Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Bodhi on May 28, 2004, 12:10:46 AM
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The witness statements also include new and more detailed allegations of abuse by military intelligence soldiers, including a civilian interpreter's accusation that an Army interrogator forced a prisoner to walk naked through a cellblock.
My God, imagine if they made the prisoners kneel on an iron grate for three hours... the horrors... the horrors...
hell I think they should file another complaint with Amnesty International.
:rolleyes:
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I guess the 30 odd that have died while in detention and are under investigation were being subjected to more then walking naked through cells.
Prision abuse scandel is a disgrace no matter how much you try and play it down. It has caused a great deal of harm to US military credibility and respect in the world. At a time when things were bad enough with the invasion of Iraq and missing weapons of mass distruction.
Unfortunetly the prisoner and invasion of Iraq does nothing more then stir more anti US hatered in the Arab world and give Osama even more resources and fresh young recruits eager to join.
Starting to think that the invasion of Iraq was the best thing the US could of done for Al Queda not the other way around.
...-Gixer
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This kind of treatment is a disgrace. It should be promptly ended. Though a means of ratifying this kind of treatment could be far off, identifying key individuals could be a helpful start, as is being done now.
What the US troops are doing to the Iraqi captures is no worse than what they do to ours. Still US should show respect and try to end this kind of activity. But really, there is only so much they can do.
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When you join the U.S. military, you are supposed to stop being a scumbag. Unfortunately, the people running this prison didnt follow that rule.
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If you think you're in prison Suntracker, why don't you just quit?
Les
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Do you live in the same trailer park as the female prison guard who abused the prisoners?
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Why you wanna know?:D
Les
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You in the military?
Les
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Originally posted by Bodhi
My God, imagine if they made the prisoners kneel on an iron grate for three hours... the horrors... the horrors...
hell I think they should file another complaint with Amnesty International.
:rolleyes:
For those muslims it is one of the most embarrassing things to appear naked in "public". Its even a sin if one of the spectators is female.
Ur post shows ur lack of respect for humans and therefore it disgusting.
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Too bad, that's the way it is.
Les
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Originally posted by Bodhi
My God, imagine if they made the prisoners kneel on an iron grate for three hours... the horrors... the horrors...
hell I think they should file another complaint with Amnesty International.
:rolleyes:
They probably already had. Without AA and the Red Cross investigating these events, the abuses may never have come to light.
I'm not quite sure what your point is here. Are you saying that inhuman and degrading treatment is tolerable?
Ravs
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Originally posted by Duedel
For those muslims it is one of the most embarrassing things to appear naked in "public". Its even a sin if one of the spectators is female.
Ur post shows ur lack of respect for humans and therefore it disgusting.
wow
those that live in glass countries should not throw stones ... your countrymen have won the prize for "prisoner abuse" for all time. pls do not preach to us on proper behavior ...
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Originally posted by ravells
They probably already had. Without AA and the Red Cross investigating these events, the abuses may never have come to light.
I'm not quite sure what your point is here. Are you saying that inhuman and degrading treatment is tolerable?
Ravs
The military investigation was initiated by the reports of a soldier who saw the abuses. The military broke the story of the investigation to Congress, but they ignored it. The media pumped it up for ratings. The Red Cross had nothing at all to do with it.
No one has said the abuses were tolerable, at least no one with any intelligence.
Read in a column the other day that a British news agency was reporting that they found that the majority of Iraqis were puzzled as to why such a big issue was being made of this. Wonder why THAT report has been buried.
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Originally posted by Eagler
wow
those that live in glass countries should not throw stones ... your countrymen have won the prize for "prisoner abuse" for all time. pls do not preach to us on proper behavior ...
:D :rolleyes: ... sure Eagler ... sure
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Just heard on this news a report about one of the 507th soldiers who was captured in uniform and executed two days later by bullets to the back. Nasty business war. Above all else keep your thoughts in perspective, thats the difficult part for many.
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Hi Virgil,
From the information that I have read, organisations like Amnesty International and the Red Cross were reporting on prisoner abuse as far back as July 2003. source (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1132801/posts)
As to the tolerability of abuse, I was responding to Bodhi's initial post. I could be wrong, but he seems to be saying that parading prisoners naked or forcing them to kneel on grills for 3 hours is 'not such a bad thing' - presumably in comparison to what went on before the invasion.
I'd be interested to read the report you refer to in your last paragraph...could you find it again and post it up? Thanks in advance.
Ravs
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The column refers to the British magazine "The Economist". You'll have to look for the articles yourself as they are not directly quoted.
