Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Crumpp on May 28, 2004, 12:19:06 PM
-
I have always wondered how a Pilot that is either on the verge of unconsciousness or blacked out can continue to pull the stick in a turn?
Films I have seen of pilots blacking out. They relax and it's nighty night. They do not continue to fly the plane.
I think that even on the verge, the "grey zone", a pilot becomes physically weaker as the muscles go into Oxygen deprivation and will begin to relax more and more the closer to unconsciousness.
From my experience I passed out breath hold diving. My "shallow water blackout" occurred just as my head broke the surface. I could see and was fully aware that I was being "rescued" by the safety swimmers BUT I had no muscle control. I simply convulsed for a few minutes til Oxygen returned to my muscles.
Pilots can build a tolerance somewhat and flex the muscles of the lower body in an attempt to keep blood in the upper body. It would be cool IMO if AH2 modeled a pilots physiology in blackouts/redouts. Maybe we could even spend some "perk points" on improving your pilots tolerance to G's at least for a little while.
Crumpp
-
Crumpp...speaking from personal knowledge of this very subject...the modeling is quite accurate. You will experience Grey out/Tunnel vision and as soon as you release the stick (release the g's on the acft) you will resume normal vision...well pretty close...everyone differs but for the most part it comes back like is designed here. Physical conditioning helps your response to this ...aka recovery.
Once you hit the "funky chicken mode" you are pretty much toast...It can take a long time to recover from this. Do a search for GLOC...g iduced loss of consciousness....it will get you some good stuff.
That "funky chicken mode" is not modeled in here. The reason I believe is because people differ...its a game....there has to be a pt at which you draw the line. As far as Im concerned its good as it is.
Pilots can and do ride the "edge" of the tunnel....it is a fact...modelled well here.
Good thoughts.....take care:)
-
One aspect of physiology that is not modeled is the gradual lowering of a pilots ability to sustain Gs after being exposed to them. I mean, lets say the 1st time you pull a high load to the edge of blackout it takes you a factor of "10" to reach that point. Well, 60 seconds later it will only take you a "9" (or 9.9 or 9.5 whatever). Each time you do it your tolerance for such action will decrease. Theoretically you could after a long hard T&B session have almost no tolerance left. It has been documented that sustained G forces will blur vision and decrease thought processes. All short term effects but real nonetheless.
Could we not model a cumulative G meter that could be reset whenever the pilot replanes? This would hurt me in the MA since I re-arm often and have flown 2+ hour sorties before, but I think it would add some more realism to the game.
-
the funky chicken is modeld guttboy.
There are 2 modes of "Black out" modeled.
1. Where you don't see.
2. Where you are doing the funcky chicken.
Fatigue will build everytime you are fully blacked out "cant see".
Once a threshhold is reached you will be made uncionsious, the stick is automaticly released,the screen will still be black, and your current flight path is in a stick nutetral path.
HiTech
-
No more hitting "X" to save me?
-
Originally posted by GScholz
No more hitting "X" to save me?
Using the AP works in situation #1 (above) but not in #2.
-
It is modeled?
I tried an experiment. I dove from 9000 feet when my airspeed exceeded 550 mph I pulled hard on the stick. I blacked out about 15 degrees below the horizon. I continued to pull back on the stick. When I released it and the screen went from totally black to being clear in less than a second. My AC nose was pointed about 75 degrees above the Horizon. In other words for 3/4 of a turn while completely blacked out my pilot was flying the plane. This is unrealistic.
Yes pilots ride the Grey line. The longer you ride it and the closer you get to everything turning black the weaker your pilot should become and more he will relax pressure on the stick.
You recover from the "funky chicken" fairly quickly. In my military dive training I have passed out completely several times. Standard time alotted a guy to recover from unconsciousness is 2 minutes. Then it's back in the pool and back to work.
Crumpp
-
NO! HTC DONT LISTEN TO THEM NO MORE SIM CRAP!!!!!!!!! I WILL QUIT IF THIS WENT INTO AFFECT! LOL
-
In HT's explination he said multiple black outs will get to that thresold that will get you to the funky chicken mode. My guess is that the first few times you black out are the lee-way HT gives everyone as we are all in such good shape.... hhhmmmm will maybe not all of us :)
Try your test again, but I'll bet that the second time or third time you do it on that one flight, you'll be doing the funky chicken and will have no idea where you'll be pointing.
-
Also has to do with how long, Start at 20k once go into a nose low black out turn once.
Also nothing has changed. It has always been this way in AHI
HiTech
-
That's my point. When things go black NOBODY has the presence of mind to continue meaningful action. MUCH less continue to hold pressure on an AC and think in three dimensions.
The tolerance to G's lowering means the effect should be more pronounced and onset earlier the more times you experience G's in a relatively short period of time.
Right now the effect of G's is almost non-existent.
It's an idea for AH2 Tour of Duty. Not only could you spend you perk points for "better" planes but for a "better" pilot. I also think it would add to Combat. Some A/C were better at allowing a pilot to pull more G's due to their design. These planes would have that advantage in the game as well. Wouldn't be hard to figure out. The planes with the closest to supine position for their pilots will be the most resistant to G's.
