Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Zanth on May 28, 2004, 08:35:47 AM
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As players are getting more accustomed to the flight model, they are learning how to use it.
Example:
Dive on the long 6 of a spit, you notice to yourself how odd he hasn't turned to avoid yet. You know it's one of two things, either he is AFK or you are about to see something you never read about in Shaws. Sure enough just as he gets in gun range the spit goes into violent rapid and random gyrations. In the space of time it takes to say "floppy fish, floppy fish" you have passed the spit and he has his nose back pointed on you like nothing happened.
Seeing this more and more, anyone else?
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It is not just Spits Zanth but yes. About 50% of the time I made high speed attacks last night I saw just that. You have to wait SO long for a good firing distance that it only takes a second for them to avoid the shot and hose you down as you overshoot. This is particularly true with very high closure rates and dead-6 attacks. I had better luck with low6 or high6 attacks though. At least when he "flopped" and forced me to miss I was not in his firing cone. The amazing part to me is how little E they seem to have burned with the flop. I saw this technique with many enemies even a P47.
BTW...ManeTMP, that was some NICE Jug flying last night !
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I've seen it more in AH2 than I did in AH1, but most of the time I think its the guy in a high-speed stall from over-working his controls.
Best way to avoid this is to avoid packing so much smack that you can't control your maneuvers. I chop throttle, kick full rudder, go nose-high and/or into a lag pursuit. The longer he flops, the less alt and energy he'll have when he comes out of it. And when he does, I'm above him storing my energy.
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The ones i saw were not really a stall, and i think that is what Zanth means too. They may be a little micro-stall but it is less than a second and they are back into a controlled envelope and firing at you. You are right of course about how to avoid the overshoot but out of respect for the capabilities of the Spit9 I seldom chop throttle and try to stick with him. the new gunnery model is making me hold fire until well within 400 on a moderate closure setup, if I am closing fast I'll fire when the icon turns to 400. The instant it goes from 600 to 400 does that mean I am 500?
One other thing which makes this harder for the attacker is the new icon range deal we have. Unless it is a long attack you may have trouble judgiing the closure rates now. I was closing fast on a Mustang last night, preparing to fire at about 400. All of a sudden I had a windscreen full of Pony! I killed him but grossly misjudged how slow he was or how fast I was and almost rammed him.
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I have seen this FLOPPY FISH thing a lot and mostly with the fish flying a P-47
I thought it was some kind of HACK.
I fly the FW-190D-9 most of the time and when I zoom in on a P-47 he pulls this crap and I zoom up in a right spiral climb and after this move the 47 is still able to nose up and kill me.
I just shrug it off as a game GLITCH that the 47 drivers learned and go and get another plane. It always made me mad though as I felt it was not a realistic flight maneuver but a game maneuver.
-I am glad that somone is talking about it and maybe HT can look into why a 47 that weighs 2 tons can stall and recover and then have speed and E left to fly up.
kcDITTO
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I've noticed it with every plane type in AH2. For awhile I attributed it to lag in the beta arena, now I think it's the new flight model too.
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Originally posted by Zanth
As players are getting more accustomed to the flight model, they are learning how to use it.
Example:
Dive on the long 6 of a spit, you notice to yourself how odd he hasn't turned to avoid yet. You know it's one of two things, either he is AFK or you are about to see something you never read about in Shaws. Sure enough just as he gets in gun range the spit goes into violent rapid and random gyrations. In the space of time it takes to say "floppy fish, floppy fish" you have passed the spit and he has his nose back pointed on you like nothing happened.
Seeing this more and more, anyone else?
i see that all the time in AHI... maybe its my UK ping vs US vs JAP ping? who knows......
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I have noticed that sometimes i can make my plane (only done it in LA5fn) spin about its roll axis insanely fast. you know how planes spin crazily after losing a wing, its almost like that, but i have no trouble at all recovering. just center the stick and unload any G's and all is well. seems to happen when i apply full left roll, full left rudder, and apply positive G's with the elevators. anyone able to duplicate this? I don't think a real aircraft would behave this way......but what do i know. Will try again when i get home from work and see if i can make it happen again.
btw its seriously like 3 or 4 times the normal roll rate of the La5. and its not the spin or stall that comes from yanking too hard on the stick.
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...In an La7.
I can force a high-speed stall/intial stages of a spin in order to evade someone saddling up on my six. The recovery takes between 10 and 15 secons but I found it forced an overshoot very nicely. It is weird. I'll see if I can get some film of it this weekend.
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Echo, thats called a snap roll.
HiTech
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ah so i'm not "gaming the game" when i use it when someone's on my six. in that case i'll have at it......as it seems to work well as a defensive manuever.
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Hitech,
I would agree with Zanth. I have been on AH2 exclusively for a while and I have seen many players go floppy fish in some very uncordinated maneuvers that have no ACM value at all.
It is a very subjective thing but I have noticed it quite a bit more than usual lately.
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I dont even like to waste ammo when I see someone do that... be it on purpose or by accident. A 190 flopped 'so bad' that it seemed to bounce around my gunsight - had I even opened fire, it probably nothign would have connected. It appeared the G forces on your opponent should be incredibly large the way it violently flopped about. Its almost impossible to follow such a maneuver at the same speed as your opponent unless you also cause a weird stall (with no ACM value as F4U pointed out)
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I've accidentally pulled snap rolls when startled by the appearance of a deadly threat on my 6. Very embarrassing - but Robert Stanford Tuck used to execute these things on purpose in Spitfires when stunting, so the behaviour is realistic. I suspect that most of the ones seen in the AH2 beta are accidental.