You say that the Red Cross reported abuses as early as mid 2003. However, the story itself did not become "news" until CBS got a hold of some photos. This was AFTER the military had begun an investigation AND informed Congress. So, no, the Red Cross did not inform everyone, and is not responsible from breaking the news. Nor is Amnesty International. The "world" was not "informed" by the efforts of either.
The real problem with this entire situation is that attempts are being made to portray the actions of a few to be the policy of the administration and the norm for entire military, and neither is in fact true. The media would have everyone believe that the incidents at Abu Graib prove that the entire military, all the way up to Rumsfeld and possibly Bush, are stooping to the level of Stalin, Hitler, and Tojo, and their minions. That is not the case.
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Thanks Virgil, the Economist is a well respected magazine. I'll have a look see through the back issues and see what I can dig up on this.
Yes, the issue only became 'news' when the pictures were published and the military were investigating before that. I wonder, though, whether those investigations were prompted (at least in part) by the fact that the Red Cross and AA were publishing reports on the abuses. I believe that it was partly or mainly those reports that forced the army to investigate.
As to whether this was something sanctioned by the administration, here's what I think (and I'm amazed this hasn't been discussed on the BBS - or if it has, I missed it).
One of the first rules of politics is 'plausible deniability' (I think that is the term). If a political leader wants to conduct an operation which will have nasty repercussions if it becomes public, he does not expressly authorise the operation. He authorises it by implication and there is invariably no record of the conversation.
For example:
Army General: 'Well sir, these prisoners may have valuable information which will save the lives of our troops'.
Policitcal Leader: 'General, the lives of our troops are of paramount importance and I mean paramount. I want you to do everything you can to get that information.'
The General then has a similar conversation with his subordinate and so on down the chain. Of course, when questioned on the subject, the people near the top of the ladder can quite legitimately say that they never authorised or knew about the torture. However, the message they give to their subordinates is clear. That is 'plausible deniability'.
It was a long time ago, and I may be mistaken about this, but I think the Oliver North / Contra affair was an example of this in American politics.
Plausible deniability is giving someone authority to do something 'wrong' but making it clear it will be them, not you, who are going to be hung out to dry if the situation becomes public.
Ravs
[edit] did a google. Good article on plausible deniability here (http://www.azcentral.com/arizonarepublic/opinions/articles/0511pimentel11.html)
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Originally posted by Gixer
I guess the 30 odd that have died while in detention and are under investigation were being subjected to more then walking naked through cells.
Prision abuse scandel is a disgrace no matter how much you try and play it down. It has caused a great deal of harm to US military credibility and respect in the world. At a time when things were bad enough with the invasion of Iraq and missing weapons of mass distruction.
Unfortunetly the prisoner and invasion of Iraq does nothing more then stir more anti US hatered in the Arab world and give Osama even more resources and fresh young recruits eager to join.
Starting to think that the invasion of Iraq was the best thing the US could of done for Al Queda not the other way around.
...-Gixer
I have to agree with that sentiment. There is no excuse for it. It is contemptible behavior and should be universally condemded. We can offer no excuse for it. What the President did was the correct thing to do. Now we must put it behind us and continue to subjugate the rest of those terrorist, and simply take no more prisoners. Nothing wrong with a thorough field interrogation prior to taking no prisoners first.
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Originally posted by ravells
Hi Virgil,
From the information that I have read, organisations like Amnesty International and the Red Cross were reporting on prisoner abuse as far back as July 2003. source (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1132801/posts)
As to the tolerability of abuse, I was responding to Bodhi's initial post. I could be wrong, but he seems to be saying that parading prisoners naked or forcing them to kneel on grills for 3 hours is 'not such a bad thing' - presumably in comparison to what went on before the invasion.
I'd be interested to read the report you refer to in your last paragraph...could you find it again and post it up? Thanks in advance.
Ravs
lol,
you are so naive, I was being sarcastic in regards to kneeling on the grate. Thats a punishment my mom reserved for myself many years ago when I was truly acting as an imbecille kid. As for the rest of you, the actions of a few are not the actions of many. Until there is difinitive proof, stop saying these orders came down from higher up.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Just heard on this news a report about one of the 507th soldiers who was captured in uniform and executed two days later by bullets to the back. Nasty business war. Above all else keep your thoughts in perspective, thats the difficult part for many.
Yeah remember our focus... seems tome that many people have forgotten this:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/514_1085756894_wtcjumper5.jpg)
God Bless their souls :( to the people who died in the WTC, and pentagon 9-11-01, your murder will not be forgotten.