A pilot has to ride the EDGE, not the end, of the Grey Line. Much more realistic AND fun IMO.
Crumpp
-
I really appreciate your replying Hitech. In AH1 the effect was not pronounced enough IMO. Just as real pilots have to consider the Physiological effects of a maneuver sim pilots should have similar limitations.
Crumpp
-
Crumpp, when pulling G's you will lose vision before losing consciousness. You can't see anything, but you can still hear and have full control of your body. You do not immediately lose consciousness because the eyes need more oxygen than the brain to function so vision goes first. It is dangerous however since you no longer have any warning before GLOC.
-
HiTech,
Thanks a bunch....I guess its me because I have never had funky chicken mode. Always ride the line. I dont think I have seen pilots go into funky chicken mode but perhaps they fly as I do....
For those uninformed...you CAN black out without seeing a thing..yet still hear and be fully functional while flying the plane. It is when you pass this point...and it can be a fine line...when the GLOC occurs.
Thanks again Hitech and others for bringing this up...learn something new every day!
Regards:)
-
OOPS....Gsholz....I had my computer running and did not see your post...LOL......
YEAH...what Gsholz says....lol...
-
I understand that GScholtz. Yes you will lose vision. There is not that much lag time nor is that lag time of any real value. It's not like you lose vision and can still function. Remember it takes O2 to work your muscles. The more O2 deprived they are the weaker they become until they no longer function as a unit (spasm). Your brain is the biggest O2 user in your body. Your vision goes your body is in the hurt locker already. Your other systems are not functioning properly and severly degraded at the least.
However, some people might think they can still function. I've seen guys in the chamber convulsing and when they regain their faculties claim they were reaching for the "green apple" get O2 and were completely in control. Only when they see the films do they believe the instructors. In their minds they where fully functional but the reality was very different. The whole point of taking guys to that limit is so they can dispell the myth they will be able to "stave it off" and can identify their particular symptoms. I immediately regained conscieness each time I've passed out. Being consciencous and having control are two different things. I was very aware of what was going on around me. I just couldn't figure out why my body wouldn't respond. In less than 2 minutes you will recover completely.
There are many symptoms of hypoxia (GLOC). Some people are effected by some of the symptoms more than others. EVERYONE is effected though when the machine runs out of O2 enough to lose vision. Some folks get the other symptoms as a warning. Some recieve no warning at all, the lights just go out. I feel really euphoric for a split second. Then the TV shuts off, just like in AH, til I have nothing but a small white dot center sceen that fades to black. Hitech definately got part right, at least for me. Once that TV gets about 3/4 of the way shut off, it's all over but the crying.
Good fighter pilots will ride that Grey line but closer they get to total blackness the greater their body is effected. If the screen goes all black your not flying that plane anymore, it is flying you.
Crumpp
-
Yes you can lose vision and still function. It is not like your whole body is losing its supply of oxygenated blood, your arms and legs will work perfectly. It's just that the heart is having problems pumping blood up to your head because of the increased gravity. And while the brain is the biggest consumer of oxygen, the eyes are more quickly affected by lack of oxygen. In a perfectly relaxed state it is possible to pull just enough Gs to lose vision, but never lose consciousness.
-
We have an Air Force Physiologist assigned to my unit and their is an AFB less than 15 minutes from my house. I'll swing into the F16 squadron and ask thier flight med this week. I bet you can go a long time with the tunnel vision "grey out" but as soon as your entire vision goes black your ability to function goes too.
Crumpp
-
Originally posted by GScholz
In a perfectly relaxed state it is possible to pull just enough Gs to lose vision, but never lose consciousness.
I'm sure a real WWII pilot fighting for his life over enemy territory with an ace on his 6, pulling enough Gs to black out ... was perfectly relaxed. ;)
-
Crumpp,
Not to be technical but there are many types of Hypoxia....GLOC....can fall under that category. (So folks that dont fly or know what we are speaking of dont get too confused.)
You can function when you cant see. Bottom line. Period dot. (I am referring to a GLOC blackout scenario...NOT a hyperbaric scenario).
If you are saying that you cant then you are very mistaken.
Now...does it take a toll on you YES! Anyone who says it doesnt is kidding themselves.
If you are referring to the altitude chamber there is a significant difference between g induced blackouts and blackouts due to pure lack of O2.
When I "ride" the chamber you do the two step profile where you go up...do the symptoms then take you to the "rapid D" arena. Works good...But here is where the disconnect between GLOC and blackout from lack of O2 in the chamber works.
In the chamber your blood supply has less O2 in it to work with due to the lower partial pressures of O2 at higher altitudes. This does NOT go back into the bloodstream in a rapid fashion...it takes time to be brought in to the lungs then travel the body.
