Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: midnight Target on May 28, 2004, 07:03:32 PM
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Used to mean something. I was never a big race fan, but I knew it was a big deal when AJ Foyt won his 3rd 500. It was huge when he won his 4th. People would ask .. "Who won?" if they hadn't seen the race over the weekend. Even the Indy pace car was a big deal to the auto maker who was lucky enough to be chosen.
Swede Sabich went to a local High School. It was national news when he slammed into the wall and died. I bet most of you guys have heard of him. I wonder how many can name the last winner? I can't.
I read that this year there were not enough entries, and no one was bumped from the field for being too slow. Sad, the death of an American institution is upon us.
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True MT. I couldn't agree with you more. The sad fact is CART lost is scope of why it was there in the first place: competitive racing. F1 is such a freakshow of technology and eye-candy that it will never fade like CART did. The Indy car series broke off because of the declining quality of the competition. NASCAR may have it's detractors, and there is a lot about it I would change, but it's still the most exciting closed course oval racing out there.
RIP Indy 500, you were fun to watch...at one time.
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It was fun to watch when there was team innovation and development possible.
Used to be George Bignotti was an Indy star. He was the mechanic with the most wins. Hie George and he would get you a good chance, because he would get your car to be fast.
The formula now is "pick one of these few chassis' and one of these few engines, and use only these tires."
My dad once rented a shop next to someone who built a car to take back to Indy and qualifiy. A privately funded shoestring operation to build a one off car. That is not possible today.
If the formula of the 60's were as tight as it is today, Andy Granatelli's turbine cars and even Jimmy Clarke's Lotus Ford would not be allowed.
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Racing is exciting when the racers are not limited because of track or course liabilities. The whole idea of racing is all-out unlimited max performance. Anything that limits that limits the appeal of racing.
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How many of you guys actually watch the race? The racing is still as good as ever. They are still the fastest closed-circuit vehicles in the world. I wish it was still a CART show, but since TG allowed the CART guys to start running there again, it's been a great race.
As far as NASCAR... well McDonalds is more popular than filet mignon. NASCAR has done a great job of turning a lot of non-racing-fans into racing fans. A great marketing success, but great racing? I don't think so. They just took racing and dumbed it down enough so that Joe Sixpack could get into it.
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Anyone hear of Buddy Rice?
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
A great marketing success, but great racing? I don't think so. They just took racing and dumbed it down enough so that Joe Sixpack could get into it.
Yeah I know, I mean, actual LEAD changes, how can that be considered GOOD racing? And focusing on the driver rather than the technology? Please, gimme a break...everyone knows it's the car that wins the race.
All kidding aside if you watch NASCAR with blinders on too bad. I watch motorsports for one thing; competition. Something that CART and F1 can't say. Saying the audience is dumb IS dumb. Besides, McDonald's isn't the biggest fast food franchise in the world because they make a poor product that no one likes.
F1 has its' flavor, Indy Car has its' flavor, NASCAR has its' flavor, and so does WRC which is probably the best motorsport in the world IMHO. But I am a gearhead, my love for racing is not tinged by percieved notions fed by innuendo or cliches. The average NASCAR fan is no more a WalMart shopper than the average F1 fan is a Bruno-Magli wearing, Warsteiner drinking, West smoking, Givenchy shopping snob.
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Hey if you want competition go down to the local bullring and watch midgets and sprints. I'd take that over NASCAR any old day of the week. :)
I don't know if NASCAR fans are dumb. I do know that (based on the pure numbers) most of them are people who weren't watching racing 10 years ago. Having a bigger market share doesn't mean NASCAR is better, it just means they have a bigger market share. That's all I was trying to say.
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One guy wins the first 5 races, and only loses the sixth because he is a dumb****. Yeah, Buddy, that is racing.
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Me too, Funked, and I do.
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Originally posted by Lizking
One guy wins the first 5 races, and only loses the sixth because he is a dumb****. Yeah, Buddy, that is racing.
Good luck building that straw man Liz. ;)
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So you are saying that that dirver is that much better, or is his equipment that much better?
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
so does WRC which is probably the best motorsport in the world IMHO.
The funny thing is that David Richards has also greatly "dumbed down" WRC to get more market share. Hell I don't care, all I know is 5 years ago I couldn't get it on any channel, and now I get 4 or 5 hours of coverage for each rally. They also lucked out on the technical rules. Subaru, Peugeot, Citroen, and Ford are almost dead even right now. I think the rules are great, but considering how liberal they are, they are lucky to have four teams that close. I just hope Hyundai and Skoda come back and Mitsubishi will continue to develop their car.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Hey if you want competition go down to the local bullring and watch midgets and sprints.
I have done that from time to time. Those guys are great too.