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I detected the sarcasm, but wasn't sure what point you were trying to make - unless it was that parading people naked through prison blocks was small-fry stuff and not abuse at all. Perhaps that's right, but it needs to be looked at as only one action in a series of abusive actions.
For 'plausible deniability' reasons, I don't think you are ever going to find 'definite proof' that senior people in the administration knew or authorised this.
Ravs
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Originally posted by Eagler
wow
those that live in glass countries should not throw stones ... your countrymen have won the prize for "prisoner abuse" for all time....
Sorry....Germany doesn't even make the first cut...Japan holds that distinction...
If you really want to draw brass tacks, we're not in an elevated position to preach morality, either...
Maybe Iceland is, though...:)
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Originally posted by Bodhi
the actions of a few are not the actions of many. Until there is difinitive proof, stop saying these orders came down from higher up.
So, by your own admission, we should have done more to have definitive proof before sending soldiers into harm's way?:confused:
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Originally posted by Gixer
I guess the 30 odd that have died while in detention and are under investigation were being subjected to more then walking naked through cells.
Prision abuse scandel is a disgrace no matter how much you try and play it down. It has caused a great deal of harm to US military credibility and respect in the world. At a time when things were bad enough with the invasion of Iraq and missing weapons of mass distruction.
Unfortunetly the prisoner and invasion of Iraq does nothing more then stir more anti US hatered in the Arab world and give Osama even more resources and fresh young recruits eager to join.
Starting to think that the invasion of Iraq was the best thing the US could of done for Al Queda not the other way around.
...-Gixer
Why not just think of it as the Army's version of "Scared Straight" program...but we'll call it "Horrify Haji". Sure beats the Saddam method--paper shredder.;)
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Originally posted by GScholz
Yeah Bodhi! The Iraqi prisoners were responsible for 9/11, we must never forget that! Forward Christian soldiers, forward!
Well, considering the link between Sadaam and Al Quaeda, with most of these insurgents being loyal to Sadaam, yeah, I guess I can say that they are partly responsible.
Personally, I think the treatment of some of the prisoners in Iraq is deplorable, and those that did it deserve a swift and harsh punishment. What I do not agree with is the media's reaction to this considering that their only purpose of continually playing it is to help to influence an election. Hopefully the intelligent see through, because as evidenced by these boards, the idiots sure don't... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GScholz
Personally I think those justifying the mistreatment of prisoners are deplorable. Incidentally it is usually the same people justifying the war, and that are still in the mistaken belief that the war has anything to do with terrorism and 9/11.
Ok Mr.Wizard, please astonish us all with your wonderfully intuitive intellectual insight on what the war is about... :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GScholz
Personally I think those justifying the mistreatment of prisoners are deplorable. Incidentally it is usually the same people justifying the war, and that are still in the mistaken belief that the war has anything to do with terrorism and 9/11.
Ok G, I gotta ask ya. What should've been done after Afghanistan?
There is a war going on, it was declared on 9/11 (you can argue it was started well before that) but the events on that day made it known they were out to get us by any means necessary. What would've you done differently? Stand by and wait for the UN to draw up *another* resolution?
I am not defending the prisoner abuse by any means. I've said it before and I will say it again, we are there to help the helpless. That may be a little simplified but that's the way I see it.
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Originally posted by GScholz
National interests (or perhaps the interests of a few of your nationals) ... as always.
And if Kerry wins in Nov. what will you call it then?
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Sorry....Germany doesn't even make the first cut...Japan holds that distinction...
If you really want to draw brass tacks, we're not in an elevated position to preach morality, either...
Maybe Iceland is, though...:)
I think we have a ways to go .. don't see any trains hauling ppl to hideways with strange smelling smoke billowing out of their smokestacks....
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Syria or Saudi Arabia should have been done after 9/11.
This link, between Sadaam and Al Qaeda, I'd like to see real evidence it existed. I believe even our own government admitted it was fabricated just after war began.
-SW
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Originally posted by GScholz
Cut and run?
:rofl
OMG let's hope not!!
Good one G!
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Originally posted by GScholz
Cut and run?
Now thats a plan... :rolleyes:
Honestly though, you claim to have such a moral high ground yourself, what would you do right now, starting today to make things better over there...
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
And if Kerry wins in Nov. what will you call it then?
The dealings of crooks of the previous administration.
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So by your own admission, you have no idea... so, if you have no idea, why criticize others trying to do the right thing?
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Originally posted by Bodhi
So by your own admission, you have no idea... so, if you have no idea, why criticize others trying to do the right thing?