In a GLOC situation, however, the blood may be perfectly saturated with O2. The problem in this case is that the blood, fully oxygenated, cant make it to the brain. It is still oxygenated but just cant make it there. (hence use of straining maneuvers/g suits to keep blood up!).
When the onset of g's occurs...the blood tends to pool in the lower extremeties..hence the strain/suit. If you "ride the tunnel" you are still recieving blood/O2 to the brain just in a diminshed capacity. If you continue...one of the first things to go is your vision. You are still functional and you can still maneuver...what you have to do is release the g's and then the heart/strain/suit can get the blood back to the brain. THIS IS FULLY OXYGENATED! Voila' back to normal...well still strained but enough to fly.
In a hypoxic situation due to low oxygen levels in the blood....hyperbaric chamber ride example...it takes time for that blood to be fully oxygenated and circulated.
So Crumpp....there is a difference between the two instances of blacking out. Same underlying principles (lack of O2 to the brain) however the mechanism is different and that is why you see a difference in response times to becoming "lucid" so to speak.\
Regards...:)
-
Crumpp,
What base are you living near...I live in Albuquerque and am stationed at Kirtland AFB. Been stationed at Hurlburt Field FL and Kadena AB Okinawa as well.
Regards...:)
-
I'm Army not AF. I was stationed at Torii on Oki and lived on Kadena though. Great place.
I'm next to Pope now.
I agree that the mechanism for how the hypoxia is induced to the tissues is different in GLOC. However the end result is the same. You lose vision I bet you will lose control. Your tissues are hypoxic enough to no longer function properly, hence you lose vision.
One point that I do agree on. Your recovery would be quicker from GLOC due to the O2 saturated blood already in your system.
Crumpp
-
Ok,
Here is some links and the facts on this subject:
Yes you can "blackout" without losing consciousness. However you might as well be unconscious because your useful actions are very limited. Your period of unconsciousness (medical) is very short but the disorientation last up to three minutes (average is like 37 seconds). It takes a few seconds according to our Doc to recover from the disorientation of a "blackout" too.
Depending on the type of G's experienced and how they Onset determines the length of time between grey zone and actual blackout. From what I understand a pilot does not actually stay in the "grey zone" but rather hits it and backs off, then hits it again. Even in the grey zone your are not very useful as a thinking man.
GLOC is even more disorienting than normal Hypoxia. One of the big factors is there are a number of "illusions" that occur in the grey zone and above. This is due to the fluid pooling in the Semi-circular canals throwing off the brain's reference to up and down. Pilots can no longer see or interpet the insturments and enters one of several fatal scenarios.
Remember in this data the pilots had modern G-suits, AGSP, and Combat Edge kits. All are designed to push a pilots G tolerance. In 1939 many AF's believed the age of dogfighting was over. Pilots could not stand the G forces required in a "Modern, low-wing, metal skin fighter".
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simo Siitonen, M.D.
+ Gz-forces in F-18 Hornet
In operational use F-18 Hornet has G-onset rate up to + 9 Gz. Contrary to previous high-performance aircraft of Finnish Air Force (FAF) Hornet can also maintain that Gz level for some time. This will result to physiological problems in form of circulation disturbance. Blood will be packed in lower body and eye-level blood pressure drops dramatically. After 5 seconds grey out occurs and if Gz load remains black out will appear shortly after grey out. A pilot loses his/her consciousness if Gz load is not rapidly decreased. Gz-force induced loss of consciousness (G-LOC) is the deadliest enemy of a fighter pilot if we think military flying from the aerospace physiology aspect.
Eye-level blood pressure drops 22 mmHg for every Gz. Normally eye-level blood pressure is about 100 mmHg, but during + 4 Gz exposure eye-level blood pressure has dropped to 12 mmHg, if a pilot is not using any G-protection. Without G-protection average pilot can handle + 4 Gz force without problems.
During WW II G-suit was introduced to better pilots G-tolerance. Together with L1/M1 counter maneuvers (muscle contractions and intrathoracic pressure increasement) G-suit will increase G-tolerance to + 8 Gz for short time. After + 2 Gz in modern fighters G-suit pressure will increase 8.6-10 kPa for every G, but maximum pressure is 69 kPa. Full cover G-suit (ML Lifeguard) of Finnish F-18 Hornet has 45 % larger air bladders than previously used G-suits of FAF. This means that G-tolerance has increased from + 1.5 Gz (old G-suit) to + 3 Gz (full cover G-suit) because of G-suit.
Pilots use G-suits because: 1) G-suit increases blood vessel resistance in lower body leading to increased blood pressure, 2) G-suit induced intra-abdominal pressure elevates heart 3 cm and shortens heart-brain distance and 3) venous blood is not situated in lower body and heart has enough venous blood in use to pump it to brain.
Pentti Kuronen, M.D. (Chief Flight Surgeon of FAF) led an evaluation team which selected pressure breathing system (ML Lifeguard) for F-18 Hornet of FAF. Also pressure vest, regulator and on-board oxygen generation system (OBOGS) were included in this system. Increased intra-thoracic pressure made by pressure breathing system increases G-tolerance about + 2 Gz. This way also risk of G-LOC decreases significantly.
