Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Eksel on June 02, 2001, 12:04:00 PM
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I was wondering if any of you knew the numbers of ww2 era figthters that exist today? Does it vary by country or what?
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Well there was a P-51 gathering in Kissamee, Fl in 1999 and about 70 P-51 Mustangs from around North America showed up. I understand there are about 70 Spitfires (flyable) in the world with about 15-20 more in restoration. There are a good number of F4Us. Not too any P-38s or P-47s. Very few Me109s and FW190s.
Quite a few bombers from what I hear.
Regardless of how many there are, it is never enough. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Last I heard there were still less than 40 Spits, but more are becoming flyable each year.
There are very few Axis aircraft, particularly Japanese. There is one A6M5 that still flys using its proper Sakae 21 engine. There are one or two more Zeros flying, but they use Wasps for their powerplant.
Bomber wise, there are 2 Lancasters, no Mosquitos, very few B-24s, maybe only 1, about 10 B-17s.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
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Cool. I was just wondering since I saw Pearl Harbor...I was fooled by those planes..NOOOO
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Actually Eksel, several real warbirds were used for the making of the movie. I saw something on the history channel about it. There were 3 zeros, 4 p-40s, and a couple of vals and kates. Either the vals or the kates were replicas, but the rest were real.
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There is a Ventura (PV-1...IIRC) being rebuilt in a hangar across the airfield from us at work. We have a couple of guys working on redoing the wings right now. They got a little bent when the plane ditched. (I think it ran out of fuel) It's kinda neat watching the thing go together, although it has been a years long project...with a few more to go. It is in surprisingly good shape, very little exfoliation though the center wingbox is a little corroded from sitting on the ground for so long. And most of the titanium and magnesium fasteners will have to be changed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So, hopefully, in a few more years, another warbird will be flying and keeping the memories alive. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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griz
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Every Japanese plane in Pearl Harbor were replicas, the Tora Tora Tora group.
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The Confederate Air Force has a few.
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When you replicate the airplane you just replicate the parts?
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Most replicas are other types of aircraft that are modified to resemble the particular aircraft being replicated.
There are some Zeros being built in Washington, some Me262s in Texas, some Spitfires in the United Kingdom and some Fw190s in Germany. These are being built from the ground up with parts tooled to originaly specifications. The engines may be different, the Zeros will, for example, be using Wasps instead of Sakae 21s, but the structures are correct and done on original plans.
EDIT: Oh yes, there is also a Mosquito being built in New Zealand. The Mosquito is halfway between a restoration and a new plane built to the old plans.
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We few, we happy few, we band of brothers;
For he to-day that sheds his blood with me
Shall be my brother
Bring the Mosquito FB.MkVI Series 2 to Aces High!!!
Sisu
-Karnak
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 06-03-2001).]
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Often that's just what has to happen... if someone needs a strut or gear door for a Zeke you can't order it from JCWhitney. In many cases the folks that actually built these planes; old farts 80 years old, set up a machine shop around the restoration and create from scratch the necessary parts.
It's a long; incredibly expensive project; with most of the skills; knowledge and plans long since extinct.. Here on Long Island theres a group of Grumman people that do just as I described... rebuilding old Grumman's. It's a labor of love.. and tears and aggravation... but when it flies again; it's a wonder to see and hear. God bless those guys; every one.
(http://www.cradleofaviation.org/0401Northrop%20Grumman%20Restoration%20crew.jpg)
That's an F4F Wildcat in the background, and in the foreground, the Grumman restoration crew. These guys do this unpaid, and unasked and with great skill.
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 06-03-2001).]
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It was my understanding that the Chino Planes of Fame museum in Chino Airfield near L.A. has the worlds ONLY flying Japanese Zero. They did fly it out to film Pearl Harbor along with several other planes.
It landed at the Marana Northwest Regional Airport (E14) Out side of Tucson AZ. to fuel both ways. Darnint I missed seeing it.