The 'wobbling' of wings is VERY cool in an energy fight. I had a good one the other day - low down, me in a p47 versus a Ta152 - as we got slower and closer together I could SEE he was on the edge of stalling as his long wings would wobble after a manouver, and sure enough he eventually fell into the ground. I was out of ammo and ran out of gas when I was above him, so I bluffed with a dive right at him and he stalled out evading. So I was able to use the visual cues which AH2 now gives you, to make a tactical decision during a dogfight. I don't recall seeing anything quite like that anywhere but AH2. I was so dazzled by the experience that I died trying to bellyland my p47, so it was a pyrrhic victory. :lol This sim just gets better and better.
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Originally posted by Echo
ah so i'm not "gaming the game" when i use it when someone's on my six. in that case i'll have at it......as it seems to work well as a defensive manuever.
Absolutely not! Its an excellent manuver and doesnt work very well in AH1. It looks as if it will be a more effective defensive manuver in AH2.
wtg
MugZ
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the flopy-fish manuver is the trade mark of 190s in AHI.
In AHII I think it works better due to the more difficult gunnery. Sometimes this move is not intendend since the player, not accustomed to the new FM, gets into a snap roll and trying to recover.
the floppy-fish is useless if the closure rate is slow. yes, pilots have to match, or at least be close to their target's speed to be effective, that's how it's supposed to be done. With the new icon system it's a bit tricky.
I am glad that somone is talking about it and maybe HT can look into why a 47 that weighs 2 tons can stall and recover and then have speed and E left to fly up.
The jug is an extremely stable plane, just because it's so fat. it's also very responsive even at slow speeds and has a gentle stall. Maybe the ONLY real advantage of the jug in a knife fight is it's ability to convert all it's speed to a one sharp turn/pull. but if that doesn't work, it's just left floating there big fat slow and helpless.
Bozon
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AH2 is much smoother when flying close to another ac in formation or in tight rolling scissors.
'floppy fish' was when someone would abuse lag to ruin a shot.
Now I c 'Jinking'. Which is in Shaw's book btw.
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Best thing about the "floppy fish" is to watch them twist and tumble to the earth after not being able to recover their little "Snap Roll". Has anyone seen this "stunt" pulled on the deck? Its one of those, "Your mine now.....what in the......I overshot!!" CRASH *proxy kill awarded* :rofl
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The "fish" was a perfectly valid evasive manuever in WWII. Of course they called it "juking". There are many stories from WWII pilots who survived to tell the tale by employing this tactic.
I think it's more obvious in AHII becuase the planes seem to be a little "looser" i.e. have some inertia, you can point the nose a good bit off of your actual vector. A good realistic feeling I might add. Using elevator or rudder you can probably point your nose 20ish degrees off your actual flight vector and by oscillating you get maybe 40 degrees (20 both ways) of "flop" while your plane maintains a relatively constant path.
Of course lag and path prediction excaberate the problem, but I don't think much improvement can be made over HTC's current solution.
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I probably was in some of those FWs. It is a combination of trying to practice WildThing's reversal technique with the huge roll rate of the FW. When the reversal technique was executed improperly (snap roll instead of barrel roll), you probably saw the phenomenon described by some of the posts above. Of course, once controls are damaged, then the uncontrolled rolling is more likely as well.
It works better in a maneuverable plane like the spit, but I am trying to get away from spits. At least the FW pilot can always ensure his roll is ahead of the opponent's. It think it's good for the game when each type of plane has certain maneuvers it can use to be effective in a fite.
Remember, in general, overshooting an opponent is bad, both in the game and in real life.
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On the p47 energy issue alluded to above, please leave the poor p47 alone. About the only thing it can do is retain energy via inertia, presumably due to its great mass.
Wish the p47 could roll better, as is implied in the book "Thunderbolt". Doesn't seem to roll too well in AH.
(A bit tangential to the topic, I admit).
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Being or not a valid maneouvre, what I see is the nose of the enemy plane pointing right and then left and so on, without intermediate positions. The movement is too fast and the visual effect is impossible instantaneous changes of heading.
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Godo, can you film this?
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When in trouble i use a shoulder roll. Im not sure if this is what your seeing but my inputs are deliberate controll moves. No fast stick moves here. Works very well.
Kalamori
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No!!!!
I use the snap roll and I agree --- it is effective -- the FW will roll best to the left and will corkscrew making the shot hard but not impossible..
What I have seen is a plane STOP flop around like a dying fish and fall a few hundred feet and as you pull up to avoid catching whatever it is has affected this enemy plane the bogey regains his speed and puts a load of lead in your tail section.
NOt sure if we all are talking on the same subject????
kcDitto
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Originally posted by TDeacon
Godo, can you film this?
AFAIK, AH2 has no film viewer.
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KCDitto, how do you know it "stopped"? Remember we don't have a fixed reference point, but a moving one (our plane). What you may have seen was a large, sudden, change in relative speed. Many people will try to force an overshoot by various types of sudden violent rolling, combined with chopping throttle or cutting engine. If this is done to extreme, you might see a "stop" with a drop in alt. If an overshoot then develops the target would restart engine and go to WEP.
Godo, I will film a FW doing what I am talking about (in AH1), and if it looks similar to your description, will post the link. I am not saying this is good flying, btw, just my attempt to learn how to force an overshoot; I have a ways to go...
Is this it? https://home.comcast.net/~mark.hinds/misc_online_storage_dir/fw_flop_1.ahf