Why fighter pilots and flight surgeons want to avoid G-LOC ? During G-LOC absolute incapacitation lasts 12 to 20 seconds but relative incapacitation can take more than 3 minutes. During those minutes anything can happen ! In US Air Force 12 % of the fighter pilots had experienced G-LOC. The same rate in US Navy was 14 %. Based on centrifuge experiences flight surgeons know that 50 % of G-LOC pilots do not remember their G-LOC experience. This means that one fourth of fighter pilots in USA have been on the edge at least once during their career.
Modern technology together with understanding of aerospace physiology has give fighter pilots tools to fight not only against the enemy, but also against themselves in high Gz environment.
Modified by Tuomo Leino, M.D.
Research on the degree of incapacitation caused by GLOC has indicated that there is an average total incapacitation (unconsciousness) time of 15 seconds followed by a period of relative incapacitation (confusion and disorientation) of 12 to 15 seconds, resulting in a total time of incapacitation of between 24 and 37 seconds (14). Research is now focusing on ways to both prevent the GLOC episode and to shorten the periods of incapacitation.
http://www.sci.fi/~fta/physiolo.htm
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one is extremely technical. You need hard data HiTech, well here it is...
http://wwwsam.brooks.af.mil/af/files/fsguide/HTML/Chapter_04.html
Research on the degree of incapacitation caused by GLOC has indicated that there is an average total incapacitation (unconsciousness) time of 15 seconds followed by a period of relative incapacitation (confusion and disorientation) of 12 to 15 seconds, resulting in a total time of incapacitation of between 24 and 37 seconds (14). Research is now focusing on ways to both prevent the GLOC episode and to shorten the periods of incapacitation.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bottom Line - You can ride the grey but if you hit the black bad things start to happen. Since Hitech can't reach through the screen and shake you into disorientation then the relaxation of the controls for a second or two is a good way to "sim" pilot disorientation, Or better yet IMO, the "wounded pilot" head movement along with a short period of control dampening.
Crumpp
-
Depending on the type of G's experienced and how they Onset determines the length of time between grey zone and actual blackout. From what I understand a pilot does not actually stay in the "grey zone" but rather hits it and backs off, then hits it again. Even in the grey zone your are not very useful as a thinking man.
Crumpp,
Exactly....Onset is the big key....look at it this way....if you were flying and riding the "grey zone" for say 15 minutes (pretty ridiculous) in a constant 5g environ you would be an utter mess for the most part.
Instantaneous onset to the same point would have less of an effect on your body.
What does occur is like I mentioned before...you can and do ride that edge.
If you do lose sight altogether (although not wise and for only fractions of a second) you must back off....you still are in control of your acft and thus back off....if you do not then thats another story.
Yes you can "blackout" without losing consciousness. However you might as well be unconscious because your useful actions are very limited. Your period of unconsciousness (medical) is very short but the disorientation last up to three minutes (average is like 37 seconds). It takes a few seconds according to our Doc to recover from the disorientation of a "blackout" too.
Crumpp...I agree with what your doc is saying, however, disorientation can last up to 3 min. It can...It does not always however and it is an individual thing.
This is NOT something that I would advocate (Blacking out) Crumpp....I am not stating that by flying around without vision for any more than fractions of a second would be effective or safe...what I am saying, because it happens, is you CAN lose vision momentarily (aka...bumping the edge of vision loss) and still not be unconscious.
Another thought....Perhaps...and this is most likely the case...when I have experienced vision loss it may not have been right at the point of total loss....that can also explain why I havent funky chickened...LOL....
Crumpp I fly for a living and went back into the closet....I was biology major at the USAF Academy as well and I pulled out my Fundamentals of Aerospace Medicine book....to quote....
"In typical +G sub z exposure approaching a subject blackout tolerance, the individual will normally have clear vision for about 2 to 4 seconds after reaching peak G (onset rate = 1 G/sec), then peripheral vision will fail, with only a cone of central vision available for reading instruments. A second or so later this will fail, and total blackout will occur, In about 2 more seconds, vision will suddenly return as compensatory reflexes are initiated to cause an increase in head-level blood pressure and an rise in heart rate. From that point to the end of the G exposure, vision will remain clear. The G level at which these events occur is defined as a person's blackout threshold."
Now with all that being said...it is a FINE line...one that should not be pushed to the extreme. I think that we are talking about the same thing in but the nuances are slight.
Good reads in your post.....And I agree with everything that is said there...we get the same training and education everytime we do the Hyperbaric chamber.
On another note....cool you were at Torii Station? I used to get all my dive gear there!!! Were you with the 1st of the 1st? I miss the island alot! Especially the diving out there...not much of that here at Kirtland AFB I can tell you that!
Regards my friend....great debate here
:)
-
Hitech,
Let me clarify my position on the Current Model. It's a great base and with some minor changes could simulate the disorientation of flying at the edge for someone sitting at a computer better.