Mav
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Regarding bombers.... only remaining flightworthy B-24 is "The Dragon and His Tail", which luckily enough came to our local airport. BERSERKR and I got to do a walk through tour, and it was in pristine condition. I have pics, but unfortunately haven't developed them yet. If I get ambitious soon I will get them done and post a couple. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Skorpyon
~900th Bloody Jaguars~
"Feel the Sting......"
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yea, that would be swell. Man, in the Seattle area nothing like that EVER happens... I heard the confederate airforce had a few old warbirds...but never come to seattle
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You gotta check out the Pensacola Naval Air station Museum, several grumman, an A6M, P40, N1K, etc...
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its quite a drive to florida...im in seattle
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FYI, Guys, there are actually quite a few WW2 aircraft that are flying today. I am not speaking from the hip on this, I work in this industry (warbirds) full time. Last year at the Mustang meet at the Kissimmee, FL Airport, Stallion 51 corp hosted it, and just under 70 showed up. It was awe inspiring to say the least. The furthest one came from Mexico City. As for B-24's, there is more than one, Collings Foundation owns and operates "Dragon and his Tail", formerly "All American", and it was rebuilt at Tom Reilly's Vintage Aircraft of Kissimmee, FL. Their is also another B-24, "Diamond Lil" flying and I believe one other, with 2 in the works. As for B-25's there are roughly 40-50 in operation with some absolute gorgeous examples out there. Last I heard, there were roughly 200 flying mustangs with more surfacing every year. There are also roughly 25ish Corsairs flying, and a number of projects out there. The # of flying 38's is in big question, last I saw it was 2, with Glacier Girl soon to be flying when they sort out the ownership issue, and 2 more too be built at Reilly's in Kissimmee over the next 6 years. Unfortunately, the 262's in TX are in some litigation issue, no flight in sight last I heard. There is a number of FW restorations in the US, one, an actual combat veteran being built in Kissimmee at Reilly's as well. As for SNJ's / T-6's, there are roughly 600 in the US, and more abroad. They are a blast to fly, I have about 30 hours in them. B-17's is a fluctuating number too. There are 3 under restoration in Kissimmee at Reilly's another near Portland with Weiss aircraft, and that was all I heard of, but it would not surprise me if more are being built. Thats what I can think of off the top of my head. As for the zekes in PH, 2 or 3 were built from scratch for the movie, and the rest were replicas. Converted Texans and the like.
The issue over whether an aircraft is a replica or real is rather tough to decide. When we rebuild aircraft, obviously parts have to be refabricated. We try to use original if at all possible, but if it becomes a safety issue, we use newly formed. Unfortunately, there are nowhere near the parts needed to replicate Japanese WW2 aircraft, so if they are to fly, they must be replicated. To be a stickler, you can claim them as replicas, but when they are to the same specs, they should be considered real IMHO. Anyways, thats all I have time for tonight, hope you can all take the time to see these living legends. And come down to Tom Reilly's Vinatage Aircraft (aka The Warbird Museum) and say Hi! Would love to see you. And btw, yes, you can ask for Bodhi, I am there M-F 8ish to 5.
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Originally posted by Bodhi:
To be a stickler, you can claim them as replicas, but when they are to the same specs, they should be considered real IMHO. B]
Yes, Bodhi...I agree. I fabricate parts as "per sample" all the time for Boeing and Lockheed aircraft and they're not considered replicas, I'm sure. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I would consider a replica to be more like a 2/3 or 3/4 scale P-51 etc. etc.
Anyway, if I ever get down to Florida...I'll take you up on that visit to the museum. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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griz
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There was a guy in AW, waaaay back in late 80s early 90s- his CPID was Phoenix (he was on HT's Squad-FUBARS), who owned a P-38 along with some other Warbirds... I know this is old info but may help shed some light on the P-38 issue.
The fact that the number of flying WWII Warbirds is increasing is a GREAT thing. To have the opportunity to preserve a piece of history and NOT take advantage of it, is wrong.
Ain't no sound on the planet quite like a big old P&W R2800 radial or a Merlin at full chat. Gives me goose bumps!