Used to be a big NHRA fan until I realised it was only for those with a short attention span. :D
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Originally posted by Lizking
So you are saying that that dirver is that much better, or is his equipment that much better?
Me?
Which driver and which equipment?
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The strawman I am building.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
The funny thing is that David Richards has also greatly "dumbed down" WRC to get more market share. Hell I don't care, all I know is 5 years ago I couldn't get it on any channel, and now I get 4 or 5 hours of coverage for each rally. They also lucked out on the technical rules. Subaru, Peugeot, Citroen, and Ford are almost dead even right now. I think the rules are great, but considering how liberal they are, they are lucky to have four teams that close. I just hope Hyundai and Skoda come back and Mitsubishi will continue to develop their car.
Agreed. But some WRC is better than none. And it's still the most exciting in terms of what those drivers can do with those cars. I sweat just watching them!
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Originally posted by Lizking
The strawman I am building.
That's the spirit!!!!
I think F-1 is f'ed up. What I'd like to see the FIA do is put them in cars with spec bodywork with no wings. Just enough downforce to keep them on the track at 220+. That would bring back passing in corners. Make them use spec fuel and put a cap on fuel consumption. That keeps power and speed under control. Skinny tires, to make the braking zones longer, again making passing easier to judge. Make every single other aspect of the formula completely free.
Or they could have a similar formula with identical (spec) cars, and call that the Driver's Championship.
For the Manufacturer's Championship, have the cars be autonomous robots. Then you can toss out all the stupid safety rules and have a totally free formula. And as a side benefit you get a lot of guidance and control and AI research that transfers directly to road cars. Can you imagine 3000 hp cars weighing about 750 lb, with ground effects, huge sticky tires, active suspension, active aerodynamics, active diffs, abs, traction control, etc. It would be totally badass. Then you would have a true Mfrs. Championship. Engineer vs. Engineer.
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YAWN....
I lived in NC for a few years, not too far from a major Nascar owner's engine shop... and I must say.... damn, they had som einteresting things going on in there, so interesting that when I left, they were being certified to work on Rolls-Royce Merlins...
Nascar to me is boring (except the non-lethal crashes), but the technology they work with and create is amazing.
FYI, I am an aero engineer and am certified with the FAA.
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The Indy 500 was killed by greed. The current owners of the track (who's name escapes me) decided they wanted more money so they formed the Indy Racing League. This forced drivers to make a decision. To race in the Indy 500 they MUST be members of IRL. At the time most of the top drivers stayed with CART which was a bigger circuit with larger purses. Non IRL drivers were banned from running Indy for several years.
After a time some big name drivers started to migrate from CART to IRL. This only hurt both. Indy had already been struggling and became a full blown sham after the Texas race in 2000 when they named the wrong driver the winner of the race. IRL lost it's engine provider (Oldsmobile), CART went thru major financial problems and now both circuits are a shadow of the former unified sanctioning body.
While all this was going on NASCAR expanded with a new TV deal, new tracks, new sponsors and became the most attractive venue for drivers... Tony Stewart, Kasey Kane and Jeff Gordon among them.
It's sad that the need for greed outweighed the need for speed.
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I thought the split was about saving money, not making it. The IRL was formed to reduce expenses?
Not Robots, but remotely controlled vehicles, Funked.
Have you ever done slot cars? They have carried the aero design, if not the suspension engineering, to the endpoint. They will stick better than the best motor can make them run.
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I'm pretty sure an autonomous vehicle would be faster than with a human operator.
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Shhheeit, they couldn't get slow ones to run a course, how you gonna do it with fast ones?
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The slow ones were going cross country, different ball game. On a closed circuit with painted kerbs and lines, they should dominate humans. Traffic might be hard for them though.
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It would be for time, anyway, traffic isn't a problem.
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Naaa, get them out there together and let them deal with it. With no drivers, the more crashes the better. FIRE!!!!
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Originally posted by Lizking
I thought the split was about saving money, not making it. The IRL was formed to reduce expenses?
That was a PR campaign to attract car owners and a fan base. Tony George formed the IRL in 1994 after becoming CEO of Indianapolis Motor Speedway in 1990. He had publicly stated that CART was making too much money from the Indy 500 and wanted a bigger cut. CART said no, so he formed the IRL with a whopping 5 race schedule based around the Indy 500.
Another move to make money was to invite NASCAR to Indy in '94. Smart move. Many speculated that The Brickyard 400 was what kept the fledgling IRL alive, giving George much needed funds to operate for several years.
HERE (http://www.indymotorspeedway.com/95letter.htm) is a copy of a 1995 press release from George. You can see from it he took quite a bit of heat for his actions. Personally I think the guy is scum. He gutted the Indy 500.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Joe Sixpack
LOL :D
Slack Jawed Yokel
(http://www.geocities.com/TelevisionCity/Set/6060/bio.gif)
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Originally posted by Bodhi
the technology they work with and create is amazing.