1. If a pilot stays in the Grey Zone - no change to the current model.
2. If a pilots takes it to the "all black" screen - The countdown to unconsciousness starts and a number of cumlative effects begin to happen.
First time - Pilot gets a "wounded pilot" head shake as soon as vision returns.
Subsequent times - Head shake AND control dampening with the period of dampening increasing the more times you enter the black.
IF Unconsciousness is reached the pilot has bought the 37 seconds of incapcitation. Some of it in total blackness and some it in the frustration of flying at whatever control input when consciousness was lost.
The "clock" gets reset by a set time of flying at 1 G regaining a pilots "composure".
Perk points could be spent in Tour of Duty representing Physical training, Anti-G position training, and the skill your pilot has to apply them. These would serve to lessen the effects.
Crumpp
-
Crumpp,
I would have to agree with you on the modeling....that would be a good feature for TOD...for the MA (CLASSIC)...I think HiTech would get a lot of complaints from folks that fly in the "black" realm.
I dont go 100% black in the game...just I guess force of habit of "that will kill you".....but I like your suggestion.
Regards:)
-
Yes,
I was with 1/1. Jason and Twins (Torii Locker), Gary Haglan (Kadena Locker) are all real good friends of mine. I taught diving in my off time through MWR. I loved Asia and Speak Vietnamese fluently. My regional orientation has changed, but I still miss that part of the world.
Yeah I think the current model has no real penalties for hitting the black excessively. Pilots should fly the Grey but strive not to hit the black. Real pilots do this and we should too.
Great discussion! Thanks for keeping me straight.
Crumpp
-
Originally posted by hitech
the funky chicken is modeld guttboy.
There are 2 modes of "Black out" modeled.
1. Where you don't see.
2. Where you are doing the funcky chicken.
Fatigue will build everytime you are fully blacked out "cant see".
Once a threshhold is reached you will be made uncionsious, the stick is automaticly released,the screen will still be black, and your current flight path is in a stick nutetral path.
HiTech
Great stuff Crumpp and guttboy !!!
I can testify to experiencing the "funky chicken" in AH I. Both times I was in a P-38 pulling massive multiple Gs.
I went into blackout, released the stick expecting to come out of it and oooooooh noooooo. I was in total blackout for what seemed like hours.
-
Great discussion Crumpp....I like it when the boards (and channel 1...LOL) stay good context and not trash talking.
I loved Kadena....I was with the 353rd SOG out there stationed with the 17th Special Operations Squadron flying MC130s....Flew AC130s before that at Hurlburt.
One of the things I miss the most is the people on Okinawa...they were some of the nicest people in the world. What was your favorite dive spot there.
I had a couple...I really liked Devils Cove...found some WWII ammunition that I have at home now (and it was close to the house and easy access through that little park when the surf was insane).
I had another we called "dead Cat Cut" because we found a dead cat on the walk down....it was on the north side of the peninsula that Bolo Pt was on. Deep dive good fish.
Finally my fav of all time spot is horseshoe beach just down the shore from Toilet bowl....GREAT corals fish and pretty quiet as far as other divers go!
I managed to log well over 100 dives a year with pulling tdy 220+ per year I was stationed there...VERY UNDERSTANDING WIFE!!!!
What you doing at Pope now?
Take care cya in the air...What country and callsign you use?
Regards:)
-
Man you are bring back some memories!! I loved Meida Point for first time divers. They loved the cave plus it was a great place to get students out of the water if things got rough. Also it was cool for students to be totally surrounded by that huge school of Angel fish that camped off the tower there in the summer.
My favourite ones where on the end of the island past Naha. We had "pipeline" and the very end of the island. Wicked currents but I almost always saw big sea life. Rays, Sharks, and sea turtles mostly with a few octopus's thrown in the mix.
Ie Shima Island was great too. My favourite place for Spear Fishing. Since I had a boat license for our 28 foot Boston Whaler, the command let us use it on the weekends. We just had to top it off before we brought it back to the Maritime Operations Facility.
I was on ODA 115 (Combat Diver) while in Oki. Yeah I miss the folks over there too.
I'm at Bragg now.
I fly LW under the nick "Crumpp" in AH mostly in the CT. Occasionally I'll show up as a "bish" in the MA. MA really isn't my cup of tea.
BTW - Great diving in my AO if you can get this way.
Take Care! If your still in the community I'll start stickin my head the cockpit askin "what do you think of the Pilot physiology model in AH?" LOL
Crumpp
-
Roger that Crumpp....yeah I miss Oki alot...so does the wife...she was a dental hygienist civilian contractor up at Camp Hansen.
Good to meet ya buddy and Ill be looking for ya!!!!
Regards,
Mike:)
-
Hitech,
Please review the data and comment. Thanks!
Crumpp
-
LOL!!! you guys amaze me !!!You make your point, HT looked at and told how it was set-up and that was that. You all seem to think this is a democratic set-up where if you debate the topic long enough you'll get enough votes and things will change to your liking. This and the debate over "channel 1" should or shouldn't turned back on are perfect exsamples.