Thank you for avoiding my question...
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Originally posted by hawker238
The dealings of crooks of the previous administration.
You're confusing a (not gonna happen) Kerry win for Bush's win in '99.
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Originally posted by GScholz
Because they're not doing what's right. They're doing what's wrong (prisoner abuse).
So now you are saying that the entire Coalition is doing wrong and abusing prisoners.... instead of the 20-30 that it actually was????
You are so reaching...:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by GScholz
If Bush wins after all this, I lose my final shred of faith in the American people.
There are good American people. They just go unrepresented.
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Originally posted by GScholz
*LOL!* Who's reaching? 20-30, yeah sure. People like you are despicable.
Show me a reputable link to more than 30 people that have been charged, and I will admit I am wrong. Sadly, you are just peeved because you can not find a way to put more blame on the US... and I'm the one who is despicable? lmao :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Yeah remember our focus... seems tome that many people have forgotten this:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/514_1085756894_wtcjumper5.jpg)
God Bless their souls :( to the people who died in the WTC, and pentagon 9-11-01, your murder will not be forgotten.
You are messed up in the head. Using 9/11 in a debate of prisoner abuse? Do not use the deaths of those people to justify the deaths and torture of others.
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No Stabby, Eagler and Bodhi both use pathetic and totally pointless "arguments" to emphasize their inhuman points of view.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
The column refers to the British magazine "The Economist". You'll have to look for the articles yourself as they are not directly quoted.
You say that the Red Cross reported abuses as early as mid 2003. However, the story itself did not become "news" until CBS got a hold of some photos. This was AFTER the military had begun an investigation AND informed Congress. So, no, the Red Cross did not inform everyone, and is not responsible from breaking the news. Nor is Amnesty International. The "world" was not "informed" by the efforts of either.
The real problem with this entire situation is that attempts are being made to portray the actions of a few to be the policy of the administration and the norm for entire military, and neither is in fact true. The media would have everyone believe that the incidents at Abu Graib prove that the entire military, all the way up to Rumsfeld and possibly Bush, are stooping to the level of Stalin, Hitler, and Tojo, and their minions. That is not the case.
You're behaving far too reasonably...what are you doing here?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Personally I think those justifying the mistreatment of prisoners are deplorable. Incidentally it is usually the same people justifying the war, and that are still in the mistaken belief that the war has anything to do with terrorism and 9/11.
While I have never excused our mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, just what do you believe is the reason we went into Iraq...oil?
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Originally posted by GScholz
National interests (or perhaps the interests of a few of your nationals) ... as always.
I suppose we should have your best interest in mind?
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Originally posted by GScholz
Show me reputable link that confirms all involved have been charged. Show me anything that disputes the Red Cross' report saying "widespread abuse".
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3694521.stm
Notice that both the BBC and the Daily Mirror have already admitted that there are serious problems with the credibility of some of their sources, especially regarding abuses by British soldiers. Not that they admitted it willingly, but then they never do.
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Originally posted by Rude
While I have never excused our mistreatment of Iraqi prisoners, just what do you believe is the reason we went into Iraq...oil?
To finish his dad's war. They still have not found one link of Iraq to 9/11. Or any wmd stockpiles.
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Originally posted by GScholz
*LOL!* Who's reaching? 20-30, yeah sure. People like you are despicable.
How many were involved....I'm not sure myself.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
To finish his dad's war. They still have not found one link of Iraq to 9/11. Or any wmd stockpiles.
Given that Saddam had months to move his stockpiles of weapons, and that MIG 29 aircraft among other things have been found buried in the desert in Iraq, any weapons of mass destruction Saddam had could be in the desert in Iraq, in Syria, in Jordan, or possibly North Korea.
Regarding the fairy tale about Iraq and Saddam having no links to terrorism, and no links to the attacks of 11 September 2001, see these two links:
http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=3333
http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/murdocksaddamarticle.pdf
Funny thing is, the whole world, including the vast majority of the liberal left Democrats leading the blood curdling cries against Bush, were squalling about Saddam and the dangers he posed for years. Bush had the ba!!s to get off his prettythang and do something about it because the time had come to do it. So they cry about that now too.
But what the hell, don't let facts and the truth sway you.
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I wonder how many americans still think Iraq got something to do with 9-11
These are brainwashed i think.
Again Bush had more to do with alquida than saddam ever did.
Disrespecting human right and making photographs of it while laughin.
Now that is realy stupid what a fukups these guys are, it's unbelievable.
