Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: gofaster on May 27, 2004, 08:57:35 AM
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What's the secret? I was doing ok in the 109 in AH1, but can't hit squat in AH2. I flew the G6, G2, G10, and F last night and got 0wn3d by Tempests and Spits and such. I completely missed a shot on a F4U-4.
Did the ROF change to be slower?
Did the ballistics get that much worse?
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I can't hit a deflection shot with 109 (been using the F model w/o gondolas) to save my life. I think it's because the gunsite sits low and if you are pulling any +G's you just cant see what's happening. Where you need to land the bullets is below the nose and out of your view.
Was on 6 of a spit a pony and a niki (3 different fights) for quite a while and was ineffective to the point of frustration. Then I gave up trying for deflection and started saving my ammo for neutral G shots I actually managed to kill a couple of planes.
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it feels to me that any rudder input greatly effects your shots now
like it swings the nose out 45deg or something
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I haven't flown the 109 yet in AH2 but I think these statements are true for nearly all planes. High speed, high angle, long range shots are all much harder now. We're gonna have to get used to getting in close and sticking onto the guy for the quick dispatch. I fear even more stick-stirring and fish-flopping.
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Originally posted by Eagler
it feels to me that any rudder input greatly effects your shots now
like it swings the nose out 45deg or something
Rudder ssems to be a lot more of a factor to me too. A "twisty" stick isn't very good for me anymore. I turned off the rudder and hooked up some old flight training rudder pedals and now I am much happier in gunnery and slow manuvers are more steady.
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My rudder seems to grab (ch pro peds) and swing a bit more. I may need to adjust my sliders.
In tight turn fights I found it hard to land the same shots I could in AH1. It may just be a matter of adjustment.
In the mean time instead of pulling gs and firing I try to set up shots where I can unload gs.
FYI when I moved my head positions over from AH1 I found I had to hit home and re save my forward view as it was off. You might check that.
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I thought I was shooting blanks in AH2 too until I realized that I was moving my stick too much while firing and this was totally dispersing my fire. When I started holding my plane real steady I started hitting again. This rules out a lot of snap shooting that you can get away with in AH1, but there is no question that it is more realistic.
Reading books like 'Fly For Your Life' (bio of Bob Tuck) shows us that real life pilots were taught to check their turn/bank indicators before opening fire to make sure they weren't slipping/skidding - which would cause them to miss. AH2 reflects this reality more closely.
Plus - not seeing hit flashes through the dash really affects turn fights a lot for me (and I expect everyone else too). The folks most likely to feel the pain here are turn fighters (zero, la-7 -5, spitV, n1k) because that hits them in their greatest strength.
As usual - people will develop the skills to adapt to the new more realistic conditions.
- Twang
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OK I feel better now, I'm not the only one contemplating suicide thinking I suck in a 109 all of a sudden.
thats a big relief, thanks guys I thought I was going insane.
On another note i've been getting killed by some rediculas lead shots in a high G turn lately, not sure how they are pulling that off.
JustJim1
III/Jabostaffel
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We should call this the "109 Veteran Support Group" or something. :p
Thanks for the info about the bank/slip and rudder. I'll also have to adjust my forward view (thanks for that idea!).
The first time I heard the leading edge slats popping in and out, I thought I was getting shot by small arms fire.
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I don't have problems with the gunnery in AHII. I do what I've always done in the 109: Get really close, punch my spinner through his canopy and pull the trigger. Gets 'em every time! ;)
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MORE REALISM!!!! MUAHAHAHAHHAHA Love it.
KEEP IT UP HT!!!!
Can't wait until he can model a 3G turn so you feel it in your chair:)
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Originally posted by GScholz
I don't have problems with the gunnery in AHII. I do what I've always done in the 109: Get really close, punch my spinner through his canopy and pull the trigger. Gets 'em every time! ;)
Same with the 0s. Set convergence at 200 yards, get closer than that in a tight turn and shoot at his engine.
All your shots will hit between the cockpit and tail.