Damned Augie
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Are there any flying Me-262's? Very interesting plane.
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at last an interesting post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Okay - the Stormbirds project, which is building rivet for rivet reconstructions of Me-262's is now located in the Seattle area (moved from Texas). The first one should be flying this summer.
Eksel, you have to get up to the Arlington Fly-in. They have warbirds there every year.
I have been on a B-29 restoration project for the last three years and there is always something happening at the Museum of Flight. The Collins Collection's B-17 and B-24 were here last fall (you could get a ride if you wanted), as was the Silver Lady (the Vickers Vimy). Two weeks ago the Flying Tigers were in town and they had a Zero replica and a beautiful P-40N come by. The P-40 put on a great show.
As for flying warbirds in general, there are lots of P-51's, and a fair number of spits, but I believe there are six P-38's, four P-63's, about a dozen P-47's (they are being rescued from South America), NO Bf-109's with Daimler engines (there are a bunch of post-war Spanish built CASA's with Merlins), two He-111's, NO Martin B-26's left, something like 15 P-40's. I have a list somewhere that's about a year out of date - I'll try to dig it up and post it.
Yoj
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FYI Yoj, there are 2 109's flying with authentic engines to type. One that ground looped last year in Europe, and one based out of Lauderdale.
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What I can add:
I know there was a fully restored and flight ready 109G-10 with a DB605 for sale out of Germany not too long ago (not Black-6, which is grounded). I thought as well that one of the old Merlin 'Buchons' (sic) was rebuilt as an Emil with a DB601 in California not too long ago.
I also think that the flight ready 190 Dora from the Champlain (?) museum was still on the block.
There one less P-63, after the unfortunate Biggin Hill tragedy last week.
Kermit Weeks has a fully restored B-26 that he flies regularly. It was profiled in a recent Speedvision program about his Fantasy of Flight museum. He also has what is probably the most original B-24 around as well. It came from India and still has the original turbo-superchargers slung under the motors.
I went to the Airshow at Lakehurst NJ yesterday, and they did a Pearl Harbor re-enanctment and they had the CAF 'psudeo' Jap squadron there. A coupla of Vals, repli-Zeros and 2 or 3 of the Kate torpedo bombers (which looked very authentic) blowing stuff up, and being chased around by Jeff Clymans P-40E. Great fun to watch, and now I don't have to sit through 3 hours of PH to see them.
Lugnut
[This message has been edited by Lugnut (edited 06-04-2001).]
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FYI,
All aircraft of that vintage generally carry the original chargers in them, whether they work or not. The simple reason for this, is they were not made after the war. And as for Weeks having the only authentic 26, that is correct, as it is the ONLY B-26 still flying after the CAF lost theirs.
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
You gotta check out the Pensacola Naval Air station Museum, several grumman, an A6M, P40, N1K, etc...
Uhmm, ammo, do you live here too???
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I got to visit the Stormbirds hangar last summer, it was fantastic! They had the remains of the original ME262 that they are using as their template there as well, the fuselage was still intact, with the 30mm cannon still in the nose (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) They had one of its original Jumo engines as well, it was still in good condition and they said that for fun they would attach a power drill to the turbine shaft and rev it up to recreate the original sound of the engines (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) FYI, they aren't trying to recreate the original engines for flight, but are sticking small modern learjet engines inside the Jumo housings. They have to build in a thrust/throttle limiter as well because the modern engines are too powerful (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I also got to sit in the cockpit of one of the replicas, they are beautiful machines with roomy cockpits and superb visibility, they must have been a joy to fly.
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Originally posted by Bodhi:
FYI Yoj, there are 2 109's flying with authentic engines to type. One that ground looped last year in Europe, and one based out of Lauderdale.
Good to hear it. I didn't know of the one in FL (is it a recent restoration?) and when they wrecked the one in Europe they said it was too badly damaged to be safely repaired. Of course, where there is a will (and enough money)....
Yoj
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BTW Gargoyle - I believe the original 262 (the "template" aircraft) is now fully restored and ready for static display. I understand its going back to Germany.