Now Us can't even say they freed the iraq people against human unright.
they doing it themselfes.
how stupid how ignorant
Trying to talk it down is again very very stupid.
The stupidness of it all is these guys makin photographs thanks to them more US soldiers will be killed.
I think they deserve about at least 20 years prison for it
cause its no more than a warcriminal thing.
We are a western civilized population who should set a good example.
but some fukups screw it up.
Btw that not the us army that fought for freedom like in WOII
Guys for wich i have tremendous respect
:(
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
To finish his dad's war. They still have not found one link of Iraq to 9/11. Or any wmd stockpiles.
Man...this board is full of interesting folks
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Originally posted by GScholz
Thanks for confirming my point.
Which of your points do you refer to?
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Given that Saddam had months to move his stockpiles of weapons, and that MIG 29 aircraft among other things have been found buried in the desert in Iraq, any weapons of mass destruction Saddam had could be in the desert in Iraq, in Syria, in Jordan, or possibly North Korea.
Regarding the fairy tale about Iraq and Saddam having no links to terrorism, and no links to the attacks of 11 September 2001, see these two links:
http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=3333
http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/murdocksaddamarticle.pdf
Funny thing is, the whole world, including the vast majority of the liberal left Democrats leading the blood curdling cries against Bush, were squalling about Saddam and the dangers he posed for years. Bush had the ba!!s to get off his prettythang and do something about it because the time had come to do it. So they cry about that now too.
But what the hell, don't let facts and the truth sway you.
Better let the pentagon know! because according to them saddam has no links to 9/11 and none ot al qeada! Hurry better email those Incredible credible links!!!!!!!!!!!!111111
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
Btw that not the us army that fought for freedom like in WOII
Guys for wich i have tremendous respect
:(
So Bug, ur gonna blame the actions of a few on the entire US Army? lol, that is so very much arrogance. It's about the same as saying all the Netherlands are Nazi because of a few collaborators...
As for Iraqi links to Al Quaeda.... they are very prominent. Just do a search of google.
Come on guys, just because your hatred of the US is so blind, does not mean you have to be ignorant. As for Iraqi links to Al Quaeda.... they are very prominent. Just do a search of google.
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There will never be a war like woII so respectfull to fight for.
Those few fukups don't represent the whole us army ofcourse.
Iraq is not like woII that's clear to me.
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Originally posted by Bodhi
So Bug, ur gonna blame the actions of a few on the entire US Army? lol, that is so very much arrogance. It's about the same as saying all the Netherlands are Nazi because of a few collaborators...
As for Iraqi links to Al Quaeda.... they are very prominent. Just do a search of google.
Come on guys, just because your hatred of the US is so blind, does not mean you have to be ignorant. As for Iraqi links to Al Quaeda.... they are very prominent. Just do a search of google.
You can also google links of Bush to Al Qeada and get just as many hits. Link a real news source and maybe i will be impressed.
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Those few fukups don't represent the whole us army ofcourse.
Iraq is not like woII that's clear to me. [/B][/QUOTE]
And yes the netherland had a lot of collaborators indeed i'm not proud at them.
And i'm not trying like u to talk it down.
collaborators where everywhere btw.
The jews in warschau where the worst themselfes. Can u imagine
But 70% of human kind can turn into beasts.
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I don't hate america i just critizise like i do to my own country to.
I think Balkenende our 1st minister sucks.
Now do i hate holland?....... no offcourse.
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I hate Holland.:mad:
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Ok than u must love the netherlands.
:D
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Originally posted by Bodhi
So now you are saying that the entire Coalition is doing wrong and abusing prisoners.... instead of the 20-30 that it actually was???? You are so reaching...:rolleyes:
Jesus H....
You've spewed wild and inaccurate generalizations about countless others like leaves falling off a tree. I agree it's no fun for 30 or so people to be representative of an entire population of decent-hard working and honest men and women, but you're guiltier than most for making broad assumptions based on your limited knowledge and experiences with a few people, so try to keep things in their proper perspective.
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Jesus H....
You've spewed wild and inaccurate generalizations about countless others like leaves falling off a tree. I agree it's no fun for 30 or so people to be representative of an entire population of decent-hard working and honest men and women, but you're guiltier than most for making broad assumptions based on your limited knowledge and experiences with a few people, so try to keep things in their proper perspective.
Please prove to me where I am wrong, and I will gladly accept it. Until then, quit acting like a self righteous hypocrit.
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Originally posted by GScholz
If Bush wins after all this, I lose my final shred of faith in the American people.