But it is a lot harder to hit on the turn if you are farther away. In AH1 it was easy. Now the more nimble fighters are a little better as they can out-turn the enemy's ability to lead on them....
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From my understanding, Any plane with leading edge slats on them were not very good gun platforms when in turns or when slats extended. Very unstable.
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Originally posted by Waffle BAS
From my understanding, Any plane with leading edge slats on them were not very good gun platforms when in turns or when slats extended. Very unstable.
Horse exhaust! (as AKIron put it ;))
Only at low airspeeds or very high G at medium speeds would the slats deploy in turns. Nothing unstable with it. Nearly every post-war fighter has slats like the 109 (Handley-Page). Of course nowadays they're computer controlled.
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Of course at slow speeds...lol
Hope they are not coming out at high speeds....
Still unstable in slow turns, esecially when only one deploys or they are staggered deployment depending on what ever you're trying to get your aircraft to do.
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What's "unstable" about it?
Edit: And they will come out at any speed in you pull enough G's, but at high speeds the airframe probably breaks first. At medium speeds they deploy in high G turns.
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The 109 we renowned for its stability at low speeds, the slats didnt make the plane unstable they lowered the stall speed...
Mark Hanna had this to say regarding the 109G2 he flew for 'The Old Flying Machine Cmpany', most of us know who Mark Hannah is and would regard his opinion as 'expert'. He is comparing it to the Spitfire Mk IX and the P51D after conducting mock dogfights in these fighters.
"I like the airplane, and with familiarity, I think it will give most of the Allied fighters I have flown a hard time--particularly in a close, hard-turning, low-speed dogfight. It will definitely out-maneuver a P-51 in this type of fight because the roll rate and slow-speed characteristics are much better. The Spitfire, on the other hand, is more of a problem for the 109, and I feel it is a superior close-in fighter. Having said that, the aircraft are sufficiently closely matched that pilot ability would probably be the deciding factor. At higher speeds, the P-51 is definitely superior, and provided the Mustang kept its energy up and refused to dogfight, it would be relatively safe against the 109."
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If the automatic slats deploy unevenenly - then you have 2 different "airfoils" on each wing - which would result in a lateral uneveness or quick unexpected change, resulting in control input to correct it to keep your target in sight. Then with that control input, if the slats retracts or the other deploys - then you're correcting for that adjustment. Back and forth small corrections to adjust for the "unexpected" slat deployment.
My point is about a lateral wobble, or the lack of stabilty when slats deploy unevenly.
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"I got both in a turning battle, out-turning them. We did several times 360 degrees until he became nervous, then pulled a little too much. His plane "warned", the pilot had to give way a little and I was able to get deflection. When I got to shoot at the other one, the entire left side was ripped off.
- So you did several full circles, you must have flown near stalling speed. Did you fly with "the seat of your pants" or kept eye on the dials? What was the optimum speed in such a situation, it was level flight?
It was level flight and flying by "the seat of your pants". What should I say, I should say I was doing 250kmh and the Mustang must have more than 300kmh. That is why I was able to hang on but did not get the deflection.
- And you was flying a three cannon plane?
Yes, but I did fly another one as mine was under maintenance. It was the experience that counted. Experience helped to decide when you had tried different things.
- In which altitude did these Mustang dogfights take place?
It must have been about 2000m."
- Kyösti Karhila, Finnish fighter ace. 32 victories. Source: Interview by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.
I can post an account of 109e pilot in BoB claiming he could out turn a spit 1 while slats were out...
The anecdotal evidence is overwhelming the 109 was an excellent low speed fighter...
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not arguing about the turning abilitly or the low speed stall characteristics.....
Talking about being a good gun platform and the issues relating to this in regards to uneven slat deployment and the resulting "wobble" and correction/overcorrection applied by the pilot to keep the target in sight. Which would make the uneven slat deployment a hinderance to sighting a target in slow speed turns.
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AH 109G10 MG151/20 ROF: 150 bullets in 13 seconds, 692 rpm.
AH 190A5/A8/F8/D9 MG151/20 ROF: 250 bullets in 24 seconds, 625 rpm.