Also - the other non-original change in the new 262's is a redesign of the nose gear. The original was always a weakness for the plane, so it has been strengthened.
I can keep up on the project because one of my co-organizers of AWCon 2001 is working on the project. A tour of the facilities and possible test flight are features of the Con (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Yoj
[This message has been edited by Yoj (edited 06-04-2001).]
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Originally posted by Skorpyon:
Regarding bombers.... only remaining flightworthy B-24 is "The Dragon and His Tail",
Actually..... "Diamond Lil" is around also and is also still flying.
By the way, isn't the CAF's B-29 still flying also?
I start my volunteer career at the flight museum in Galveston on June 18th....really looking forward to it.
[This message has been edited by sling322 (edited 06-04-2001).]
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hey Yoj, so what exactly IS in Seattle now?
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I am in the process of restoring a small, 3-seat observation plane, a Stinson 10A. It was built May 1941, months before Pearl Harbor. 20 of them served with the Army Air Corps as observation aircraft. Mine served the C.A.P. in Florida, and it basically went out looking for U-Boats, so it is technically a WWII vet. Some 10A's were armed with 100lb bombs to disable U-Boats until other forces could arrive. It is powered by a 90hp Franklin engine. (L-4 cubs only had 65)
I have stripped the old fabric off of it and have begin cleaning and re-priming the airframe. I have a long way to go, since I need to make new formers and stringers for it. I have set up a resourcs page for the 10A since there was so little on the net about it. You can see it here: http://www.i-star.com/users/markvz/Stin10AR.html (http://www.i-star.com/users/markvz/Stin10AR.html)
This is what I'm hoping mine will look like in a few years:
(http://www.i-star.com/users/markvz/L92.jpg)
That one currently has it's upper cowling removed.
It's a big project for me, but it's slowly getting there.
Mark VanZwoll
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Uh...whats up with the chicken on the wing...is that a chicken?
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It's a pitot tube cover (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
The pitot tube is what makes the airspeed indicator work.
As far as I can tell, one of these also circled above Dunquirk (sp) during the evacuation.
Mark VanZwoll
[This message has been edited by MarkVZ (edited 06-04-2001).]
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When I was at Tom Reilly's Warbird Restoration Museum back in late April he had 2 B-17's (One is under restoration and fuselage and wings were almost done with the engines away being rebuilt.) The second one is Kermit Weeks that was moved around a bit in Hurricane Andrew a few years back. The wings are off and it is the one that they use for templates on the internal ribs and spars for the ones they restore.
They have a flyable B-25, a A-26 Invader (due to undergo restoration late this year/early next year.), several T6 trainers, ONE Fw-190F8 with engine already rebuilt and remaining wing work and fuselage/cockpit work to be done and a F4U-4 or 1D Corsair under long term restoration. If you pay to do the restoration school there you work on that plane and get a ride in the B-25 at the end of the week.
Also they have a P-38 that needs ALLOT of work as it is in a large pile right now. They are asking for a "sponsorship" fee of 1 or 2 million dollars (US) to get it started. Right now no one owns the plane and it will be the only one flying if they get it restored.
Also he has an Voodoo navy recon plane, Harrier, F-100, F-4D Phantom and a few helicopters from the 50's and 60's that they are going to be working on soon. I have some pictures but my scanner is freaking out and I can't get them to scan right.
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ObstLt. Reschke
2/LJK Staffelkapitan
Kommandeur Jagdbomber
LuftJagerKorps (http://www.luftjagerkorps.com)
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I visited the Kissimee Warbird Museum many years ago and saw a crashed P38 they were going to "restore". It was laid out on the floor in the shape of a P38- but no piece of metal looked bigger than about 6 inches. It just looked like a pile of shredder output. When a warbird is "restored" how much of the end result is actual metal from the original WWII era plane and how much is machined to original specs? I would suspect that no portion of that "P38" could actually be used in a flyable (and safe) aircraft. How do warbird restorers differentiate between a restoration and a replica?