It's Ok G, a lot of us over here lost our faith in most Europeans a long time ago. Such is life.
*shrugs*
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Come on guys, just because your hatred of the US is so blind, does not mean you have to be ignorant. As for Iraqi links to Al Quaeda.... they are very prominent. Just do a search of google.
I want to see links between Saddam and Al Qaeda, as in they worked closely together or Saddam allowed them land and funded them.
Just because they happened to be on Iraq's soil, thats a far cry from a link.
Otherwise, there is absolutely no reason we have not gone into Syria, Iran, or Saudi Arabia yet.
-SW
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Yeah remember our focus... seems tome that many people have forgotten this:
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/514_1085756894_wtcjumper5.jpg)
God Bless their souls :( to the people who died in the WTC, and pentagon 9-11-01, your murder will not be forgotten.
Amen!
Something I saw with my own eyes. I thank god I was not as close as where this picture was taken. But I watched the towers fall first hand. I remember crying. I remember NYC being completely locked down. US fighers flying over head. Being stuck in the city so close at the time to battery park that you could smell the towers burning. I dont think I ever cried more for so many reasons than I did on that day.
The witness statements also include new and more detailed allegations of abuse by military intelligence soldiers, including a civilian interpreter's accusation that an Army interrogator forced a prisoner to walk naked through a cellblock.
This is something that occurs in nearly all prisons in teh US. (Being escorted nude for saftey reasons) And who really gives a dam. They can't hide any weapons in clothes that they do not have.
I feel no pitty nor shame. I simply do not care.
Dam the media to hell
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
I feel no pitty nor shame. I simply do not care.
You know what is ironic. The fact that you post that statement in the same post as a picture of the wtc.
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You are a complete fool to think I would feel the same pitty shame or remorse for the terroists of the world as I do for the thousands of People who died that day and for this war.
For the terroists and for anyone supporting Sadams or Bin's venues, I simply hope that they undergo the worst punishment posible.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
You are a complete fool to think I would feel the same pitty shame or remorse for the terroists of the world as I do for the thousands of People who died that day and for this war.
For the terroists and for anyone supporting Sadams or Bin's venues, I simply hope that they undergo the worst punishment posible.
You really do not get it do you?
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The only country which supported bin laden was afghanistan.
again saddam did not welcome terrorist groups.
They are to autonominous for a dictator
i repeat saddam was a dictator he didn't allow strange groups in his country.
He simply couldn't trust them.
He even killed his own generals who became to popular.
Osama would have been to popular.
This also counts for his believe again extreme religious groups couldn't be allowed in his country simply because again he couldn't trust em.
Again he was a dictator and about his believe he was definitly not a moslim.
He acted as being one his stupidness even wanted the koran written in blood.
Something wich was a big sin for a moslim but again he was a dictator.
Until right now saddam had even better control over extemists like the allied ever have now.
political it was maybe even a better choice to had left him in his chair.
like a compromis we had with stalin to control the nazi's in woII
Stalin who was a dictator also. Now would he allow religion an strange political/religious groups in his country?
No offcourse not because dictatorship means there can be only one important person . wich has a need to control everyone and everything.
It's a bad natural habit wich dictators have.
get the point??............................. ........
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There's nothing "ironic" about it, nor about what I said. Maybe through your sick and twisted skull, you would be one to find some sort of sick and twisted way of seeing irony where there is none.
Your just another scumbag troller who disrespects those that died by brining any sort of connection between those who died on that day and the slim they have locked up today.
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why is it ONLY americans seem to feel there is any connection between 9/11 and saddam?
i guess that means now that saddam is no longer...americans are safe at home? god bless
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Originally posted by GScholz
I know. I bumped into a college classmate of mine last week. She's half American and their family have been living on and off in the US and Norway. She told me that she and her parents (including the American one) now moved permanently to Norway. They will still visit their family in the US from time to time, but they no longer could stand living there. America has changed. The terrorists have won.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion, even if they're wrong *smiles*. She's still home to me and millions of others (here legally and illegally) and yet they keep coming over here for SOME reason.
(http://lordofthecows.com/images/flagphotos/american_flag.jpg)
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I'm glad i'm not brainwashed since a kid on school having to sing the dutch national song and salute the dutch flag.
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does it make u in trance that flag??
nothing wrong with being proud on what u are as long as u can respect others on being proud on what they are.
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Oh.. and there is no difference in illegal and legal migration problem in europe.
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Thank you sir.
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Just because the war on terrorism was DECLARED after 11 September 2001 does not mean that every action taken thereafter will be directed against a target directly related to the attacks of 11 September 2001. To think that would be prettythanginine.