This is HT's world and he has told you what his answer is. For what ever reason he is NOT going to change it. Maybe the code work is to much to make it happen right now, maybe they don't have the time due to the work load of re-doing the whole game and starting T.O.D., maybe he just wants to be a pain in your butt, who knows.
Live with it as it is, or leave. You made your suggestion, and it was shot down. Get over it, move along, HT I'm sure is very busy working on the game, just to get it up and running in AH2. Let it go !!! jeez !
-
He commented before the data was present and only said the model for AH2 was the same as AH1.
So move out and draw fire.
Crumpp
-
Don't be grumpy, Crumpy.
Originally your complaint centered on your misperception that the AH/AHII blackout model didn't actually feature a blackout. It does. Then you suggested tons of refinements that, while interesting and even somewhat appealing, shouldn't be on the top of the worry list. Why? Because the model actually does feature the blackouts you thought it didn't in the first place and your additional refinements are not actually neccesary. So now instead of it being an "issue that despirately needs addressing" it's become "wouldn't it be cool if ....".
It'd be cool if we had topless hula dancers on the beach. But if Pyro and HT make that a priority over adding a few more planes to fill out the historical batting roster ......
-
It'd be cool if we had topless hula dancers on the beach.
------------------------------------------------------
Don't forget the fully stocked bar
and aircraft washing hanger with covered
wax and detail pro shop
-
Thank you Arlo for explaining my thread to me! :rolleyes:
No in fact my original post was because thier NO PENALTY for crossing into the black except unless you do for an extended time reaching unconsciousness AND you can still fly the plane NO problem.
In real life it is not this way. Touching the " black" even though you are not physically unconscious is nevertheless a very disorientating experience. Real pilots avoid it and so should we.
Crumpp
-
Originally posted by Crumpp
Thank you Arlo for explaining my thread to me! :rolleyes:
No in fact my original post was because thier NO PENALTY for crossing into the black except unless you do for an extended time reaching unconsciousness AND you can still fly the plane NO problem.
In real life it is not this way. Touching the " black" even though you are not physically unconscious is nevertheless a very disorientating experience. Real pilots avoid it and so should we.
Crumpp
You're welcome. Now I'll explain something else as well. :rolleyes:
Yes there is a penalty. That penalty is your screen going black. Your screen going black is disorienting. Real pilots who have vision loss due to high gees but aren't unconscious retain the use of their hands. They are, however, blind. Being blind is disorienting. Being blind is actually a problem when flying a plane.
Your inability to understand that doesn't constitute a dire emergency that needs addressing on HiTech's part, IMO. But ... that's my opinion. :D
American Airline, Continental and Delta pilots most certainly are required and able to avoid GLOC. WWII fighter pilots .... not so much.
Again ... you're welcome. :aok
-
Arlo,
Thanks for your help!
Please go crawl back under your rock. Hey I think someone else is posting on the other side of the BB, hurry you can get in their thread too! (Wipe the chips off your stomach first though...)
Again thanks for your opinion. I'll wait for Hitech's reply to confirm he is aware of the medical data I submitted.
Buh-Bye!
Crumpp
-
Aw, did you get offended? I'm sure HT is gonna hop right in here and go "Gee, Crumpp ... all that expert knowledge you got from your visit to that AF flight surgeon has convinced me that the blackout model that already features both the disorientation and full unconsciousness you seem convinced it doesn't just ain't good enough! I'm instructing the staff to set aside what we assumed were more pressing development issues to implement your recommendations post haste."
Yep .... certain of it. :D
Carry on! :aok
-
LOL
Your a good troll, Arlo, a good troll!!
Thanks for your input :aok
Crumpp
-
You seem convinced at this point that the blackout model still needs addressing apparently based on:
1: You experimenting with a 9k dive in a P-51 ingame.
2: Hitech not having the headbob effect included to mimic recovering from complete unconsciousness (which he probably could ... yet he may just as well have added a few seconds of black screen).
3: Your visit to your friend the AF flight surgeon that told you that you can 'blackout' without losing consciousness. However you might as well be unconscious because your useful actions are very limited." Not unlike the limitations imposed on you when your screen is black - even if you avoid reaching the point of unconsciousness where the stick input goes neutral (as confirmed by HT himself).
Is this correct or do you wish to add something other than stating your perception of this challenge as being a troll? :)
-
LOL
Read the data Arlo...
:aok
-
And? :D
-
Crumpp, I realize you don't believe that pilot unconsciousness/neutral stick is part of the AH/AHII blackout model and that may be what's fueling this debate on your end. Here's a very short AHF that shows it is.
Me-262 - 400 mph on the deck. Right hand circle to induce blackout. I listened to the stall horn to know when I was unconscious and at that point went from a full stick back postition to a full stick left position. If I still had stick control the plane should have reacted accordingly. Consciousness returned about a second before impact. HT could have possibly modeled sound to fade out and added the head wobble but that would only be clues to the player that he's actually unconscious and is wasting his time playing with the stick.
http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/film8.ahf
That's the good news.