Real unsynchronized MG151/20 ROF: 750 rpm.
AH 109G10 unsynchronized Mk108 ROF: 65 bullets in 6,5 seconds, 600 rpm
Real Mk108 600 rpm.
So, while Mk108 seems ok, our 151/20 is firing slower than the real one.
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Originally posted by Waffle BAS
not arguing about the turning abilitly or the low speed stall characteristics.....
Talking about being a good gun platform and the issues relating to this in regards to uneven slat deployment and the resulting "wobble" and correction/overcorrection applied by the pilot to keep the target in sight. Which would make the uneven slat deployment a hinderance to sighting a target in slow speed turns.
If it happens exactly when you're trying to make a shot then yes, that would make things a bit more difficult. I would think this was not a common occurrence though.
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The inner cannons on the 190 fire through the prop, don't they?
They'd have to be syncronized.
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No idea about the ROF of synchronized 151/20, probably it depends totally on propeller blades openning and closing some electric contact to trigger the fire of the gun.
But 109s 151/20s are all unsynchronized, and they are lacking near 60 rpm.
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The inner cannons on the 190s are synchronised with electrical priming. Not wanting to invite Murphy the outer cannons also were electrically primed (but unsynchronised). All MG151s on 109s were unsynchronised and percussion primed.
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Tested the 109F4, I got ~12 seconds for 150 rounds. Only tested it 4 times though, but all 4 times it was about 12 seconds.
So for me the RPM was 750.
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Did the same test with every 109, getting 13 secs every time. May be my stopwatch (sadly it does not count millisecs), may be yours ...
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MG 151/20 fire rate is set to 700 rpm.
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shouldnt it be 750 for 109s?
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Originally posted by fluffy
As usual - people will develop the skills to adapt to the new more realistic conditions.
- Twang
Or perhapes a different selection from the hanger? Hence a different style. I believe Game Play issues such as this usally dictate Flight Selection by and large.
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I've found if I set convergence to 300 and never fire outside of 250 I can kill pretty easy in the 109s. YMMV! :)
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Ok, here's what I've learned so far from the AH2 beta:
(1) The slats deploy unevenly and there will be some wing wobble. Its a good warning that you're about to stall. If you're not sure if your slats are deployed, just look out at your wing. Nice graphic!
(2) Turning off tracers will improve your gunnery. At least it did for me. The smoke trails were too distracting.
(3) You can raise your head farther in a 109 in AH2 than you could in AH1. I recommend you raise it to open up your forward field of vision, even if you've imported your view settings from AH1.
(4) I can't hit anything outside of d400. Get in close before you shoot. Close-in fights favor planes with guns in the nose.
(5) 2x13mm/1x20mm in a G6 will knock down a Lancaster or two, and still have enough to bat clean-up on an escorting fighter.
(6) 2x7.7/1x20mm in a 109F will knock down a Corsair with a quick burst.
Ok, that's all I've got for now.
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I have Luftwaffe and Reichlin documents for the Mg151. Both list 700 RPM for the rate of fire.
http://home.earthlink.net/~jayboyer/b-20mmTabelle4.jpg
Hooligan
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Late war 109s were apparently a handful at low speeds (takeoff - landing). I heard second hand from a 109 pilot that moved to Canada after the war. He got into the airwar late on the Eastern Front flying later model 109s (sorry - don't know which marks). He said that they lost more pilots - including his very experienced commander - in accidents during takeoff and landing. His commander was killed during takeoff. The engines became so powerful relative to the airframe weight that torque became difficult to manage. But he was very young (a teenager) when he got into it. He went on to become a successful lawyer in Ottawa after surviving the chaos in Europe.
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The T/O and landing accidents (by green pilots) had nothing to do with the 109's low speed handling, but with its ground handling.
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Regardless, I'm seeing a WHOLE lot of 109's when I'm online.
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Thanks for that document Hooligan.
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Originally posted by nopoop
Regardless, I'm seeing a WHOLE lot of 109's when I'm online.
That's just a perception problem. All those 109's are me fighting multiple bogies all over the map, and then landing the kills. :p