Much like 7 December 1941 was the immediate cause for the entry of the U.S. into the war, 11 September 2001 was the immediate cause for declaring war on terrorism.
Just like the invasion of Sicily was not undertaken because Sicily had a direct link to Japan and 7 December 1941 but rather because a stated enemy of the Allies was there, the invasion of Iraq was not necessarily undertaken because Iraq had an absolute direct link to Al Queada and 11 September 2001.
War was declared on ALL terrorism after 11 September 2001, not just on Al Queada.
Still, these links should tell you why Iraq was a a target in the war on terror, and in fact likely the target that needed to go after the Taliban.
http://www.hudson.org/files/publications/murdocksaddamarticle.pdf
http://www.hudson.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=publication_details&id=3333
http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/004/152lndzv.asp
Each article shows direct links between the regime of Saddam Hussien in Iraq and known terrorists. Saddam was guilty of harboring terrorists, training terrorists, protecting terrorists, and financing terrorists. There is evidence that points to links between Saddam's regime and those who committed the attacks of 11 September 2001. Regardless of that, Saddam was guilty of being everything the free world will not tolerate.
Of course, if you don't want to read them, or believe them, that's just fine. But unless you can discredit them don't expect me to bother with you further.
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Originally posted by BUG_EAF322
I'm glad i'm not brainwashed since a kid on school having to sing the dutch national song and salute the dutch flag.
point
does it make u in trance that flag??
nothing wrong with being proud on what u are as long as u can respect others on being proud on what they are.
point
Oh.. and there is no difference in illegal and legal migration problem in europe.
You don't have to be brainwashed to love THIS country. Just ask the millions who try to get here from everywhere else in the world.
In the event that you need to be brainwashed to love your country, or sing your national anthem, well, that's your problem, not ours.
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Originally posted by GScholz
If Bush wins after all this, I lose my final shred of faith in the American people.
Good. will you also stop posting anti American dribble as well?
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Originally posted by storch
Good. will you also stop posting anti American dribble as well?
No, it is an obsessive compulsive thing for most of them.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Of course, if you don't want to read them, or believe them, that's just fine. But unless you can discredit them don't expect me to bother with you further.
Interesting. So if these are the "facts" how come the Bush admin has not been trumpeting them on every street corner and news broadcast tied to the effort for re-election? Could it be that they are not true or too tenuous even for them?
...and before you say it, the press ain't *that* liberal...
h
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Nice news sources there. A step above the globe.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
There's nothing "ironic" about it, nor about what I said. Maybe through your sick and twisted skull, you would be one to find some sort of sick and twisted way of seeing irony where there is none.
Your just another scumbag troller who disrespects those that died by brining any sort of connection between those who died on that day and the slim they have locked up today.
When you stoop to their level you become no better then they are. There is plenty of irony in the fact that you do not respect human life yet cry about 9/11.
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Originally posted by Horn
Interesting. So if these are the "facts" how come the Bush admin has not been trumpeting them on every street corner and news broadcast tied to the effort for re-election? Could it be that they are not true or too tenuous even for them?
...and before you say it, the press ain't *that* liberal...
h
the press is so liberal, it is unreal... they surpress any news that is not inline with their owners political agenda. THat said, everyonce in a while, it is necessary for them to print the "truth" but thats few and far between.
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
When you stoop to their level you become no better then they are. There is plenty of irony in the fact that you do not respect human life yet cry about 9/11.
There is a problem with the perception of the line between right and wrong. When looked at from a certain perspective the bombing of civilian population centers in the Rhine valley was abhorrent, although through the prism of war, it seems less so.
I believe the torture of an innocent to be reprehensible, however if I had a suspected terrorist and needed to get the dirty bomb disarming instructions from him in order to save thousands, I think I could be capable of things I would be otherwise ashamed of doing.
If one has to disrespect one or a few lives so that one can respect the lives of thousands who is willing to make the choice of the sacrifice of many to remain irony free?
While I believe that the prison guards were not faced with this ultimate decision, did the guards believe that their military 'family' was in jeapordy? I take pause when I think of what I would be capable of with my family in danger. I would compromise my principles in a heartbeat to save my family. I believe that does not make me a hypocrite, it makes me a realist.
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the fact he was paying pal bombers for their "service" makes him a terrorist and a legit target in our war on terroism
as soon as the rest of the sand sucking hate filled scum "freedom fighters" are dead or flee the area, you will see the birth of a new ME, one the UN and the e-ropes are sure to take credit for ... LOL
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Originally posted by hawker238
There are good American people. They just go unrepresented.