The bad news is that "x" does indeed appear to level off your craft when you're unconscious. In this next film I hit x as soon as the stall horn died and it leveled out the craft. The second and third attempts didn't reach the unconscious threshold. The fourth did and again x saved me .... and when I regained consciousness I executed an aileron roll to show it (and to guage the time of unconsciousness.
http://jollyrogers.info/CAG44/film10.ahf
I'm not sure if it was tweaked in AHII or not - haven't tested in there because I'd like to have a film to review (nope - filmviewer isn't opening AHII AHFs for me).
-
Ill fix the auto thing that was an oversight.
HiTech
-
Originally posted by hitech
Ill fix the auto thing that was an oversight.
WTG HT!
I think we'll be seeing a few more spitfires (easiest plane to blackout in) augering around here soon :D
-
Originally posted by hitech
Ill fix the auto thing that was an oversight.
HiTech
Well if it's no major thing. Personally, I think being unconscious and level while the other guy shoots me or unconscious and plowing into the ground are equally bad from the recipiant's end.
Stuka pilots will bring up the plane's ability to pull itself out of a dive probably.
I'm good either way.
But thanks still.
-
Arlo,
What makes the AH physiological model unrealistic is there is NO penalty for entering the black. You can fly for quite a long time totally blacked out AND in control. Any pilot in AH can fly in the black, do a 180 roll and reverse their turn. It is easy try it and check out your film.
Yes in real life pilots can enter the black and still control the plane. However it is extremely disorietating riding the grey zone for any length of time and real pilots will immediately back off if their vision goes totally black for even a split second. No fighter pilot rides the black like we can do in AH. Bottom line.
Since a computer sim limits us on our "disorientation" options then it becomes more realistic to ride the grey and never hit the black OR overcome the inherent advantages sitting at a computer gives us by placing penalties that escalate in severity each time you do.
Crumpp
-
If your looking for that disoriented feeling, go get your self a real plane and go do the funky chicken till you crash, ITS A GAME for crying out loud !!!
You want real life, go get one, as for a sim, I think HT and crew give a great game to play and enjoy ourselves.
-
Personally, I liked the Air Warrior Full Realism mode. Aces High is too forgiving. I'd like to see blackouts modeled aka Air Warrior FR.
I admit I would be in the minority. AW FR had 1/5th the players that AW Relaxed Realism had. But the best flew in FR!
-
Originally posted by Crumpp
Arlo,
What makes the AH physiological model unrealistic is there is NO penalty for entering the black. You can fly for quite a long time totally blacked out AND in control. Any pilot in AH can fly in the black, do a 180 roll and reverse their turn. It is easy try it and check out your film.
Yes in real life pilots can enter the black and still control the plane. However it is extremely disorietating riding the grey zone for any length of time and real pilots will immediately back off if their vision goes totally black for even a split second. No fighter pilot rides the black like we can do in AH. Bottom line.
Since a computer sim limits us on our "disorientation" options then it becomes more realistic to ride the grey and never hit the black OR overcome the inherent advantages sitting at a computer gives us by placing penalties that escalate in severity each time you do.
Crumpp
I tell ya what. You fly around me with a blacked out screen and we'll see exactly how oriented you are. ;)
-
Sure Arlo,
Right now I use hitting the black unrealistically to escape or get into an attacking position quite frequently. It's called gaming the game and it is common practice. I've turned my FW-190 though 90 degree turns with a roll reversal blacked out to escape a spit attack. Works like a charm. Just like hitting the "x" to autopilot....
Crumpp
-
You're K/D ratio vs the Spitfire doesn't look charmed. :D
-
Time Warner has been fixing my cable connection for the last three months. Before that Arlo I was back over in the Sandbox playing with my Extremist friends.
So I'm alittle out of practice.
:)
Crumpp
-
Have fixed a few over sights, and changed some values for the next AHII patch.
Values it used to take 5 secs of black out time to become unconsious. It will now take 3.
The 3 secs is not a messure of a single black out time but wrather a fatigue factor. It is accumlated when ever you are in full black out. It drains at the rate of 0.1 sec for every sec you are not blacked out.So if you accumlated 2 secs of black out it would take 20 secs to be back to square 1. With 5 secs of black out it used to drain at a rate of 0.25 secs per sec. Once unconsious you will remain so for 10 secs, that value has not changed.
Other fixed oversights, throttle, and auto pilot engaging are now disabled if you are unconsious from either wound or accumlated black out.
HiTech
-
WTG HiTech !
:aok
-
Originally posted by hitech
Have fixed a few over sights, and changed some values for the next AHII patch.
Values it used to take 5 secs of black out time to become unconsious. It will now take 3.
The 3 secs is not a messure of a single black out time but wrather a fatigue factor. It is accumlated when ever you are in full black out. It drains at the rate of 0.1 sec for every sec you are not blacked out.So if you accumlated 2 secs of black out it would take 20 secs to be back to square 1. With 5 secs of black out it used to drain at a rate of 0.25 secs per sec. Once unconsious you will remain so for 10 secs, that value has not changed.