Pushrod V8's with carburetors... I wouldn't call that amazing.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
Warsteiner drinking, .
hey I drink Warsteiner, and I hate F1. Stick Schuemacher in a Minardi and see how good he is.
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Yep too bad the Indy 500 has lost some of its appeal within the American racing world. Well with its tradition, theres always hope that it will once again be the biggest auto race in the world along with 24 hours of Le-mans and Monaco.
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Originally posted by NUKE
Anyone hear of Buddy Rice?
:aok
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Originally posted by Pooh21
hey I drink Warsteiner
........Blaaaa!!!, Radeberger, WRC, LES (the return of the 1000k races) and FIA GT.
that's where it's at.
Bring back CanAm-Interserie, Schumacher wouldn't have enough "Pimmel" to drive one of them.
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Originally posted by mora
Pushrod V8's with carburetors... I wouldn't call that amazing.
Over 2 horsepower per cubic inch, with a carb (one), two valves per cylinder, one cam (in the block, without roller lifters), and no electronics other than a high energy ignition. Less than 10,000 RPM.
You try it.
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Originally posted by rpm371
The Indy 500 was killed by greed. The current owners of the track (who's name escapes me) decided they wanted more money so they formed the Indy Racing League. This forced drivers to make a decision. To race in the Indy 500 they MUST be members of IRL. At the time most of the top drivers stayed with CART which was a bigger circuit with larger purses. Non IRL drivers were banned from running Indy for several years.
After a time some big name drivers started to migrate from CART to IRL. This only hurt both. Indy had already been struggling and became a full blown sham after the Texas race in 2000 when they named the wrong driver the winner of the race. IRL lost it's engine provider (Oldsmobile), CART went thru major financial problems and now both circuits are a shadow of the former unified sanctioning body.
While all this was going on NASCAR expanded with a new TV deal, new tracks, new sponsors and became the most attractive venue for drivers... Tony Stewart, Kasey Kane and Jeff Gordon among them.
It's sad that the need for greed outweighed the need for speed.
You neglect to mention that it was the greed of Roger Penske (one of the great scumbag liars and frauds of racing) that formed CART to begin with.
Or that the formation of CART began the downfall of the Indy 500.
Penske formed CART because USAC wasn't kissing his prettythang and making him enough millions.
No, the greed began long before Tony George became involved.
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Originally posted by mora
Pushrod V8's with carburetors... I wouldn't call that amazing.
With all the restrictions they have,they still pull 800 HP out of naturally aspirated 350 small blocks.That's impressive.
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M.Schumacher is a great driver.....his only known difficulty is passing other cars.....
he has a tendency to crash into them...:rofl
no wonder F1 has a NO PASSING CARS LAW...
anyways...F1 cars are so fragile that if you sneeze near 1 you'll most likely make it flip over
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Originally posted by Pooh21
hey I drink Warsteiner, and I hate F1. Stick Schuemacher in a Minardi and see how good he is.
Shumacher was winning Championships with Benetton when they were no where near the best team. The first few wins with Ferrari he wasn't in the best car in the field. He may be an arrogant, ruthless son-of-a-b*tch but he is by far the best racing driver out there. What you are seeing right now is the by far the best driver in by far the best car. Would he win in a Minardi? No, but he might very well win if you put him in a Williams or a Renault.
Having said that it has been a quiet interesting year behind the front 2 with Renault and BAR Honda pushing out Williams and MacLaren.
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Real racing: ALMS. Mid-Ohio event scheduled for June 26-27. 4 types of cars, on the same track, at the same time. Yowza! :eek:
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Originally posted by NUKE
Anyone hear of Buddy Rice?
David Letterman did and kudos to him for his team's win. A genuine "niceguy" in a tough business!
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Salt Walther 1973 after the green flag the carts collided taking out 13 carts and the scene of parts flying in the crowd was just scary...The best of times and the worst of times..
I watched the Unser/Rutherford wins but when the league changed I haven't watched it since
IKON
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If you you took Shumacher out of the field you would have very interesting races to be sure, he just dominates the other drivers. He has a superb driving talent, gotta agree with Pei's arguement.
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If you took Schumacher out of the Ferrari you would have some interesting races as well.
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I really think shumy would still be a champion in a Honda, renault, or BMW, he really is and excellent driver and he has been a champion without ferrari.
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Originally posted by narsus
I really think shumy would still be a champion in a Honda, renault, or BMW, he really is and excellent driver and he has been a champion without ferrari.
he still doesn't know how to pass other cars WITHOUT crashing into them:rofl
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He is good, but he still hasn't learned about "stinkin up de joint".