based on something like "tonnage on target".

From a quick test at a vbase the enter thing is destroyable.

The "base" is set as a runway object. Sort of like a "void". Setting the runway "hardness" at a given level will require the ju88s to land bombs inside the perimeter but not necessarily force the bomber pilots to pick off individaul buildings. You can set the runway object at whetever hardeness you want. The only draw back is a large all bases will require the same amount of ord.

The "hills" (like where the tower sits etc) in the bases are currently set as "barriers". In AH1 the barrier objects are not "destroyable".

So even if you convert the old AH1 large BoB terrain to AH2 you can use the default objects wih no should you decide on something like tonnage on target.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Roscoroo on June 01, 2004, 03:57:20 AM
its hard to say when ah1 gets the ax ,but ah2 is getting very close ( they need to solve the stuttering problem that alot of us are getting for the 1st few dogfights or running a scenario is gunna be a nightmare)

As for the walk on's in BoB that fly LW let them fly ju 87's and dive bomb .

and I think the manned ack is a great idea for the guys that die on the Raf side .
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: jordi on June 01, 2004, 06:59:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Batz
Even with AH2 default objects it would fairly easy to construct a bombing victory condition based on something like "tonnage on target".

From a quick test at a vbase the enter thing is destroyable.

The "base" is set as a runway object. Sort of like a "void". Setting the runway "hardness" at a given level will require the ju88s to land bombs inside the perimeter but not necessarily force the bomber pilots to pick off individaul buildings. You can set the runway object at whetever hardeness you want. The only draw back is a large all bases will require the same amount of ord.

The "hills" (like where the tower sits etc) in the bases are currently set as "barriers". In AH1 the barrier objects are not "destroyable".

So even if you convert the old AH1 large BoB terrain to AH2 you can use the default objects wih no should you decide on something like tonnage on target.


Thanks for the test.

WE will have to test it online and see what the logs tell us but it SOUNDS like what we tried to do in Ruhr.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: B17Skull12 on June 01, 2004, 05:24:58 PM
batz i think a new BoB is needed since i remember ht saying that there will be more types of tiles in AH2 TE.
Title: radar
Post by: Valkyrie on June 02, 2004, 10:53:24 AM
An essential element to this scenario should be that the lw can knock out Fighter controllers and radar. The RAF should not be allowed to have invulnerable radar and fighter controllers, it wouldn’t be fair for the guys flying the Ju-88s into the target area. With the new tower graphics it should be included in this event.

Valkyrie
Title: Re: radar
Post by: Seeker on June 02, 2004, 05:51:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Valkyrie
An essential element to this scenario should be that the lw can knock out Fighter controllers and radar.
Valkyrie


I don't believe the LW ever did have much success with attacking radar. The Stuka was the most accurate of all thier bombers; best suited to pin point jabo; but as Wotan points out; they were a suicidal ride by the time the BoB developed in full blood.

What rule set/conditions would you propose?
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: B17Skull12 on June 02, 2004, 06:02:07 PM
A radar tower covers say 50 miles.  if it is destroyed then the radar in that 50 miles goes out.  Space each station 50 miles over the coast or something.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on June 03, 2004, 09:39:22 AM
The RAF had 150 mile radar coverage from the English coast into France.

Their radar did not cover over Britain itself. For that the RAF relied on reports grom ground observers.

Radar was able to be killed in the 1st AH BoB but it wasnt a victory condition (IIRC) and was repaired between frames. I had jabo 110s punch holes in the radar screen to allow room for ju88s to slip in. Base warning range was long so their were only  temporary narrow gaps.

Dont get off track, the lw objective in the BoB was to destroy the RAF, not just get bombers to and fro....

Channel shipping attacks, raids on the radar, airfield raids and and the general bombing campaign were all set to draw the RAF up where they could be killed.
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: 68falcon on June 03, 2004, 09:50:29 AM
Hi Batz,

         You know sir you could really due me a big favor and let them get off track. :)
Title: Next AH Scenario - Battle of Britain 2004
Post by: Batz on June 03, 2004, 10:09:03 AM
:)