Other fixed oversights, throttle, and auto pilot engaging are now disabled if you are unconsious from either wound or accumlated black out.
HiTech
That doesn't bode well for our hero!
i might actually have to learn to fly now:confused:
-
Originally posted by Crumpp
Time Warner has been fixing my cable connection for the last three months. Before that Arlo I was back over in the Sandbox playing with my Extremist friends.
So I'm alittle out of practice.
:)
Crumpp
It's not your skill so much as your misperception about how flying in a blacked out condition supposedly doesn't involve disorientation whatsoever. Even if you've learned to roll and come out of it on a consistant heading change you are still receiving no visual feedback during the maneuver. As a general rule, using blackouts in Aces High as a defensive tactic is dangerously flawed.
Remember when you voiced your curiousity in the CT one night about how someone was able to "follow" you and kill you when you were blacked out? Most everyone found it amusing and some of us responded with catch word/phrases without going into detail ("angle of attack", "velocity", "position". etc). It appeared you assumed that because you had blacked out so had your opponent.
Now you're campaigning for the blackout model to include additional penalties such as reduced stick function while not yet crossing the unconscious threshold. That isn't going to make things better/easier for you. It really wouldn't enhance the game at all.
Still, as a result of this thread, HT has adjusted both the time to unconsiousness threshold and has disabled the autopilot and throttle function for not only g-force unconsciousness but wound unconsciousness. In the first case it won't hurt skilled pilots much if any. In the second .... getting back wounded is gonna become a very rare thing indeed (unless we're able to hit the ap before we completely zzzzzzzzzzz and it stays on).
Now if only I had a first aid kit available in the cockpit. :D
-
oops wrong button. :D
-
Originally posted by hitech
Have fixed a few over sights, and changed some values for the next AHII patch.
Values it used to take 5 secs of black out time to become unconsious. It will now take 3.
The 3 secs is not a messure of a single black out time but wrather a fatigue factor. It is accumlated when ever you are in full black out. It drains at the rate of 0.1 sec for every sec you are not blacked out.So if you accumlated 2 secs of black out it would take 20 secs to be back to square 1. With 5 secs of black out it used to drain at a rate of 0.25 secs per sec. Once unconsious you will remain so for 10 secs, that value has not changed.
Other fixed oversights, throttle, and auto pilot engaging are now disabled if you are unconsious from either wound or accumlated black out.
HiTech
Nice HT !!! I like it ... I think.
This ought to prove to be interesting.
I am buying stock in cheese companys, cause the whine will be flowing like rivers when the masses run into this.
-
It all sounds good to me, the "cumulative" factor is what I was talking about early in this thread. But th milion dollar question is...
If autopilot is activated BEFORE the blackout begins does it stay engaged?
I would assume so, but you know what they say about ass-u-me'ing.
-
Just checked it out offline. It's a lot more realistic!
Thanks Again Hitech!
-
No I don't remember that Arlo. Sorry
Crumpp
-
That's ok. It's something I'd wanna forget too. NP tho. I find the new Blackout model fascinating. Seems this thread made a dramatic change to AH. I'm glad it was a simple and easy project. Now HT and company can go back to working on my SCW planeset. :D
-
I wonder if you get your "seconds" back after a while? Long flights back to base, rearm and return should give ample time for a fatigued pilot to regain his strength, should it not?
-
Yes you do Gsholz...
Hitech stated that you gain your "fatique factor" back at a rate of .1 seconds for every something or other...Ill quote and put below....
Originally posted by HiTech...
The 3 secs is not a messure of a single black out time but wrather a fatigue factor. It is accumlated when ever you are in full black out. It drains at the rate of 0.1 sec for every sec you are not blacked out.So if you accumlated 2 secs of black out it would take 20 secs to be back to square 1. With 5 secs of black out it used to drain at a rate of 0.25 secs per sec. Once unconsious you will remain so for 10 secs, that value has not changed.
There...now thats better! I have tried it...seems to be modeled as such without getting the stopwatch out!
Regards
:)
-
Hey Arlo,
Give me your address and I will send you some pacifiers. My 2 year old daughter doesn't need her's anymore. It will help ease the adjustment to your flying style.
Crumpp
-
Are you still typing? I'm sorry. :D
-
Originally posted by guttboy
There...now thats better! I have tried it...seems to be modeled as such without getting the stopwatch out!
Cool, thanks for clearing it up Gutboy! I missed HTs post.
I have to admit I was getting worried there, even though I was a proponent of the accumulation factor. I fly sorties that are over an hour long fairly often. I could see hitting the 3 second accumulation after only picking a few cherries :D
-
Originally posted by Edbert MOL
Cool, thanks for clearing it up Gutboy! I missed HTs post.
I fly sorties that are over an hour long fairly often. I could see hitting the 3 second accumulation after only picking a few cherries :D
ahh, another cherry-pickin alt monkey :p