The MAN keeps em down!!!
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Originally posted by GScholz
I see. Will that be before or after you teach pigs the noble art of aviation?
Live on in your world of hate GScholz... live on...
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Originally posted by GScholz
I see. Will that be before or after you teach pigs the noble art of aviation?
us? I thought you guys already knew how to fly! ok I'm willing to help my whimsical euro cousins.......again. find a very high place. leap confidently out. flap your arms in a birdlike fashion. take video. have someone post it tomorrow.
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storch, you are too much! LMFAO... :aok
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Originally posted by Bodhi
storch, you are too much! LMFAO... :aok
I offer my sincere and heartfelt apologies, I promise to no longer offend innocent members pig species in this manner. hopefully you will see your way clear to graciously accepting my contrite apology.
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The stupidity is cringing.
Ravs
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Originally posted by StabbyTheIcePic
When you stoop to their level you become no better then they are. There is plenty of irony in the fact that you do not respect human life yet cry about 9/11.
Why should I respect a man who cuts the heads off of a fellow american? Or anyones head off for that matter? Why should I begin to care for how he feels when I point a gun at his face and tell him I will blow the back of his skull off IF he does not give us detailed information that he holds on a strike that is going to be held against American troops the next day?
Why should I care about a people whom their only goal in life is to inflict plain and terror among the world?
Why should I care about him and how he feels if he would much rather take a knife and pull my guts out and drag me down a main street.
This is the scum of the earth here people. These people who some of you are standing up for want to see you die. They dont care about you, and your rights. You have no rights in their presents. Those whom have stood up for these scumbags are clueless. Bah, this world is going to chit. This world and most of all the scum sucking low life terrorists are lucky I am not in charge.
I like bush. I voted for bush. I would vote for him again in a heart beat. But I think its time he grew bigger balls and laid down the law a whole lot harder for this a-holes over there.
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Morpheus
how do you define 'scum of the earth'?
Yes..the arabs do a few occasional nasty deaths, but America's pollution outlay and idea that the entire planet owes them a living is going to do for us all.
America is the new colonialist...economically. We are all going to die a death of consumption.
Ravs
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Yes..the arabs do a few occasional nasty deaths, but America's pollution outlay and idea that the entire planet owes them a living is going to do for us all.
It is due to this statement that I will refuse to answer your question.
Putting the US at or near the same lvl of the terrorists of the world is the most rediculous thing I have heard in a while.
An insult really. And I am trying like hell to here to say as little as posible because the "American" in me knows that I should stand up for her, for my Country. But here, on the BB, with you, its just not worth it.
Who said anything about America being "owed" a living? Thats rediculous. From where you stand, I guess its easy to hate us. Or if not hate us then just plain old disagree with our goals, our standards of living and our ways of life. IMHO its just too bad that you think that way.
Look, the world is a very imperfect place. But killing off a few of the no good people in the world is a great idea in my opinion. The ones who think nothing of death, and how no human life is worth a dam.
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Originally posted by MoRphEuS
. The ones who think nothing of death, and how no human life is worth a dam.
Like yourself?
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I don't hate you. I don't hate anybody.
I just think you're a little deluded about your sense of priorities.
ravs
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Again MrStaby
You fail to see the difference of the kinds of people we are talking about here.
The kinds who flew planes into my towers, the kinds who hold automatic weapons in the face of my friends, soliders, the ones who are fighting for freedom. Those people, who aren't even people they are things, scum, waste of the earths minerals, those are the ones whom should pay the price for what they have done. And their lives, sadly, aren't worth squat for what they've done. But knowing they are dead, not breathing the same air as I, will help me to sleep a little better at night.
You are a very distrubed individual to try and put the lives of terrorists and the lives of inocent americans or any other inocent person in the world, on the same level. Its sick and it what you are saying and trying to convey here is no better than pissing on the graves of those who have died as a result of these animals actions.
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GO LAKERS!
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I admire your sense of patriotism, Morpheus
but your thinking is a little simplistic.
Ravs
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The simple fact that we are taking this scum we are fighting for more than what they are, and not just scum of the earth killers, is the reason there are so many political problems and just really plain old problems in the world.
Face it, the world would be a better place if these animals killing inocent people were dead them selves. That is what bush is trying to do right now. I just think he needs to step into the ball a bit, so to speak.
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Why make things more complicated then they really are?
You kill the inocent and inreturn you die.
Wow thats easy.